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Messages - Dimocritus

#16
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:20:02 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on April 26, 2020, 12:39:23 AM
The small step part is important, but it's not that voting Biden now will give us the chance to vote for someone better next time, if Biden wins then the real work, protests, strikes, mass movement, will all be much easier and folks will be less likely to be killed doing them.  Voting is nowhere near enough, Biden isnt going to fix anything, but he's going to break less things than Trump and the government was never going to fix things, not even under Sanders.  That's up to the people.

This is similar to the angle I've been working. Voting for Biden is not "voting for the lesser of two evils" and, therefore, voting for evil. It's a strategic move that allows us to regroup.
#17
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:12:36 PM
Sorry I've been away. Losing all fucking sense of time, what with being stuck in a time loop forever and all. I started having conversations with some of my piers (including some self-identifying republicans) and they've gone over better than I thought they would. But, the DNC couldn't make this any more difficult for me, doing things like removing Bernie from the NY primary ballot. No one I know that is a Bernie supporter believes that he has a chance of winning, but removing all opportunities for them to voice their opinions is leaving a real sour taste in their mouths. Is the DNC so spectacularly tone-deaf, or are they intentionally self destructing? I don't really see how it could be anything else. Like, never mind an olive branch for progressives, how about just NOT farting in their cereal and laughing?
#18
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: Help
April 25, 2020, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 25, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.

Look, this is really simple.

If after 4 years of Trump being president, anyone says that they won't take the best chance to remove him, then that person never cared about society in the first place, and their posturing is nothing but a grotesque validation wank.

Oh ok, so then I won't bother trying then. Thanks for your insight. Really glad I asked.
#19
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Re: Help
April 25, 2020, 08:02:40 AM
Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 07:20:09 AM
Here's the problem I've found trying to make this argument:

Either these people have nothing to lose, or they are True Believers.

Sounds dismissive?

Try saying: hey, maybe we could have four years of queer people not dying miserable, preventable deaths due to medical bigotry. Maybe we could not have the Supreme Court even more stacked against us for the rest of our lifetimes.

Maybe saving people is the right move.

If those arguments don't work, it would take Holy Writ, and they might even ignore that. If they've let their convictions take on more value than human lives, then the certain betrayal of their convictions outweighs a reduction in suffering. That condition is one that I have never been able to bring someone back from, least of all in a message that works on broad swaths of people.

If I manage to vote, I'll vote Biden. I'll hold my nose and do the deed despite feeling outraged and horrified that the good choice is that fucking bad.

I'll do it because I don't want to die, and I have so many friends I don't want to die either. And in the end, that is what four more years of Trump will do, when you can't even get necessary medical treatment because you might be queer.

I understand your point but I do think it's a bit dismissive and I'm not totally sure that throwing your hands up and declaring that they are "unreachable" is the best strategy at this point. Like it or not, we kinda need them.

I think very few Berners are "True Believers" and I think it's more likely that they feel hopeless and/or helpless rather than that they feel that they have "nothing to lose." I think that they feel like they have EVERYTHING to lose and they do not see a path that prevents them, their friends, and their families from losing everything. All in all, Berners, at least the ones that I know ARE intelligent and compassionate people that just feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

Maybe if they can be presented with something that gives them a glimmer of hope they can be persuaded. Maybe frame the whole "voting Biden" thing as a small step towards something bigger? Maybe? I really don't know which is why I'm here.

Mind you, I don't even CARE at this point if I'm being TRUTHFUL to these people, as long as I can influence them to get Orange Hitler the fuck out.
#20
Two vast and trunkless legs of stone / Help
April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.
#21
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 04, 2020, 08:09:13 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 07:54:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 07:33:11 PM

Here's the thing about that.... I don't give a shit. Not one shit! Not even a tiny little M&M sized pip. There are children in cages, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is holding onto life by a fingernail, there are climate change deniers and white supremicists writing gov policy.... I am not getting hung up on trivial shit like being choosy over donors. The real question is, is Liz Warren in anybody's pocket? And I honestly don't think she's suddenly gonna go all libertarian because a few corporations want to throw in with her and she said "fine, I'll take your not-coordinated-with-my-campaign money".


Y'know, you're right. No rebuttal, no buts.

The question is at this point, what can we do about this? Sure, voting and participating in the democratic process is something, but I can't help but think that there is more we can do on a kind of clandestine, underground level. I don't feel like we have the time to let bureaucracy run its course to even things out. I say this with no solid ideas, but it is something that is constantly churning  in the back of my mind.

I am sure that there would be something that could be done.


This is what I'm here to talk about.
#22
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 08:12:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 04, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 06:31:27 PM

This, but instead of a sword, the DNC is waving around a floppy wet noodle. Sloppy Joe is going to get torn to pieces in a debate against Drumpf the very second he starts his stumbling gibberish. Drumpf is going to openly mock him, and Drumpfs base will just go rabid.



Biden's problem is that his mouth just sort of wanders away without him.

Agreed, but that's the perfect target for Drumpfs low-blow, insult tactics.
#23
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 04, 2020, 07:57:48 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 04, 2020, 07:26:28 PM
QuoteYou can't have 5-plus people dogpile on one dude and then say that you won fair and square

This is quite literally the primary process.

In this case, yeah. Though I would argue that there's a significant difference between 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 and 1 vs. 4.
In this case, it just sped up.

It was 100% clear that the first Centrist to get a lot of delegates would be the one to go up against Sanders.  That was Biden.  All the other centrists saw they didn't have a path to the majority, and threw in with Biden.

Whether it was now, or if it was a few weeks from now, it was always going to be Centrist vs Progressive.  If Bernie had tanked in Nevada and Warren was able to get more delegates, the pile on would be against her.

I'm still not seeing what's not fair about this.

It's not really about fairness. It's about perception, which I know is a kind of an ambiguous weird abstraction, but it's what people are basing decisions on. I don't think (m)any of the candidates thought too critically about how a lot of this was going to be perceived.

Side note: LMNO, I don't want to battle with you. It's clear we have some differing opinions, but I also believe that we have far more in common, and I'd rather spend our time identifying and discussing those areas and and how to make those kinds of changes than spinning our wheels.
#24
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 07:54:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 07:33:11 PM

Here's the thing about that.... I don't give a shit. Not one shit! Not even a tiny little M&M sized pip. There are children in cages, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is holding onto life by a fingernail, there are climate change deniers and white supremicists writing gov policy.... I am not getting hung up on trivial shit like being choosy over donors. The real question is, is Liz Warren in anybody's pocket? And I honestly don't think she's suddenly gonna go all libertarian because a few corporations want to throw in with her and she said "fine, I'll take your not-coordinated-with-my-campaign money".


Y'know, you're right. No rebuttal, no buts.

The question is at this point, what can we do about this? Sure, voting and participating in the democratic process is something, but I can't help but think that there is more we can do on a kind of clandestine, underground level. I don't feel like we have the time to let bureaucracy run its course to even things out. I say this with no solid ideas, but it is something that is constantly churning  in the back of my mind.
#25
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 04, 2020, 07:26:28 PM
QuoteYou can't have 5-plus people dogpile on one dude and then say that you won fair and square

This is quite literally the primary process.

In this case, yeah. Though I would argue that there's a significant difference between 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 and 1 vs. 4.
#26
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 07:14:02 PM
Quote from: Suu on March 04, 2020, 07:00:28 PM
There is absolutely no fucking evidence that Warren was in it to split the progressive vote, especially when Bros were dragging he and anybody else who could possibly support her, calling it a "vagina vote" and other such shit. She was doing well early on, but it's not working in her favor. I think after yesterday, it's time for her to drop out.

But, far be it that a competent woman dare propose similar issues to a man, we can't have that. The man must always come out on top, or otherwise she's trying to ruin things.

Story of my fucking life, right there.

Look, I didn't have any problems with Warren up until she backpedaled on the whole super pac thing. I also think the timing is a little suspicious. 
#27
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 06:31:27 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 02:55:23 PM
yeah that's kinda what I'm feeling at the moment, too

The left wing is ineffective by design. We were DUPED into thinking we can just make a good argument and then rational people will vote for reform

It's like two people in a duel... one side has a gun. The other guy argues that only assholes use guns, so he brought a sword. And then gets shot.


This, but instead of a sword, the DNC is waving around a floppy wet noodle. Sloppy Joe is going to get torn to pieces in a debate against Drumpf the very second he starts his stumbling gibberish. Drumpf is going to openly mock him, and Drumpfs base will just go rabid.


Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 02:55:23 PM
at this stage, I have no idea what effective political activism actually looks like though

I have been pondering this myself a lot lately. We might need to get some OMF threads going to spitball some ideas.

Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 02:55:23 PM
just hoping that if Biden pulls this off, he chooses Warren or Sanders as his VP

THIS. You'll never get Bernie supporters to jump on any moderate ticket. You can't have 5-plus people dogpile on one dude and then say that you won fair and square, it's gonna be sour grapes all the way down. The only way you get a portion of those people to get out and vote is if they still feel represented in some way. I don't think Warren is the right choice, though; her campaign's sole purpose for the past month or two was to spend super pac money to just split the progressive vote. As far as Bernie bois are concerned, she's signed a pact with the establishment. However, the DNC is using their asshole as an echo chamber and I don't have any faith that they'll start making reasonable strategic decisions now.
#28
Quote from: LMNO on March 04, 2020, 12:59:16 PM
Hey Dimo!

Sorry about spagging in your FB feed.  This ol' Gen X-er was drunk and feeling bitter.

It's cool mah dood. I don't think anyone is having a fun time with all this shit going on these days.
#29
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 04, 2020, 05:18:40 AM
Quote from: Suu on March 04, 2020, 03:32:55 AM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 02:12:20 AM
So I sez to myself, "Self, where better to go to watch the crumbling of civilization than PeeDee?" And I sez back, "Can't be any worse than anywhere else."

WE HAD SIMILAR THOUGHTS

Sure, NOW you want into the bunker.   :lulz:

It's not that this is a SAFE place, it's that it's at least the type of strife I'm used to.
#30
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 04:56:07 AM
Quote from: Suu on March 04, 2020, 04:33:47 AM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 04:27:56 AM

Yes. A more eloquent response incoming when i am no longer drunk, but yes

I am too sober for this primary season. Fucking ulcers are at it again.

I don't usually drink a whole lot but I chose to tonight to stop myself from going through a "refresh tab" feedback loop.