It's that time of year when Bill O and others across the country get all frothed up about the War on Christmas. They're all Grinched up because some municipalities want to call their Christmas Tree a Holiday Tree and they put up signs that say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.
Besides it being a rather petty and pointless argument, what I don't get is how they can ignore the actual War on Christmas that has been waged for a long time now. One that Christmas has lost, and lost badly.
It is the War on Christmas that was depicted by Charles Schultz decades ago so poignantly in A Charlie Brown Christmas. The siege laid upon Christmas by Commercialism.
Of course, I am not exactly Mr. Christian here. The true meaning of Christmas, the birth of Jesus, I left that party behind a long time ago. However, I can still appreciate and respect it as it ties in with spending quality time with family. For me, that was always the spirit of Christmas. Having some quiet time with family and enjoying each others company. The shopping, gift giving, BS, I can do without.
But I don't understand why the Bill O's of the world don't take THAT enemy on? Look at what Commercialism has done to Christmas? Look at how people trample over each other on Black Friday to get a $30 toaster oven. Look at how much people stress out about getting The Perfect Gift. How does that line up with the true meaning of Christmas? How does THAT celebrate the birth of Jesus? Did Baby Jesus, upon being born declare, "Now, in honor of me, go buy a Cuisinart?"
I think if they are going to fight a war for Christmas, they should forget about trying to defeat political correctness. I mean, really, who cares. But how about going after Wal-Mart and Hallmark, and Sears for turning what should be a calm, relaxed celebration with friends and family into a big ball of plastique stress fail!
All my comments on this topic can be found at http://www.fuckchristmas.org/
JESUS WANTS YOU TO GO SHOPPING!
\
:oilpig:
I really like this, and I was going to post something somewhat similar.
Technically, I'm Roman Catholic. I had the Holy Vaseline™ smeared on my forehead when I was 13 thus resulting in a cross-shaped zit farm that lasted for a week. Obviously, I haven't been to church in a long ass time, in fact, my family stopped going to mass shortly after my Confirmation, and I think my last time actually going to one myself I was 16, and visiting my family in New York.
Since then, I've been in a Catholic Church ONCE, and that was during a friend's wedding...and I hit that Holy Water and genuflected like I was a goddamn pro, only to get chastised by my sister for even attempting it. I didn't do it because I wanted it, I did it out of some brainwashed ritual, sure, but I don't feel BAD that I did it. To me, that's proper behavior in a church, and I don't see why me NOT doing it is some sort of protest to God or whomever the hell is up there. The Holy Water didn't set me on fire, the idea of being inside of the church didn't make me hiss...Nothing bad happened.
I found my rosary the other day when I was hastily looking for gold jewelry to be rid of so I could somehow afford Christmas and get the selfish monkeys in my life their holiday cheer through wrapping paper and chotskies, and I had to take a minute to pause.
It's nothing special: Just milky pink plastic beads strung in the typical fashion of one Our Father and ten Hail Marys ten times and finishing with a single bead for the Glory Be, 3 more Hail Marys, another Our Father and the cheap metal crucifix for the Apostle's Creed, which was attached by a pink string my mom had to fix it with. It brought back memories a bit...I had gotten it for my First Reconciliation (For you non-Catholic folk, it's the first confession you make about a month before your First Communion...one of the Sacraments.) and I remember how disappointed I was with it. It's ugly, it's pink and PLASTIC with cheap metal...and my mom has this pretty one with shimmering labradorite and pearl beads and sterling silver that I wanted. Blah.
...Materialistic. I was being materialistic over a ROSARY. A symbol of prayer and peace. You don't even need to technically own one to pray it, for fuck's sake! There are places in this world where faith really matters, far more than I could ever imagine, and there children will never own a rosary, not even a shitty plastic one like mine, and yet will put more effort into saying those prayers than I ever did, and even pay attention to every little mystery prayer in between that I never bothered to memorize. Heck, I hated saying the rosary, it was work. Even one decade of it as a penance would make me groan. These kids don't have parents running into Wal-Mart at 4am the day after Thanksgiving to buy them gifts on the cheap, they're lucky if they'll even get some semblance of a Christmas dinner...but I bet your ass they'll be at Midnight Mass.
I kinda miss Christmas mass, and for anyone who's ever been to a Catholic or Orthodox Christmas mass know EXACTLY what I mean. It's a celebration, with incense and candles and some of the most beautiful decorations you'll ever see! The atmosphere with the music and the carols...That was such an important part of Christmas when I was kid that we totally took for granted, because we only cared about our presents rather than feeling the faith. I don't care if you're Discordian, or an atheist or a fully devoted Hellenismos or even a goddamn Wiccan...stick your head in a Catholic church during Christmas and check it out.
It's not about Jesus or God or how much the church sucks or Christianity as a whole sucks because of this and that, it's just about the season and the feeling you're supposed to get that we seem to have forgotten so much about. The sun setting at 4pm in December SUCKS, THAT is why every single ancient and modern religion has some sort of festival in December. It's supposed to make you feel better about life in dark times...And Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah/Zeus/Zarathustra what have you knows damn well I've had my fair share of dark times lately.
Maybe that's why I found the rosary...Maybe it was a sign from God, or maybe it was just my existence going, "Hey, take a step back and realize WTF you're doing...Stop being greedy and take a chill pill, homegirl."
Long story short, I put the ugly ass old rosary up on the wall, and went to go cash in my gold...and they were only going to give me $26 for it all, because throughout the years, my family members had given me fake or cheap stuff they passed off as real for Christmas gifts. :evilmad:
tl;dr = Fuck commercialism.
First off, that was really well written. There is a mad, ugly dash to prove how much you love your family, and dollars spent means more points on the passive/agressive scoreboard. Much better to light a fire and curl up with a loved one, sharing your emotions. I don't need more
things, I need more
time.
That much said,
Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 03:08:31 PM
Long story short, I put the ugly ass old rosary up on the wall, and went to go cash in my gold...and they were only going to give me $26 for it all, because throughout the years, my family members had given me fake or cheap stuff they passed off as real for Christmas gifts. :evilmad:
Wrap those things up in cellophane and regift them back to the people who gave them to you.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 15, 2010, 03:22:49 PM
First off, that was really well written. There is a mad, ugly dash to prove how much you love your family, and dollars spent means more points on the passive/agressive scoreboard. Much better to light a fire and curl up with a loved one, sharing your emotions. I don't need more things, I need more time.
That much said,
Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 03:08:31 PM
Long story short, I put the ugly ass old rosary up on the wall, and went to go cash in my gold...and they were only going to give me $26 for it all, because throughout the years, my family members had given me fake or cheap stuff they passed off as real for Christmas gifts. :evilmad:
Wrap those things up in cellophane and regift them back to the people who gave them to you.
You know, part of me wants to...but the rest doesn't. It's not worth the fights that will ensue.
And thanks for the compliment, I wasn't sure how a story about me actually bringing up my Catholicism would be received on this board.
To RWHN and Suu, :mittens:
LMNO, time, yes the best thing of all. Time, especially with family is priceless.
The biggest nail in the coffin of a Christian Christmas was Dickens' "A Christmas Carol", which strangely enough revitalized the holiday when it was dying off... I may be mistaken here, but I don't think Christ is even mentioned in the text. It is portrayed as a secular holiday, and I love it for that.
I also love the commercialization of Christmas, and hope it becomes even more extreme in the future, sorry Suu.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 15, 2010, 06:27:08 PM
The biggest nail in the coffin of a Christian Christmas was Dickens' "A Christmas Carol", which strangely enough revitalized the holiday when it was dying off... I may be mistaken here, but I don't think Christ is even mentioned in the text. It is portrayed as a secular holiday, and I love it for that.
I also love the commercialization of Christmas, and hope it becomes even more extreme in the future, sorry Suu.
The best selling Christmas song was written by a Jew and doesn't mention Christ at all.
White Christmas
Irving Berlin
Crosby's "White Christmas" single has been credited with selling 50 million copies, the most by any release and therefore it is the biggest-selling single worldwide of all time. The Guinness Book of World Records 2009 Edition lists the song as a 100-million seller, encompassing all versions of the song, including albums.[3][4] Crosby's holiday collection Merry Christmas was first released as an LP in 1949, and has never been out-of-print since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Christmas_%28song%29
This year, let's put the "X" back in Xmas!
:lmnuendo:
Quote from: Hoopla on December 15, 2010, 06:27:08 PM
The biggest nail in the coffin of a Christian Christmas was Dickens' "A Christmas Carol", which strangely enough revitalized the holiday when it was dying off... I may be mistaken here, but I don't think Christ is even mentioned in the text. It is portrayed as a secular holiday, and I love it for that.
I also love the commercialization of Christmas, and hope it becomes even more extreme in the future, sorry Suu.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 15, 2010, 06:31:55 PM
This year, let's put the "X" back in Xmas!
:lmnuendo:
Well, if you go and get Gene Simmons involved, it
will become more extremely commercialized. ;)
Quote from: Suu on December 15, 2010, 03:08:31 PM
I really like this, and I was going to post something somewhat similar.
Technically, I'm Roman Catholic. I had the Holy Vaseline™ smeared on my forehead when I was 13 thus resulting in a cross-shaped zit farm that lasted for a week. Obviously, I haven't been to church in a long ass time, in fact, my family stopped going to mass shortly after my Confirmation, and I think my last time actually going to one myself I was 16, and visiting my family in New York.
Since then, I've been in a Catholic Church ONCE, and that was during a friend's wedding...and I hit that Holy Water and genuflected like I was a goddamn pro, only to get chastised by my sister for even attempting it. I didn't do it because I wanted it, I did it out of some brainwashed ritual, sure, but I don't feel BAD that I did it. To me, that's proper behavior in a church, and I don't see why me NOT doing it is some sort of protest to God or whomever the hell is up there. The Holy Water didn't set me on fire, the idea of being inside of the church didn't make me hiss...Nothing bad happened.
I found my rosary the other day when I was hastily looking for gold jewelry to be rid of so I could somehow afford Christmas and get the selfish monkeys in my life their holiday cheer through wrapping paper and chotskies, and I had to take a minute to pause.
It's nothing special: Just milky pink plastic beads strung in the typical fashion of one Our Father and ten Hail Marys ten times and finishing with a single bead for the Glory Be, 3 more Hail Marys, another Our Father and the cheap metal crucifix for the Apostle's Creed, which was attached by a pink string my mom had to fix it with. It brought back memories a bit...I had gotten it for my First Reconciliation (For you non-Catholic folk, it's the first confession you make about a month before your First Communion...one of the Sacraments.) and I remember how disappointed I was with it. It's ugly, it's pink and PLASTIC with cheap metal...and my mom has this pretty one with shimmering labradorite and pearl beads and sterling silver that I wanted. Blah.
...Materialistic. I was being materialistic over a ROSARY. A symbol of prayer and peace. You don't even need to technically own one to pray it, for fuck's sake! There are places in this world where faith really matters, far more than I could ever imagine, and there children will never own a rosary, not even a shitty plastic one like mine, and yet will put more effort into saying those prayers than I ever did, and even pay attention to every little mystery prayer in between that I never bothered to memorize. Heck, I hated saying the rosary, it was work. Even one decade of it as a penance would make me groan. These kids don't have parents running into Wal-Mart at 4am the day after Thanksgiving to buy them gifts on the cheap, they're lucky if they'll even get some semblance of a Christmas dinner...but I bet your ass they'll be at Midnight Mass.
I kinda miss Christmas mass, and for anyone who's ever been to a Catholic or Orthodox Christmas mass know EXACTLY what I mean. It's a celebration, with incense and candles and some of the most beautiful decorations you'll ever see! The atmosphere with the music and the carols...That was such an important part of Christmas when I was kid that we totally took for granted, because we only cared about our presents rather than feeling the faith. I don't care if you're Discordian, or an atheist or a fully devoted Hellenismos or even a goddamn Wiccan...stick your head in a Catholic church during Christmas and check it out.
It's not about Jesus or God or how much the church sucks or Christianity as a whole sucks because of this and that, it's just about the season and the feeling you're supposed to get that we seem to have forgotten so much about. The sun setting at 4pm in December SUCKS, THAT is why every single ancient and modern religion has some sort of festival in December. It's supposed to make you feel better about life in dark times...And Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah/Zeus/Zarathustra what have you knows damn well I've had my fair share of dark times lately.
Maybe that's why I found the rosary...Maybe it was a sign from God, or maybe it was just my existence going, "Hey, take a step back and realize WTF you're doing...Stop being greedy and take a chill pill, homegirl."
Long story short, I put the ugly ass old rosary up on the wall, and went to go cash in my gold...and they were only going to give me $26 for it all, because throughout the years, my family members had given me fake or cheap stuff they passed off as real for Christmas gifts. :evilmad:
tl;dr = Fuck commercialism.
:mittens: :mittens: :mittens: :mittens: :mittens: :mittens: :mittens:
It's for these reasons that I keep all of my rosaries, I still wear St. Christopher, I still carry St. Bernadette and St. Jude in my wallet, and I still have a crucifix on my wall. I do still attend mass on Easter and Christmas. I say all the prayers at mass, I genuflect, I perform the gestures. If I'm feeling particularly "in the mood", I'll partake of the Eucharist. Partially, because of it's expected of me. But for the most part, I do it, because these things were all part of my life in a simpler, happier time. I was damn glad to have my shitty little plastic rosary, because it was my first one, and I still have it now, though I also have two nicer ones. I've lost more crucifixes and St. Christopher medals than anyone I know. And I always replace them when I do, even after I left the Church. Maybe it's selfish, and maybe it's so some people will leave me alone about religion. But it's also, reminding myself that I CAN be a better person, and for all the problems with the Church, they were teaching some things correctly.
Erm, sorry, that wasn't exactly related to the primary topic.
There's nothing wrong with wearing a religious symbol. Religion is a creation of man so that the unexplained may have answers, and it gives the mind hope of salvation and the comfort of faith.
It's not about war or who's prophet is better at telling the same story...It's just helping the ever-so-curious brilliant human mind find peace.
...Unfortunately, we're all still far more primal that anyone dare give us credit for, and our greed and modern secular way of living has destroyed what true faith may have been like. We have allowed commercialism and capitalism to get the best of us...and there's not really a whole lot we can do about it anymore. I mean, here I am bitching, but that didn't stop me from buying the folks gifts or asking for a Kindle for Christmas.
My post was more about taking that step back and going, "Whoa, Linus was right." and just try to remember why we celebrate what we do in this season. It's not just Christmas or Chanukah or Saturnalia/Natali Invicti/Mithra...This is the darkest time of the year for the Northern Hemisphere. Dark and cold...So party with your family and friends, light lots of candles to fend of the darkness, eat lots of special food, and have a good time.
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 01:31:04 AM
There's nothing wrong with wearing a religious symbol. Religion is a creation of man so that the unexplained may have answers, and it gives the mind hope of salvation and the comfort of faith.
It's not about war or who's prophet is better at telling the same story...It's just helping the ever-so-curious brilliant human mind find peace.
Yes, I agree. I meant that the religious symbols remind me of the good to be found within the Church and other organized religions. And many times I see it as prominently as the bad. :)
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 01:31:04 AM
...Unfortunately, we're all still far more primal that anyone dare give us credit for, and our greed and modern secular way of living has destroyed what true faith may have been like. We have allowed commercialism and capitalism to get the best of us...and there's not really a whole lot we can do about it anymore. I mean, here I am bitching, but that didn't stop me from buying the folks gifts or asking for a Kindle for Christmas.
My post was more about taking that step back and going, "Whoa, Linus was right." and just try to remember why we celebrate what we do in this season. It's not just Christmas or Chanukah or Saturnalia/Natali Invicti/Mithra...This is the darkest time of the year for the Northern Hemisphere. Dark and cold...So party with your family and friends, light lots of candles to fend of the darkness, eat lots of special food, and have a good time.
Yeah, I realize my rant got way off the original point you were getting at. I did apologize for it. :wink:
And I agree with you here, too. It's cold and dark and scary now, so we should all be with those we care about and not have to fucking worry about whether or not they will like whatever stupid junk we're buying for them, but I still bought my beloved gifts, and I am looking for a gift for my ex-fiancée, and I will buy gifts for my brothers and sister and nieces and nephew and parents. I am going to buy into the consumerism for Tradition
TM, but really, that won't detract from my good time.
I like the OP and Suu's subsequent rant. It's why I keep on keepin' on with the holiday, even when life was shitty as it has been the last few years.
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 01:31:04 AM
There's nothing wrong with wearing a religious symbol. Religion is a creation of man so that the unexplained may have answers, and it gives the mind hope of salvation and the comfort of faith.
But... The answers tend to be
wrong.
I don't mean to sound like a shrieking atheist, but religion doesn't give us correct information; so why should we put faith in falshoods?
Are you talking about scientific fact or reasoning? Then yes, then there are "wrong" answers, mostly because at the time the religions were formed, they didn't have the technology and the ways of thinking as we do today.
They aren't WRONG, they are OUTDATED. It's up to the followers of the said religion to accept the change in times and accept new technologies as they see fit.
For example...Creationism is bullshit. We know this. This was proven 200 years ago. And that argument about evolution being "just a theory", more bullshit. A theory scientifically speaking is something that has yet to be disproven, not just "an idea".
However, if a Christian says to me, "I believe the God created the Universe, and then set evolution in motion, thus giving us the scientific proof." Then I'm down with that because they don't sound as crazy. You can still be progressive and religious, but those are the folks that don't seem to bitch as much, because they know better. There are many scientists and professors out there that are quite devout in their faiths. General Stuart, for example, is an anthropologist that practices archaeology, and he's a born and raised [Northern] Baptist. He's not out there searching just for holy relics, and he knows a substantial amount of information on human evolution. He knows where the line is between God and science, and that's that.
Even in some Hellenistic cults, the universe was created by Chaos, so even as Discordians, we're not far off...
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:11:28 PM
Are you talking about scientific fact or reasoning? Then yes, then there are "wrong" answers, mostly because at the time the religions were formed, they didn't have the technology and the ways of thinking as we do today.
They aren't WRONG, they are OUTDATED. It's up to the followers of the said religion to accept the change in times and accept new technologies as they see fit.
For example...Creationism is bullshit. We know this. This was proven 200 years ago. And that argument about evolution being "just a theory", more bullshit. A theory scientifically speaking is something that has yet to be disproven, not just "an idea".
However, if a Christian says to me, "I believe the God created the Universe, and then set evolution in motion, thus giving us the scientific proof." Then I'm down with that because they don't sound as crazy. You can still be progressive and religious, but those are the folks that don't seem to bitch as much, because they know better. There are many scientists and professors out there that are quite devout in their faiths. General Stuart, for example, is an anthropologist that practices archaeology, and he's a born and raised [Northern] Baptist. He's not out there searching just for holy relics, and he knows a substantial amount of information on human evolution. He knows where the line is between God and science, and that's that.
Even in some Hellenistic cults, the universe was created by Chaos, so even as Discordians, we're not far off...
I agree with this. I would add that from a moral perspective, such as it is, religions are generally as "right" as possible. There are very few religions that don't teach some form of "don't be a douche bag to other people", though sometimes, often even, this is followed by an "unless they are different". That is where the problem arises, but again I'm drifting into another discussion, so I'll leave it there.
QuoteIt's up to the followers of the said religion to accept the change in times and accept new technologies as they see fit.
Well, good luck with that and all...
But isn't that just the God of the Gaps schtick?
"God made the rock fall."
"Actually, we can prove that gravity makes things fall."
"God made gravity."
"Um... Mass warps space-time which is observed as gravitational pull."
"God is anything you haven't discovered yet."
"Just give us time..."
They way you said it, "so the unexplained may have answers", it probably what triggered me. If something is unexplained, don't make up a story for it, figure it out. And as far as "salvation" and "faith" is concerned, what am I being saved from, and why should I put my faith in outdated stories stemming from deprived technologies?
Ok, I do realize where this conversation is now going. I was not raised in a religious family, and I do not have emotional or social attachments to any particular religion. I tend to see adherence to a religion in psychological, biological, and sociological terms, which can really make me sound like a prick at times.
I also know that:
1) This debate has occured many times here, between many people, and the dance has become very familiar, and
2) I'm just as likely to change your opinion as you are to change mine.
I'm willing to drop it and shake hands, if this is gonna lead to shouting. On the other hand, if you want to get more in depth, I'm ok with that as well.
Quote from: Cain on December 16, 2010, 02:26:13 PM
QuoteIt's up to the followers of the said religion to accept the change in times and accept new technologies as they see fit.
Well, good luck with that and all...
In a perfect world, anyway. :(
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 02:29:19 PM
But isn't that just the God of the Gaps schtick?
"God made the rock fall."
"Actually, we can prove that gravity makes things fall."
"God made gravity."
"Um... Mass warps space-time which is observed as gravitational pull."
"God is anything you haven't discovered yet."
"Just give us time..."
They way you said it, "so the unexplained may have answers", it probably what triggered me. If something is unexplained, don't make up a story for it, figure it out. And as far as "salvation" and "faith" is concerned, what am I being saved from, and why should I put my faith in outdated stories stemming from deprived technologies?
Ok, I do realize where this conversation is now going. I was not raised in a religious family, and I do not have emotional or social attachments to any particular religion. I tend to see adherence to a religion in psychological, biological, and sociological terms, which can really make me sound like a prick at times.
I also know that:
1) This debate has occured many times here, between many people, and the dance has become very familiar, and
2) I'm just as likely to change your opinion as you are to change mine.
I'm willing to drop it and shake hands, if this is gonna lead to shouting. On the other hand, if you want to get more in depth, I'm ok with that as well.
For my part in this debate (small though it is): I agree with just about everything you just said, LMNO. I was raised religious, and I do have certain attachments to the rituals and iconography, but that does not equate to belief in the precepts. I have also studied religions of various stripes for many years now, and I realize that they serve a certain function in a society, but at this stage of development, they have mostly out lived their usefulness, except to scare people who would otherwise be irredeemable shitnecks into being slight less contemptible. They don't generally do a good job of it though.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 02:29:19 PM
But isn't that just the God of the Gaps schtick?
"God made the rock fall."
"Actually, we can prove that gravity makes things fall."
"God made gravity."
"Um... Mass warps space-time which is observed as gravitational pull."
"God is anything you haven't discovered yet."
"Just give us time..."
They way you said it, "so the unexplained may have answers", it probably what triggered me. If something is unexplained, don't make up a story for it, figure it out. And as far as "salvation" and "faith" is concerned, what am I being saved from, and why should I put my faith in outdated stories stemming from deprived technologies?
Ok, I do realize where this conversation is now going. I was not raised in a religious family, and I do not have emotional or social attachments to any particular religion. I tend to see adherence to a religion in psychological, biological, and sociological terms, which can really make me sound like a prick at times.
I also know that:
1) This debate has occured many times here, between many people, and the dance has become very familiar, and
2) I'm just as likely to change your opinion as you are to change mine.
I'm willing to drop it and shake hands, if this is gonna lead to shouting. On the other hand, if you want to get more in depth, I'm ok with that as well.
I don't want this to evolve into shouting...simply because that's just juvenile and there's no reason why it SHOULD...But then again, someone is bound to come in here and ruin it for us anyway, even if we try.
The fact that you didn't grow up in a religious environment probably makes it harder for you to kinda grasp what I'm saying, and that's cool, because even though I grew up in a household that was Catholic, but not overly so (We went to church, I went to Catholic school...but we rarely said grace except for Thanksgiving...), there's still probably a huge amount of different mental...I guess you could say, "conditioning" that happened. I was exposed to things that you were not, and vice versa.
So it's not so much as who's right and wrong, because there is no definitive answer, nor there ever will be, but it's a matter of accepting the existence of different points of view.
And that...is pretty much why the world sucks. Right there I think...Getting two people to concede is one thing, but getting entire groups of millions of people on the other hand is a bit different.
I still think scientific rituals are the way to go. The Donning of the Protective Vestments, the Lighting of the Bunsen Burner....
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:38:28 PM
So it's not so much as who's right and wrong, because there is no definitive answer, nor there ever will be, but it's a matter of accepting the existence of different points of view.
If you're referring to your earlier point that religion isn't so much wrong as outdated, yes I would agree with you. That was people doing the best that they could at the time to figure things out... much like alchemy at the time it was created wasn't really wrong either, it was the best they could do... but alchemy eventually evolved, some of it became aspects of chemistry and other aspects simply fell away when they were demonstrated not to be true. This hasn't really happened with religion, and as religion is set up, it really can't. I mean, yes, there has been some evolvement in churches, its certainly not how it was in the Middle Ages, but its still basically Q: "Why does it thunder?" A: "Because God is angry" when it comes down to it.
We can't see electricity, but we can demonstrate it exists... until someone can demonstrate ANY evidence in the existence of a god, I don't see why an intelligent person would waste their time with it.
Quote from: Cain on December 16, 2010, 02:40:25 PM
I still think scientific rituals are the way to go. The Donning of the Protective Vestments, the Lighting of the Bunsen Burner....
I can see this now.
"Children, gather around! Quickly! Tell Dioxyribo Claus what you want for Darwinmas!"
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/3098363787_805860cf7b_o.jpg)
...I should totally celebrate Darwinmas.
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 16, 2010, 02:40:25 PM
I still think scientific rituals are the way to go. The Donning of the Protective Vestments, the Lighting of the Bunsen Burner....
I can see this now.
"Children, gather around! Quickly! Tell Dioxyribo Claus what you want for Darwinmas!"
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/3098363787_805860cf7b_o.jpg)
...I should totally celebrate Darwinmas.
Yes.
Quote from: Cain on December 16, 2010, 02:40:25 PM
I still think scientific rituals are the way to go. The Donning of the Protective Vestments, the Lighting of the Bunsen Burner....
I just read that sequence last night... "Welcome to the Bayesean Conspiracy." Heh.
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:38:28 PM
So it's not so much as who's right and wrong, because there is no definitive answer, nor there ever will be, but it's a matter of accepting the existence of different points of view.
And that...is pretty much why the world sucks. Right there I think...Getting two people to concede is one thing, but getting entire groups of millions of people on the other hand is a bit different.
I suppose I could be pragmatic about the whole thing. "What
works for you?" If we're talking about everyday existence, getting through your day, getting out of be in the morning, not being a shit to your fellow humans... If a religion can help a person out with that, who am I to say they shouldn't use it?* I do get worried when the issues and questions go beyond the everyday, however... Most people want to draw a continuous line between what they believe in a day-to-day context and what they believe in moments of crucial, experiential universe-affecting decision making.
I contend that it would be better to have a series of beliefs that can be scaled to whatever size of a decision you want to make, rather than have a low-level system of religious beliefs to help you get through your day, and then abruptly shifting to a higher level of rationality when dealing with larger issues.
*Incidentally, that's the line of thinking I use concerning my brother's acceptance of Scientology. He is demostrably a happier and nicer person than he used to be. I think his belief system is utter bullshit, but (for now) it's completely working for him and has improved his life.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 16, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:38:28 PM
So it's not so much as who's right and wrong, because there is no definitive answer, nor there ever will be, but it's a matter of accepting the existence of different points of view.
If you're referring to your earlier point that religion isn't so much wrong as outdated, yes I would agree with you. That was people doing the best that they could at the time to figure things out... much like alchemy at the time it was created wasn't really wrong either, it was the best they could do... but alchemy eventually evolved, some of it became aspects of chemistry and other aspects simply fell away when they were demonstrated not to be true. This hasn't really happened with religion, and as religion is set up, it really can't. I mean, yes, there has been some evolvement in churches, its certainly not how it was in the Middle Ages, but its still basically Q: "Why does it thunder?" A: "Because God is angry" when it comes down to it.
We can't see electricity, but we can demonstrate it exists... until someone can demonstrate ANY evidence in the existence of a god, I don't see why an intelligent person would waste their time with it.
By saying what you did, you basically said that every scientist ever who may have believed in some sort of god, and did amazing things to better the scientific world, faith aside, is less intelligent than you, because you DON'T believe that a god exists without proof. That just seems arrogant, imo. God EXISTS in the mind and heart of the believer, and as long as there are followers, then there is faith. That's what I
"believe" and that's how I typically end the argument at hand. It's also what I'm kinda sorta writing about in my graphic novel.
Personally, I could give two fucking shits what people believe at the end of my day as long as the world keeps turning and they don't interfere with my daily life. I don't like being preached to. I have this thing about religion being personal...
BTW: Nothing in this thread is changing my opinion on any of you, I just want to get that out. :)
Well, this thread turned out differently than I expected.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 02:59:05 PM
*Incidentally, that's the line of thinking I use concerning my brother's acceptance of Scientology. He is demostrably a happier and nicer person than he used to be. I think his belief system is utter bullshit, but (for now) it's completely working for him and has improved his life.
My mom was about to turn my drug-addict uncle over to the Scientologists with his inheritance money. She was dead fucking serious about it. It came to the point where she just figured that even though she hates the group, they may have been what was needed to fix him. Fortunately he came around.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 16, 2010, 03:11:51 PM
Well, this thread turned out differently than I expected.
And what do YOU want for Darwinmas, little boy?
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 03:07:04 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 16, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 02:38:28 PM
So it's not so much as who's right and wrong, because there is no definitive answer, nor there ever will be, but it's a matter of accepting the existence of different points of view.
If you're referring to your earlier point that religion isn't so much wrong as outdated, yes I would agree with you. That was people doing the best that they could at the time to figure things out... much like alchemy at the time it was created wasn't really wrong either, it was the best they could do... but alchemy eventually evolved, some of it became aspects of chemistry and other aspects simply fell away when they were demonstrated not to be true. This hasn't really happened with religion, and as religion is set up, it really can't. I mean, yes, there has been some evolvement in churches, its certainly not how it was in the Middle Ages, but its still basically Q: "Why does it thunder?" A: "Because God is angry" when it comes down to it.
We can't see electricity, but we can demonstrate it exists... until someone can demonstrate ANY evidence in the existence of a god, I don't see why an intelligent person would waste their time with it.
By saying what you did, you basically said that every scientist ever who may have believed in some sort of god, and did amazing things to better the scientific world, faith aside, is less intelligent than you, because you DON'T believe that a god exists without proof.
No, all I said is that I don't understand why they would think that way. I did say "waste their time", but from my perspective it is a waste of time. It's no value judgement on them, everyone can believe in whatever they want, that doesn't mean I will like it, or understand it. Just giving my perspective.
An electric hurdy-gurdy.
I too grew up in a religious household. Baptist to be precise. Though, one that hasn't always been super strict about actually going to church. I wasn't taken to church on a regular basis until I was probably 8 or 9. I would go to the Bible school in the summer and learn the verses and sing the songs like all of the other good little children. Reading the story of Jesus was a regular part of Christmas celebrations.
I never really grew that attached to the religion. When we did go, I was never really that fond of getting up early every Sunday to go to the church for two hours. I believed everything I was supposed to believe. I prayed every night like I was supposed to. But, I pretty much left the whole ball of wax behind after my Grandmother, who has just been re-Baptised, died at a Hospital after what was supposed to be a fairly routine heart surgery. At that point, it ceased to make any sense to me. It seemed to be a bunch of faith in this phantom that was supposed to make us all better. Yet, he just took one of my favorite people away. Seemed like a bunch of bullshit, so I was done.
As far as Christmas goes, my emotional attachment to the Holiday has much more to do with being with family and all of the family traditions. That's why the Commercialism of it really turns my stomach. I don't care about how it taints the religious aspect of the holiday. I just don't like how it turns what should be a simple time of commradery with friends and family into a gigantic stress-ball of shit.
If it makes you feel better, I know I gave up faith when my 5th grade teacher told me that my cat couldn't go to Heaven when he died, but I think the nail in the coffin was pro-life vs pro-choice. I was kicked out of my youth group at the church, and told my mom I wasn't going to church anymore, and she was fine with it. I didn't need a special building over my head to pray. Haven't looked back since.
Then I pretended I was Wiccan. :| Lolhighschool.
I don't know where I lie, to be honest. Atheism just doesn't seem right to me, even though I'm a firm believer in all things SCIENCE!
I like Discordianism, whether you can consider it "real" or not. It makes sense to me right now.
I just consider myself a-religious. I consider Discordianism more of a philosophy than anything else. The closest thing I have to spirituality is when I'm playing music. Otherwise, my approach to fate and everything is pretty much C'est la vie.
To me, it looks like this:
There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).
Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.
I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there. It's just a lot of Weird Shit.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 03:59:54 PM
To me, it looks like this:
There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).
Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.
I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there. It's just a lot of Weird Shit.
:mittens:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 03:59:54 PM
To me, it looks like this:
There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).
Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.
I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there. It's just a lot of Weird Shit.
:mittens:
Nailed it.
OSHIT. CONCORD!
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 04:06:31 PM
OSHIT. CONCORD!
Brave, brave Concord?
(http://monty-python-and-the-holy-grail.com/images/scenes/monty_python_holy_grail_script_124_lancelot_message.jpg)
100% with LMNO's Hypothesis of Weird Shit (I mean, its not technically a theory yet, right :lulz: )
I'm gonna break from my usual line here, though. I think people should do whatever they want to do in order to cope with reality. If they want to look for facts and truth, they should. If they want to be part of the majority tribe and believe in some form of Sky Daddy, they should. If they want to get down and funky with Eris, then they should.
BUT, I disagree that Christianity teaches a basically good/useful message. The Christian belief system, as with most transcendental systems place focus on transcending this life to the next life... this life is just a shadow of the future. Further, it ingrains a system of guilt. You are unworthy of being with God, unless you accept that this dude DIED for you. You are a sinner, you are imperfect, you are fallen. Now, some progressive christian systems focus on only the nicer bits of the system (forgiveness, we all make mistakes and thats cool etc), but the foundation of the entire system is predicated on core tenants that are, in my opinion, unhealthy.
I don't mind that some people find comfort in faith. I don't mind that some people choose to believe that Grandma is in heaven looking down. If that makes them feel better, what difference does it really make if its true or false? I accept that some many people have no need to understand truth in detail... for most humans, belief in evolution or creation will not change their life in the slightest, but having a tribal identity may improve their life greatly.
In those ways, religion fills a need for people that have that sort of need. However, the guilt, the shame, the 'transcendent' nature of the belief ... in short, the entire focus of the Christian Holy Book is, in my opinion, a terrible, terrible thing to inflict on human beings.
Perhaps, but humanity would have guilt, shame, and all the rest regardless of Xtianity... The bible simply codified it.
For what it's worth, I also agree with LMNO on the Weird Shit hypothesis. It's also the reason that, while I am very skeptical, often butt heads with other skeptics... a majority of them seem to be of the belief that nothing weird ever happens anywhere.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 16, 2010, 04:24:15 PM
100% with LMNO's Hypothesis of Weird Shit (I mean, its not technically a theory yet, right :lulz: )
I'm gonna break from my usual line here, though. I think people should do whatever they want to do in order to cope with reality. If they want to look for facts and truth, they should. If they want to be part of the majority tribe and believe in some form of Sky Daddy, they should. If they want to get down and funky with Eris, then they should.
BUT, I disagree that Christianity teaches a basically good/useful message. The Christian belief system, as with most transcendental systems place focus on transcending this life to the next life... this life is just a shadow of the future. Further, it ingrains a system of guilt. You are unworthy of being with God, unless you accept that this dude DIED for you. You are a sinner, you are imperfect, you are fallen. Now, some progressive christian systems focus on only the nicer bits of the system (forgiveness, we all make mistakes and thats cool etc), but the foundation of the entire system is predicated on core tenants that are, in my opinion, unhealthy.
I don't mind that some people find comfort in faith. I don't mind that some people choose to believe that Grandma is in heaven looking down. If that makes them feel better, what difference does it really make if its true or false? I accept that some many people have no need to understand truth in detail... for most humans, belief in evolution or creation will not change their life in the slightest, but having a tribal identity may improve their life greatly.
In those ways, religion fills a need for people that have that sort of need. However, the guilt, the shame, the 'transcendent' nature of the belief ... in short, the entire focus of the Christian Holy Book is, in my opinion, a terrible, terrible thing to inflict on human beings.
Now, I may be misreading you here, and you may not be responding directly (or even indirectly for all I know) to my comments, but if you read that I was saying Christianity/religion in general was basically a good thing, I was most certainly not trying to imply that. While i disagree about the usefulness of transcendental thinking, I think you are pretty much dead on with the rest of it. Many of the core tenets of Christianity are harmful to society as a whole, but there are certain aspects of the religion (generally the ones that are ignored most often, charity, kindness, etc.) ARE good things, in and of themselves, and the religion itself does teach them. I do agree that the guilt and shame, and general devaluation of this life and human nature are completely abominable, though.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 04:26:43 PM
Perhaps, but humanity would have guilt, shame, and all the rest regardless of Xtianity... The bible simply codified it.
Those feelings would exist among individuals, but Christianity (and some other religions) are guilt obsessed. The ENTIRE belief system is predicated on guilt, and not even guilt of You doing wrong... but guilt based on the fact that you were born human.
Adam and Eve were perfect, guilt free humans. They sinned and thus could not produce perfect children. All humans at that point became sinners, guilty, worthy of death ("the wages sin pays is death"). The ONLY salvation is through a perfect man sent by God.. or was the Son of God, or was God (depending on the particular sect)... who had no sin and thus no reason to die, YET he sacrificed his own life and blood to bring the chance for salvation to all humans. BUT ONLY if all those humans follow this untenable set of rules.
Guilt is certainly part of being human, but Christianity and a number of other religions place a very unhealthy focus on that as the driving force for their existence. I don't think thats
good in any way shape or form.
Also, Phox, well said :)
(I personally think that focusing on the here and now, rather than the transcendent future is better... but I agree that the transcendental viewpoint has some very interesting aspects as well)
* In my opinion
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 04:26:43 PM
Perhaps, but humanity would have guilt, shame, and all the rest regardless of Xtianity... The bible simply codified it.
But again, it was written at a time when people needed rules to live by, and Christians weren't thrilled with the idea of functioning under Roman Law. I'd kinda like to see what a lot of the books looked like pre-Nicaea.
I think Arian Christianity (Not to be confused with Aryan, please) had much different and much more simple views. It was against the Trinity, and made Jesus lesser than God, but Trinitarianism won at the council. The religion was formatted in a way to strike fear into it's followers so that they could be controlled easier.
Instead of believing, "Hey, Jesus was a cool dude and he taught us to be good people."
They were made to follow, "Jesus said to be good to people or you're not going to Heaven because you're a filthy sinner."
...I think.
Weird Shit hypothesis FTW!!! (Seriously, that was good shit)
I'll add something to the excellent conversation so far (sorry I can't find the link to the article I pulled this from). We can consider that one of the functions of religions is to allow information considered important to pass through multiple generations with low chance of signal loss. Unfortunately, this doesn't work out so well in practice. As an example, we can use the conversion of a large swath of SE Asia to Christianity. Previous to the missionaries arrival, there were large, complicated religious bureaucracies which synced their activities with a very complex religious calendar.
When the Christians got to the area, the first thing they did was ban the use of the religious calendar (good memetic warfare, in their mind). Unfortunately (and doubly unfortunate that non of the existing priest class could clue them in to this fact, as it seems even they forgot the purpose of the super-complex calendar), it seems the calendar was specifically coded to the rice planting cycle first, then the lunar cycle, then the solar cycle. It even calculated how far forward or back to push the planting season depending on weather, etc, etc. There were massive famines until the missionaries allowed the people to reinstate their local calendar (great job there, copyChrists).
Functionally, religion serves as a 'regulator' for the 1st 4 Circuits (the above example regulated a 3rd circuit discovery, an abstraction about planting rice, and ensured it's use over generational time), and (like a corporation) they are structured to outlast any specific individual in order to pass those 'lessons' down through the generations. It's no surprise then, that most mainstream religions are primarily concerned with regulating your Sex Life.
Quote from: Suu on December 16, 2010, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 04:26:43 PM
Perhaps, but humanity would have guilt, shame, and all the rest regardless of Xtianity... The bible simply codified it.
But again, it was written at a time when people needed rules to live by, and Christians weren't thrilled with the idea of functioning under Roman Law. I'd kinda like to see what a lot of the books looked like pre-Nicaea.
I think Arian Christianity (Not to be confused with Aryan, please) had much different and much more simple views. It was against the Trinity, and made Jesus lesser than God, but Trinitarianism won at the council. The religion was formatted in a way to strike fear into it's followers so that they could be controlled easier.
Instead of believing, "Hey, Jesus was a cool dude and he taught us to be good people."
They were made to follow, "Jesus said to be good to people or you're not going to Heaven because you're a filthy sinner."
...I think.
Yeah, I agree that around the 2nd/3rd century there were less bad interpretations of the Christian system (just like today there are some progressive systems that aren't focused on the sin and the death and the bad human, no cookie creed).
However, even in Judaism, the precursor and foundation of Christianity... this obsession with guilt was central. Hell, it was codified in the Mosaic Law. Their holiest day of the year was/is The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). The day of atonement, according to the Mishnah, was full of rituals which focused the entire nation on their sinful state. The High Priest would begin each day with a prayer of supplication beginning always "Ah YHVH we are sinners." or "Ah YHVH, we have sinned". The ritual of the Goat for Azazel, included bringing out this poor goat, speaking all of the 'sins of Israel' over the goat and then sending it into the wilderness where it got pushed backward off a cliff, taking the sins of that year with it.
Every time a Jew sinned, he had to make a sacrifice. He made sacrifices regularly throughout the year, so that the blood of those animals would be accepted by God rather than God asking the blood price from the human. By the turn of the millennium, the religious leaders in Israel were using this ingrained acceptance of guilt, imperfection and unworthiness to run roughshod over the people. Ironically, much like Christianity today.
I would love to see an alternate time-line where Arian or some of the other views of Christianity had taken root... but given the foundation I don't know that its realistic... to me the focus on guilt seems inevitable.
Of course, I also admit that my past has heavily influenced my perceptions on the topic.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 16, 2010, 03:21:05 PM
An electric hurdy-gurdy.
I too grew up in a religious household. Baptist to be precise. Though, one that hasn't always been super strict about actually going to church. I wasn't taken to church on a regular basis until I was probably 8 or 9. I would go to the Bible school in the summer and learn the verses and sing the songs like all of the other good little children. Reading the story of Jesus was a regular part of Christmas celebrations.
I never really grew that attached to the religion. When we did go, I was never really that fond of getting up early every Sunday to go to the church for two hours. I believed everything I was supposed to believe. I prayed every night like I was supposed to. But, I pretty much left the whole ball of wax behind after my Grandmother, who has just been re-Baptised, died at a Hospital after what was supposed to be a fairly routine heart surgery. At that point, it ceased to make any sense to me. It seemed to be a bunch of faith in this phantom that was supposed to make us all better. Yet, he just took one of my favorite people away. Seemed like a bunch of bullshit, so I was done.
As far as Christmas goes, my emotional attachment to the Holiday has much more to do with being with family and all of the family traditions. That's why the Commercialism of it really turns my stomach. I don't care about how it taints the religious aspect of the holiday. I just don't like how it turns what should be a simple time of commradery with friends and family into a gigantic stress-ball of shit.
THIS. 169% Except for the hurdy-gurdy and the grandmother, as it was actually college and being able to finally study shit my parents didn't have a say-so over that changed me for good and all.
Religion's part of my history, as in my past, and I can't say that it didn't affect me or shape who I am today. But it's not part of my everyday like it used to be, and holidays are no longer so very holy, but I'm happy that I had the close family associations THROUGH religion that gave me the connections and traditions that I have made part of my kids' lives.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 16, 2010, 03:59:54 PM
To me, it looks like this:
There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).
Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.
I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there. It's just a lot of Weird Shit.
:potd:
Now all I have to do is expand that to 500 pages, and I'll collect my doctorate.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 17, 2010, 01:10:22 PM
Now all I have to do is expand that to 500 pages, and I'll collect my doctorate.
You should do it. Then go and teach lectures around the world and make lots of money. I'd know *I'd* throw $10 at your feet.
Today's seminar:
WE DON'T KNOW SHIT.
By Rev. Dr. LMNO, PhD
:gheyforum:
OH FUCK! WHERE DO I BUY THE PROGRAM?!
WILL THIS BE AVAILABLE ON DVD?!
CAN YOU SIGN MY BOOK?!?!
I hold that it is all an extension of putting "in god we trust" on the dollar bill. At that point the USA became officially Mammonist.
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Property"
Quote from: Suu on December 20, 2010, 02:59:01 AM
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Property"
John Locke was fucked up.
Not really. He was pretty brilliant for his time. It's just that our lifestyles have evolved GREATLY since the 17th century.
Quote from: Suu on December 20, 2010, 05:07:35 AM
Not really. He was pretty brilliant for his time. It's just that our lifestyles have evolved GREATLY since the 17th century.
Anyone who believes that people in general could coexist peacefully and respect each other's rights is fucked up in my book.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 15, 2010, 07:40:04 PM
It's for these reasons that I keep all of my rosaries, I still wear St. Christopher, I still carry St. Bernadette and St. Jude in my wallet, and I still have a crucifix on my wall. I do still attend mass on Easter and Christmas. I say all the prayers at mass, I genuflect, I perform the gestures. If I'm feeling particularly "in the mood", I'll partake of the Eucharist. Partially, because of it's expected of me. But for the most part, I do it, because these things were all part of my life in a simpler, happier time. I was damn glad to have my shitty little plastic rosary, because it was my first one, and I still have it now, though I also have two nicer ones. I've lost more crucifixes and St. Christopher medals than anyone I know. And I always replace them when I do, even after I left the Church. Maybe it's selfish, and maybe it's so some people will leave me alone about religion. But it's also, reminding myself that I CAN be a better person, and for all the problems with the Church, they were teaching some things correctly.
Yes yes yes. Goddamn, I need to get to mass next saturday. Maybe I could con my mom into going. She hasn't been in years, so I don't know if it will work.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 20, 2010, 05:10:53 AM
Quote from: Suu on December 20, 2010, 05:07:35 AM
Not really. He was pretty brilliant for his time. It's just that our lifestyles have evolved GREATLY since the 17th century.
Anyone who believes that people in general could coexist peacefully and respect each other's rights is fucked up in my book.
No, he said that it would never work, but it was nice thinking it could. He did say some good shit about religion though. Don't enforce ONE religion, or people will fight. Yeah, IF ONLY...
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 20, 2010, 03:35:04 AM
Quote from: Suu on December 20, 2010, 02:59:01 AM
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Property"
John Locke was fucked up.
It was that goddamn hatch. He wasn't the same after that.
Quote from: Suu on December 20, 2010, 01:55:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 20, 2010, 05:10:53 AM
Quote from: Suu on December 20, 2010, 05:07:35 AM
Not really. He was pretty brilliant for his time. It's just that our lifestyles have evolved GREATLY since the 17th century.
Anyone who believes that people in general could coexist peacefully and respect each other's rights is fucked up in my book.
No, he said that it would never work, but it was nice thinking it could. He did say some good shit about religion though. Don't enforce ONE religion, or people will fight. Yeah, IF ONLY...
Eh. I suppose i read it differently. I thought he said the reason to have a government at all was to prevent people from going overboard in their pursuit of justice. Though he did say that people can't be trusted to be their own judges. Hmm. You're right. I'll concede the point.
Quote from: ϗ on December 20, 2010, 05:26:48 AM
Yes yes yes. Goddamn, I need to get to mass next saturday.
:lol: