Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: tyrannosaurus vex on September 11, 2012, 08:39:14 PM

Title: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on September 11, 2012, 08:39:14 PM
i can make out the dim outline of an idea in the distance, but i'm not sure the road i'm on will take me any closer to it than i am right now, so i'm going to transcribe the thing in its rough unidentified form.

i want to talk about intentions, and how people collectively make things happen. now, for some things (see: moon landing, etc) this is a valid pursuit. if a goal is clear-cut and scientifically definite, then there are clear steps to take in order to arrive there. everyone has a place in the machine that must be built to transport people from "we have not achieved" to "we have achieved" that goal.

more often, however, we are not concerned with scientifically precise definitions of where exactly we are heading, or where we want to head. the future is nebulous, and all we know about it is that it is not the present. and the way we know it is not the present is because the present is not where we want to be. in fact we have such a hazy, distorted, indefinite idea about the future that we often disagree on what it is and what it should be, and hence we often (as in almost always) disagree on how to get there, to one degree or another.

but, even if we cannot know the specifics of the future we want to build, i think it is still possible to be deliberate and even scientific in building it. the future is just what happens because of what is happening now. like The Machine™, which is just "what happens" as a result of what the people in it are doing, The Future is just "what happens" as a result of what's happening right now. the one thing all of us agree on about the future (if we are not fucking crazy, like the scientologists or the subgenii) is that it is supposed to be "better" than the present, somehow.

so, it would seem to me that if you want your future to be better, even if you have no idea "how" to make it better, you would start by improving your present. surrounding yourself with People instead of Assholes. forcing yourself to not hate getting up in the morning. finding something about your day that makes you smile. that kind of hippie bullshit. any collection of humans is going to give rise to something: it always happens, without exception. whether that "something" is good or bad is determined by the same principles that determine whether The Machine is good or bad, only on a smaller scale.

so maybe we can build a future, a better future, by using accidents and coincidences, on purpose.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Verbal Mike on September 18, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
After having this open in a tab for a week, I finally properly read it.
And it's a good thought. A very good thought.

I'd also add that it's fine and even important to do more than just the small stuff. Big ideas, big plans, programs, policies. But you have to try to remember you're doing it for something, and not fall too in love with the idea to drop it if it turns bad. And never, ever, give in to the temptation to believe you've found the one perfect way to fix the world – always be open to new, better ideas.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Kai on September 18, 2012, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 11, 2012, 08:39:14 PM
i can make out the dim outline of an idea in the distance, but i'm not sure the road i'm on will take me any closer to it than i am right now, so i'm going to transcribe the thing in its rough unidentified form.

i want to talk about intentions, and how people collectively make things happen. now, for some things (see: moon landing, etc) this is a valid pursuit. if a goal is clear-cut and scientifically definite, then there are clear steps to take in order to arrive there. everyone has a place in the machine that must be built to transport people from "we have not achieved" to "we have achieved" that goal.

more often, however, we are not concerned with scientifically precise definitions of where exactly we are heading, or where we want to head. the future is nebulous, and all we know about it is that it is not the present. and the way we know it is not the present is because the present is not where we want to be. in fact we have such a hazy, distorted, indefinite idea about the future that we often disagree on what it is and what it should be, and hence we often (as in almost always) disagree on how to get there, to one degree or another.

but, even if we cannot know the specifics of the future we want to build, i think it is still possible to be deliberate and even scientific in building it. the future is just what happens because of what is happening now. like The Machine™, which is just "what happens" as a result of what the people in it are doing, The Future is just "what happens" as a result of what's happening right now. the one thing all of us agree on about the future (if we are not fucking crazy, like the scientologists or the subgenii) is that it is supposed to be "better" than the present, somehow.

so, it would seem to me that if you want your future to be better, even if you have no idea "how" to make it better, you would start by improving your present. surrounding yourself with People instead of Assholes. forcing yourself to not hate getting up in the morning. finding something about your day that makes you smile. that kind of hippie bullshit. any collection of humans is going to give rise to something: it always happens, without exception. whether that "something" is good or bad is determined by the same principles that determine whether The Machine is good or bad, only on a smaller scale.

so maybe we can build a future, a better future, by using accidents and coincidences, on purpose.

Why is it that the stuff in the second to last paragraph is often called "hippy bullshit", as if personal happiness doesn't go a long way in promoting creative progress?
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on September 18, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on September 18, 2012, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 11, 2012, 08:39:14 PM
i can make out the dim outline of an idea in the distance, but i'm not sure the road i'm on will take me any closer to it than i am right now, so i'm going to transcribe the thing in its rough unidentified form.

i want to talk about intentions, and how people collectively make things happen. now, for some things (see: moon landing, etc) this is a valid pursuit. if a goal is clear-cut and scientifically definite, then there are clear steps to take in order to arrive there. everyone has a place in the machine that must be built to transport people from "we have not achieved" to "we have achieved" that goal.

more often, however, we are not concerned with scientifically precise definitions of where exactly we are heading, or where we want to head. the future is nebulous, and all we know about it is that it is not the present. and the way we know it is not the present is because the present is not where we want to be. in fact we have such a hazy, distorted, indefinite idea about the future that we often disagree on what it is and what it should be, and hence we often (as in almost always) disagree on how to get there, to one degree or another.

but, even if we cannot know the specifics of the future we want to build, i think it is still possible to be deliberate and even scientific in building it. the future is just what happens because of what is happening now. like The Machine™, which is just "what happens" as a result of what the people in it are doing, The Future is just "what happens" as a result of what's happening right now. the one thing all of us agree on about the future (if we are not fucking crazy, like the scientologists or the subgenii) is that it is supposed to be "better" than the present, somehow.

so, it would seem to me that if you want your future to be better, even if you have no idea "how" to make it better, you would start by improving your present. surrounding yourself with People instead of Assholes. forcing yourself to not hate getting up in the morning. finding something about your day that makes you smile. that kind of hippie bullshit. any collection of humans is going to give rise to something: it always happens, without exception. whether that "something" is good or bad is determined by the same principles that determine whether The Machine is good or bad, only on a smaller scale.

so maybe we can build a future, a better future, by using accidents and coincidences, on purpose.

Why is it that the stuff in the second to last paragraph is often called "hippy bullshit", as if personal happiness doesn't go a long way in promoting creative progress?

It's because a lot of people write that off as "obvious" and scoff when it's suggested in good faith. Which is weird, because a lot of people also fail to follow that advice. I know people who will go on and on about light and love, but they're surrounded by people who frustrate them and they never have anything positive to say. They "want to be positive" but they're always "held in negativity by somebody."

But tell somebody to just stop being so fucking negative, and it's like you've just dropped a piano on their foot. You're spewing "hippie bullshit."
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Kai on September 18, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 18, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on September 18, 2012, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 11, 2012, 08:39:14 PM
i can make out the dim outline of an idea in the distance, but i'm not sure the road i'm on will take me any closer to it than i am right now, so i'm going to transcribe the thing in its rough unidentified form.

i want to talk about intentions, and how people collectively make things happen. now, for some things (see: moon landing, etc) this is a valid pursuit. if a goal is clear-cut and scientifically definite, then there are clear steps to take in order to arrive there. everyone has a place in the machine that must be built to transport people from "we have not achieved" to "we have achieved" that goal.

more often, however, we are not concerned with scientifically precise definitions of where exactly we are heading, or where we want to head. the future is nebulous, and all we know about it is that it is not the present. and the way we know it is not the present is because the present is not where we want to be. in fact we have such a hazy, distorted, indefinite idea about the future that we often disagree on what it is and what it should be, and hence we often (as in almost always) disagree on how to get there, to one degree or another.

but, even if we cannot know the specifics of the future we want to build, i think it is still possible to be deliberate and even scientific in building it. the future is just what happens because of what is happening now. like The Machine™, which is just "what happens" as a result of what the people in it are doing, The Future is just "what happens" as a result of what's happening right now. the one thing all of us agree on about the future (if we are not fucking crazy, like the scientologists or the subgenii) is that it is supposed to be "better" than the present, somehow.

so, it would seem to me that if you want your future to be better, even if you have no idea "how" to make it better, you would start by improving your present. surrounding yourself with People instead of Assholes. forcing yourself to not hate getting up in the morning. finding something about your day that makes you smile. that kind of hippie bullshit. any collection of humans is going to give rise to something: it always happens, without exception. whether that "something" is good or bad is determined by the same principles that determine whether The Machine is good or bad, only on a smaller scale.

so maybe we can build a future, a better future, by using accidents and coincidences, on purpose.

Why is it that the stuff in the second to last paragraph is often called "hippy bullshit", as if personal happiness doesn't go a long way in promoting creative progress?

It's because a lot of people write that off as "obvious" and scoff when it's suggested in good faith. Which is weird, because a lot of people also fail to follow that advice. I know people who will go on and on about light and love, but they're surrounded by people who frustrate them and they never have anything positive to say. They "want to be positive" but they're always "held in negativity by somebody."

But tell somebody to just stop being so fucking negative, and it's like you've just dropped a piano on their foot. You're spewing "hippie bullshit."

Negativity seems to be self perpetuated, rather than forced by conditions. I have an ex who would tell me "the world is against me", but mostly her problems were a negative attitude, clumsiness, poor choice in friends, bad eating and sleeping habits, and codependency.

But I remember when my master's adviser told me, "you have to choose to be happy" (even though I now know that he meant all the things you mentioned and more), at the time I was offended. Who put him on some pillar and made him the Happiness Guru!? How could he possibly be able to relate to my life and how does that even work anyway?! Choose to be happy, BAH! But I know better, now.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: AFK on September 19, 2012, 12:35:20 PM
I don't know a single person who likes being told they are being too negative.  It's always a landmine, and generally, I think, something someone needs to discover on their own.  But maybe their are ways to nudge them in that direction.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 19, 2012, 12:49:50 PM
Speaking as someone who's dealt with clinical grade depression and (for the most part) knocked that bitch into touch. My mantra was that dumbass "look out for mister in between" song. Try explaining that to someone who's on their third suicide attempt this week and see where it get ya.

Serious as cancer, tho, depression is just a negative point of view that gets a hold of you. One solution is to concentrate on the positive point of view until that gets a hold of you instead.

Easier said than done. Seemed worth the effort at the time, tho, given the alternatives all involved ropes and razor blades.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Verbal Mike on September 19, 2012, 01:59:29 PM
I've only experienced mild depression, but it's come again and again over the past couple of years, and I don't feel it's a negative point of view getting hold of me. Rather, it's a thing that drags me down to a point where I keep having negative thoughts, about anything and everything, and find it hard to think of anything positive, even when I try.

I used to just be generally very negative, years ago, and I think that oddly enough reading PUA bullshit helped me figure this stuff out, because of the emphasis on being positive – not trying to look intelligent by criticizing random things, but rather trying to look enthusiastic by going on about awesome stuff. Over time I just came to realize that having positive conversations makes me and those around me feel good, and having negative conversations does the opposite. And I try to focus on the positive side whenever I feel the need to give someone a nudge in that direction – I don't say "be less negative", I say "focus on positive stuff". It's annoying but not as annoying as telling you to stop being negative.

Anyhoo, lunch ready, bai.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 19, 2012, 08:34:46 PM
Changing your thinking can cure depression, but it doesn't always cure depression, because depression isn't always caused by negative thought patterns. In my opinion, it is a dangerous, dangerous mistake to ascribe a single cause and a single cure, especially when both involve the potential imposition of value judgements.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Verbal Mike on September 19, 2012, 08:41:43 PM
In my case, the thing that usually drags me down in the first place is getting too caught up trying to figure out what the one thing is that's making me feel off or down. I end up going over and over all kinds of thoughts that bother me until I can hardly stop, even when I notice what's going on and recall the lessons of past bouts. And of course, realizing *that*, while it's going on, depresses me even more. It's a mean, mean illness.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on September 19, 2012, 08:49:32 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 19, 2012, 08:34:46 PM
Changing your thinking can cure depression, but it doesn't always cure depression, because depression isn't always caused by negative thought patterns. In my opinion, it is a dangerous, dangerous mistake to ascribe a single cause and a single cure, especially when both involve the potential imposition of value judgements.

That's all true. There's a lot of nuance in any psychological condition and depression is no exception. But I think the discussion has kind of focused on the "think positive" thing which is only a part of my original statement. There's a lot that goes into being happy and improving your life, and forcing yourself to act positive is just part of it. And I'm no expert because I get glum and grumpy a lot too when I really shouldn't.

There's a lot that goes into building something positive out of life even when it isn't objectively shitty. People who have serious, unavoidable problems in their lives aren't going to benefit from some wacko belief that it's all in their head, because a lot of the time it isn't "in your head." It's real and it's shit other people have control over and you don't. But that's where the broader suggestions come into focus. As painful, difficult and seemingly impossible as it might be, the first thing you have to do is make sure there really is something positive to focus on. It can't be just a picture of a unicorn that has no basis in reality. There has to be something tangible and if that means you have to completely fuck yourself out of every comfort zone you have, then that's what you have to do.

I say, like I'm some kind of trained life coach (I'm not, I know I'm not, and I hope nobody thinks that's what I'm claiming to be). It's just what has worked for me before. If everything around you is teetering on the brink of disaster, sometimes you just have to push all that shit over the edge and see where it lands. I've used the "nuclear option" of completely losing touch with every single person in my life twice in my 30 years. It's uncomfortable. It hurts. But it's also temporary. It isn't about teaching anyone else you don't need them, it's about teaching yourself you don't depend on any circumstance that makes you feel like shit.

ANYWAY THIS ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A SELF-HELP THREAD

It's about creativity and how Great Big Awesome Things usually happen by accident, but with (relatively) identifiable ingredients. If you stick 5 people who can communicate well and aren't afraid to Dream Big in a room, they'll usually produce something awesome. It might be a Thing, or just a discussion, and it may never live up to what they wanted to create, but it'll blow the pants off anything 5 random schmucks who can't quit kicking each other's baggage could ever imagine.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Ayotollah of Ass on September 20, 2012, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 19, 2012, 08:49:32 PM
It's about creativity and how Great Big Awesome Things usually happen by accident, but with (relatively) identifiable ingredients. If you stick 5 people who can communicate well and aren't afraid to Dream Big in a room, they'll usually produce something awesome. It might be a Thing, or just a discussion, and it may never live up to what they wanted to create, but it'll blow the pants off anything 5 random schmucks who can't quit kicking each other's baggage could ever imagine.

Counter-example: I once worked in an advertising agency. I can guarantee every ad campaign has at least 5 people that all fancy themselves to be the creme a la creme of humanity's communicating class, all of them dream of creating the "Big Idea", the advertising campaign that lives on as an archetype of awesome in their little advertising world. They tend to be pretty smart people too. Yet, Sturgeon's Law applies everywhere.

While I agree with the drift of this thread that you need to cut nay-saying assholes out of your life (saying this as someone that has a bit of a nay-saying asshole facet of myself that I need to keep on a fucking leash), there is equally a need to be on the watch for an ethic that puts "let's just keep it positive" above everything else. Nothing is worse for creativity where everything is permitted, no critical words are said and everyone is just trying to get along and be positive.

The cure for both ills, in my view, is the truth. And one hard truth is that life isn't always headed for the better, neither for humanity or for individuals.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Don Coyote on September 20, 2012, 07:53:05 PM
Just an FYI your avatar is NSFW.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Ayotollah of Ass on September 20, 2012, 08:06:28 PM
Quote from: Guru Qu1x073 on September 20, 2012, 07:53:05 PM
Just an FYI your avatar is NSFW.

Fixed. Thanks to you and Cain for pointing out the problem. Not something I normally think about.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 20, 2012, 08:06:31 PM
Didn't someone recently post a link to a study on the power of pessimistic thinking? Oh wait, no, that was my FBF. I need to find that. Apparently, people who think too positively fare worse in many ways than people who are more negative. I like to think that critical thinking has something to do with this, as being critical is often seen as negative, pessimistic, a "downer", but in reality exploring potential negative outcomes and remaining grounded in reality rather than sailing off into hopeful/wishful thinking can not only head off negative consequences, but also means that when you do take a risk, you take a GOOD risk.

Here it is: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opinion/sunday/the-positive-power-of-negative-thinking.html

This article was interesting because some of the most abject failures I know are the people who do incredibly stupid things because they "choose to believe it will work out". Positive thinking at its finest. These people also seem more prone to depression, possibly because they are constantly having their hopes dashed by reality.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Cain on September 20, 2012, 10:28:14 PM
Which is interesting in and of itself, since there was a study a couple of years back which showed depressed people (as in, clinically depressed) tended to have a more accurate worldview and make more realistic assessments about things.  Depression made people more precise and accurate thinkers.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on September 20, 2012, 11:00:30 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 20, 2012, 10:28:14 PM
Which is interesting in and of itself, since there was a study a couple of years back which showed depressed people (as in, clinically depressed) tended to have a more accurate worldview and make more realistic assessments about things.  Depression made people more precise and accurate thinkers.

That's because the more terrible you believe the world is, the closer you are to the Truth.

But this does not negate the fact that having a group of Eeyores and Marvins pissing and moaning all day long is not going to lead anywhere spectacular, unless you're a huge fan of Emo music.

Wait, that's what I'm going to call my new band: Eeyores and Marvins.

YOU PEOPLE ARE GENIUSES! See? What did I tell you!?
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 21, 2012, 12:22:10 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 20, 2012, 08:06:31 PM
Didn't someone recently post a link to a study on the power of pessimistic thinking? Oh wait, no, that was my FBF. I need to find that. Apparently, people who think too positively fare worse in many ways than people who are more negative. I like to think that critical thinking has something to do with this, as being critical is often seen as negative, pessimistic, a "downer", but in reality exploring potential negative outcomes and remaining grounded in reality rather than sailing off into hopeful/wishful thinking can not only head off negative consequences, but also means that when you do take a risk, you take a GOOD risk.

Here it is: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opinion/sunday/the-positive-power-of-negative-thinking.html

This article was interesting because some of the most abject failures I know are the people who do incredibly stupid things because they "choose to believe it will work out". Positive thinking at its finest. These people also seem more prone to depression, possibly because they are constantly having their hopes dashed by reality.

Nothing pisses me off more than people who bring positive thinking into my workplace.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 21, 2012, 08:55:30 AM
Negative - there's no fucking point trying it'll all end up shit anyway

Positive - don't worry everything will work out fine in the end

Pragmatic - aint going to be easy. X, y and z are against us but if we don't try it'll never happen and at least we got a, b and c in our favour


I stand corrected - I wasn't taking about positive thinking after all
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2012, 01:36:15 PM
Like most woo, positive thinking has gotten way out of hand.  I like to think of myself as rationally optimistic, in a sort of risk-seeking way.

Negative: There's a 100% chance it won't work.
Positive: There's a 100% chance it will work.
Rational: There's a 63% chance it won't work, so it probably won't.
Rational Optimist: There's a 37% chance it will work, and we should take that risk because of the possible benefits.


Or something.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 21, 2012, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 21, 2012, 01:36:15 PM
Like most woo, positive thinking has gotten way out of hand.  I like to think of myself as rationally optimistic, in a sort of risk-seeking way.

Negative: There's a 100% chance it won't work.
Positive: There's a 100% chance it will work.
Rational: There's a 63% chance it won't work, so it probably won't.
Rational Optimist: There's a 37% chance it will work, and we should take that risk because of the possible benefits.


Or something.

We're going to do X.

During X, expect delays, as factors Y & Z can (and therefore will) impact the job.

During X, expect extra costs (budget for them) incurred by Y & Z.

Do X.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2012, 05:56:10 PM
ITT, Roger kicks the Planning Fallacy in the nads.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 21, 2012, 06:02:11 PM
The way I look at it is, if you know your risks, you can take steps to alleviate them. It is also beneficial to be aware of your realistic worst case scenario.

Example: I need a new porch. Cost for building a new porch is about $8k. I don't have $8k. I could put it all on a credit card, but that is a poor investment. I could do a rough cost/benefit analysis and use some of my financial aid money to replace the floorboards, which will not resolve the problem of needing a full rebuild, but will alleviate my liability risk at a relatively minimal cost. Drawback: I also need new tires. Porch floorboards and new tires are about the same cost. Liability from someone falling through the porch is probably a lower risk than a freeway blowout or an accident in the rain with poor tread.

Solution: Use credit card to buy tires, use financial aid money to replace floorboards. Worry about mortgage later.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: LMNO on September 21, 2012, 06:06:27 PM
And lo, everything turned out for the best. In some sense.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 21, 2012, 06:27:03 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 21, 2012, 05:56:10 PM
ITT, Roger kicks the Planning Fallacy in the nads.

Now, if only I could get Filthy Assistant on board.  :lulz:

But that actually applies to just about anything, if you change the words around a little.


Joe wants to try doing stand up comedy.

He's inexperienced, and is reasonably sure he'll bomb, at least the first time out.

Joe psychs himself up to go out and make it happen, no matter what the audience does.  Plans to do something exciting immediately afterward, to get rid of that awful feeling, so that he'll have the guts to try again.

Joe tries doing stand up comedy.
Title: Re: undeveloped thought #655321B
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 21, 2012, 06:41:42 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 21, 2012, 06:06:27 PM
And lo, everything turned out for the best. In some sense.

That's HOW you get things to turn out for the best, IMO. And if I didn't have financial aid or credit cards, I would take the ghetto road (I CAN SAY THAT BECAUSE I AM BLACK) and nail a piece of plywood over my rotting floorboards, and go to Double J Tire Center. Which I might do anyway.

I know a lot of diehard positive-thinkers who would charge up their credit card to pay for the porch and drop $600 on new tires, believing that it will just turn out OK, or, conversely, would ignore both problems for the same reason. Being aware of shit what might go wrong is the first step in fixing it, and IMO those "secret"-believing mofuckers have a tendency to ignore the negative until it's a problem too big to ignore.