Principia Discordia

Whatever you vote for gets to control the world forever.

Think about the worst case scenario for each one.

State power, the state should in theory represent people, religions represent the will of intangible gods, and corporations represent the will of intangible demons

State power, because watching the other two cry is more fun.

State power. Both religious and corporate power have a "higher power" to appeal to when they don't want to give you a chance. State power demands the functioning of the state, and has no lower OR higher goal in the long term. The state's power is made up of the people. So in even the worst cases, there is a long view whereby the state will eventually cave to demands, e.g. by regime change.

Corporate power would focus only on short term goals with little to no concern for the population until humans were extinct.

State power would at least have some investment in the idea of having someone to rule over, but would micro-manage every aspect of daily life right down to assigned breeding programs.

Religious power also would have investment in the idea of having worshipers for whatever deity, and would micro-manage the population's lives but with less logical goals and rules.

hehe, so in that order:
Weyland Yutani
The Party from 1984
Or Warhammer 40K

Yeah the thing I like best about state tyranny is democratic elections, but "state power" is also monarchs, insane bureaucracies, and fake elections.

with corporate power, you end up with slavery, and those doors from Ubik that won't let you out of your own house until you insert a nickel.

with religious power, you get an attempt to control one's inner world, criminalization of experiences and impulses, power that rests on the wholly intangible


I almost added a "mob rule" option but I thought that would be too easy -- although that dystopia includes lynchings and having people surround your house for days, taking dumps on your lawn, because you wrote an article criticizing mob rule

The end extreme of mob rule is random violence, but there isn't much power to drive that in that kind of world, so it would require a general population wide agreement to murder people.

In other words, what would happen if you stranded cops on an island.

More seriously, I considered Nazi Germany the end result of state power gone mad. In theory it can get worse, just not for me.

Corporate and religious power enables all the same abuses as Nazi Germany, but disguised as "the invisible hand of the free market" and "the will of god". That sort of dishonesty prevents any attempt to engage with it. Nazis are vile, but their very atrociousness enables people to recognize they're horrible.

The state only has power so long as there are in fact people to rule. The people aren't the source of the power, they are that power, as they don't merely have the state's edicts enforced on them, but help enforce the same.

State power always includes room for adaptation. There is no invisible hand of the free market, or a god, so there is a final, unquestionable place you can pass the buck to. "We'll see what the market says." "Pray to god and see if he answers." The final seat of power is a real person, or a document set down by same, in any state.

Caveat:  I get to choose the religion.

Well, we're already under corporate power, so a religious tyranny at least would make me feel edgy and special. Would also be interesting how in the fuck they would pull it off in the 21st century.

Religion by far. The worst part of State/Corporate tyranny is they dont believe in any of it. Theyll crush your entire life and put out a fucking meticulously lawyer approved press release that doesnt even say anything. At least under Religious tyranny Id know I was getting dumped into a mass grave by someone whos passionate about killing me. Someone who thinks hes getting eternal life and his own personal harem for killing me. The state death squad is just killing me because some guy in an office signed a paper, and the corporate death squad is just killing me so they meet their quota and get an office pizza party.

State power - Dull, bureaucratic and unsustainable
Corporate power - (Current) Really fucking easy to game
Religious power - Really fucking easy to game but it'd be a welcome change of pace so I'm voting for this

So what would you call a benevolent Buddhist theocracy running a chill subsistence economy with no private property beyond personal effects? I guess you could call that all three.

Quote from: Dildo Argentino on July 03, 2020, 12:59:38 PM
So what would you call a benevolent Buddhist theocracy running a chill subsistence economy with no private property beyond personal effects? I guess you could call that all three.

It's called Canada.

NOBODY wants corporate power??

that makes sense

For fun, let's imagine a corporate UTOPIA


I could imagine an employee-owned company operating as a sane and just government. And employee-owned companies tend to be less exploitative, and have better profit sharing.

You'd still have that pesky "rule by committee" problem -- that is, they tend to be slow and clumsy, although that might actually be a benefit in some ways

But I could imagine a company allocating resources and organizing labor better than a state bureaucracy.

I can't.

C'mon Cram you've worked for large companies before. They're hilariously inefficient. The idea that they're inherently better at allocating resources can be disproven by looking at the sheer, vast amounts of dead weight that make up middle management.

oh yeah, I'm just talking about utopias--best possible scenarios. I couldn't imagine any corporate, state, or religious themed utopia actually coming about.

What would a corporate utopia look like?

In the "good" corporate-owned future, I imagine it's an employee-owned company - one where the company is accountable to shareholder citizens.





yeah yeah yeah 99% of the shares would instantly be controlled by 1% of the shareholders, but that's why you have an uhhhh, constitution or something? Wealth for everybody!  :ECH:

Probably something like a Silicon Valley tech startup, if we're talking utopia. Generous "in-house" benefits, but your entire life is effectively owned by the company. Company gym, supermarket, housing probably...

That shit is a nightmare I've heard. Because people who do start-ups with lots of perks are clumsy, rich sociopaths who know they have no other hope of collecting and retaining talent but to swindle them into joining and lovebomb them into staying.

Quote from: altered on July 06, 2020, 10:08:39 PM
That shit is a nightmare I've heard. Because people who do start-ups with lots of perks are clumsy, rich sociopaths who know they have no other hope of collecting and retaining talent but to swindle them into joining and lovebomb them into staying.

Also see, "Curt Schilling".

Every utopia is just a dystopia with good branding.

Quote from: Cramulus on July 06, 2020, 09:05:53 PM
NOBODY wants corporate power??

that makes sense

For fun, let's imagine a corporate UTOPIA


I could imagine an employee-owned company operating as a sane and just government.

What's the difference between that and a worker-controlled state?

Quote from: Cramulus on July 06, 2020, 09:05:53 PM
NOBODY wants corporate power??

that makes sense

For fun, let's imagine a corporate UTOPIA


I could imagine an employee-owned company operating as a sane and just government. And employee-owned companies tend to be less exploitative, and have better profit sharing.

You'd still have that pesky "rule by committee" problem -- that is, they tend to be slow and clumsy, although that might actually be a benefit in some ways

But I could imagine a company allocating resources and organizing labor better than a state bureaucracy.

1.  I am a corporate oppressive power structure, so I don't need one.

2.  Running a corporation as an employee run business, though, is as bad as trying to run a government like a business.  It's a category error.  Corporations are defined as businesses controlled by a board of shareholders (either in their own person or as a representative of lots of smaller shareholders.)  If it is employee-owned, it is not a corporation, it's a co-op.  Both have their own advantages and disadvantages. 

3.  I am a corporate utopia, so I don't need one.  I am in fact an expression of a corporation, at least while I am at work.  I used to preach against this, but of course I also used to be young.

The main difference is what fines get called.

Corporate - service charge
Religious - indulgences
Gov - penalty notice.

I'm guessing we're probably quite close to moving to corporate without much changing. Whether you like it or not, Jeff bezos is probably a wealthier than what, 5 nations?  10?

"hi, welcome to Pepsi. Due to flying from Starbucks, there's a convinience charge. If you need translation help, please ask anyone from McDonald's to assist. For passengers connecting on to amazon, please register your social credit information for a discount and your preferences in targeted marketing. Intel passengers may now begin to disembark"

the religious utopia has socialized enlightenment

Junkenstein.  That sounds like the book, Jennifer Government.
A quick, fun read. I recommend.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on July 07, 2020, 02:02:00 PM
Junkenstein.  That sounds like the book, Jennifer Government.
A quick, fun read. I recommend.

I remember this board playing the online version, years ago.  It was kind of fun.

Huh!
Never heard of that.  Nation states....
I'll have to give that a go.