Blarg!
didn't they get mr. ed to talk by sticking a carrot up his butt? i know horses aren't people but... :( it is a bad world we live in.
that is pretty sick, roger.. thanks for giving me bad dreams for a week.
now i don't just want to break stuff, i want to blow stuff up.
boom baby
kim
Quote from: sakredchaothat is pretty sick, roger.. thanks for giving me bad dreams for a week.
now i don't just want to break stuff, i want to blow stuff up.
boom baby
kim
1. Yeah, it's pretty fucking sick. But you can thank Rumsfeld, and a few others, not me.
2. Good. You SHOULD feel that way. Any civilized human being would want to blow shit up upon learning that.
you got any kind of link roger? i'm going to try to let people know about this.. or just the july 11-17 week of the new yorker.. sy hershs' story.?
i have a massmail that hits people in various walks of life.. from hippies to highly successful businesspeople.. and if i let 60 people know, they can let a few know.. i think my grama subscribes to the NYer, i wonder if she read it.
kim
Quote from: sakredchaoyou got any kind of link roger? i'm going to try to let people know about this.. or just the july 11-17 week of the new yorker.. sy hershs' story.?
i have a massmail that hits people in various walks of life.. from hippies to highly successful businesspeople.. and if i let 60 people know, they can let a few know.. i think my grama subscribes to the NYer, i wonder if she read it.
kim
I have a partial...the story indicated isn't on their website yet.
But this is what he said (note the forum he said it on) while he was still digging:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C118955%2C00.html
HERSH: First of all, it's going to get much worse. This kind of stuff was much more widespread. I can tell you just from the phone calls I've had in the last 24 hours, even more, there are other photos out there. There are many more photos even inside that unit. There are videotapes of stuff that you wouldn't want to mention on national television that was done. There was a lot of problems.
There was a special women's section. There were young boys in there. There were things done to young boys that were videotaped. It's much worse. And the Maj. Gen. Taguba was very tough about it. He said this place was riddled with violent, awful actions against prisoners. Note the disclaimer:
This is a partial transcript from "The O'Reilly Factor," May 3, 2004 that has been edited for clarity.By the way, I happen to know General Taguba personally. I was his S4 NCO when he was Colonel Taguba. He's not the excitable type...if he's pissed, things are seriously wrong.
As I said, this is old news...the new Sy Hersh piece is far, far worse.
To quote from one of my favorite films, M*A*S*H:
"Goddamn army."
I wish this suprised me, but it doesn't. I've loathed the military for awhile now, and this doesn't seem too suprising. Disgusting, repulsive, sickening, inhuman and vile yes. Suprising, nope. Not in the least. How can you expect a bunch of brainwashed killers, people trained to drop fiery death from the sky onto civilians, how can you expect these people to be civil? The whole goddamn army is a goddamn disgusting spectacle. These kiddy molestors are just the ones they've caught. Anyone here who doubts that Iraqi women and young girls have been raped by US soldiers, raise your hand.
The whole military is a sick obscene mess. Nesesarry? I have my doubts, but no matter what you do, soldiers always are always have been and always will be trained killers. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sugarcoat it all you want, but they are trained to put bullets into people and drop fiery death from the heavens. They are thugs.
Quote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaTo quote from one of my favorite films, M*A*S*H:
"Goddamn army."
I wish this suprised me, but it doesn't. I've loathed the military for awhile now, and this doesn't seem too suprising. Disgusting, repulsive, sickening, inhuman and vile yes. Suprising, nope. Not in the least. How can you expect a bunch of brainwashed killers, people trained to drop fiery death from the sky onto civilians, how can you expect these people to be civil? The whole goddamn army is a goddamn disgusting spectacle. These kiddy molestors are just the ones they've caught. Anyone here who doubts that Iraqi women and young girls have been raped by US soldiers, raise your hand.
The whole military is a sick obscene mess. Nesesarry? I have my doubts, but no matter what you do, soldiers always are always have been and always will be trained killers. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sugarcoat it all you want, but they are trained to put bullets into people and drop fiery death from the heavens. They are thugs.
The Good Reverend was Army (infantry) for 10 years, and never did, or even saw, that kind of shit. This problem is top-down.
You can just fuck off, stereotype-boi.
Rev Roger,
"Thug".
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaTo quote from one of my favorite films, M*A*S*H:
"Goddamn army."
I wish this suprised me, but it doesn't. I've loathed the military for awhile now, and this doesn't seem too suprising. Disgusting, repulsive, sickening, inhuman and vile yes. Suprising, nope. Not in the least. How can you expect a bunch of brainwashed killers, people trained to drop fiery death from the sky onto civilians, how can you expect these people to be civil? The whole goddamn army is a goddamn disgusting spectacle. These kiddy molestors are just the ones they've caught. Anyone here who doubts that Iraqi women and young girls have been raped by US soldiers, raise your hand.
The whole military is a sick obscene mess. Nesesarry? I have my doubts, but no matter what you do, soldiers always are always have been and always will be trained killers. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sugarcoat it all you want, but they are trained to put bullets into people and drop fiery death from the heavens. They are thugs.
The Good Reverend was Army (infantry) for 10 years, and never saw that kind of shit. This problem is top-down.
You can just fuck off, stereotype-boi.
To where shall I fuck off sir?
Apologies on the stereotyping. Mind clouded by irrational hatred.
Quote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaTo quote from one of my favorite films, M*A*S*H:
"Goddamn army."
I wish this suprised me, but it doesn't. I've loathed the military for awhile now, and this doesn't seem too suprising. Disgusting, repulsive, sickening, inhuman and vile yes. Suprising, nope. Not in the least. How can you expect a bunch of brainwashed killers, people trained to drop fiery death from the sky onto civilians, how can you expect these people to be civil? The whole goddamn army is a goddamn disgusting spectacle. These kiddy molestors are just the ones they've caught. Anyone here who doubts that Iraqi women and young girls have been raped by US soldiers, raise your hand.
The whole military is a sick obscene mess. Nesesarry? I have my doubts, but no matter what you do, soldiers always are always have been and always will be trained killers. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sugarcoat it all you want, but they are trained to put bullets into people and drop fiery death from the heavens. They are thugs.
The Good Reverend was Army (infantry) for 10 years, and never saw that kind of shit. This problem is top-down.
You can just fuck off, stereotype-boi.
To where shall I fuck off sir?
Apologies on the stereotyping. Mind clouded by irrational hatred.
No problem, I'm a little pissed off, too.
This ain't the army I knew, lo these many years ago. This is something else, entirely. Something evil, sick, and wrong.
Worst part is,
it's only a symptom of a far greater problem.
Ummm...
Yeah lets see.
*Throws Up*
And I still dont feel better. This is fucked up. Sick, wrong, crule, unusual (hopefully), and inhimane. I have nothing more to say. I cant say anything.
More/better links:
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040717-082858-3675r.htm
Whole bunch here:
http://news.google.com/news?q=Hersh&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nn
Quote from: PenumbralUmmm...
Yeah lets see.
*Throws Up*
And I still dont feel better. This is fucked up. Sick, wrong, crule, unusual (hopefully), and inhimane. I have nothing more to say. I cant say anything.
These are also the people that are charged with defending us, and representing us to the world.
We are so fucked, it's unreal.
Mark my words: NOTHING will happen to Rumsfeld. Not a damned thing.
Then, there's THIS:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E3C89C20-6A0A-48F9-9476-A72F4E00A426.htm
Hersh's revelation follows a newly released 2002 Pentagon memo in which Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld personally authorised the use of dogs for intimidation, stripping prisoners of clothes and hooding them.
Rumsfeld also ordered military officials to hold prisoners but not list them on prisoner rolls requested by the International Red Cross.
According to Newsweek magazine, these memos and orders were signed by Rumsfeld, Bush and Attorney General John Ashcroft.
i was watchign soem cnn the other day when oen of the anchors had a very well chaoregraphed "one on one serius talk" style piece abotu the difference between the anchor guy(dunno the name) movie and "real anchors and media" was qutie amusing to see this guy trying to promote himself and his line of work as little more than thespianism.
My media box tells me what is going on.
I've felt a pervasive fear of what this country is becoming since the first couple weeks after 9/11, and its only grown more acute as time passes.
Maybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
Remember that americans are absolutely fucking psycho.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerAny civilized human being would want to blow shit up upon learning that.
Funnily enough, I don't. Perhaps I am not civilised.
I was having a discussion this evening about all the shit going down in the US and the shit that US representatives (be they ambassadors, soldiers, politicians or whatever) are pulling wherever they happen to be. I think that my take on it all is that the citizens of the US have the right to self determination and what better expression of freedom could there be than to not even stop your representatives doing to foulest or stupidest things that they can think up? You are so free that you are even freed from being held accountable for your actions.
I'm told that King Solomon once said that, "justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are". Maybe I am washing my hands of this. Maybe in doing so, I am denying those Iraqis the justice that they so rightly deserve. If I was an Iraqi, I'd probably be out hunting Americans by now.
Thing is though, I am not surprised. Not even a little bit. And if this doesn't surprise me, why should it make me want to blow shit up? I didn't want to before and nothing has changed now -- I still see Americans the same way; American until proven free-thinking.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
This is horrifying, and yet it doesn't surprise me.
Having spent more than a decade working with rape survivors and the families of homicide victims, I am unable to maintain the illusion that we are not a violent people living in a violent country. We sodomise and murder our own children. We torture each other in every conceivable manner on a regular basis, so one can only assume that we would be even worse to those who are labeled as "other" and "enemy".
The only elements I find surprising are that this was so blatantly and openly condoned by the administration (hell, they set the stage for this to happen) and the fact that it came to light as quickly as it did. Not that I ever thought this administration was above such actions....just that it surprises me they do little or nothing to hide it.
Of course nothing will happen to Rumsfeld.
And of course Iraqi women and girls are being raped, too, as are Iraqi men.
And also of course this is a symptom of something far worse.
I have to go bang my head on the table for a while now, please excuse me.
PS: Never underestimate the dangers of rabid nationalism.
We got it and we got it bad.
::wanders off to look for sanity and clarity::
1. Build "volunteer army" by paying low wages so that it's composed of mostly disenfranchised youth and the working poor
2. Send army to a sandy hellhole for years at a stretch, ensuring massive demoralization and poverty at home
3. Throw in a dash of Neocon top-down authoritarian idealism
5. Allow the shat-upon members of your army some degree of control over prisoners
Voila! Recipe for gross abuses of power and conduct unbecoming ANYBODY. No, not surprised. Sickened, saddened, but not surprised. This isn't a slam against the military as a free-standing entity. I agree with Orwell when he said, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." I thank them for this. Just that I have a hard time believing anyone in Iraq was planning on doing me harm. Well, "was".
Maybe the real point of this war was to raise up a new generation of terrorists to War against.
"Maybe the real point of this war was to raise up a new generation of terrorists to War against." -wishfart
you mean american revolutionary terrorists? or the plain ol foriegn breed..?
kim
Not sure it matters, to those in power. As long as there's something to fight they can scare people into following them. The scarier, the better, and the more rights can be loudly taken away in the name of National Security.
This is monstrous.
We all have the potential to be monsters.
Ya gotta stay on top of that part of your nature all the time.
War makes it harder to do that......that's all.
Anytime anyone is placed in control over prisoners - or anyone over whom they have total athority - there is not only potential, but likleyhood of abuse of power. Phycologists have known this for years - decades even; and when people are told by athority figures that some repugnant action is "nessasary", thay will do it, even if it causes great harm to someone else, even if that someone can be easily seen and cannot retaliate.
Makes me wonder about my fetishes, sometimes...
i went looking through the new yorker.. the last 3 issues, couyldn't find it.
i did find 1 article by seymore hersh.. "national security plan b" which was mostly about how we didn't have a plan for iraq and were generally stupid.
which issue is it in?
kim
Global Guerrillas (http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/)
May seem to be a counter terrorism site, but read and learn, oh my droogs.
I don't know what the problem is. Rumsfeld might, but the man sits in his tower and doesn't give a shit, because he doesn't HAVE to give a shit. And he'll be back for another 4 years, unless "something" happens to him. *blows out the candles on a birthday cake, wishing to Bohr*
Rabbid nationalism is hard to deal with. Hell, after 911 I was in favor of bombing the shit out of anything and everything. (But in my defense, I was only like 15 and pretty dumb, a conservative product of homeschooling who halfway trusted the government.) I mean, people like us have no real say, we're a minority. Sure there are plenty Michael Moore anti-Bushers out there, but I don't think too highly of Moore. He doesn't seem much brighter than Rush Limbaugh. Sure Shrub may loose this November, but what does it change? We;ll just have another establishment whore in place.
Perhaps the issue is enducation, but how do you educate against nationalism when nationalism is the policy? You get drummed out of the Teacher's Lounge and loose access to the coffee machine, and maybe your job.
I guess all we can do is stick to fucking around with people and making the best of what we're given and doing whatever we can to make things better. sigh.
Quote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
Quote from: chaoi went looking through the new yorker.. the last 3 issues, couyldn't find it.
i did find 1 article by seymore hersh.. "national security plan b" which was mostly about how we didn't have a plan for iraq and were generally stupid.
which issue is it in?
kim
Mis-spoke my source...I'm just too used to reading Sy Hersh in the New Yorker. It was actually in the NITA journal. However, the list of links I gave you (Washington Times, etc) give the same account.
However, th
Quote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
I do believe that humans are inherantly ignorant and selfish.
Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
everyone is ignorant, hoever as for selfish, the american media consumer feeding machine fits the bill quite readily, and liek any other cultural prodtuct popular among a given demographic, "counterculture" is quite profitable. it certainly wasn;t middle classed lower classed disenfranchised youths/etc who put up the thousands of dollars necessary to produce/manufacture/distribute all those punk/hiphop/ cds, and other culkrutal consumer cowpatties.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
I do believe that humans are inherantly ignorant and selfish.
Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
I don't think a blanket statement declaring all counterculturals establishment is totally fair. I'm not so sure what to think about Richard metzger and his Disinfo company, but he's charming if nothing else and has a Crowlean appeal to him, but I take everything his website says with a grain of salt.
I think being counterculture is usually kind of silly myself, but whatever lights your fire.
metzger is oen of the most blatant example sof entrepeneurial countercoulture cpitalism. don't know if you ever noticed all teh ads on that site before...
yes, but as he pointed out in a speech, what's wrong with making some money off of what you love? Why should counterculturals be reduced to sitting around posting weirdness on the internet and getting nothing? His site does have lots of cool stuff on magick and conspiracy theories, it's more comprehensive than some weirdo in his basement could have done. I dont' trust him completely, but he doesn't deny that he is interested in making a buck off of his interests.
One of the big problems with counterculturals is that they are very very cliquey. Y'all are more than happy to scream sellout on anyone who is tired of living a modest-poor lifestyle. The indie rock scene is just as bad. Have you seen the Disinfo TV series? It's a slick package, which will anger many CCs, and it has it's tongue just digging into it's cheek flesh. It's actually pretty funny. (and the 2nd disc is more than worth the price.)
Of course you can't trust Metzger anymore than you can trust Crowley, but he makes a better icon for the counterculture than most of it's members.
Money corrupts, and absolute money corrupts absolutely.
please for the love of coffee, STOP THE METAQUOTES
Quote from: Malaulplease for the love of coffee, STOP THE METAQUOTES
How dare you take Coffee's name in vain!?
IM THE CAFFEINATRIXX!!
I take coffee very verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry seriously
so when I say for the love of coffee, Im serious in my request for no more metaquotes
Quote from: MalaulIM THE CAFFEINATRIXX!!
I take coffee very verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry seriously
so when I say for the love of coffee, Im serious in my request for no more metaquotes
*cowers in fear* i...wasnt...metaquoting....it was the gnome! Forgive me for sharing a state with him.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerThe Good Reverend is feeling a whole lot of outrage right now, and that isn't an emotion that he's used to.
As a confirmed pessimist, I am always (I thought) prepared for the worst in people. I laugh when crooked politicians sneer at the public, and I actually think corporate scandals should be scored, based on factors such as amount, brazen-ness, etc. Hell, they should probably be an olympic sport...
But last night, I read Sy Hersh's story about the Abu Graib allegations, specifically the ones Rumsfeld referred to as "there are other charges, very serious ones, that should never be made public".
Those of us that are older remember Sy Hersh; he's the guy that broke the My Lai massacre story during Vietnam. The guy has the old fashioned notion that the press is there to report, not cheerlead...and here's what he had to say...
Sitting down?
The "other charges" are this: US soldiers and/or Iraqi guards under US command sodomized 15 and 16 year old boys, in front of other prisoners (in some cases relatives of the boys), to "interrogate" them (and the other prisoners).
Let me say that again: THEY SODOMIZED CHILDREN.
Aren't you PROUD of our military, out there defending civilization? If it wasn't Sy Hersh saying it, I wouldn't believe it.
But wait, it gets better: It seems that this was condoned, even AUTHORIZED, by persons such as General Karpinski (the General in charge of the prisons), and Donald Rumsfeld himself. Odds are, the president knew...and if he didn't, he does now, and he hasn't fired Rumsfeld.
If General Patton were alive today, he'd shoot the whole lot of them, himself.
But it gets even better...the New Yorker carried this story last week, and the networks won't touch it. Why not? This isn't Geraldo Rivera we're talking about...it's one of the most respected reporters, one of the ONLY remaining respected reporters, in America.
Maybe they just don't want to look. Maybe they're even just a tad ashamed that the war, the war THEY beat the drums for, has come to THIS.
Remember those old history books, the ones that talk about WWII and the Nazis? Chuck them out, they're obsolete. We've got our OWN Nazis, now.
That's the thing about Nazis...they're like cockroaches. You can stomp them, burn them, poison them...and the pigfuckers just keep coming back.
What's worse is, by the time you see one, there are thousands.
Welcome to the post-American century. Welcome to the American Empire.
Or kill me.
If you'd ever thought the west wasn't anti-muslim under the surface and moving closer to a full-scale outbreak of pimpled, furry-toothed bigotry, then this one oughtta seal it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaTo quote from one of my favorite films, M*A*S*H:
"Goddamn army."
I wish this suprised me, but it doesn't. I've loathed the military for awhile now, and this doesn't seem too suprising. Disgusting, repulsive, sickening, inhuman and vile yes. Suprising, nope. Not in the least. How can you expect a bunch of brainwashed killers, people trained to drop fiery death from the sky onto civilians, how can you expect these people to be civil? The whole goddamn army is a goddamn disgusting spectacle. These kiddy molestors are just the ones they've caught. Anyone here who doubts that Iraqi women and young girls have been raped by US soldiers, raise your hand.
The whole military is a sick obscene mess. Nesesarry? I have my doubts, but no matter what you do, soldiers always are always have been and always will be trained killers. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sugarcoat it all you want, but they are trained to put bullets into people and drop fiery death from the heavens. They are thugs.
The Good Reverend was Army (infantry) for 10 years, and never did, or even saw, that kind of shit. This problem is top-down.
You can just fuck off, stereotype-boi.
Rev Roger,
"Thug".
When was your term? And did you go through Fort Jackson for boot? I kind of ask this of everyone I meet who is in the army, as I'm trying to find anyone who had any interaction with my Grandfather. He was an E-9, was in the army for 27 years, then retired to teach Map Training in Basic at Fort Jackson. He retired from that in '94 or there abouts.
There were lots of questions I got to ask him before he died, and we talked alot about the things he'd seen and done, and what he thought of the world, but I was 14 and 15, then and I find now that I'm older there are just so many more questions that I want to ask that I will never get the chance to have answers to, no matter how many times I ask his urn.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerThe Good Reverend is feeling a whole lot of outrage right now, and that isn't an emotion that he's used to.
As a confirmed pessimist, I am always (I thought) prepared for the worst in people. I laugh when crooked politicians sneer at the public, and I actually think corporate scandals should be scored, based on factors such as amount, brazen-ness, etc. Hell, they should probably be an olympic sport...
But last night, I read Sy Hersh's story about the Abu Graib allegations, specifically the ones Rumsfeld referred to as "there are other charges, very serious ones, that should never be made public".
Those of us that are older remember Sy Hersh; he's the guy that broke the My Lai massacre story during Vietnam. The guy has the old fashioned notion that the press is there to report, not cheerlead...and here's what he had to say...
Sitting down?
The "other charges" are this: US soldiers and/or Iraqi guards under US command sodomized 15 and 16 year old boys, in front of other prisoners (in some cases relatives of the boys), to "interrogate" them (and the other prisoners).
Let me say that again: THEY SODOMIZED CHILDREN.
Aren't you PROUD of our military, out there defending civilization? If it wasn't Sy Hersh saying it, I wouldn't believe it.
But wait, it gets better: It seems that this was condoned, even AUTHORIZED, by persons such as General Karpinski (the General in charge of the prisons), and Donald Rumsfeld himself. Odds are, the president knew...and if he didn't, he does now, and he hasn't fired Rumsfeld.
If General Patton were alive today, he'd shoot the whole lot of them, himself.
But it gets even better...the New Yorker carried this story last week, and the networks won't touch it. Why not? This isn't Geraldo Rivera we're talking about...it's one of the most respected reporters, one of the ONLY remaining respected reporters, in America.
Maybe they just don't want to look. Maybe they're even just a tad ashamed that the war, the war THEY beat the drums for, has come to THIS.
Remember those old history books, the ones that talk about WWII and the Nazis? Chuck them out, they're obsolete. We've got our OWN Nazis, now.
That's the thing about Nazis...they're like cockroaches. You can stomp them, burn them, poison them...and the pigfuckers just keep coming back.
What's worse is, by the time you see one, there are thousands.
Welcome to the post-American century. Welcome to the American Empire.
Or kill me.
On the subject of Nazis, I know quite a deal about this, because it's a good thing to know where you come from and about your family history.
My full name is Carl Eric von Kleist the Fourth.
My father is carl Eric von Kleist the Third, and his father is Carl Eric von Kleist the Second.
My grandfather was sent with his elder brother to live in a German Orphanage in Fat City when they were young, sometime in the mid to late thirties, If I recall my dates correctly, because, well, it wasn't a good thing to be against Nazi-ism when the country was run by them.
My family, the German side of my family, was old nobility, and most of the members of it were opposed to Hitler's ideaology. One of my family members, Ewald von Kleist, (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Schmenzin.html) was executed as a result of one of the coup attempts against Hitler.
Anouther member of my family, Ewald's cousin, Paul von Kleist (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERkliest.htm), was a Fieldmarschall and Panzer General who was Sacked by Hitler and later died in a Soviet Gulag. He was anti-Nazi from the beginning, but kept on because he was a brilliant military strategist, though he was sacked and then reinducted into the military once because of doubts about loyalty.
My family came over to this country because it wasn't safe for their children, because Eris knows what the Nazis would have done to them to either influence their parents or if the parents were killed.
Growing up I learned quite a bit about Nazi germany, the things the Nazis did and how they did them, because it's important not to forget horrible things. I've been asked several times in Junior and High School if I was a Nazi, simply because of my last name being German, and I've launched into some rather scathing verbal assaults that got me expelled once or twice over it. One time I was asked if I was a Nazi because someone had read about either Ewald, his son, or Paul in a book on Nazi-ism and Germany and by happenstance happened to be going to scool with a great-great-nephew of the two. (I'm reasonably sure it's great great nephew. I'll have to ask my uncle when I get up. Though I'm pretty sure he'll just roll his eyes at me and call me stupid.)
I think learning about my family's history was a big part of what made me so cynical and jaded so young. I'm extremely desensitized to violence, to such a degree that my mother, who does Clinical Assessment, was at one time worried I was Sociopathic. And while I'm desensitized, it's more of in a, "So what else is new? Kid shot kid to death over candy bar. We're humans. Been doing it a long time, mate," instead of a, "Who gives a shit," way.
It doesn't suprise me in the least that this kind of crap happened (and as for those who think the Holocaust never happened, I hope to meet each and every one of you alone in a dark alley some day, as I have a sword with your name on it. And barring the dark alley and the sword, after 7 years of Tae Kwan Doe, 4 or Karate and 2 of Aikido, I'm fairly sure that if I can't correct your views verbally, I can knock some sense into you, or out of you, as the case may be), and am no way suprised that it's happening again.
People wonder how the hell crap like what happens in Israel and Palestine every day can occur, and now it's happening to us: We're creating such a hatred and fear and loathing of a certain group of people that of course when you take a group of people in that small division that we've created this hatred of, take away all power from them, and them put people in charge of them with absolute power over their lives. Of course they're going to do this sort of sick, horrible crap to them. What kind of idiot would expect them not to?
I guess Rumsfield and others never read that study done by Princton.
Of course, Rumsfield was ordering it! What kind of man is this, that he is in government?
Well, there is one thing that holds true.
Human stupidity will never cease to amaze me.
And sorry I kind of took a while to get where I was going.
For once, Confusio, I find that your post goes against your namesake and it actually makes a great deal of sense.
When I was a kid, there were a lot of rumors floating around about my grandfather on my fathers side (Zahn) because they knew he was a pilot, but they werent sure for which side.
So when I took my trip to germany four years ago, to visit my father (who is an expatriated american), I queried him on it.
Turned out my mothers side of the family was wrong, and my grandfather was apparently some kind a crazy man with a short guy complex that turned him into a bad-ass (guess he got into lots of fights with australians, over stupid shit.)
I'm not really going anywhere with this story, its just the first thing that came to mind.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeFor once, Confusio, I find that your post goes against your namesake and it actually makes a great deal of sense.
We can't have that.
To retaliate for this act, which is clearly in defiance and disreguard of the Semiconcious Liberation Army's demands, we force you to... view...
ME AS PHILLIP J. FRY!
(http://cevk.com/images/ericasfrystanding.jpg)
This is some of the least disgusting (male) cosplay I've ever seen.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeThis is some of the least disgusting (male) cosplay I've ever seen.
Thank you. Sorry the picture is so blurry, I don't have a digital camera and my webcam (my Uncle's) isn't that good at a distance.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeAnyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
Uh, where?
Serious question. Living 10,000 miles away, I may well have missed something obvious to those that live in the thick of it.
From here, it looks awfully like the same crowd has been in power since sometime in the 50s, if not before. I don't see any group moving in to knock them down, let alone plenty of groups.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeThis is some of the least disgusting (male) cosplay I've ever seen.
Thank you. Sorry the picture is so blurry, I don't have a digital camera and my webcam (my Uncle's) isn't that good at a distance.
HAW! Just wait til I get back from GenCon with pictures of me as FFX-2 Rikku! Bwahahahaha!
Quote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeThis is some of the least disgusting (male) cosplay I've ever seen.
Thank you. Sorry the picture is so blurry, I don't have a digital camera and my webcam (my Uncle's) isn't that good at a distance.
HAW! Just wait til I get back from GenCon with pictures of me as FFX-2 Rikku! Bwahahahaha!
I went to GenCon last year. It was great. Wish I could go again this year.
It truely is the Best Four Days in Gaming. I still have last years Event Badge.
By the way, you may want to look out for the Legions of Not Quite Nazi but Definately Imperial Stormtroopers that will show up.
Also, last year the Klingons were arresting people for donations to the Humane Society.
Watch out.
Oh, and whatever you do, whether it's a real weapon or Boffer, there is NO FIGHTING of ANY KIND inside the Convention Center, unless it's in one of the LARP workshops or Demonstrations.
I learned that the hard way.
"Sir, will you please put the sword away before I have to shoot you?"
Quote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeAnyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
Uh, where?
Serious question. Living 10,000 miles away, I may well have missed something obvious to those that live in the thick of it.
From here, it looks awfully like the same crowd has been in power since sometime in the 50s, if not before. I don't see any group moving in to knock them down, let alone plenty of groups.
What Buddha meant to say was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes a challenge to the status quo, they can be easily coopted by the political parties, through adapting the challenger's agenda into one or the other's (or both) rhetoric, and thereby removing any apparent need for the majority to consider options other than party A and party B.
Except, of course, for Bella, who can not ever be coopted.
I think control has shifted plenty over the last fifty years, between a few different franchises of people, although right now it seems to be in the hands of the Oil companies.
Americas foreign policy spells disaster, and thats why I'm not really all that worried. Its doomed to failure, and there are plenty of people in this country who are keeping their mouths shut about things I'm not going to talk about... because its much better actually doing them.
Besides that, you are partially correct, a lot of people of the same entity have been in power for a while. The bush administration dates back to the reagan administration, which may or may not have anything to do with the Nixon administration (I've done a little bit of checking, but not a lot.)
... and while I do agree with Gnimbley, partially, I was mostly referring to the millions of people who live here. The growing climate of distrust for the government (I see this, where you only see rabid nationalism, because I am in the thick of it.), And the willingness of some people to etc. etc. etc.
Maybe my brain has been polluted by the last couple of train hopping anarchists I talked to.
Quote from: gnimbleyQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeAnyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
Uh, where?
Serious question. Living 10,000 miles away, I may well have missed something obvious to those that live in the thick of it.
From here, it looks awfully like the same crowd has been in power since sometime in the 50s, if not before. I don't see any group moving in to knock them down, let alone plenty of groups.
What Buddha meant to say was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes a challenge to the status quo, they can be easily coopted by the political parties, through adapting the challenger's agenda into one or the other's (or both) rhetoric, and thereby removing any apparent need for the majority to consider options other than party A and party B.
Except, of course, for Bella, who can not ever be coopted.
Actually, I do agree with this, as that neither party is the same as it was fifty years ago.
I actually have noticed different movements within each party, or maybe cliques would be a better word.
The other day I saw an argument between a Rebuplican and a Democrat where the Democrat (A gay black man, not that it has anything to do with it) was arguing in support of Israel, and the Rebuplican (a white suburban male) was arguing against the state of Israel.
It was a pretty hilarious juxtaposition of typical viewpoints.
I should also say that I've met plenty of Anti-Bush republicans. I think the huge Pro-Bush actually partially a media generated illusion. (Remember, Television is a tool of control.) This is the dangerous thing, a lot of people are suckers for propaganda.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeAnyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
Uh, where?
Serious question. Living 10,000 miles away, I may well have missed something obvious to those that live in the thick of it.
From here, it looks awfully like the same crowd has been in power since sometime in the 50s, if not before. I don't see any group moving in to knock them down, let alone plenty of groups.
What Buddha meant to say was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes a challenge to the status quo, they can be easily coopted by the political parties, through adapting the challenger's agenda into one or the other's (or both) rhetoric, and thereby removing any apparent need for the majority to consider options other than party A and party B.
Except, of course, for Bella, who can not ever be coopted.
Actually, I do agree with this, as that neither party is the same as it was fifty years ago.
I actually have noticed different movements within each party, or maybe cliques would be a better word.
The other day I saw an argument between a Rebuplican and a Democrat where the Democrat (A gay black man, not that it has anything to do with it) was arguing in support of Israel, and the Rebuplican (a white suburban male) was arguing against the state of Israel.
It was a pretty hilarious juxtaposition of typical viewpoints.
I should also say that I've met plenty of Anti-Bush republicans. I think the huge Pro-Bush actually partially a media generated illusion. (Remember, Television is a tool of control.) This is the dangerous thing, a lot of people are suckers for propaganda.
::Strikes Buddha on the head with his zen disciple stick thingy::
Look again, oh, unenlightened one. These things of which you speak are only the robes they wear to please your eyes. They go obsolete every three months and must be repurchased during seasonal sales at Target and Kohl's. Tear the blinders from your face. The Republicans are the party that freed the slaves. Yet what has changed is nothing. Consider that.
::wanders off to look for a new stick::
::and a nice slice of pie would be good about now::
::mmm... and a nappy nap::
gnimbley, aren't nappy naps the best?
Quote from: gnimbley::Strikes Buddha on the head with his zen disciple stick thingy::
Look again, oh, unenlightened one ... The Republicans are the party that freed the slaves. Yet what has changed is nothing. Consider that.
::Bows to Gnimbley::
And I shall also seek enlightenement in a sunlit nap.
Quote from: gnimbleyQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeAnyway, the point I wanted to make was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes any form of control, you'll have plenty of others moving to knock them down and occupy the leftover space.
Uh, where?
Serious question. Living 10,000 miles away, I may well have missed something obvious to those that live in the thick of it.
From here, it looks awfully like the same crowd has been in power since sometime in the 50s, if not before. I don't see any group moving in to knock them down, let alone plenty of groups.
What Buddha meant to say was that America is diverse enough that once any group establishes a challenge to the status quo, they can be easily coopted by the political parties, through adapting the challenger's agenda into one or the other's (or both) rhetoric, and thereby removing any apparent need for the majority to consider options other than party A and party B.
Except, of course, for Bella, who can not ever be coopted.
Actually, I do agree with this, as that neither party is the same as it was fifty years ago.
I actually have noticed different movements within each party, or maybe cliques would be a better word.
The other day I saw an argument between a Rebuplican and a Democrat where the Democrat (A gay black man, not that it has anything to do with it) was arguing in support of Israel, and the Rebuplican (a white suburban male) was arguing against the state of Israel.
It was a pretty hilarious juxtaposition of typical viewpoints.
I should also say that I've met plenty of Anti-Bush republicans. I think the huge Pro-Bush actually partially a media generated illusion. (Remember, Television is a tool of control.) This is the dangerous thing, a lot of people are suckers for propaganda.
::Strikes Buddha on the head with his zen disciple stick thingy::
Look again, oh, unenlightened one. These things of which you speak are only the robes they wear to please your eyes. They go obsolete every three months and must be repurchased during seasonal sales at Target and Kohl's. Tear the blinders from your face. The Republicans are the party that freed the slaves. Yet what has changed is nothing. Consider that.
::wanders off to look for a new stick::
::and a nice slice of pie would be good about now::
::mmm... and a nappy nap::
Grrrr.
To set matters straight, I have never spoken out in favor of the republican party. I am simply speaking of an individual person.
I just want to make the point clear that the government is not the people, and the label isnt necessarily the person.
Now leave me alone, both of you! I have no intention of being the intellectual martyr for things that I dont believe in.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeTo set matters straight, I have never spoken out in favor of the republican party. I am simply speaking of an individual person.
We all got that. In fact, it is odd that you think that anyone thought you had.
Quote from: sakredchaognimbley, aren't nappy naps the best?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeNow leave me alone, both of you! I have no intention of being the intellectual martyr for things that I dont believe in.
Gee, and I just got myself a new zen disciple stick thingy.
Damn.
::wanders off to look for Commander 'cause he's always got room for pie::
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
It's true. By the time a counter-culture becomes viable, it has been packaged, marketed, and sold by the very same people that brought you the establishment itself.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: archPope Rocket P LlamaTo quote from one of my favorite films, M*A*S*H:
"Goddamn army."
I wish this suprised me, but it doesn't. I've loathed the military for awhile now, and this doesn't seem too suprising. Disgusting, repulsive, sickening, inhuman and vile yes. Suprising, nope. Not in the least. How can you expect a bunch of brainwashed killers, people trained to drop fiery death from the sky onto civilians, how can you expect these people to be civil? The whole goddamn army is a goddamn disgusting spectacle. These kiddy molestors are just the ones they've caught. Anyone here who doubts that Iraqi women and young girls have been raped by US soldiers, raise your hand.
The whole military is a sick obscene mess. Nesesarry? I have my doubts, but no matter what you do, soldiers always are always have been and always will be trained killers. Nothing more, and nothing less. Sugarcoat it all you want, but they are trained to put bullets into people and drop fiery death from the heavens. They are thugs.
The Good Reverend was Army (infantry) for 10 years, and never did, or even saw, that kind of shit. This problem is top-down.
You can just fuck off, stereotype-boi.
Rev Roger,
"Thug".
When was your term? And did you go through Fort Jackson for boot? I kind of ask this of everyone I meet who is in the army, as I'm trying to find anyone who had any interaction with my Grandfather. He was an E-9, was in the army for 27 years, then retired to teach Map Training in Basic at Fort Jackson. He retired from that in '94 or there abouts.
There were lots of questions I got to ask him before he died, and we talked alot about the things he'd seen and done, and what he thought of the world, but I was 14 and 15, then and I find now that I'm older there are just so many more questions that I want to ask that I will never get the chance to have answers to, no matter how many times I ask his urn.
1987-1996. No Fort Jackson, though.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
It's true. By the time a counter-culture becomes viable, it has been packaged, marketed, and sold by the very same people that brought you the establishment itself.
I agree that counterculture usually loses its merit once its easily identifiable.
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
It's true. By the time a counter-culture becomes viable, it has been packaged, marketed, and sold by the very same people that brought you the establishment itself.
I agree that counterculture usually loses its merit once its easily identifiable.
And if it isn't easily identifiable, it cannot garner the numbers necessary for it to be effective.
Apathy was on a winning streak for quite some time. Its always seemed to me like a lot of people are aware of the dog and pony show.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
It's true. By the time a counter-culture becomes viable, it has been packaged, marketed, and sold by the very same people that brought you the establishment itself.
I agree that counterculture usually loses its merit once its easily identifiable.
And if it isn't easily identifiable, it cannot garner the numbers necessary for it to be effective.
The very problem with any movement is that it
is easily identifiable, which makes it easy to be usurped, because most people within said organisation are going to be prone to being led. There is not one quality thing I've found in this world that has been easy to locate, most of them I have stumbled over by accident.
Quote from: St. Trollax, ODDQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
It's true. By the time a counter-culture becomes viable, it has been packaged, marketed, and sold by the very same people that brought you the establishment itself.
I agree that counterculture usually loses its merit once its easily identifiable.
And if it isn't easily identifiable, it cannot garner the numbers necessary for it to be effective.
The very problem with any movement is that it is easily identifiable, which makes it easy to be usurped, because most people within said organisation are going to be prone to being led. There is not one quality thing I've found in this world that has been easy to locate, most of them I have stumbled over by accident.
the song of 10000 monekys singing karaoke must be listened for.
please stop the metaquotes
This site is cool (http://www.freewayblogger.com/)
(http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/485_dead.jpg)
In response to the main topic of this thread, I have only this to say:
FUCK.
Quote from: MescalineBananaIn response to the main topic of this thread, I have only this to say:
FUCK.
Yeah.
Seig Heil!
Nat Hentoff on Ghost Prisoners (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0429/hentoff.php)
Quote from: gnimbleyThis site is cool (http://www.freewayblogger.com/)
(http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/485_dead.jpg)
Damn straight!
After being away for so long I came back and read this thread.
First off, about the Abu Ghraib shit: *vomits*
*then looks around for some gelgnite*
Second off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
As to the counterculture(tm) here: Heh. Okay. Whatever. There are some good people and groups trying to do things differently, but they are virulently attacked by both the counterculture(tm) and the mainstream(tm) if they even achieve a little success.
Disinfo.Com is a good site. So what if Metzger's making money? Would you turn down a job from him, or a publishing offer? The making of money isn't the problem, it's how you treat other human beings. I'll prank the shit out of people. I'll even confuse them towards insanity(tm). But I don't violate anyone.
Damn! If the old military guys in my family were still alive, they would fucking personally shoot everyone responsible for the Abu Ghraib thing...and even though it might not solve the issue of power relationships and abuses for all time, justice(tm) would be served and they would have made me proud, yet again. *sniff*
Shit! I am angry now.
Something is about to be punished.
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
Quote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Ah, yes, Latin class devotee.
ROME: The Benevolent Empire!
We Brought Civilization,Ñ¢ to the World.
All Hail CAESAR!
Just remember, buddy, that the victors write the history books. Learning about the Roman Empire from Classical Latin texts, is like learning about America from Fox News. Somehow, the dirty litle secrets just get swept away. Like the new military report which says the problems at that Iraqi prison were just "isolated" incidents by individual soldiers. Had nothing to do with the higher ups. Not out fault. We're civilized!
absolute power may corrupt, but so does elected power. hell power in the hands of any dishonourable man or woman will corrupt, and often does in the hands of honourable men and women. power is an end that is the means to itself.
I WIN! I WIN! I WIN!
The 9/11 Commission report is out, and they recommend:
1. a new bureaucracy funded with a lot of tax dollars to hunt down terrorists, especially those inside the U.S.;
2. more spies!;
3. a PR campaign to convince the rest of the world that the US is good and Islam is bad;
4. NATIONAL IDENTIFICATION CARDS!!! (called driver's licenses and passports with biometric data linked to a central database)
And look at what was not included.
1. No recommendation not to arm insurgents trying to overthrow the friends of our current political opponents, like EastAsia, er, the Soviet Union, er, whomever.
2. No recommendation that we shouldn't bomb villages and mosques and aspirin factories and defense headquarters to teach the other guy a lesson.
3. No recommendation to not invade other countries.
4. No recommendation not to mess in internal politics around the globe.
I WIN! I WIN! I WIN!
Quote from: gnimbleyQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Ah, yes, Latin class devotee.
ROME: The Benevolent Empire!
We Brought Civilization,Ñ¢ to the World.
All Hail CAESAR!
Just remember, buddy, that the victors write the history books. Learning about the Roman Empire from Classical Latin texts, is like learning about America from Fox News. Somehow, the dirty litle secrets just get swept away. Like the new military report which says the problems at that Iraqi prison were just "isolated" incidents by individual soldiers. Had nothing to do with the higher ups. Not out fault. We're civilized!
Are we not gentlemen, with open minds and sound reasoning?
It seems to me, that this quarrel between the two of us shall never be settled before the Day of Judgement, when I shall be sent to the Region of Thud to make Sinners into Mao buttons for Malaclypse the Elder to distribute.
Can we not set aside our differences, and embrace each other in friendship and brotherhood, my dear gnome?
...
And if your avatar doesn't stop winking at me...
...I shall have to think of something sophmoric.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Constantine?
The Roman Expansion destroyed the Roman republic. For this reason alone, empires are bad.
If that doesn't sell you, read Tacitus's Annals.
NO system that places a man above the law is good.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Constantine?
The Roman Expansion destroyed the Roman republic. For this reason alone, empires are bad.
If that doesn't sell you, read Tacitus's Annals.
NO system that places a man above the law is good.
what about a computer or a super inteligent monkey or soemthing?
Quote from: Compositus Confusio
Are we not gentlemen, with open minds and sound reasoning?
It seems to me, that this quarrel between the two of us shall never be settled before the Day of Judgement, when I shall be sent to the Region of Thud to make Sinners into Mao buttons for Malaclypse the Elder to distribute.
Can we not set aside our differences, and embrace each other in friendship and brotherhood, my dear gnome?
...
And if your avatar doesn't stop winking at me...
...I shall have to think of something sophmoric.
Wha?!?!?!
Sorry, I got my brain washed last night and I am having trouble following
my train of thought.
What train? I don't see a train.
I am a gnome, not a deer. And keep your hands to yourself.
And if you do something sophmoric, well, how would that be different?
My avatar does not wink. That's just your imagination.
Actually, it only winks at the girl avatars.
Oh, look. Elephants! I wonder if they have some pie.
::wanders off in search of pie.::
Quote from: Grand Imam Horaba super inteligent monkey or soemthing?
All we could find was Bush.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam Horaba super inteligent monkey or soemthing?
All we could find was Bush.
well that's certainly a cut below the pipe smokign chess playing glasses and robe wearing oxford accented super intelligent moenkey i was on about ain't it?
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam Horaba super inteligent monkey or soemthing?
All we could find was Bush.
Well he is slightly smarter than the average chimpanzee... so it goes to show that you might need a super-intelligent human being... or the AI computer from Deus Ex
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Constantine?
The Roman Expansion destroyed the Roman republic. For this reason alone, empires are bad.
If that doesn't sell you, read Tacitus's Annals.
NO system that places a man above the law is good.
I tend to view Constantine not as a Roman Emperor, though he certainly controlled Rome, but as the first Emperor of the Byzantine empire.
Let's face it.
Crosses.
In the Sky.
On the sun.
In Hoc Singo Vinces...
Quote from: St. Trollax, ODDor the AI computer from Deus Ex
BAD MEMORIES!
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
Quote from: MedeoQuote from: St. Trollax, ODDor the AI computer from Deus Ex
BAD MEMORIES!
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
:lol:
I always followed tracer tong... even though that wasn't the way things worked for the sequel
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Constantine?
The Roman Expansion destroyed the Roman republic. For this reason alone, empires are bad.
If that doesn't sell you, read Tacitus's Annals.
NO system that places a man above the law is good.
I tend to view Constantine not as a Roman Emperor, though he certainly controlled Rome, but as the first Emperor of the Byzantine empire.
Let's face it.
Crosses.
In the Sky.
On the sun.
In Hoc Singo Vinces...
The Roman Empire wasn't divided until Valentinian, several years after Constantine's death.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: gnimbleyQuote from: St. Hugh, KSCSecond off, abuses happen when people are in positions of absolute power over others. It happens all over the world. (Not that that is an excuse.) It is not just an American problem. Passing the buck by pigeon-holing it to one national group, or by blanket-and-vapid statements about 'human nature(tm)' do absolutely fuck all.
In my opinion this sort of shit has been symptomatic of human relations for the past five thousand years across the globe. So it is no surprise, even though it is sickening.
You will be happy to know that according to Confused Cornflakes that the Romans did not engage in any such shit, so maybe we should emulate them and start up a republic, huh?
I never said that.
I said they got a bad wrap.
The Empire was okay.
On the whole, the Caesars were just a disaster, save for Augustus, Aurelius, and Vespasianus.
Constantine?
The Roman Expansion destroyed the Roman republic. For this reason alone, empires are bad.
If that doesn't sell you, read Tacitus's Annals.
NO system that places a man above the law is good.
I tend to view Constantine not as a Roman Emperor, though he certainly controlled Rome, but as the first Emperor of the Byzantine empire.
Let's face it.
Crosses.
In the Sky.
On the sun.
In Hoc Singo Vinces...
The Roman Empire wasn't divided until Valentinian, several years after Constantine's death.
It wasn't divided into seperate east and west, but when the center of power shifted from Rome in the west to Constantinople in the east, I consider that the birth of the Byzantine empire.
Either way constantine was a mysoginistic opportunist who would not have been a christian had not JHVH loved wars so much...
Quote from: St. Trollax, ODDEither way constantine was a mysoginistic opportunist who would not have been a christian had not JHVH loved wars so much...
...
Tibi ignosci, Magister.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerThe Good Reverend is feeling a whole lot of outrage right now, and that isn't an emotion that he's used to.
HAW HAW HAW! GET USED TO IT, WHITEBREAD! THIS AIN'T NOTHING NEW FOR YOU OPIES.
YOU BEEN DOING IT FOR CENTURIES.
BRAVE AMERICAN SOLDIERS ASS RAPE LITTLE KIDS! AND NOW THE NEWS!
CHEF,
ISN'T SUPRISED ONE BIT.
Quote from: ChefHAW HAW HAW! GET USED TO IT, WHITEBREAD! THIS AIN'T NOTHING NEW FOR YOU OPIES.
Watch who you're calling an Opie, Nadgoblin.
Guidio, what's a Nadgoblin?
Quote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: ChefHAW HAW HAW! GET USED TO IT, WHITEBREAD! THIS AIN'T NOTHING NEW FOR YOU OPIES.
Watch who you're calling an Opie, Nadgoblin.
THIS REVEREND ROGER FREAK REEKS OF THA OPIE.
WHINING LITTLE BEOTCH!
"WAH! MY GOVERNMENT DOES BAD THINGS!"
NO SHIT, SHERLOCK!
CHEF DIESEL,
LAUGHS AT PUNKS LIKE THAT.
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomGuidio, what's a Nadgoblin?
Depends on who you ask.; 'nad is often short for 'gonad' though.
Gotcha.
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomGotcha.
THAT GUINEA PAL OF YOURS SEEMS TO BE FIXATED ON THA NADS.
IT'S JUST POSSIBLE THAT HE MIGHT HAVE THA GHEY.
CHEF DIESEL,
IS 80% SURE HE HAS THA GHEY.
What sad days are these when passers-by may say 'Opie' to Good Reverend Roger.
Even those of use who sell Bullshit are under stress in these dark times.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioWhat sad days are these when passers-by may say 'Opie' to Good Reverend Roger.
Even those of use who sell Bullshit are under stress in these dark times.
WHOA, SON. THIS REVEREND ROGER AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT ANOTHER OPIE.
CHEF D,
ISN'T IMPRESSED.
Quote from: ChefQuote from: Compositus ConfusioWhat sad days are these when passers-by may say 'Opie' to Good Reverend Roger.
Even those of use who sell Bullshit are under stress in these dark times.
WHOA, SON. THIS REVEREND ROGER AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT ANOTHER OPIE.
CHEF D,
ISN'T IMPRESSED.
He's my Commander-in-Briefs.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: ChefQuote from: Compositus ConfusioWhat sad days are these when passers-by may say 'Opie' to Good Reverend Roger.
Even those of use who sell Bullshit are under stress in these dark times.
WHOA, SON. THIS REVEREND ROGER AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT ANOTHER OPIE.
CHEF D,
ISN'T IMPRESSED.
He's my Commander-in-Briefs.
YUO 2 DOIN' THE NASTY?
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/puke.gif)
Quote from: ChefQuote from: Compositus ConfusioQuote from: ChefQuote from: Compositus ConfusioWhat sad days are these when passers-by may say 'Opie' to Good Reverend Roger.
Even those of use who sell Bullshit are under stress in these dark times.
WHOA, SON. THIS REVEREND ROGER AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT ANOTHER OPIE.
CHEF D,
ISN'T IMPRESSED.
He's my Commander-in-Briefs.
YUO 2 DOIN' THE NASTY?
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/puke.gif)
No, but today is Semi-clothed Monday down at headquarters, which I why I'm calling in sick.
Ewwww.........I'd call in sick, too.
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomEwwww.........I'd call in sick, too.
It's not that bad. It's just there's this chick in HR who's givin' me googly eyes all the time.
Quote from: Compositus ConfusioIt's not that bad. It's just there's this chick in HR who's givin' me googly eyes all the time.
Uh. Dude. I don't think that's a chick. Last I checked, Roger didn't
have any chicks on the payroll.
Quote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Compositus ConfusioIt's not that bad. It's just there's this chick in HR who's givin' me googly eyes all the time.
Uh. Dude. I don't think that's a chick. Last I checked, Roger didn't have any chicks on the payroll.
HR's not on the payroll. They show up every day for the sadistic glee they garner from ruining others lives.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Grand Imam HorabQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeQuote from: Guido FinucciQuote from: Eighteen Buddha StrikeMaybe the best option is expatriation, but somehow I think the rabid nationalism that gave rise to the nazi party in germany wont work here, at least not quietly.
I may be missing what you said, but it sounds to me as if you think Americans aren't rabidly nationalistic.
If so, please excuse me while I give you an incredulous look for as long as it takes my mind to stop boggling.
Yes, many americans are rabidly nationalistic, but there is also a lot of counterculture that exists in america. Its not quite so easy to lump americans into one huge group that can all agree, because its quite the opposite.
So give someone else the silly look.
counterculture in america is manufactured adn packaged by the same folk whos brought you the establishment(tm).
This is the correct answer.
I dont believe that.
It's true. By the time a counter-culture becomes viable, it has been packaged, marketed, and sold by the very same people that brought you the establishment itself.
=~s/via/visi/, IMO.
Quote from: ChefQuote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomGotcha.
THAT GUINEA PAL OF YOURS SEEMS TO BE FIXATED ON THA NADS.
IT'S JUST POSSIBLE THAT HE MIGHT HAVE THA GHEY.
CHEF DIESEL,
IS 80% SURE HE HAS THA GHEY.
No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't
have tha ghey. The ghey is in my
garage, between the milk-crate full
of floopy drives and the barrel
labeled "FLAMMABLE: DO NOT DRINK
WHILE SMOKING". Or, at least, it
was the last time I checked.
Unless someone took advantage of
the lights being off for the Ritual
and stole it, of course.
Quote from: Deekoo L.Quote from: ChefQuote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomGotcha.
THAT GUINEA PAL OF YOURS SEEMS TO BE FIXATED ON THA NADS.
IT'S JUST POSSIBLE THAT HE MIGHT HAVE THA GHEY.
CHEF DIESEL,
IS 80% SURE HE HAS THA GHEY.
No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't
have tha ghey.
YOU'RE THE EXPERT.
Quote from: ChefQuote from: Deekoo L.Quote from: ChefQuote from: SssBella, Oracle of DoomGotcha.
THAT GUINEA PAL OF YOURS SEEMS TO BE FIXATED ON THA NADS.
IT'S JUST POSSIBLE THAT HE MIGHT HAVE THA GHEY.
CHEF DIESEL,
IS 80% SURE HE HAS THA GHEY.
No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't
have tha ghey.
YOU'RE THE EXPERT.
I am pleased that my expertise is
recognized. *evil.gryn*
!
No, I do not have thee ghey! All ov thee ghey is belong to thee9
Quote from: Eighteen Buddha Strike!
No, I do not have thee ghey! All ov thee ghey is belong to thee9
Who are "thee9"? It sounds like some totally AWESOME, RADICAL, and WITH-IT new PUNK-RAWK group!!! You know, the kind where everyone's been castrated and had their heads bleached some unnaturally annoying color. Where they sing about how they're 17 years old, and how school really SUCKS, and all their teachers are SO LAME, and fuck you for taking one look at them and realizing they're at least 25! Poser! The ones who wouldn't recognize an actual punk rock group if they were held down and forcefully tea-bagged by one.
You know, those ones.
thee9 ROCKS!!!!
(http://img47.photobucket.com/albums/v145/zombiezombiezombie/1F10JamesWoods.jpg)(http://www.itportal.it/tech/dvd/film/videodrome/2.jpg)
i thought ghey was clarified butter.
i wouldn't show up to partial clothes day either. stupid clothes.
na-ked hot tub! na-ked hot tub!
"CHEF DIESEL,
IS 80% SURE HE HAS THA GHEY."
chef, the confessional is over there. ~~>
For the last time, that's my bathroom, not the confessional. And if one more person walks in, start to use the toilet, and starts talking to me while I'm showering, I'm gonna Nuke the apartment (In a manner that involves hotplates and formaldahyde. Forgive spelling errors: I've had 3 hours of sleep in the last 3 days -- ah, the life of a delivery boy.)