AKA, 9 volt battery a day keeps the voices of doubt away. (http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2012/02/09/better-living-through-electrochemistry/)
Not in the least bit clear how it works. Yes yes, it's 9 volts of current coursing through your brain, but how is it interfering with the connectome specifically?
And if that wasn't enough, you can make your own. (http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs). If electrocuting your brain is the sort of crazy thing you like to do, anyway.
I want one.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on March 03, 2012, 07:16:38 PM
AKA, 9 volt battery :fnord: (http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2012/02/09/better-living-through-electrochemistry/)
:fnord: make your own. (http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs).
http://www.tooserious.com/ {i do NOT have /or want flash 4 | = not 2
My grand Niece had one | Dr.. Prescribed | tried it on me | I vote in favor
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on March 03, 2012, 07:16:38 PM
AKA, 9 volt battery a day keeps the voices of doubt away. (http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2012/02/09/better-living-through-electrochemistry/)
Not in the least bit clear how it works. Yes yes, it's 9 volts of current coursing through your brain, but how is it interfering with the connectome specifically?
And if that wasn't enough, you can make your own. (http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs). If electrocuting your brain is the sort of crazy thing you like to do, anyway.
If I had one of these, maybe I could stop the phrase "9 volts of current" from echoing through my brain, and focus on how fucking amazing this thing is.
Quote from: Emo Howard on March 03, 2012, 10:12:36 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on March 03, 2012, 07:16:38 PM
AKA, 9 volt battery a day keeps the voices of doubt away. (http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2012/02/09/better-living-through-electrochemistry/)
Not in the least bit clear how it works. Yes yes, it's 9 volts of current coursing through your brain, but how is it interfering with the connectome specifically?
And if that wasn't enough, you can make your own. (http://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs). If electrocuting your brain is the sort of crazy thing you like to do, anyway.
If I had one of these, maybe I could stop the phrase "9 volts of current" from echoing through my brain, and focus on how fucking amazing this thing is.
Sorry, I'm not a very good electrician. Should be "9 volts of potential applied to your brain". :)
I have a theory (or whatevar) that Tesla experimented with this stuff, and that explains why he was kind of a weird guy.
I suck at making things, but if I can find one to buy, I sure as hell am.
WHAT'S A VOLT OF CURRENT?
CURRENT IS MEASURED IN AMPHERES. THIS "SCIENCE" IS SUSPECT, AND SHOULD BE TESTED ON CONVICTS AND PAGANS FIRST.
Quote...the thing that made the earth drop out from under my feet was that for the first time in my life, everything in my head finally shut the fuck up.
:lulz: Gotta love that 5th circuit jump. Look at the classic grasping at the same language used to convey "Satori" (etc)... The earth floats away downwards, and everything in your mind
shuts the fuck up. She brings up yoga later, so that's probably the vector for these specific metaphors, but still it's interesting to note. Also experienced the classic "days of slow integration of the new calm-experience" afterwards.
I would recommend binaural sound techniques + biofeedback sensors to get used to these mental states first. The first only requires a computer and some headphones, and the 2nd (neural pads) are fairly available nowdays (I saw a neural-music kit @ Esozone a few years ago).
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 04, 2012, 01:48:41 AM
WHAT'S A VOLT OF CURRENT?
CURRENT IS MEASURED IN AMPHERES. THIS "SCIENCE" IS SUSPECT, AND SHOULD BE TESTED ON CONVICTS AND PAGANS FIRST.
I corrected myself, if you didn't notice. :)
Just going to drop this here for future reference.
http://bme.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/people/faculty/bikson/Mihas_Bikson_PerceptionTDCS_2011.pdf
http://www.jove.com/video/2744/electrode-positioning-and-montage-in-transcranial-direct-current-stimulation
Am I the only one who is a little worried about shutting down my brain's voices?
Possibly. I'd like all the white noise to go away, myself.
Quote from: Telarus on March 04, 2012, 08:56:11 AM
I would recommend binaural sound techniques + biofeedback sensors to get used to these mental states first. The first only requires a computer and some headphones, and the 2nd (neural pads) are fairly available nowdays (I saw a neural-music kit @ Esozone a few years ago).
Is there yet any science backing up the effectiveness of listening to binaural beats? I seem to recall it was kind of iffy last time we discussed it and Wikipedia is all "hypothetical", "reportedly" and "alleged" about its "claimed" effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_synchronization
Most of the loose pieces sort of make sense: binaural beats are real, alpha/theta/etc wave frequencies do correspond with certain brain states, ... looking at WP's citations I can't find any reliable sources about the claimed "frequency following" or "entrainment" effect with regard to sound.
Most are sites selling related hardware, training or therapy, stating it as a claim with no proof. There is one scientific reference (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/001346947590262X) (that I can access) but in the abstract they mention the affected neurons are "spatially compact", so I assume that's just a small chunk of neurons in the auditory centre trying to predict the signal, nothing about actually "synchronizing" any other part of the brain.
Which is interesting, btw, because reading about the differences between these delta/theta/alpha waves, they're all generated by different parts of the brain! Crazy, because all those sites about brainwave synchronization really give you the impression that it's some global neural signal pulsing through important parts of your brain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_wave (you can click through to delta, theta and more)
Interestingly enough, the research on effects of audio-
visual pulsing signals and brainwave entrainment seems a lot more solid. Which makes sense because we all know that photosensitive epilepsy is real. But I've never heard about people going into a seizure because of low frequency sounds (who knows, it might happen, but I can't find anything about it so I guess it's rare). At the very least that would suggest that visual stimulus based brainwave synchronization would have a much stronger effect than aural.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio–visual_entrainment
Finally, I wondered why you'd have to make binaural beats, and not just a series of short sound pulses repeating at the right frequency. Would be a much clearer signal, as binaural beats are pretty subtle--in fact they initially got attention because of the fact people could perceive them at all. Turns out this pulse method is also used and it's called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochronic_tones and there's also Monaural Beats, which is just amplitude modulation.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 04, 2012, 10:27:47 PM
Possibly. I'd like all the white noise to go away, myself.
I would worry about its impact on my creativity. On the other hand, I've had some pretty strong 5th circuit experiences without external devices, and they are /excellent/. I wouldn't want to be that way all the time, but just use it as a reset button. Maybe that's what this is all really good for.
And if you reset your computer all the time nothing gets done.
Prediction: This will be all the rage in a few years as a "legal high" competing and consorting with bath salts and legal weed.
It will be known as "Jacking On" in reference to that Futurama episode.
You know the one.
(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs7/2791264_o.gif)
Quote from: Emo Howard on March 15, 2012, 10:15:23 AM
Prediction: You know the one. http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs7/2791264_o.gif
http://gifsoup.com/
actually i don't the reason i quoted was so i could copy / PASTE the above
3:23-25 pdT i think i have a U tube Account | its been many years ago so i 4get 3:28
Quote from: Emo Howard on March 15, 2012, 10:15:23 AM
Prediction:
My guess 4Apple 8+ decades {4score&7
IBM maybe 5 , HP 11, Google never:
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on March 05, 2012, 03:37:35 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on March 04, 2012, 10:27:47 PM
Possibly. I'd like all the white noise to go away, myself.
I would worry about its impact on my creativity. On the other hand, I've had some pretty strong 5th circuit experiences without external devices, and they are /excellent/. I wouldn't want to be that way all the time, but just use it as a reset button. Maybe that's what this is all really good for.
And if you reset your computer all the time nothing gets done.
I can see that, and true. I'm pretty much all white noise, though, which makes it hard to concentrate on anything.
I'd try it and then when it wore off I'd be crushed like a bug under a garbage truck's tire. But while it was on, I'd finally conquer the world like I've always wanted and edit those eleven god damn novels and set things on fire to my heart's content.
Ten bucks says it leads to pagans wanting to use it to commune with their inner Divine and/or try to train their 'psychic abilities'.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 02, 2012, 05:33:26 AM
I'd try it and then when it wore off I'd be crushed like a bug under a garbage truck's tire. But while it was on, I'd finally conquer the world like I've always wanted and edit those eleven god damn novels and set things on fire to my heart's content.
Ten bucks says it leads to pagans wanting to use it to commune with their inner Divine and/or try to train their 'psychic abilities'.
That, and the idiots who try to DIY with extension cords and the like should be popping up on the news in the next year or two. Then you'll have a faction screaming that THIS IS HAZARDOUS AND SHOULD BE OUTLAWED.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 02, 2012, 06:13:31 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 02, 2012, 05:33:26 AM
I'd try it and then when it wore off I'd be crushed like a bug under a garbage truck's tire. But while it was on, I'd finally conquer the world like I've always wanted and edit those eleven god damn novels and set things on fire to my heart's content.
Ten bucks says it leads to pagans wanting to use it to commune with their inner Divine and/or try to train their 'psychic abilities'.
That, and the idiots who try to DIY with extension cords and the like should be popping up on the news in the next year or two. Then you'll have a faction screaming that THIS IS HAZARDOUS AND SHOULD BE OUTLAWED.
WE'RE 2 STOPIT NOTA HURT OURSELFS! SAFE US FRUM US!!! OUTLAW ELEKTRISITY!
\
:teabagger1:
I saw a kid whut dun made theyselfs a battery frum a potatoe fore skoole!
THINK UV TEH CHILDRUNZ!!
Quote from: Emo Howard on April 02, 2012, 08:25:33 AM
I saw a kid whut dun made theyselfs a battery frum a potatoe fore skoole!
THINK UV TEH CHILDRUNZ!!
IF YOR CAR ANTENNA BREAKS OFF YOU STICK A TATER ONNIT AND IT WERKS GUD.
OUTLAW TATERS!
Quote from: Triple Zero on March 04, 2012, 11:07:32 PM
Is there yet any science backing up the effectiveness of listening to binaural beats? I seem to recall it was kind of iffy last time we discussed it and Wikipedia is all "hypothetical", "reportedly" and "alleged" about its "claimed" effects.
I was under the impression that it was generally accepted, until someone called me on it (about six months ago, give or take six months) and I was unable to find a single study that confirmed (or even tested) it. This shouldn't be the case, clearly, given that home EEG machines are cheap now and binaural entrainment isn't complicated. I'm considering scoring one of those, so I can test on myself informally and double-blind (some automated mechanism choosing entrainment frequencies) and report the results if I do -- however, I suspect much of it is placebic (which is a-ok with me, since I'm not shelling out for iDoser or whatever).
Regarding the OP... I know a guy who has done something similar (or was doing something similar three or four years ago) and who knows (or thinks he knows) neurophysiology fairly well. If there's actually coherent theory behind this, he'll know, so I'll ask him.
Still, I don't see why the following method would not be more effective:
Quote from: Triple Zero on March 04, 2012, 11:07:32 PM
Finally, I wondered why you'd have to make binaural beats, and not just a series of short sound pulses repeating at the right frequency. Would be a much clearer signal, as binaural beats are pretty subtle--in fact they initially got attention because of the fact people could perceive them at all. Turns out this pulse method is also used and it's called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochronic_tones and there's also Monaural Beats, which is just amplitude modulation.
I mean, why produce the desired frequencies implicitly via a psychoacoustic quirk, if you can make them explicit with a series of sound pulses?
#1. sound pulses are probably less pleasant to listen to, and you can apply binaural beats to pretty much any sound.
#2. it's more "interesting" if they're produced by a "special effect" psychoacoustic phenomenon.
#3. if it's mostly placebo, it doesn't matter if they're explicit or implicit and might even be a stronger placebo effect due to #2.
But if there's a strong non-placebo effect, then I expect isochronic tones or monaural beats to produce it stronger.
If you need any help generating particular types of modulated waveforms and/or coloured noise, let me know. I got quite some experience synthesizing sounds with code and algorithms. A Python script could output a WAV, if it doesn't need to be realtime. I also think I got a pretty good idea of how to process an arbitrary mono source waveform into a stereo version with binaural beats.
I accidentally posted about my new EEG machine in the 'tech journal' thread instead of here, I think.
I was planning to just use sox to construct two-channel pure tones with precise beat frequencies, but since my interface code is in python already, it might be sensible to have python code produce the sound. No idea how to do this offhand, so if you have some idea, I'd love the help, Trip :-)
It would be interesting to see if there's a major difference between the psychoacoustic effects of binaural beats and monaural beats, because it may well just be the sound envelope of the beat frequency that matters. In that case, monaural beats and isochronic tones should be at least as effective as binaural beats, or at least not too far off.
My initial plan for the code was to hack the program I have that displays the EEG output so that it records the output, and then modify it so that it also produces (at random) sequences of two-channel pairs of pure tones and records the frequency at each channel (so that it's possible to compare the beat frequency with the EEG data and have everything sync up properly). I can run the raw EEG stuff through someone else's fourier transform code later to get frequencies, if need be -- but, the program displays a histogram *and* a graph, so it's probably either calculating that in real time already or pulls it out of the stream. Somebody reverse engineered the NIA protocol, but I haven't read the writeup with a fully functional brain yet so all I remember is that it's mostly raw data of some kind plus a timing signal -- nothing complicated. Fourier transforms are kind of computationally expensive, so if the python code is doing the transform I'll dike that part out and record just the raw amplitude data to avoid screwing up the timing. I was going to produce the sounds with soxplay, which can just as easily produce monaural beats and isochronic tones as binaural.
I was hoping to do it in realtime only to make sure it was a blind study. Pre-generated sound might lead to performing the experiment with precisely the same sound file, which can certainly be affected by the placebo effect. Ideally, randomized beat frequencies with different durations should work more or less equally well, and when they don't, we can isolate factors like the duration and the initial difference between the current brainwave state and the beat frequency (leading to trying things like starting at the current beat frequency and slowly pitchshifting one channel).
I may not get any good numbers out of the NIA particularly, because there's a *lot* of eye movement noise. If the entrainment puts me in an agitated state, the saccades will probably increase in frequency and the signal to noise ratio will drop through the floor. But, that's what I get for using a cheap EEG machine with forehead-mounted trodes ;-)