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Okay, I'll bite. If you're such a studly bi dude into gender equality, why the hell wasn't your op addressing men as well? Why just women?

Because the dynamic I mentioned in the O.P. is all but nonexistent in male-male online dating.

I'm sick of playing whack-a-mole and addressing the thousand concerns and misrepresentations that have emerged in this thread. So I'm throwing the towel in on this one. Thanks for the help everyone. Goodnight.

jesus this thread took a turn.  Well as a girl I think the problem is most likely Saturwhatever is you're ugly and being a dick to these people.  Ugly people with charm can get laid.  Gorgeous people can be dicks and get laid.  Combine fat, ugly and being a dick and you're not getting laid, you're just fucked.

Change your attitude and see what happens.  Also, maybe pick another site.  You might find a better match elsewhere.  

Straight up, don't get to hopeful for a shitload of one nighters.  Find a nice girl who lets you fuck her and make the best of it.

In any event, straighten up your act or go home to mommy, but stfu you're fucking emo.  Girls really don't like that shit dude.  Those moves lie!

I have it on pretty good authority that I'm not ugly, although like I said in the first post I'm not gorgeous or anything. And although I'm definitely being a dick in this thread, as a general rule I'm really polite. Plenty of friends on here can vouch for that. Charm is my whole angle. So yeah, to that extent I think your advice about picking another site is good.

You seem to be into the social sciences, but i think that one of the trappings of being so, is that when a personal situation that affects you intimately, all that theory gets muddled or gets used self-servingly.

Explain.

Still waiting for an explanation about the powers that be, patriarchy and OKCupid.

Because otherwise you are just hiding behind a big word and expecting it to be your catch-all shield without getting called on it.

Sorry. I don't know you or trust you, and given the anti-intellectual streak in the thread so far, I don't feel really inclined to type up what would amount to another essay.

So instead you get the nutshell version. The patriarchy (if you believe there is such a thing, which apparently some people on this board don't -- so let's go with kyriarchy instead) makes women into sexual commodities (among other things). Women are the in-demand commodity on dating sites. Men send messages in bulk; women get to be picky about selecting. So the commodification backfires against men. A world with less sex/gender disparity would presumably have fewer hornball guys acting like dipshits, and fewer women guarding their sexuality under the presumption that it can and will be taken from them.

Heres an observation from my end:

At one point, I had quite a few straight guys messaging me on there. Now, I don't really fool around with straight guys because frankly they're just trying to get a secret safe gay fix and I'm not into that. That, however, wouldn't have stopped me if there was a nice well mannered attractive "straight" guy who messaged me and started talking with me. Of course, such a guy wouldn't actually be straight (probably), just so in his profile.

However, all the "straight" guys messaging me for for their safe gay fix got old really fast, so I put a note on my profile saying that I wasn't interested.

That's exactly the reason I'm into poly -- it's about keeping everything above board. It's also why I won't sign up for a site like ambermadison.com. Cheating and the closet and all that stuff is just baggage that's better off not factoring into a relationship.

The conclusion I've come to is that people I would NOT like to fuck of any sex, gender or orientation are abundant regardless of where I look.

Well, yeah. You don't mention your gender anywhere (although I seem to remember talking to you about it a couple years ago when I was more active?), but I'm assuming you're male. Anyway, yeah, it's tougher to find people who "fit" when you're queer, and it only gets slimmer the more identity stakes you add to the equation. So I think at some point mainstream dating venues become useless. Me on OkC may be the online equivalent of a gay dude trying to score in a straight bar.

I recognize that and don't go messaging every "hottie" I see out of desperation, which is what it seems YOU do.

I think it's hilarious how many things people are assuming based on the things I haven't explicitly stated. On average, I message one user every one to two months.

I knew you were just whining when you used the word "hottie", indicating just how shallow your intentions were. ALL THE HOTTIES WON'T TALK TO ME!!!

Don't gimme that crap. One of the advantages of online dating is that you can select for physical attractiveness first and foremost. I see that as a good thing. And I see nothing wrong with calling "someone" a "hottie" when that "someone" is, in fact, just an online profile. If they write back, THEN it's absolutely time for something a little less objectifying.

Hey, I'd talk to you. Under the contract that you wouldn't act like a mysogynist. And quit whining.

Rad! But, uh, misogynist? I typically think of myself as pretty down for sex/gender equality.

I'D BE GETTING SO MUCH TRIM IF IT WEREN'T FOR ALL OF THOSE SUCCESSFUL, WITTY, ATTRACTIVE MEN OUT THERE!
\

STOP BEING SO FASCIST, YOU RUNNING DOG LACKEY OF THE PATRIARCHY!

Ooh, wait, wait! Let's review! You like reviews, right? I learned this one from you.

When confronted with a nuanced situation, you reduced it to an absurd generalization so you could make pithy comments. They only had to be marginally related to the topic at hand because the point was never discussion, it was growing your e-peen. So then I confronted the fallacies in your logic, and pointed out your posturing, which seems to have actually made you a little angry! So then you said you were leaving the thread. And here's the best part: you couldn't! Because you just had to keep that little pithy little anti-intellectual streak going. Now who's ego is involved?

I fucking see you. I see what you're doing, you piece of shit. What does it say about your site, that one of the admins is a Greyfaced piece of shit? Shouldn't you be on 4Chan?

My leechblock program has me at 3 minutes, but oh, i so want to get into it about "patriarchy".

Do tell us how patriarchy, entrenched power, OKCupid and yourself correlate.

Obvious troll is ... shit, I forgot how it goes.

But before I go...

I guess that's how power stays entrenched.

whut?

Today's vocab word is "patriarchy."

<---  Laughing at you.

It is what it is.

I guess that's how power stays entrenched.

whut?

Today's vocab word is "patriarchy."

OR...girls are getting so shellshocked from these fuckwads and give up on the online scene entirely, leaving honest nice guys out in the cold, because the rest of the men in the world are disgusting penis-photo obsessed grunting losers.

That's kind of the theory I'm advancing, yeah. A relatively small subset of males are doing things with such wide negative impact. And I gather that when you combine that with all my specific weirdness, I'm just essentially shut out of a "mainstream" site like OkC.

I definitely do see it as a vicious cycle: hornball males get the female population to shut down to sexuality; the withdrawn females require more aggressive advances, wittier coaxing, etc. Rinse. Repeat.

I guess that's how power stays entrenched.

Let's review:

Your strategy is - for one reason or another - not working.  Rather than alter your strategy, you have elected to instead complain about the reasons it isn't working, filtered heavily by your own biases.  

Like I said, it is what it is, and bitching isn't going to change a fucking thing.  Either adapt your strategy, or accept the results.

I mean, it's not like taking a stand on principle on OKC is going to get you a place next to Socrates, right?  

First off, you know nothing about my strategy on OkC. It's not really part of what I'm talking about here.

Second, I've already made it clear (in direct response to one of your posts -- you read it, right?) that one of the whole reasons I'm talking about this is because I'm revising my dating strategy in general. So there goes your theory about me being content to rest on my laurels and bitch.

I'm just saying: you seem to want to fit things into very pat little boxes and package them up with pithy statements that sound good on paper but don't actually mean much.

OR...girls are getting so shellshocked from these fuckwads and give up on the online scene entirely, leaving honest nice guys out in the cold, because the rest of the men in the world are disgusting penis-photo obsessed grunting losers.

That's kind of the theory I'm advancing, yeah. A relatively small subset of males are doing things with such wide negative impact. And I gather that when you combine that with all my specific weirdness, I'm just essentially shut out of a "mainstream" site like OkC.

I definitely do see it as a vicious cycle: hornball males get the female population to shut down to sexuality; the withdrawn females require more aggressive advances, wittier coaxing, etc. Rinse. Repeat.

I guess that's how power stays entrenched.

Now, I'll also note there have been notable changes in my world during that time period: I've gained a moderate amount of weight, which turned me from rail-thin skinny to mildly pudgy. I also have learned tons about myself, which has led to some factors which I'm sure are dealbreakers (or at least intimidating) to many. I now am certain I wish to remain childfree, I openly identify as bi and poly, and I live with my best friend, who is also an ex.

I think this combination narrows your options down to "Mango".

Yeah, I know. Well, at least compared to the average OkC user. Part of the reason I'm posting this is because I'm gauging whether or not OkC is even a useful tool for me anymore, given my 10,000 weird circumstances. I think I need to just start marketing my ass in places where qualifiers like mine are pre-selected for, on poly sites & conferences and places like that.

Futhermore, god forbid a decent, articulate human male actually is looking for a relatively casual sexual encounter. How is he supposed to go about it without looking like one of "those guys"?

Who do you think "those guys" are?  Human males looking for casual sexual encounters.

Enh, sorta. I was kinda unclear. I'm making a distinction between the guys ("hornballs") who have no sense of decorum and can't speak English (1st message = "u filthy slut i wanna fuck u rite now") and guys who, when cruising for sex, still act like socially-adjusted human beings. I'm arguing that looking for sex shouldn't be the thing that makes women instantly decide on radio silence. If it's clear you've got a human being on the line and not a Neanderthal, you can probably shoot him a thanks-but-no-thanks and still be fine. (Although based on people's responses I'm beginning to doubt that, too.)

You sound like one of those whiny sensitive new-age guys who almost never gets laid and wants to know what's wrong with everyone who won't sleep with you and is incensed (INCENSED, I SAY!) that apparently a whole lot of women who are on the internet looking for casual sex really don't give two shits about your intellect and how deep you are and would rather sleep with a good-looking (or at least self-confident) guy who isn't too shy to let them know what he wants.

Not saying you ARE one of those guys, but if that's how it comes across here, to us, imagine how it comes across to actual girls.

Hustle, remember that time a couple of years ago when I told you that I didn't like your attitude and I was going to ignore everything you had to say? Yeah. Just a reminder.

I'm arguing that looking for sex shouldn't be the thing that makes women instantly decide on radio silence.

Why?  Both types are viewing them as disposable objects, just one is more polite than the other.

Who the hell wants to be ordered up online like a book at Amazon?

That's a pretty cynical view of human sexuality. It doesn't have to be black-and-white, romantic partnered coochy-woochy snookums lovemaking vs. ruthless objectifying selfishness.

Now, I'll also note there have been notable changes in my world during that time period: I've gained a moderate amount of weight, which turned me from rail-thin skinny to mildly pudgy. I also have learned tons about myself, which has led to some factors which I'm sure are dealbreakers (or at least intimidating) to many. I now am certain I wish to remain childfree, I openly identify as bi and poly, and I live with my best friend, who is also an ex.

I think this combination narrows your options down to "Mango".

Yeah, I know. Well, at least compared to the average OkC user. Part of the reason I'm posting this is because I'm gauging whether or not OkC is even a useful tool for me anymore, given my 10,000 weird circumstances. I think I need to just start marketing my ass in places where qualifiers like mine are pre-selected for, on poly sites & conferences and places like that.

Futhermore, god forbid a decent, articulate human male actually is looking for a relatively casual sexual encounter. How is he supposed to go about it without looking like one of "those guys"?

Who do you think "those guys" are?  Human males looking for casual sexual encounters.

Enh, sorta. I was kinda unclear. I'm making a distinction between the guys ("hornballs") who have no sense of decorum and can't speak English (1st message = "u filthy slut i wanna fuck u rite now") and guys who, when cruising for sex, still act like socially-adjusted human beings. I'm arguing that looking for sex shouldn't be the thing that makes women instantly decide on radio silence. If it's clear you've got a human being on the line and not a Neanderthal, you can probably shoot him a thanks-but-no-thanks and still be fine. (Although based on people's responses I'm beginning to doubt that, too.)

There's a scene in the movie "Koyaanisqatsi" that strikes me as a pretty good metaphor for OkCupid lately. First there's a shot of a slew of people crammed onto an escalator, riding along to some mall destination. Then the movie jump-cuts to hot dogs flying off of the production line in a meatpacking plant. For me, it was the movie's most striking moment, and certainly its most antisocial. The first shot seems to ask, "Who are all these people? Where are they going? Why do they need this weird apparatus to do it?" The movie's answer to all of the above questions? "MEAT."

I am one of many sausages fresh off the seemingly endless supply line. I am a guy on OkCupid. And lately it fucking sucks to be here.

I'd like to think that in the year 2011 we're well enough past the "online dating is creepy" stigma phase. As an internet-savvy youf myself, I kind of considered that phase over in 2003-2004, around the time when Match.com launched its massive advertising campaign and Nerve.com personals were the go-to spot for attractive, alternative-y 20somethings. We had learned that, yes, there were creeps and viruses on the internet, but there was also FREE MUSIC AND HOT PEOPLE, and god damn if that didn't facilitate learning how to sort the crap from the awesome. And circa 2005, when MySpace got big and Google became a household verb, forget about it. With the advent of social networking and Googlestalking, we were all free to date online with relative safety and without stigma.

As a personal anecdote, I've been an OkCupid member since 2004, 2005—somewhere thereabouts, and I don't remember or care exactly when. And yeah, I know anecdote is not evidence, but for what it's worth: a healthy amount of OkC activity in the years 200X-2007 has dropped off to almost nil in the past three years (2008-2011). Now, I'll also note there have been notable changes in my world during that time period: I've gained a moderate amount of weight, which turned me from rail-thin skinny to mildly pudgy. I also have learned tons about myself, which has led to some factors which I'm sure are dealbreakers (or at least intimidating) to many. I now am certain I wish to remain childfree, I openly identify as bi and poly, and I live with my best friend, who is also an ex.

So I'm not suggesting that OkC is the only thing that's changed here. As a good scientist, I have to note that too many variables have changed to make any sort of umbrella assessment. That said, this site has turned into a fucking wasteland.

"I'm beginning to think I'm like the Death Knell of OkCupid," I posted on my Facebook a few weeks ago. "Roughly 1/4 of the hotties I'd like to hit on end up deleting/un-activating their profile within a couple of months of my visit. Is that just a normal rate of attrition for that site, or am I driving them away, screaming and horrified?"

"The hotter the girl the higher the delete rate," responded my brother. "I haven't seen a truly good looking girl make it more than a month before deleting their profile or just going dark. They get impossible amounts of mail - more than they could ever respond to - and when they figure out a month in that the deluge isn't going to stop and most of the messages are pervy, most girls pull the plug."

It's alarming, the number of attractive women who register, create great profiles, and then suddenly disappear a few months later. Sad as it is, I think my brother hit the nail on the head.

Many women users find themselves in the position of fending off the hornballs by posting stringent requirements at the very top of their profiles. I see women saying things along the lines of "don't message me if you're married" in enough numbers to suggest that there are actually creeper men out there who are mentioning their marriages in their opening messages. As though women would consider a tryst with them HOTTER than the average no-strings-attached lay. For real? And even barring that case, plenty of women still feel the need to explicitly ban sexuality from their dating profile as a safety measure, to the point where there's so much pussyfooting around the topic ("Just looking for friends and then we'll see what happens") that one wonders if they're even sexual beings at all.

Personally, I'm upset by the massive decrease in responses from females I write to. It used to be that a "wink" or an "added to favorites" didn't merit a response—and then it became clear how useless those features were on a dating site. One hopes for articulate partners, right? So then it changed and a dashed-off message didn't merit a response. But now we're at the point where even a thoughtful intro message are still routinely met with complete radio silence in the name of etiquette. I've written many messages that indicate that not only have I read the person's profile, but that I actually found it interesting and attractive, have something in common with them, and am a smiling human being with a sense of humor. Lately I even usually say something along the lines of "Please drop me a line even if you're not interested—I'd prefer a 'No thanks' to no answer at all."

Even with an escape hatch built into my opening message, I still get nuthin'. Nada.

Dude, I get that I'm not Johnny Depp. I understand that I have some weird traits compared to the average Joe. But seriously—no response? Do you ignore people when they hold the door for you, too? Do you tip at restaurants?

So I'm wondering: Has OkCupid reached its critical sausage mass? Are there just too many guys too desperate for pussy? Is the group of hornball guys—and I do believe they're the minority—just so big at this point that they're scaring off the female userbase? Are people with specialty needs and identities like mine (Buddhist, childfree, poly, queer, etc.) leaving mainstream-oriented sites like OkC for more niche-oriented sites (DharmaDate, PolyMatchMaker, FetLife, etc.)?

Whatever the reason, it has resulted in lots of negative circumstances for the male user base. There is currently an OVERWHELMING pressure for decent, interested fellas to write brilliant, literary-quality opening messages to females. We just can't meet those standards. Everyone wants to be disarmed by brilliant wit. The rest of us are stuck with conversation. Futhermore, god forbid a decent, articulate human male actually is looking for a relatively casual sexual encounter. How is he supposed to go about it without looking like one of "those guys"? What if he, like many human beings, wants to explore his sexuality? The female OkC userbase is so busy swatting down the Neanderthals that there's no room for actual sex-positive dialogue from either side of the fence.

So I have some reminders for the guys and the girls.

Guys: Up your fucking game. Don't write messages with your dick. As Dan Savage put it this week, "drain your sack" before you get on here and message ladies. Otherwise it's like you're going grocery shopping on an empty stomach. You just don't do it.

Girls: There are actual male human beings messaging you, and you're writing them off because of the sex-crazed horndogs who do a disservice to my sex/gender. Fucking stop being cowardly and have the decency to say "Thanks, but I'm not interested right now" to the kind but unattractive fellas who write non-cookie-cutter messages. (Although if there's any chance they could've cut-and-pasted their message, radio silence is the way to go.)

Everyone: Be more forthright about what you want and don't want, need and don't need. Work for gender equality. Talk to people online the way you would in real life. Let your sexuality be a regular normal thing, instead of something that scares you or controls you. Don't waste people's time. Say thank you when someone compliments you. Take no for an answer. Don't be afraid to say no as your answer. Wake up. Fight back. Damage the status quo. It's fun.