Urgh, this is what I hate about, it is the only site in existence where a perfectly good spam thread can be misused for high quality discussions.  I hate you all.

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Messages - Telarus

Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: Spagbook
March 24, 2019, 06:03:25 PM
Going back through some old photos (see pics thread), I ran into this:

Successful Discordian Propaganda (it turned some "passive consumers" into active participants/conspirators).

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 22, 2019, 05:04:06 AM
Secret Decoder Rings???!??  I wanna collect the WHOLE SET.

"All models are wrong, but some are useful."
  --George Box

Collect as many models as you need, and use the best one for the current situation.  They don't have to be mutually consistent.

THIS. If you are not concerned about how "right" your model is, but only how "useful" the model you are currently using is for the current situation, then it is your tool (instead of you being the TOOL for the B.S.).

Really good thread. Not sure how to apply the above to the problem Cram points out, as the crux of the problem is that the models the groups under discussion use have built in "this model is more right than mainstream models" built in...
Holyshit spags. I'm 38 years old today.

Thank you, Eris, for giving me the Strife I could handle for the past 38 years (and none of that apocalypse-now level shit).


That brought things re: Brexit into a whole new focus for me. Thanks!
Principia Discussion / Re: Explaining Ourselves
March 20, 2019, 08:53:22 PM
What we are talking about is the mind's ability to "abstract" (in the Korzybskian sense), that is to create a symbol and collect meaning for it based on experienced context.

The symbol exists, in the mind(s). The things we use it to refer to exist in physical reality (mostly). Here's the rub...


Well, no. We didn't leave the actual 'symbol' there, just a bunch of scratches on the rock which trigger the symbol to re-manifest into the mind of any viewer that has had previous contextual experiences with that symbol.

A physical chair is both something we have crafted for a specific purpose, and an inherent trigger of the symbol we used as the model to craft it. My silat guru likes to theorize that the original "stone handaxe" might have been an attempt to copy the Pattern of a mega-white shark tooth found on the beach (we have been semi aquatic apes through most of our existence). But once the symbol has been passed down a few generations and people start crafting things like this "archetype hand axe" (i.e. a perfect tool-form that has NO SIGNS OF WEAR), then the symbol has evolved from "my stone shark tooth" to something else entirely. It has gained life beyond a single individual's mind.

Symbols have "historical momentum" in this way, and we have to navigate our own personal jungle of direct-experiental-context and passed-to-us-from-the-historical-momentum-context for every symbol we use.

Your ego is a symbol for the "story" you tell yourself about yourself.

The "you" sitting there now is not the "you" that was there when you opened the browser tab. It just calls itself "me" also.

(Good being back around people who actually talk about this stuff.)
*Edit: found a good link:
Principia Discussion / Re: Explaining Ourselves
March 20, 2019, 08:41:30 PM
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 01:50:33 PM
The article doesn't claim physical reality doesn't exist. You're still sitting on something, but it's your mind that created the category of "chair", and placed that collection of molecules into that category.

Cram once told a story about a zen master who held something up to his student. "What is this?" he asked.

The student looked it over thoughfully. "It is a pen." the student finally answered.

The zen master looked at the student. "I scratch my balls with it." the master said.

I have used the "ideal Chair"/chair paradox in my own practice. My final mantra is


Thanks for the updates, Cain.
It was announced today that all MySpace media content uploaded before 2016 is GONE. Supposedly due to a "server migration error", some notable internet-spags speculate a cost-dumping scheme to no longer pay hosting for 53 million songs from 14.2 million artists.

There are no backups. There is no requesting to download your data. GONE. Electronic static. Entropy spitting in the face of "The internet means forever" and flicking its balls. Apparently this happened LAST YEAR and it has taken this long for pressure from users to force the truth out.

Think about that a second.  Did you have a MySpace account at one distant time? Did you just forget the password and abandon it?


In 2016 all text content (including all wall posts between users) older than a certain date was also deleted "accidentally". This "reboot" caused every musician on the site to have to manually rebuild their communities from (I suppose) old distribution lists.

The internet archivists interviewed by the Loyal Order of Floating Librarions of Mu are PISSED. I mean, these are the guys that recovered GeoCities! And they can do noting. If you've been watching the Magicians tv series, you hve some idea how dangerous a librarian with nothing to loose is.

End of an era. Give me a drink.
Or Kill Me / Re: The Holy Rage
March 19, 2019, 01:39:42 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 18, 2019, 04:10:35 AM
Quote from: Telarus on March 17, 2019, 10:38:43 PM

nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.


Mahalo (thanks).
Or Kill Me / Re: The Holy Rage
March 17, 2019, 10:38:43 PM
I both agree and disagree with everyone.  :evil: :fnord:

nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.

But I think he and Joseph are cross-talking slightly. My silat style trains the old animal forms, so I let the monkey out when alone to train with it.

Let us shift metaphors to one my teacher uses.

nullified is talking about the tiger, who needs no other reason to kill you than you are on his forest trail. It cares not that you are armed or what you are holding or doing and intends to knock your distracted ass down and kill you and consume what it wants of you.

Joseph is talking about the tigress, cornered in the bamboo grove with cubs behind her. She cares not what you are armed with but she will die before letting you get past her to the little ones.

That is why Shiva/Bacchus/Hanuman always has to learn the secrets of the universe from Kali/Eris(Rhea)/Guanyin before he can tackle the chaos of his previous bungling.
Very welcome.  :fnord:

Bacchus' cult of Eris invented the tambourine.

[ Shades of Joy - The Desert is a Circle | 1970, Music of El Topo ,O.S.T. ]


:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Whoa, I didn't know about Rene Daumal, thanks Cram!

On the "soma lives in the mountain" reference:

"Enyalius" is the "name of a deity" that translates to "Son of Enyo". It is actually a title bestowed on those who Enyo/Rhea gives HER secrets.

While most commonly found referring to Ares, in Myceanean times he was a separate deity - or an aspect of Dionysus, who is the other god that holds this title. Dionysus is also one of the only Greek gods shown driving a chariot pulled by cats, and this is a DEEP erisian motif that we find in depictions of Eris/Enyo/Rhea/Freya, etc.

In the below passages, the things to note are repeated references to "Rhea's milk" and the "mixing of wine":

"The grapegrowing land of Bakkhos, where the vinegod first mixed wine for Mother Rheia in a brimming cup, and named the city Kerassai, the Mixings [in Lydia]."

DO YOU MIX MODERN WINE? No. But if you are initiated into Enyo's Secrets, you know what to mix into it. Same thing you mix into milk to get "bhang", and into water with crushed ephedra twigs to get "soma". ;)


A scholiast on Homer declares that the poet Alcman sometimes identified Ares with Enyalius and sometimes differentiated him, and that Enyalius was sometimes made the son of Ares by Enyo and sometimes the son of Cronus and Rhea.


Euripides implies that Dionysos' was mentored by the great Phrygian mother-goddess Kybele in the rites of the orgia.

Euripides, Bacchae 45 ff (trans. Buckley) (Greek tragedy C5th B.C.) :
"[Dionysos :] 'You women who have left Tmolos, the bulwark of Lydia, my sacred band [of Bakkhai], whom I have brought from among the barbarians as assistants and companions to me, take your drums, native instruments of the city of the Phrygians, the invention of mother Rhea and myself."

Euripides, Bacchae 70 ff :
"Chorus of Bakkhai : From the land of Asia, having left sacred Tmolos, I am swift to perform for Bromios . . . celebrating the god Bakkhos . . . Blessed is he who, being fortunate and knowing the rites of the gods . . . and who, revering the mysteries of great mother Kybele, brandishing the thyrsos, garlanded with ivy, serves Dionysos."

Euripides, Bacchae 120 ff :
"The Korybantes [of Kybele] with triple helmet invented for me in their caves this circle [the castanet], covered with stretched hide; and in their excited revelry they mingled it with the sweet-voiced breath of Phrygian pipes and handed it over to mother Rhea, resounding with the sweet songs of the Bakkhai; nearby, raving Satyroi were fulfilling the rites of the mother goddess, and they joined it to the dances of the biennial festivals (trieteris), in which Dionysos rejoices."

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 29 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"He [Dionysos in his youth] went to Kybela [Rhea] in Phrygia. There he was purified by Rhea [of the madness inflicted upon him by Hera] and taught the mystic rites of initiation, after which he received from her his gear and set out eagerly through Thrake." [N.B. Apollodorus is probably summarising the account of Euripides.]

The geographer Strabo also says that Dionysos received the rites of the Orgia from Kybele quoting both Pindar and Euripides, Bacchae.

Strabo, Geography 10. 3. 13 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"When Pindaros, in the dithyramb which begins with these words, 'In earlier times there marched the lay of the dithyrambs long drawn out,' mentions the hymns sung in honor of Dionysos, both the ancient and the later ones, and then, passing on from these, says, 'To perform the prelude in thy honor, Megale Meter (Great Mother), the whirling of cymbals is at hand, and among them, also, the clanging of castanets, and the torch that blazeth beneath the tawny pine-trees,' he bears witness to the common relationship between the rites exhibited in the worship of Dionysos among the Greeks and those in the worship of the Meter Theon (Mother of the Gods) [Kybele] among the Phrygians, for he makes these rites closely akin to one another.
And Euripides does likewise, in his Bakkhai, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity : 'But ye who left Mt. Tmolos, fortress of Lydia, revel-band of mine [Dionysos], women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions, uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea.'
And again, 'happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, [text missing] who, preserving the righteous Orgia (Orgies) of the great mother Kybele, and brandishing the thyrsos on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysos. Come, ye Bakkhai, come, ye Bakkhai, bringing down Bromios, god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.'
And again, . . . 'the triple-crested Korybantes in their caverns invented this hide-stretched circlet [the tambourine], and blent its Bakkhic revelry with the high-pitched, sweet-sounding breath of Phrygian flutes, and in Rhea's hands placed its resounding noise, to accompany the shouts of the Bakkhai, and from Meter (Mother) Rhea frenzied Satyroi obtained it and joined it to the choral dances of the Trieterides, in whom Dionysos takes delight.'"

Nonnus in his epic Dionysiaca describing the adventures of Dionysos, provides a colourful account of the god's youth spent with Rhea. A few selected passages are quoted here:-

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 1. 20 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) :
"Bakkhos [Dionysos, as a babe] on the arm of buxom Rheia, stealthily draining the breast of the lion-breeding goddess."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 9. 136 ff :
"She [the jealous Hera] would have destroyed the son of Zeus [Dionysos still a baby in the care of the Theban princess Ino]; but Hermes caught him up, and carried him to the wooded ridge where Kybele dwelt. Moving fast, Hera ran swift-shoe on quick feet from high heaven; but he was before her, and assumed the eternal shape of first-born Phanes [one of the first born gods]. Hera in respect for the most ancient of the gods, gave him place and bowed before the radiance of the deceiving face, not knowing the borrowed shape for a fraud. So Hermes passed over the mountain tract with quicker step than hers, carrying the horned child folded in his arms, and gave it to Rheia, nurse of lions, mother of Father Zeus, and said these few words to the goddess mother of the greatest : 'Receive, goddess, a new son of your Zeus! He is to fight with the Indians, and when he has done with earth he will come into the starry sky, to the great joy of resentful Hera! Indeed it is not proper that Ino should be nurse to one whom Zeus brought forth. Let the mother of Zeus be nanny to Dionysos--mother of Zeus and nurse of her grandson!'
This said he put off the higher shape of selfborn Phanes and put on his own form again, leaving Bakkhos to grow a second time in the Meter's (Mother's) nurture.
The goddess took care of him; and while he was yet a boy, she set him to drive a car drawn by ravening lions. Within that godwelcoming courtyard, the tripping Korybantes would surround Dionysos with their childcherishing dance, and clash their swords, and strike their shields with rebounding steel in alternate movements, to conceal the growing boyhood of Dionysos; and as the boy listened to the fostering noise of the shields he grew up under the care of the Korybantes like his father.
At nine years old the youngster went a-hunting his game to the kill . . . he would hold lightly aloft stretched on his shoulders a bold fellstriped tiger unshackled, and brought in hand to show Rheia the cubs he had torn newborn from the dam's milky teats. He dragged horrible lions all alive, and clutching a couple of feet in each hand presented them to the Mother that she might yoke them to her car. Rheia looked on laughing with joy, and admired the manliness and doughty feats of young Dionysos; his father Kronion [Zeus] laughed when he saw with delighted eyes Iobakkhos driving the grim lions . . .
Often he stood in the chariot of immortal Rheia, and held the flowing reins in his tenderskin hand, and checked the nimble team of galloping lions . . . Thus he grew up beside cliffloving Rheia, yet a boy in healthy youth, mountainbred."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 9. 206 ff :
"[The apotheosed Semele addresses Hera :] 'See [the baby] Dionysos in the arms of your own mother [Rhea], he lies on that cherishing arm! The Dispenser of the eternal universe, the first sown Beginning of the gods, the Allmother, became a nurse for Bromios [Dionysos]; she offered to infant Bakkhos the breast which Zeus High and Mighty has sucked! What Kronides was ever in labour, what Rheia was ever nurse for your boy? But this Kybele [Rhea] who is called your mother brought forth Zeus and suckled Bakkhos in the same lap! She dandled them both, the son and the father.'"

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 10. 139 ff :
"Dionysos, in the latitude of Lydia's fields, grew into youthful bloom as tall as he wished, shaking the Euian gear of Rheia Kybele."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 12. 380 ff :
"To Dionysos alone had Rheia given the amethyst, which preserves the winedrinker from the tyranny of madness."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 13. 470 ff :
"The grapegrowing land of Bakkhos, where the vinegod first mixed wine for Mother Rheia in a brimming cup, and named the city Kerassai, the Mixings [in Lydia]."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 34. 214 ff :
"Vineclad Phrygia, where Rheia dwells who cared for Bromios in boyhood."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 45. 96 ff :
"[Dionysos] whom Rheia mother of the gods nursed with her cherishing milk."
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Random News Stories
March 16, 2019, 02:54:53 AM
I practice my martial arts (silat) in the shower all the time. I could probably give him some good tips. Its a terribly slippery environment, after all....


I'm currently doing some crazy stuff with a javascript wiki, and I managed to import a 3rd party UI plugin that lets you design forms with text schemas. I've been banging my head against javascript and this particular wiki setup for a year now. This feels really good.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled quantum static.