So, yesterday I made an offhand comment to some friends that I would really like my next boyfriend to be someone who has never visited a prostitute, but that I didn't know if that's an unreasonable hope. I observed that of all the men I've been in relationships with, all but one share the curious commonality of having told me they have been with prostitutes, usually while traveling abroad, with frequency ranging from a one-time experiment to a semi-regular habit.
Space Cowboy, who is easily the awesomest person I have ever been in a relationship with, is the only one who has never paid for sex.
Curiously, my male friends, for the most part, reacted as if I had said the most reasonable thing in the world, and several commented that they didn't even know anyone who had been to a prostitute. Two of my female friends, however, challenged my reasoning, so I said that while I don't think prostitution is wrong, I think that there is a lot wrong with prostitution, and that other than, say, a youthful one-time visit out of curiosity, I don't think paying women for sex as a commodity is consistent with a feminist worldview or with my expectations of a partner.
SHIT STORM. They are acting like I am being TOTALLY unreasonable, discriminatory, and (bizarrely enough) anti-feminist.
What sayeth the peedee on this matter?
Just had fucking PD eat my Goddamn response.
Will try one more fucking time.
Visiting a prostitute strikes me as about as exciting as jacking off with a handfull of hep C. I've never even been tempted. It's hard to explain. There's something pathetic about it...It's like paying someone to be your friend.
And as far as feminism goes, I'm neutral on the subject, provided the person isn't being forced into it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 10:09:09 PM
Just had fucking PD eat my Goddamn response.
Will try one more fucking time.
Visiting a prostitute strikes me as about as exciting as jacking off with a handfull of hep C. I've never even been tempted. It's hard to explain. There's something pathetic about it...It's like paying someone to be your friend.
Haha, yeah. It seems really unappealing to me, too, but I'm not a guy. It's nice to know that most guys feel similarly, because for years I've been assuming that if all the guys I've been with have been with prostitutes, it must be a thing most men do.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 10:10:32 PM
And as far as feminism goes, I'm neutral on the subject, provided the person isn't being forced into it.
:lulz:
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
... wat. How the fuck is desiring a partner who has never paid for sex anti-feminist?
Personally, I wouldn't care, on the condition that should the habit continue there are regular STD tests. But I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. For one, I can see where your coming from, and I have always disagreed with the idea of sex as a commodity as well. So... there's that.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 28, 2011, 10:14:16 PM
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
Right on the money, EoC.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 28, 2011, 10:14:16 PM
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
Prostitution can be empowering, sure. And it can provide a needed service. However, I am not talking about the prostitutes, but those who pay for them... it seems to me that a man who is comfortable with the idea of paying for sex is probably not going to be a suitable partner for me. I would not have a similar hangup with a man who had prostituted himself, however. The buying and the selling are two very different things. I think there's something, some mental disconnect, in the minds of people who pay for sex... it seems very compartmentalized to me. It makes sex a "thing".
While not really opposed to people visiting prostitutes I don't entirely understand why anyone would do it.
Usually all it really takes to get laid is the willingness to take a shower and not be a complete douche bag while out in public places.
I've never paid for sex and never intend to. For me it's more about the connection than the physical sensation anyways, and you can't buy connection.
I don't have any problem with people who pay for it, or who get paid for it, they just enjoy a different part of sex than I do. I don't think a john is anti-feminist, but I do think that sex with someone who pays for sex might not be very satisfying for me, or for anyone for whom that connection is a vital part of it all.
I think it's like what Dear Coke Talk says about the difference between a prostitute and a whore. A prostitute is a sex worker, plain and simple. They do it because they're good at it, because they enjoy it, or because they have to work like any other person who needs to eat and sleep somewhere.
A whore is someone who does it against their principles.
The former can be empowering. The later never will be.
I think that in a perfect world visit a prostitute wouldn't be an inherently unfeminist act, but in the world as it stands currently, it is at the very least at odds with the principles of feminism... especially in countries like Thailand or Singapore.
I definitely am seeking a partnership with a person who views sex as a vital part of the partnership connection with another human being, and not as a commodity. That's been lacking in my relationships so far, except for my relationship with Space Cowboy, and while the sample is too small to be anything but anecdotal, I think there might be a connection.
Anyone who thinks your view is "anti-feminist" is a narrow-viewed fuck and I would personally limit my exposure to said person. I don't have a problem with prostitution, but I do have a problem with human slavery, and like you mention Nigel, in a lot of countries these women are not in it for the lulz.
I used to work for an Escort Agency as a photographer and web administrator back in the day (before buying sex became illegal here in Norway), and I must agree with Kai and Dear Coke Talk.
The only viable reason I can see for visiting a prostitute is if you have a particular fetish you want satisfied without having to comb the honky tonks and bars (and the internet) to find a partner. These are very rare though.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 28, 2011, 10:14:16 PM
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
"Your body is a commodity".
How very empowering.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 28, 2011, 11:24:52 PM
I've never paid for sex and never intend to. For me it's more about the connection than the physical sensation anyways, and you can't buy connection.
I don't have any problem with people who pay for it, or who get paid for it, they just enjoy a different part of sex than I do. I don't think a john is anti-feminist, but I do think that sex with someone who pays for sex might not be very satisfying for me, or for anyone for whom that connection is a vital part of it all.
And for you, there's always the morgue.
Seems to me that prostitution would be just as empowering as, say, selling plasma.
Hey, man, nobody's asking you to do it.
Plus we all know you'd charge by the hair and frankly, there isn't enough money in the Federal Reserve.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 29, 2011, 12:01:31 AM
Hey, man, nobody's asking you to do it.
Plus we all know you'd charge by the hair and frankly, there isn't enough money in the Federal Reserve.
Fuck that. The only currency I would accept would be human organs. The depravity of the act in question would dictate the importance of the organ.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:47:41 PM
Seems to me that prostitution would be just as empowering as, say, selling plasma.
I am gradually growing to seriously question the "Sex work as empowerment" rhetoric that has been emerging in recent years. I understand the idea of reclaiming and taking power over sex work rather than being subjugated, and I understand the idea of gaining a sense of empowerment over a previously injured sense of sexuality, but I also think that sex-as-commodity is an inherently harmful way of thinking about it.
But I fap to porn.
Quote from: Hoopla on November 28, 2011, 11:36:36 PM
Anyone who thinks your view is "anti-feminist" is a narrow-viewed fuck and I would personally limit my exposure to said person. I don't have a problem with prostitution, but I do have a problem with human slavery, and like you mention Nigel, in a lot of countries these women are not in it for the lulz.
Hoopla! I love your straight-shooting answers. You don't post enough!
are male escorts seen as 'empowered'?
i don't think so.
i don't have any problem with it philosophically, and sure as shit don't think the govt. should be involved in any way they aren't with say, accounting....
but then again, i haven't ever thought it would be a fun thing to visit a prostitute, and i wouldn't want my child to choose the profession.
like you, Nigel, we like porn though, and that's not too far off....
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 28, 2011, 10:14:16 PM
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
"Your body is a commodity".
How very empowering.
How is that any different than other people who's time is a commodity, or skills are a commodity? The commodification isn't the work itself, it's the way a person is treated.
For example, I have quite a bit of skill in aquatic insect identification. I could do consulting work for people, work for a museum, any number of things, and my skills, which are part of who I am, would not be commodified.
Or I could join a consulting firm, get put in an office space with 7 other people, and sort and identify samples 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the rest of my life.
Commodification is all about treatment. If your worth as a person is decided on one aspect of who you are, then you are a commodity. Whether you are a prostitute or a university professor.
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 29, 2011, 12:39:14 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 28, 2011, 10:14:16 PM
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
"Your body is a commodity".
How very empowering.
How is that any different than other people who's time is a commodity, or skills are a commodity? The commodification isn't the work itself, it's the way a person is treated.
For example, I have quite a bit of skill in aquatic insect identification. I could do consulting work for people, work for a museum, any number of things, and my skills, which are part of who I am, would not be commodified.
Or I could join a consulting firm, get put in an office space with 7 other people, and sort and identify samples 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the rest of my life.
Commodification is all about treatment. If your worth as a person is decided on one aspect of who you are, then you are a commodity. Whether you are a prostitute or a university professor.
Commodification, by definition, is not about treatment, it's about commerce.
Sex, like eating and giving birth, is a biological function. It's not exchangeable, it's not interchangeable, and it's deeply personal. Using it in commerce depersonalizes and compartmentalizes something that can't really be separated from the person, so in that sense, it is very different from the things you compared it to.
I'm fine with carefully controlled prostitution - unions and rights for sex workers, government oversight, etc. Sex CAN be a commodity, but it's the right of the woman (or man, yes) to sell it, if s/he chooses to.
But I understand not wanting a partner who's visited one. I don't want that in someone, either, and I don't think it's unfeminist. It is, however, unfeminist to try to tell a woman what she should want in a partner, because a woman has every damn right in the world to prefer someone who sees sex as a connection, not a commodity. You're not shitting on sex workers (in your case; someone with the same sentiment can be shitting on sex workers for misogynistic reasons), you just have a preference for how your partner sees the act.
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 12:50:14 AM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 29, 2011, 12:39:14 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2011, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 28, 2011, 10:14:16 PM
Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.
Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic. It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.
"Your body is a commodity".
How very empowering.
How is that any different than other people who's time is a commodity, or skills are a commodity? The commodification isn't the work itself, it's the way a person is treated.
For example, I have quite a bit of skill in aquatic insect identification. I could do consulting work for people, work for a museum, any number of things, and my skills, which are part of who I am, would not be commodified.
Or I could join a consulting firm, get put in an office space with 7 other people, and sort and identify samples 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the rest of my life.
Commodification is all about treatment. If your worth as a person is decided on one aspect of who you are, then you are a commodity. Whether you are a prostitute or a university professor.
Commodification, by definition, is not about treatment, it's about commerce.
Sex, like eating and giving birth, is a biological function. It's not exchangeable, it's not interchangeable, and it's deeply personal. Using it in commerce depersonalizes and compartmentalizes something that can't really be separated from the person, so in that sense, it is very different from the things you compared it to.
I guess I was using the wrong definition.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 12:56:02 AM
I'm fine with carefully controlled prostitution - unions and rights for sex workers, government oversight, etc. Sex CAN be a commodity, but it's the right of the woman (or man, yes) to sell it, if s/he chooses to.
But I understand not wanting a partner who's visited one. I don't want that in someone, either, and I don't think it's unfeminist. It is, however, unfeminist to try to tell a woman what she should want in a partner, because a woman has every damn right in the world to prefer someone who sees sex as a connection, not a commodity. You're not shitting on sex workers (in your case; someone with the same sentiment can be shitting on sex workers for misogynistic reasons), you just have a preference for how your partner sees the act.
I agree that people have the right to do what they please with their bodies, but that's not the same as "empowering".
The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*
All I know is that I've met a lot of prostitutes in my varied and rather slimy collection of careers, and not one of them was "empowered". Mostly, they were burnt out husks that at some point were someone's children. By the time I ran into them, they didn't have any child left in them at all, and they had the hardest eyes I've ever seen.
They reminded me of nothing I've ever seen before, outside of a reptile house at the zoo.
Sex can be commodified. I don't think it's healthy to commodify sex, but it's certainly possible.
I think that some of the reaction I got was that people assumed I was placing a moral value on prostitution. One person asked me if I would think less of someone who hired a gigolo. People thought I was passing judgement.
I am. I am judging people who pay for sex as unfit to be my partner. As a former sex worker, and a woman who has had relationships with men who have paid for sex, I am also judging people who pay for sex as being probably a little broken, a little off, and a little disconnected, because in my experience that was always the case.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 02:20:11 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*
All I know is that I've met a lot of prostitutes in my varied and rather slimy collection of careers, and not one of them was "empowered". Mostly, they were burnt out husks that at some point were someone's children. By the time I ran into them, they didn't have any child left in them at all, and they had the hardest eyes I've ever seen.
They reminded me of nothing I've ever seen before, outside of a reptile house at the zoo.
Like I said, can/has the potential to. I'd agree that in nearly all cases it's not, because it's not really a profession most people get into because they want to and there's a lot of stigma associated with it, not to mention a whole heap of other issues.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 02:20:11 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*
All I know is that I've met a lot of prostitutes in my varied and rather slimy collection of careers, and not one of them was "empowered". Mostly, they were burnt out husks that at some point were someone's children. By the time I ran into them, they didn't have any child left in them at all, and they had the hardest eyes I've ever seen.
They reminded me of nothing I've ever seen before, outside of a reptile house at the zoo.
not having known any prostitutes or having any basis on which to speculate, i wonder whether very high prices prostitutes have less of a hollowing out than the economy priced souls...
Quote from: Iptuous on November 29, 2011, 02:30:46 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 02:20:11 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on November 29, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*
All I know is that I've met a lot of prostitutes in my varied and rather slimy collection of careers, and not one of them was "empowered". Mostly, they were burnt out husks that at some point were someone's children. By the time I ran into them, they didn't have any child left in them at all, and they had the hardest eyes I've ever seen.
They reminded me of nothing I've ever seen before, outside of a reptile house at the zoo.
not having known any prostitutes or having any basis on which to speculate, i wonder whether very high prices prostitutes have less of a hollowing out than the economy priced souls...
They're normally the same people, after the "porn starlet effect" has had time to work its magic.
Personally, I think that what burns them out is the fact, ground into them (literally every day), that they're a sex toilet.
Fact: Most Johns - again, in my experience - either go to prostitutes because they are vile in some way (and can't get any for free), or because they have some hideous kink that the wifey won't deliver on. The remaining balance usually go because they want to get their rocks off with some strange, and anything will do.
I am not saying they don't exist, but I have never in person EVER met a sex worker who does it because they like the job. Even the dominatrixes hate what they do, and who they do it with/to.
Again, this is only in my experience.
Nigel, I'm interested in your opinion of prostitution versus pornography, and if the latter can be "empowering".
The role of sex, (need, a want, commodity, right, privilege, etc) changes a lot from person to person, and amongst cultures. The ethics of it really seem to hinge on what role it's filling. These same ethics usually fly out the window when bartering or capitalism come in.
Granted, we are also, to some uncertain degree, wired and hormoned to equate sex with relationships, so it seeming odd outside of that makes sense. Strip that away, and you have one person being paid to rub another person with certain parts of their body. Not to take an underhanded shot at masseurs here. If I were being beaten by street thugs to rub between the fetid folds of slathering cetacean widowed oil baronesses while addicted to 3 drugs and having the hemorrhoids of Sisyphus... Yeah, bad scene for ANYONE. If it was what I enjoyed doing, had a reasonable clientele, and could make a good amount of cash providing that service then, rock on. (Personally, I would still not use any genitals.)
On the commodity side of things though, I'd like to think any person can make themselves more useful than a hole.
This is something I thought about a lot. It made more sense when you separate prostistution from being inherently related to feminism.
I agree that it can say a lot about sexual atitudes. But also, theres a difference between an attitude to sex, and an attitude to sex in the context of a relationship.
I agree with your assessment Nigel, but I don't even like strip clubs. I went on my 21st birthday because both my friend and girlfriend at the time insisted that it was a rite of passage or something. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy watching women take off their clothes but when it involves money and a high prevalence of sad, sexually frustrated men in the vicinity it kind of ruins it. The naked bike ride is far more titillating.
I've never had the idea of going to a prostitute cross my mind, even when I had money to burn. Half the fun of getting laid is the psychological and emotional exchanges leading up to it. And I just can't imagine fucking a prostitute would be more gratifying than a good wank either. I just don't get it, so my input here probably isn't very helpful.
Quote from: Net on November 29, 2011, 06:10:50 AM
I agree with your assessment Nigel, but I don't even like strip clubs. I went on my 21st birthday because both my friend and girlfriend at the time insisted that it was a rite of passage or something. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy watching women take off their clothes but when it involves money and a high prevalence of sad, sexually frustrated men in the vicinity it kind of ruins it. The naked bike ride is far more titillating.
Strip clubs tend to depress the hell out of me. Something about how obvious it usually is that the stripper is trying to pretend they're anywhere else.
I wouldn't be comfortable going to a prostitute not because of any value I place on sex but because I wouldn't know whether she had sought out the occupation or was a victim of circumstance. The possibility of the latter would make it feel too exploitative.
This subject has been in my mind from time to time for a while. I have observations and speculations on the subject, but they're a bit disjointed. Let me clarify my own situation first.
I have never paid for sex and would never. I've had the offer to get paid. I'm not saying this to boast. I turned it down because even as a man "hooking a girl up" it seemed wrong to me on a visceral level. That said, the offer was during a time of financial security and there was no pressure in that sense. It is VERY easy in my experience to compromise principal for cash when desperate.
Any real problems with the activity are made worse by the illegality of it. It's much like when abortion was illegal, dangerous, and sleazy... in my opinion. Many problems were addressed and resolved with the legalization and regulation of abortion. The social fallout was immense, but amounted to whining about how things should be like they were in the past because *INSERT MORAL AUTHORITY HERE* said it was inherently wrong. I have trouble with considering things to be inherently wrong. It usually means there's a control issue at stake. I believe sexual function is inherently about control. Please bear with me.
The horrible side of the sex industry is obvious and pervasive. I have also witnessed the shells left over after a lifetime of psychological, physical, chemical, and, if I may, spiritual abuse. It is TRULY horrible, but these exact same things are found in other corrupted sectors of society. These inevitable sexual activities of ours are seen as illegitimate and cast out into the shadows of our social order. It's in the shadows that the bad becomes diabolical.
Even some idealized high-end brothel with happy and well maintained staff engaging of their own free will is likely an outlet for repressed sexual expression for the upper-crust that can afford it's luxury. They become slaves to both the easy addiction and perhaps the potential blackmail that can result. This leads to that sector of society becoming manipulable by the very portion of society that has something to gain by keeping the sex industry illegal and sexuality shameful. The portion I'm talking about are criminals, deceivers, and controllers. These types often go to great lengths to appear unassailable, morally legitimate, or both. They are usually neither.
The silly pimps making a game of themselves and the furtive televangelists getting behind-the-pulpit handjobs are the least of the symptoms. To me the real illness is in the individual people that cannot find expression or have been abused by someone who could not. It's sick and cyclical. One abuse leads easily to another and multiplies through those hurt. It makes me a bit sick just thinking about how easy it is to do damage since there is no easy way to repair the damage once it's done. Recovery is necessary, but it would seem to me that the answer is in prevention and not treatment.
I don't have the answer yet. It's late now and I need to try to sleep. I'll catch up on the thread later, peace all.
it's a touchy subject
Quote from: rong on November 29, 2011, 08:02:37 AM
it's a touchy subject
:argh!: :lol:
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 02:21:39 AM
Sex can be commodified. I don't think it's healthy to commodify sex, but it's certainly possible.
I think that some of the reaction I got was that people assumed I was placing a moral value on prostitution. One person asked me if I would think less of someone who hired a gigolo. People thought I was passing judgement.
I am. I am judging people who pay for sex as unfit to be my partner. As a former sex worker, and a woman who has had relationships with men who have paid for sex, I am also judging people who pay for sex as being probably a little broken, a little off, and a little disconnected, because in my experience that was always the case.
I've seriously considered hiring someone to scratch my itch dozens of times over the years, simply because I've had this fantasy idea that a person wouldn't expect pancakes and marriage in the morning if money changed hands. And that's all about broken-off-disconnected stuff. I don't blame you for judging. What's really stopped me is the same as His Mighty Kittenish Beard's point.
Were your friends students? Just asking because I attended a course last year or the one before where "sex worker rights" came up in a class focusing on trafficking. We know that when young, often white, or otherwise heavily monied people start holding forth on The Disempowered for grades or job opportunities, things get sad-weird.* In this case, the rights of people fucking for rent to have some measures of safety or say over their work conditions got turned into safely sheltered people accusing the rest of the room of thinking sex was bad. No shades of grey, no actual work conditions, much less "conditions of their labour" (marxism isn't safely radical enough yet/again :lulz: ).
* for example - I read too many resumes. This morning, under "relevant volunteer experience" (as opposed to irrelevant... I'd love to see that... please put it on your CV...) a young man listed his participation in "the day the world said no to war." I shit you not.
Prostitution pretty much cant be empowering in the world we live in.
Some of the stories of the women of the temple of Aphrodite and the like from way back do sound empowering but they weren't just selling their bodies, they were selling communion with their god which they could deny to any man they didn't like, and that's an incredible level of power, to be able to deny someone the worship of their god.
Its impossible to see that level of respect placed on it in the western world.
I used to see prostitution as a simple, black and white no-no...both for the sex worker AND for the john/jane soliciting. And then I watched shit shows like HBO's Cathouse and Real Sex, and I saw it's a bit different when the folks running it are attracting people who desire to be there. There are prostitutes working actively, right now, for rights to health care, rights to "come out of the closet" as sex workers, so that they are protected. They want to work in this industry, and they feel slighted by society's sense of morality in that they can't get equal representation in labor laws because what they do is by and large illegal still.
But then I've seen documentaries on the world behind porn, the sex industry vis a vis hookers on the street, strippers at clubs, etc. The world these women (and young men) are locked into is a dank, dark hellhole. Add to that the worldwide phenomenon of child slavery, the picture becomes even darker and akin to outright evil.
So my thoughts on "the oldest profession" have widened and deepend past the initial white-person's-religion-of-the-West knee jerk reaction. I still don't see going to hookers for sex as a healthy thing. I see watching porn and going to strip clubs as walking a bit on the wild side because you need an extra bit of titillation than you are getting otherwise. And perhaps it's always all lumped together because the people making this industry work tend to have to make the more morally degrading decisions and deal with the ugly underbelly of society because they're forced to in order to get it done.
I haven't lived in a culture where there isn't this pervasive guilt about sex and all things exploitative about it. So I don't know what that really looks or feels like. I know in America we're a many-headed hydra on the subject--our taboos almost outweigh our permissives. Which makes the permissives that much more boring.
In my mind's eye, I juxtapose the crack whores on the streets of Chicago with the bunny ranches in Nevada, and the child beauty pageant 3 year old toddlers and their screeching harridan mothers with the porn stars with their pasties and brazillians...and I have no answers.
I do know that I think Nigel is right. I don't want a partner who seeks sex from a prostitute, and neither do I think I ever would, either. I do not want my sons to do it, and I don't want them becoming prostitutes, either.
I want better. And I think I'm quite ok with thinking "other than THAT" is better.
Purely anecdotal, but I have been friends with one hooker. When I first knew her she was someone with a lot of issues, but she did honestly enjoy the job. She really enjoyed sex and didn't connect it with that emotional connection that is so important for so many people. She was young though (16) and I didn't see her again for a few years, when I did again, fairly briefly, 3 years later she looked unhealthy and seemed mentally disconnected. she hadn't been a heavy drug user when I first knew her, I don't know if she was or not when I saw her again but she certainly looked it. She didn't have much time to talk because she was with a client who decided it was time to go somewhere more private but it definitely seemed to me that the life had taken a hard toll on her.
She was definitely an economy class hooker, not an upscale escort, but more of the barfly sort than a streetwalker, although she solicited at all ages venues rather than bars.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 05:20:21 PM
Purely anecdotal, but I have been friends with one hooker. When I first knew her she was someone with a lot of issues, but she did honestly enjoy the job. She really enjoyed sex and didn't connect it with that emotional connection that is so important for so many people. She was young though (16) and I didn't see her again for a few years, when I did again, fairly briefly, 3 years later she looked unhealthy and seemed mentally disconnected. she hadn't been a heavy drug user when I first knew her, I don't know if she was or not when I saw her again but she certainly looked it. She didn't have much time to talk because she was with a client who decided it was time to go somewhere more private but it definitely seemed to me that the life had taken a hard toll on her.
She was definitely an economy class hooker, not an upscale escort, but more of the barfly sort than a streetwalker, although she solicited at all ages venues rather than bars.
What I said. The porn princess effect makes no exceptions.
Quote from: Faust on November 29, 2011, 09:16:39 AM
Prostitution pretty much cant be empowering in the world we live in.
Some of the stories of the women of the temple of Aphrodite and the like from way back do sound empowering but they weren't just selling their bodies, they were selling communion with their god which they could deny to any man they didn't like, and that's an incredible level of power, to be able to deny someone the worship of their god.
Its impossible to see that level of respect placed on it in the western world.
Funny how the dominant worldview changes things huh? A society of people with healthy, satisfying sex lives, or better yet blossoming relationships, can become difficult to manipulate.. Maybe that's why our current world order has spent so much effort (too often literally) demonizing sexuality. It's an ancient control game.
There's a repression in the western world that has seeped into the other parts. The repression of sex makes possible the mechanization of humanity. It is one of our strongest, wildest drives and some fools tried to harness it in clean and precise fashion. It just doesn't work that way. When that mistake was finally realized, the game became about leading us along by luring our desires. This still requires that satisfaction always seem to be just barely beyond reach, but ways to reach it constantly hinted at.
I think that the respect can still be gotten back sir. The temple just has to be adapted to the newfangled devices we use and packaged in a way that can compete with the market. I'm working on it.. or I'm gonna try something anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 05:20:21 PM
Purely anecdotal, but I have been friends with one hooker. When I first knew her she was someone with a lot of issues, but she did honestly enjoy the job. She really enjoyed sex and didn't connect it with that emotional connection that is so important for so many people. She was young though (16) and I didn't see her again for a few years, when I did again, fairly briefly, 3 years later she looked unhealthy and seemed mentally disconnected. she hadn't been a heavy drug user when I first knew her, I don't know if she was or not when I saw her again but she certainly looked it. She didn't have much time to talk because she was with a client who decided it was time to go somewhere more private but it definitely seemed to me that the life had taken a hard toll on her.
She was definitely an economy class hooker, not an upscale escort, but more of the barfly sort than a streetwalker, although she solicited at all ages venues rather than bars.
What I said. The porn princess effect makes no exceptions.
Babylon did it ever occur to you that this 16 year old child you call "friend" needed to be given better guidance and steered away from that "life path?" You're just a great fucking friend aren't you? Go your way, fuck off, and die.
_______________________________________________________________________
I think that Nigel, Jenne, and others have it right to judge men with a taste for prostitutes unworthy. It's an indicator of weakness, and it would seem to me that weakness is the last thing a stressed and busy person needs in a partner.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 29, 2011, 05:50:48 PM
Babylon did it ever occur to you that this 16 year old child you call "friend" needed to be given better guidance and steered away from that "life path?" You're just a great fucking friend aren't you? Go your way, fuck off, and die.
I was sort of thinking the same thing.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on November 29, 2011, 05:50:48 PM
Babylon did it ever occur to you that this 16 year old child you call "friend" needed to be given better guidance and steered away from that "life path?" You're just a great fucking friend aren't you? Go your way, fuck off, and die.
_______________________________________________________________________
I think that Nigel, Jenne, and others have it right to judge men with a taste for prostitutes unworthy. It's an indicator of weakness, and it would seem to me that weakness is the last thing a stressed and busy person needs in a partner.
I was in a worse space than her at that point. Drinking cough syrup regularly, suicidal, and about to be institutionalized. I wasn't really able to pull anyone out of anything. If I were to encounter someone in a similar situation now I'd try to offer useful mature guidance, at that point I had none to offer.
Also, as I said, she wasn't in that bad of a space when she was 16. She enjoyed her work and was generally doing pretty well. She was doing much worse 3 years later, and I was in a space where I might have had some useful guidance to offer, unfortunately I only saw her long enough for a "hi how have you been?" "It's complicated, I need to go fuck this person now" "oh, ok, well bye"
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:10:03 PM
I was in a worse space than her at that point.
No, you weren't.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:10:03 PM
I was in a worse space than her at that point.
No, you weren't.
Maybe not. Not having walked in her shoes I'm not qualified to judge. However she wasn't a heavy drug user and I was. She was hooking by choice and had a place to sleep, food to eat, and clean clothes to wear. I was squatting and eating at soup kitchens and wearing the same clothes for weeks at a time.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 05:20:21 PM
Purely anecdotal, but I have been friends with one hooker. When I first knew her she was someone with a lot of issues, but she did honestly enjoy the job. She really enjoyed sex and didn't connect it with that emotional connection that is so important for so many people. She was young though (16) and I didn't see her again for a few years, when I did again, fairly briefly, 3 years later she looked unhealthy and seemed mentally disconnected. she hadn't been a heavy drug user when I first knew her, I don't know if she was or not when I saw her again but she certainly looked it. She didn't have much time to talk because she was with a client who decided it was time to go somewhere more private but it definitely seemed to me that the life had taken a hard toll on her.
She was definitely an economy class hooker, not an upscale escort, but more of the barfly sort than a streetwalker, although she solicited at all ages venues rather than bars.
Prostitution, especially in those cases where a person has to do it to live, is rape. When the only option other than fucking some disgusting old man and being considered some kind of subhuman piece of garbage, is sleeping on pavement in the winter and starving, it's really no different than a knife to the throat.
As far her being mentally disconnected, http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/recovering-trauma/201012/trauma-and-dissociation
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:10:03 PM
I was in a worse space than her at that point.
No, you weren't.
Maybe not. Not having walked in her shoes I'm not qualified to judge. However she wasn't a heavy drug user and I was. She was hooking by choice and had a place to sleep, food to eat, and clean clothes to wear. I was squatting and eating at soup kitchens and wearing the same clothes for weeks at a time.
How many times did you suck dick for drugs?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:12:37 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:10:03 PM
I was in a worse space than her at that point.
No, you weren't.
Maybe not. Not having walked in her shoes I'm not qualified to judge. However she wasn't a heavy drug user and I was. She was hooking by choice and had a place to sleep, food to eat, and clean clothes to wear. I was squatting and eating at soup kitchens and wearing the same clothes for weeks at a time.
How many times did you suck dick for drugs?
I never did. I did once in a situation that involved having a place to sleep for a while, but it wasn't an explicit trade. I imagine she did, I never asked, but she didn't have to. She lived with her parents still and had enough spending money just from them to support what little drug use she did.
I'm fairly sure the main reason she hooked was because she enjoyed it, because she didn't charge much.
And I'm agreeing with Nigel on this because a)Guys who are actually desirable gnerally don't have to pay for sex. Once or twice when they're young to see what it's like, fine. More than that, forget it. b)Part of what a prostitute is paid to do is GO AWAY after. Doesn't say much for the relationship potential of the man. c)What kind of man picks up a runaway or a junkie and takes advantage of their desperate crappy position in order to get a cheap blowjob?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
I never did.
Then you weren't in a worse spot than her.
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
Not saying it's a good space to be in, but I do think it's better than being a homeless suicidal druggie.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PMI never did. I did once in a situation that involved having a place to sleep for a while, but it wasn't an explicit trade. I imagine she did, I never asked, but she didn't have to. She lived with her parents still and had enough spending money just from them to support what little drug use she did.
I'm fairly sure the main reason she hooked was because she enjoyed it, because she didn't charge much.
No 16 year old girl enjoys sucking off old perverts, you fucking moron.
There was something wrong at that house. Rape, abuse, something.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:21:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
I never did.
Then you weren't in a worse spot than her.
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
Not saying it's a good space to be in, but I do think it's better than being a homeless suicidal self-absorbed, emo druggie WHO THINKS TEENAGE GIRLS WHO HAVE TO SUCK DICK FOR MONEY HAVE IT BETTER THAN HE DOES.
FTFY
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 29, 2011, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:21:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
I never did.
Then you weren't in a worse spot than her.
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
Not saying it's a good space to be in, but I do think it's better than being a homeless suicidal self-absorbed, emo druggie WHO THINKS TEENAGE GIRLS WHO HAVE TO SUCK DICK FOR MONEY HAVE IT BETTER THAN HE DOES.
KIDS IN AFRICA DON'T HAVE IT AS BAD AS BABYLON DID. :cry:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 29, 2011, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:21:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
I never did.
Then you weren't in a worse spot than her.
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
Not saying it's a good space to be in, but I do think it's better than being a homeless suicidal self-absorbed, emo druggie WHO THINKS TEENAGE GIRLS WHO HAVE TO SUCK DICK FOR MONEY HAVE IT BETTER THAN HE DOES.
KIDS IN AFRICA DON'T HAVE IT AS BAD AS BABYLON DID. :cry:
MY HEART PUMPS PEANUT BUTTER FOR HIS PLIGHT
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 29, 2011, 07:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 29, 2011, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:21:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
I never did.
Then you weren't in a worse spot than her.
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
Not saying it's a good space to be in, but I do think it's better than being a homeless suicidal self-absorbed, emo druggie WHO THINKS TEENAGE GIRLS WHO HAVE TO SUCK DICK FOR MONEY HAVE IT BETTER THAN HE DOES.
KIDS IN AFRICA DON'T HAVE IT AS BAD AS BABYLON DID. :cry:
MY HEART PUMPS PEANUT BUTTER FOR HIS PLIGHT
MINE IS PUMPING PURPLE PISS FOR HIS TRAGIC LIFE, AT ABOUT 1000 GPM.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:21:45 PM
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
This is just as vomitmirthy as the snuff thing.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:30:36 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:21:45 PM
I think you are over-rating the awfulness of sucking dick in exchange for drugs and/or cash.
This is just as vomitmirthy as the snuff thing.
agreed!
:aaa:
If the awfulness is so overrated to him, he needs to consider it as a career option.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 29, 2011, 07:23:25 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PMI never did. I did once in a situation that involved having a place to sleep for a while, but it wasn't an explicit trade. I imagine she did, I never asked, but she didn't have to. She lived with her parents still and had enough spending money just from them to support what little drug use she did.
I'm fairly sure the main reason she hooked was because she enjoyed it, because she didn't charge much.
No 16 year old girl enjoys sucking off old perverts, you fucking moron.
There was something wrong at that house. Rape, abuse, something.
Probably true. Like I said, she definitely had issues.
re Roger, my point isn't that I had it so bad, it's that at that point I was in a worse spot than she was and wouldn't have been able to guide her to a better place. I know that African kids had it worse, from the sound of it your own experience in the military was far worse than my time on the streets.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on November 29, 2011, 07:32:31 PM
If the awfulness is so overrated to him, he needs to consider it as a career option.
If the other option is spanging and squatting I might. Compared to my current career (piercer at a tattoo shop) it sucks dick.
Not as bad as other possibilities is not the same as not bad at all.
KEEP DIGGING! YOU'LL BE OUT OF THAT HOLE IN NO TIME!
\
:nigel:
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 29, 2011, 03:07:23 AM
Nigel, I'm interested in your opinion of prostitution versus pornography, and if the latter can be "empowering".
Pornography is a tricky thing, because in many ways it's the same thing as prostitution... but I watch porn sometimes. I think that professional pornography is probably not a particularly empowering job, for all the same reasons that prostitution isn't. However, I think it COULD be empowering to make amateur porn.
The empowerment that sex workers of all kinds SHOULD have is the power to direct their lives and careers as they see fit. Being empowered
within the job is very different from being empowered
by the job, though.
Quote from: Hoser McRhizzy on November 29, 2011, 08:25:50 AM
Quote from: rong on November 29, 2011, 08:02:37 AM
it's a touchy subject
:argh!: :lol:
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 02:21:39 AM
Sex can be commodified. I don't think it's healthy to commodify sex, but it's certainly possible.
I think that some of the reaction I got was that people assumed I was placing a moral value on prostitution. One person asked me if I would think less of someone who hired a gigolo. People thought I was passing judgement.
I am. I am judging people who pay for sex as unfit to be my partner. As a former sex worker, and a woman who has had relationships with men who have paid for sex, I am also judging people who pay for sex as being probably a little broken, a little off, and a little disconnected, because in my experience that was always the case.
I've seriously considered hiring someone to scratch my itch dozens of times over the years, simply because I've had this fantasy idea that a person wouldn't expect pancakes and marriage in the morning if money changed hands. And that's all about broken-off-disconnected stuff. I don't blame you for judging. What's really stopped me is the same as His Mighty Kittenish Beard's point.
Were your friends students? Just asking because I attended a course last year or the one before where "sex worker rights" came up in a class focusing on trafficking. We know that when young, often white, or otherwise heavily monied people start holding forth on The Disempowered for grades or job opportunities, things get sad-weird.* In this case, the rights of people fucking for rent to have some measures of safety or say over their work conditions got turned into safely sheltered people accusing the rest of the room of thinking sex was bad. No shades of grey, no actual work conditions, much less "conditions of their labour" (marxism isn't safely radical enough yet/again :lulz: ).
* for example - I read too many resumes. This morning, under "relevant volunteer experience" (as opposed to irrelevant... I'd love to see that... please put it on your CV...) a young man listed his participation in "the day the world said no to war." I shit you not.
Nah, they're all mid-30's to early-40's educated professionals.
I thought it was an interesting reaction simply because I was saying that *I* wanted a partner who had never been with a prostitute, (and given my personal history, it seems like it would be psychologically healthier for me to have such a partner) and wasn't anticipating anyone challenging my reasons for that, let alone my women friends.
Quote from: Faust on November 29, 2011, 09:16:39 AM
Prostitution pretty much cant be empowering in the world we live in.
Some of the stories of the women of the temple of Aphrodite and the like from way back do sound empowering but they weren't just selling their bodies, they were selling communion with their god which they could deny to any man they didn't like, and that's an incredible level of power, to be able to deny someone the worship of their god.
Its impossible to see that level of respect placed on it in the western world.
I agree completely.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 07:12:37 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2011, 06:11:01 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on November 29, 2011, 06:10:03 PM
I was in a worse space than her at that point.
No, you weren't.
Maybe not. Not having walked in her shoes I'm not qualified to judge. However she wasn't a heavy drug user and I was. She was hooking by choice and had a place to sleep, food to eat, and clean clothes to wear. I was squatting and eating at soup kitchens and wearing the same clothes for weeks at a time.
How many times did you suck dick for drugs?
I never did. I did once in a situation that involved having a place to sleep for a while, but it wasn't an explicit trade. I imagine she did, I never asked, but she didn't have to. She lived with her parents still and had enough spending money just from them to support what little drug use she did.
I'm fairly sure the main reason she hooked was because she enjoyed it, because she didn't charge much.
LOL, no. I would bet my house that the reason she hooked and the reason she dissociated sex from bonding is because she was molested. She didn't hook because she "enjoyed it", she "enjoyed it" because someone fucked her head up. 16-year-old girls just don't willingly start prostituting themselves for fun unless there is something very very wrong at home.
Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2011, 10:03:47 PM
So, yesterday I made an offhand comment to some friends that I would really like my next boyfriend to be someone who has never visited a prostitute, but that I didn't know if that's an unreasonable hope. I observed that of all the men I've been in relationships with, all but one share the curious commonality of having told me they have been with prostitutes, usually while traveling abroad, with frequency ranging from a one-time experiment to a semi-regular habit.
Space Cowboy, who is easily the awesomest person I have ever been in a relationship with, is the only one who has never paid for sex.
Curiously, my male friends, for the most part, reacted as if I had said the most reasonable thing in the world, and several commented that they didn't even know anyone who had been to a prostitute. Two of my female friends, however, challenged my reasoning, so I said that while I don't think prostitution is wrong, I think that there is a lot wrong with prostitution, and that other than, say, a youthful one-time visit out of curiosity, I don't think paying women for sex as a commodity is consistent with a feminist worldview or with my expectations of a partner.
SHIT STORM. They are acting like I am being TOTALLY unreasonable, discriminatory, and (bizarrely enough) anti-feminist.
What sayeth the peedee on this matter?
Women not getting paid for sex is clearly anti-feminist. Why are you trying to deny the worth of a woman based on her sexual skill and no other factor, Nigel? Why do you hate women?
Quote from: Cain on November 29, 2011, 10:10:02 PM
Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2011, 10:03:47 PM
So, yesterday I made an offhand comment to some friends that I would really like my next boyfriend to be someone who has never visited a prostitute, but that I didn't know if that's an unreasonable hope. I observed that of all the men I've been in relationships with, all but one share the curious commonality of having told me they have been with prostitutes, usually while traveling abroad, with frequency ranging from a one-time experiment to a semi-regular habit.
Space Cowboy, who is easily the awesomest person I have ever been in a relationship with, is the only one who has never paid for sex.
Curiously, my male friends, for the most part, reacted as if I had said the most reasonable thing in the world, and several commented that they didn't even know anyone who had been to a prostitute. Two of my female friends, however, challenged my reasoning, so I said that while I don't think prostitution is wrong, I think that there is a lot wrong with prostitution, and that other than, say, a youthful one-time visit out of curiosity, I don't think paying women for sex as a commodity is consistent with a feminist worldview or with my expectations of a partner.
SHIT STORM. They are acting like I am being TOTALLY unreasonable, discriminatory, and (bizarrely enough) anti-feminist.
What sayeth the peedee on this matter?
Women not getting paid for sex is clearly anti-feminist. Why are you trying to deny the worth of a woman based on her sexual skill and no other factor, Nigel? Why do you hate women?
:lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 09:40:41 PM
Being empowered within the job is very different from being empowered by the job, though.
I think that says everything I wanted to say.
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 09:40:41 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on November 29, 2011, 03:07:23 AM
Nigel, I'm interested in your opinion of prostitution versus pornography, and if the latter can be "empowering".
Pornography is a tricky thing, because in many ways it's the same thing as prostitution... but I watch porn sometimes. I think that professional pornography is probably not a particularly empowering job, for all the same reasons that prostitution isn't. However, I think it COULD be empowering to make amateur porn.
The empowerment that sex workers of all kinds SHOULD have is the power to direct their lives and careers as they see fit. Being empowered within the job is very different from being empowered by the job, though.
Interesting.
Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 09:47:04 PM
Quote from: Hoser McRhizzy on November 29, 2011, 08:25:50 AM
Were your friends students? Just asking because I attended a course last year or the one before where "sex worker rights" came up in a class focusing on trafficking. We know that when young, often white, or otherwise heavily monied people start holding forth on The Disempowered for grades or job opportunities, things get sad-weird.* In this case, the rights of people fucking for rent to have some measures of safety or say over their work conditions got turned into safely sheltered people accusing the rest of the room of thinking sex was bad. No shades of grey, no actual work conditions, much less "conditions of their labour" (marxism isn't safely radical enough yet/again :lulz: ).
* for example - I read too many resumes. This morning, under "relevant volunteer experience" (as opposed to irrelevant... I'd love to see that... please put it on your CV...) a young man listed his participation in "the day the world said no to war." I shit you not.
Nah, they're all mid-30's to early-40's educated professionals.
I thought it was an interesting reaction simply because I was saying that *I* wanted a partner who had never been with a prostitute, (and given my personal history, it seems like it would be psychologically healthier for me to have such a partner) and wasn't anticipating anyone challenging my reasons for that, let alone my women friends.
Because expressing personal preference and speaking from experience are anti-feminist now. Or something like that. I stopped getting the official newsletter awhile back, so I can't say with any particular authority. :lol:
I'm sorry your friends felt the need to be douchebags to you.
You guys ROCK. I was all WTF, and then I posted this here and y'all were all "YEAH NO" and I feel better. :)
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
And of course the large numbers of protstitutes who are trafficked into foreign countries has nothing at all to do with the topic in hand, right?
Christ, this is like having Requia back.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
The two are synonymous in Europe and America.
Quote from: Faust on December 01, 2011, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
The two are synonymous in Europe and America.
A good chunk in Asia--and you can throw child sex slavery in there while you're at it.
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 01:18:44 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
And of course the large numbers of protstitutes who are trafficked into foreign countries has nothing at all to do with the topic in hand, right?
Christ, this is like having Requia back.
I won't harp on, but yeah of course it's related. But the question was is prostitution empowering, and what you've described isn't specifically prostitution. You could argue that prostitution is empowering (I'm not enclined to agree) but nobody in their right mind would argue that being trafficked is empowering.
I'll step out of this line of discussion though before it collapses into semantics because I think we both understand where eachother are coming from.
Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 01:47:04 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 01, 2011, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
The two are synonymous in Europe and America.
A good chunk in Asia--and you can throw child sex slavery in there while you're at it.
At least as far as Australia is in this conversation the two are not synonymous. There's relation and overlap and issues regarding both, but prostitution is not trafficking.
I know a lot of prostitution comes from trafficking, I just thought since the conversation was centered around prostitution, it would make more sense for that to be the point of discussion.
I think there's a distinction that needs to be made, and this can be because of where we all live, grew up and our experiences in these things.
There's prostitution, which includes the sex trade, the illegal side that makes most practices that go along with it something that degrades all involved and is meant to, and there's sex for sale.
Now, there's a reason why there's a difference in what is meant by an escort vs. a hooker. I think, Placid Dingo, you're trying to say that "prostitution" as you see it is more of a "sex for sale" practice, and slavery, child endangerment, kidnapping, etc. are a separate part of that whole sex TRADING business.
I think unfortunately, as many have pointed out, it's sort of a fantasy to think that they're truly inseparable, and that there isn't something fundamentally broken about someone who sells their body as an instrument for sex for a living. Broken down into its essentials, it seems to yield that comparison rather more often than not, witihout the other variables of evil listed above.
I checked wiki just to make sure I wasn't fucking up my definition. This is what it said, which is where I stand on it.
Prostitution is the act or practice of providing sexual services to another person in return for payment. (in the case of this thread, when referring to prostitution though, I have more specifically been referring to people paying/being paid for sex).
This is possibly me being pedantic because of where I live, but the scenario Cain discusses is a reality in some cases of prostitution, but in australia at least is not the norm, so far as I'm aware. Cases like the one you described Jenne with someone 'a bit broken' are possibly more common but there are certainly some people who are involved in prostitution who are reasonably well ballenced.
Of course there's overlap in the legal/illegal sex industry. Many women trafficked into Australia are coerced into working in legal brothels. However, in discussing the idea of prostitution in general, I don't tend to assume this is standard for most women who end up as prostitutes.
I guess as I said, our own experiences and opinions are going to vary on this to a large degree. But you can't have one side of this issue, I believe, without the other. To dismiss it as wholly unplausible and not the main of the whole theme is beyond disingenuous. I believe, Placid Dingo, your more benign view of those who work as prostitutes and those who use them seems to be rather more or less...in the minority? for lack of a better word. And I understand the need to not villify the john nor codify a prostitute as dirty, rotten people...but in the main, there's nothing to be upheld about either state. (eta: because society tries hard to perpetuate this theme, not as strongly on the side of the john, mind you, more towards the women walking the streets)
Because the so-called freedom to sell yourself in the end is more of a jail, and the so-called freedom to buy someone for a while makes you their jailor.
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act. why not the same with prostitution?
i'd rather not inject myself as taking a side in this issue, because i have no dog in the fight. my curiosity was just piqued by the apparent disconnect...
Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 02:34:38 PM
I guess as I said, our own experiences and opinions are going to vary on this to a large degree. But you can't have one side of this issue, I believe, without the other. To dismiss it as wholly unplausible and not the main of the whole theme is beyond disingenuous. I believe, Placid Dingo, your more benign view of those who work as prostitutes and those who use them seems to be rather more or less...in the minority? for lack of a better word. And I understand the need to not villify the john nor codify a prostitute as dirty, rotten people...but in the main, there's nothing to be upheld about either state. (eta: because society tries hard to perpetuate this theme, not as strongly on the side of the john, mind you, more towards the women walking the streets)
Because the so-called freedom to sell yourself in the end is more of a jail, and the so-called freedom to buy someone for a while makes you their jailor.
I guess the simplist I can put it is that I do not believe that if you're talking about prostitution you may as well be discussing human trafficking. I think the two things are so different that what we say about one does not by default relate to the other.
I have views on both, and they differ wildly. I do acknowledge the overlap, but still feel that we should have codes and operations in place to ensure legal prostitution does not support human trafficking, rather than treating them as one and the same.
Not meaning to be a smart arse, but I'm not sure what you're saying I'm calling implausible.
Also, by my benign views, do you mean my view that (afaik) Cain's scenario is, at least in my country, atypical of prostitution in general? Or do you feel I'm being generally supportive of prostitution?
:x
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 02:41:40 PM
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act. why not the same with prostitution?
i'd rather not inject myself as taking a side in this issue, because i have no dog in the fight. my curiosity was just piqued by the apparent disconnect...
Ippy, I started a thread in AE on legal prostitution; I'm interested in pursuing this line of discussion but don't want to be smacked for a threadjack, so maybe bring it up there?
verily.
sry.
it was more a comment on discussing prostitution free of the baggage of trafficking etc. which may be seen as splitting semantic hairs, but which, i agree with you, should be separated, since the topic was brought up in what i thought were more philosophically general terms...
...comma abuse. :oops:
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:06:17 PM
verily.
sry.
it was more a comment on discussing prostitution free of the baggage of trafficking etc. which may be seen as splitting semantic hairs, but which, i agree with you, should be separated, since the topic was brought up in what i thought were more philosophically general terms...
...comma abuse. :oops:
No, ok, got you now, and agree.
I'm posting tired. Will get to sleep and rejoin convo in morning.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 02:57:19 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 02:34:38 PM
I guess as I said, our own experiences and opinions are going to vary on this to a large degree. But you can't have one side of this issue, I believe, without the other. To dismiss it as wholly unplausible and not the main of the whole theme is beyond disingenuous. I believe, Placid Dingo, your more benign view of those who work as prostitutes and those who use them seems to be rather more or less...in the minority? for lack of a better word. And I understand the need to not villify the john nor codify a prostitute as dirty, rotten people...but in the main, there's nothing to be upheld about either state. (eta: because society tries hard to perpetuate this theme, not as strongly on the side of the john, mind you, more towards the women walking the streets)
Because the so-called freedom to sell yourself in the end is more of a jail, and the so-called freedom to buy someone for a while makes you their jailor.
I guess the simplist I can put it is that I do not believe that if you're talking about prostitution you may as well be discussing human trafficking. I think the two things are so different that what we say about one does not by default relate to the other.
I have views on both, and they differ wildly. I do acknowledge the overlap, but still feel that we should have codes and operations in place to ensure legal prostitution does not support human trafficking, rather than treating them as one and the same.
Not meaning to be a smart arse, but I'm not sure what you're saying I'm calling implausible.
Also, by my benign views, do you mean my view that (afaik) Cain's scenario is, at least in my country, atypical of prostitution in general? Or do you feel I'm being generally supportive of prostitution?
I think your ability to separate what keeps the generation of selling sex as an occupation and those who use it from the evils that come along with it is not a majority view and may minimize the dangers people put themselves in while pursuing this act in either buying or selling.
I agree with those who are saying you cannot separate the bad from the so-called good here, given that the good isn't even ALL THAT GOOD. And may not really even exist except in the minds of those who believe it's all a-ok.
Again, without villainizing either party outright, I just think it's turning a blind eye to remove one side inherently from the other. Feminism, humanism, everything aside--the collateral damage of this practice in the world as it exists today just includes too much brutality and malice to be ignored. And this is even in the most benign of circumstances where it's used.
The sex industry seems to fuck everybody up, period. I've known women who only danced in tittie flops, didn't prostitute, and they were fucked up, never had their own place to stay, chronic drug use...look at Anna Nichole Smith, didn't she start at Rick's Cabaret in Houston? That's the "high class" place, not some sleaze joint...she did Playboy, all top-of-the-line stuff and SHE was even fucked up.
I had a neighbor once who was a former escort. She was on crack.
Nobody can force themselves to do any of this shit and not expect to be damaged by it somehow.
Paradoxically, I'd legalize everything, just to make it safer for these women. But it sucks.
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing? :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing? :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)
Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg. Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do. Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.
Seriously.
When it comes to stripping, I think that if you're not an exhibitionist, who REALLy enjoys showing off, that line of work will eventually destroy you.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 01, 2011, 03:28:03 PM
The sex industry seems to fuck everybody up, period. I've known women who only danced in tittie flops, didn't prostitute, and they were fucked up, never had their own place to stay, chronic drug use...look at Anna Nichole Smith, didn't she start at Rick's Cabaret in Houston? That's the "high class" place, not some sleaze joint...she did Playboy, all top-of-the-line stuff and SHE was even fucked up.
I had a neighbor once who was a former escort. She was on crack.
Nobody can force themselves to do any of this shit and not expect to be damaged by it somehow.
Paradoxically, I'd legalize everything, just to make it safer for these women. But it sucks.
Stella, I am on board with your views here, I think--esp the legalization. All of my experience and those I've read about, seen, heard, etc., viewed in documentaries very much hold out according to what you've personally seen as well.
I know of few instances where this shit wasn't fucked up six ways to Sunday. Now that *could* be just anecdotal fodder...but I'm thinking, no.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing? :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)
Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg. Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do. Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.
Seriously.
Fictional Hollywood Scenario--HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing? :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)
I'm sure she wouldn't have felt the need to gobble pills like fucking M&M's if her life had taken a different trajectory.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing? :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)
Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg. Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do. Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.
Seriously.
eh...
I'm just bantering. (annoyingly, i guess.)
it is obvious based on even a cursory examination that prostitution and decline into wretchedness are tightly correlated. speculating whether this is an inherent and inextricable link is just prattle that perhaps isn't worth a damn...
:shrug:
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 04:04:32 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 03:45:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 03:43:33 PM
i would assume the arrow of causality largely points the other direction, no?
surely, Ms. Smith wouldn't have become a nobel laureate if it weren't for the pole dancing? :)
(not arguing that the sex trade wouldn't act as a catalyst for their destruction, though)
Never mind, dude, we're only pulling your leg. Everyone knows prostitutes always have a heart of gold, and they love what they do. Then they all retire to be madams, and the process continues.
Seriously.
eh...
I'm just bantering. (annoyingly, i guess.)
it is obvious based on even a cursory examination that prostitution and decline into wretchedness are tightly correlated. speculating whether this is an inherent and inextricable link is just prattle that perhaps isn't worth a damn...
:shrug:
Numbers. Porn, for instance, you have Traci Lords, and OTOH you have all these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLCijCgh_0g
As long as we live in a society where it's possible to make money by selling other people's bodies, prostitution and human coercion and trafficking will be intertwined. Dingo, you are delusional if you think that human trafficking for prostitution is not an issue in Australia... what rock have you been under? Wasn't that just part of a recent discussion? http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/australia
Legalization is the only reasonable way to minimize/reduce trafficking, but it won't solve the problem, especially with regards to child trafficking.
This thread, of course, is not about that, but about whether a man who visits prostitutes has a mentality that is compatible with feminism... however, it's served its purpose, so derail away.
i guess it depends on the specific definition of feminism being used?
prostitution is inherently a gender based inequality in a sense, so if absolute equality is required for the feminism at hand, it seems to me that the answer would be no.
Um...there are MANY male prostitutes out there. Maybe just as many as female.
But like the rape thread, in our society, we don't talk about male prostitution as if it's a so-called hard fact of life, like we don't talk about male rape.
You should visit my husband's peds office a bit, Ippie. You'd see some stuff that would uncurl your hair. Boys who start out at 14 prostituting themselves to the little old people (most of whom are vets) in mobile home parks.
The world is a seamier place than we like to admit.
oh, i agree.
that's why i earlier asked if male prostitutes were seen as being 'empowered'.
(i don't believe this to be so...)
but the exchange, regardless of the arrangement (unless its homosexual prostitution, i guess), represents an inequality, as i see it, no?
It's inequality, but it's much more than that. I have to admit I haven't studied or seen as much on male prostitutes that aren't trannies so I can't speak to that exactly as I could with the documentaries I've seen on street walkers and bunny ranchers. Unfortunately a large part of what I do know comes from my husband's experiences in his pediatrics practice, along with news stories and what my dad told me about folks when he got out of the clink.
There's still a huge morass of stories I'm waiting to hear about from my dad. He tries to not tell us about being "on the inside" but it bubbles up and boils over sometimes so that he can't help himself.
The only person I know in my own life that has been with a prostitute that's admitted it to me besides my husband's estranged best friend is my youngest brother. And he was too drunk to even get a hand job by the gal. :| It was a bad night all around. A humiliating experience such that he'll likely never repeat it.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 05:27:58 PM
i guess it depends on the specific definition of feminism being used?
prostitution is inherently a gender based inequality in a sense, so if absolute equality is required for the feminism at hand, it seems to me that the answer would be no.
I'm not big on the whole "let's make up our own definition for this word" thing, so let's just use the definition of feminism that's already in circulation, shall we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 05:56:57 PM
oh, i agree.
that's why i earlier asked if male prostitutes were seen as being 'empowered'.
(i don't believe this to be so...)
but the exchange, regardless of the arrangement (unless its homosexual prostitution, i guess), represents an inequality, as i see it, no?
Male prostitutes I have known were definitely not empowered. And while the power imbalance is not necessarily gender-based in that circumstance, there is still a power imbalance which seems incompatible, IMO, with the ideal of equality.
agreed.
also, I'm happy to use whatever definition you use, but if we are going to refer to an authoritative source, the wiki link gives the impression that 'feminism' is a broad term that is tricky to nail down, as i read it. otherwise, why the debate on issues such as this?
QuoteFeminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.
If defining what is required is part of the movement, what answer to your question can be expected beyond 'maybe'?
i know that semantics is a bugbear on this board, and i don't want to raise the ire of any, least of all the Dark Empress, so i'll defer to you on any point of language. :)
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.
I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
Then I guess the fact that the majority of prostitutes here hardly speak a word Dutch, is probably just because it is illegal in their country of origin and they came here to fulfil their lifelong dream of becoming a warm-blooded showroom dummy in a red light district?
I don't know if it's different in Australia, but as others said, it's almost synonymous here. Even though there's a union for prostitutes now, and they got all sorts of worker's rights like a normal job, etc. But I guess that's not much use if you're in a trafficking-ish environment. I don't quite believe they're all "trafficked" in the worst meaning of the word, cause since it's legal here it means government and police do keep an eye on what's going on in the red light district of any medium-sized city. But there's just something very fishy about the whole thing, otherwise there'd be just as much Dutch girls, no?
BTW that, and many other reasons named ITT thread so far is why I have never been to a prostitute. One reason I haven't heard, probably because it's personal, is that even if all the other things were the same, the idea that's she's been with so many men and I'm just one of them is unappealing to me. The distinguishing factor is "on the same day/night as me" BTW (because of course I don't expect a woman my age to be a virgin, or anything). But then, there's situations in which that might not be a problem (being with a woman that had sex with other men that day) without a prostitute being involved, so I guess I'm just saying I like sex to be something special to both persons involved.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 01, 2011, 03:28:03 PM
Paradoxically, I'd legalize everything, just to make it safer for these women. But it sucks.
Even though it doesn't seem exactly a pleasant job here, I do believe it gets better/safer for these women when it's legalized.
I also believe that it's not really a thing you can get completely rid of, due to human nature being what it is.
It's funny BTW, the Netherlands is famous for both prostitution being legal and pot being (mostly) legal. Most people I know have tried pot at least once, but I don't believe (though it doesn't really come up in conversation) that many people (among my friends and acquaintances) have been to a prostitute. Interesting thought. I shall raise it as a point of discussion some time :)
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 02:41:40 PM
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act. why not the same with prostitution?
As I said, legalization doesn't really solve this problem. It does probably help somewhat, and I also think it's a necessary step in the right direction towards solving it (if solveable).
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.
Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.
However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.
Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?
I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).
Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.
Pointless anecdote time: So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine? One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on. This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"
"Yes!" she cried, emphatically. "And it's fucking sexist. Where does he get off? What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night? Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"
"He is paying her to stay off the streets. Maybe she likes the streets. Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient. His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."
"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"
"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."
I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing. It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid. Or, so I like to imagine.
Carry on!
Quote from: Hoopla on December 01, 2011, 08:46:05 PM
Pointless anecdote time: So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine? One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on. This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"
"Yes!" she cried, emphatically. "And it's fucking sexist. Where does he get off? What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night? Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"
"He is paying her to stay off the streets. Maybe she likes the streets. Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient. His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."
"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"
"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."
I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing. It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid. Or, so I like to imagine.
Carry on!
How the fuck can you stand that shit? This is why I don't hang out with many people IRL.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 01, 2011, 08:46:05 PM
Pointless anecdote time: So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine? One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on. This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"
"Yes!" she cried, emphatically. "And it's fucking sexist. Where does he get off? What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night? Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"
"He is paying her to stay off the streets. Maybe she likes the streets. Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient. His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."
"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"
"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."
I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing. It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid. Or, so I like to imagine.
Carry on!
How the fuck can you stand that shit? This is why I don't hang out with many people IRL.
This conversation took place close to ten years ago. I've bittered considerably since then.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 01, 2011, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on December 01, 2011, 08:46:05 PM
Pointless anecdote time: So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine? One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on. This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"
"Yes!" she cried, emphatically. "And it's fucking sexist. Where does he get off? What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night? Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"
"He is paying her to stay off the streets. Maybe she likes the streets. Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient. His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."
"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"
"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."
I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing. It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid. Or, so I like to imagine.
Carry on!
How the fuck can you stand that shit? This is why I don't hang out with many people IRL.
I enjoy me a good idiot. I'm curious about people's tortured logic so I often keep talking with them until I can't keep a straight face any more. You have to understand that once people say something stupid like that, there are often dense pockets of lulz to mine in their supporting reasoning.
I would have had a field day with that woman.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 01, 2011, 08:46:05 PM
Pointless anecdote time: So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine? One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on. This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"
"Yes!" she cried, emphatically. "And it's fucking sexist. Where does he get off? What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night? Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"
"He is paying her to stay off the streets. Maybe she likes the streets. Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient. His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."
"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"
"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."
I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing. It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid. Or, so I like to imagine.
Carry on!
Holy fuck. That's like Marlo Thomas on meth. :horrormirth:
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 04:17:46 AM
Holy fuck. That's like Marlo Thomas on meth. :horrormirth:
Free To Be... You And MeOhMyGodICan'tStopItchingThereAreBugsEverywhereGetThemOffGETTHEMOFFOShitOShitOShit
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 02, 2011, 01:57:04 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 04:17:46 AM
Holy fuck. That's like Marlo Thomas on meth. :horrormirth:
Free To Be... You And MeOhMyGodICan'tStopItchingThereAreBugsEverywhereGetThemOffGETTHEMOFFOShitOShitOShit
:potd:
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 08:12:08 PM
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.
Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.
However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.
Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?
I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).
Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.
I'm saying, you can't talk about prostitution WITHOUT that factor that it's a shitty practice in general because of all that "most heinous" you refer to but want to ignore so you can focus on "the variety of scenarios."
Thing is, no one is bringing up what the "variety of scenarios" that AREN'T fucked up would be...so perhaps provide us with a few so we can compare?
Quote from: Hoopla on December 01, 2011, 08:46:05 PM
Pointless anecdote time: So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine? One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on. This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"
"Yes!" she cried, emphatically. "And it's fucking sexist. Where does he get off? What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"
"Wait wait," said I. "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night? Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"
"He is paying her to stay off the streets. Maybe she likes the streets. Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient. His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."
"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"
"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."
I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing. It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid. Or, so I like to imagine.
Carry on!
Ah, that's the kind of pseudointellectualism I DON'T miss from hanging out in these vapid mommy circles I got caught up in in my late 20's/early 30's. I'm so glad I said BUH BYE to those bitches, because SRSLY, this is the type of shit that got flung at my head with religiosity.
BTW Placid Dingo, I didn't wrote that in a snarky way to get at you, it was just a great opportunity for a snarky remark :) FYI.
Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 08:12:08 PM
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.
Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.
However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.
Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?
I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).
Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.
I'm saying, you can't talk about prostitution WITHOUT that factor that it's a shitty practice in general because of all that "most heinous" you refer to but want to ignore so you can focus on "the variety of scenarios."
Thing is, no one is bringing up what the "variety of scenarios" that AREN'T fucked up would be...so perhaps provide us with a few so we can compare?
I dont want to try to make a point of saying it isn't fucked up. that's not my position.
I do think that it's worth talking about the trafficking scenario, but that it's not the whole of prostitution.
What are the other scenarios?
Any scenario where a person chooses to sell themselves for money. Now I know choice is a hell of a word in this context, but all I mean is that the person is not compelled by the will of someone else.
This could include scenarios as mundane as thinking it will be easy and looking for an easy way to make money by working in a legal brothel.
It could include scenarios as damaging as people who are struggling to survive while nursing a meth addiction.
So I can agree that you can't gloss over the negatives, but I still think if you're talking in general terms about prostitution, that you can't just choose one scenario and act as though it typifies all instances. If the OP question was referring to men who visit trafficking victims my response would have been different.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 02, 2011, 05:10:15 PM
BTW Placid Dingo, I didn't wrote that in a snarky way to get at you, it was just a great opportunity for a snarky remark :) FYI.
No problem, I tend to try to take things in good faith.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 05, 2011, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 08:12:08 PM
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.
Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.
However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.
Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?
I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).
Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.
I'm saying, you can't talk about prostitution WITHOUT that factor that it's a shitty practice in general because of all that "most heinous" you refer to but want to ignore so you can focus on "the variety of scenarios."
Thing is, no one is bringing up what the "variety of scenarios" that AREN'T fucked up would be...so perhaps provide us with a few so we can compare?
I dont want to try to make a point of saying it isn't fucked up. that's not my position.
I do think that it's worth talking about the trafficking scenario, but that it's not the whole of prostitution.
What are the other scenarios?
Any scenario where a person chooses to sell themselves for money. Now I know choice is a hell of a word in this context, but all I mean is that the person is not compelled by the will of someone else.
This could include scenarios as mundane as thinking it will be easy and looking for an easy way to make money by working in a legal brothel.
It could include scenarios as damaging as people who are struggling to survive while nursing a meth addiction.
So I can agree that you can't gloss over the negatives, but I still think if you're talking in general terms about prostitution, that you can't just choose one scenario and act as though it typifies all instances. If the OP question was referring to men who visit trafficking victims my response would have been different.
Pretty much the only scenario I can think of in which a person would be "empowered" by prostitution is if that was their kink, and it actually turned them on and they got off on it. I don't think it would really alter my opinion of the people paying for sex, though.
Most prostitutes don't become aroused when they have sex with their clients, though.
I will be watching this documentary in two days with some friends.
http://youtu.be/z9eqXtCxm_g
QuoteOuwehoeren is about two twin sisters, Martine and Louise Fokkens, in their late sixties. Both have been working as prostitutes in Amsterdam, and one of them still does! Ouwehoeren shows their way of life and the life behind the red curtains.
I will return with a more informed point of view.
Something to add, here: I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.
He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally. He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 03:55:41 PM
Something to add, here: I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.
He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally. He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.
:lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 03:55:41 PM
Something to add, here: I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.
He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally. He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.
:lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.
Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car: A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.
It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that. It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 04:25:15 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 03:55:41 PM
Something to add, here: I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.
He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally. He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.
:lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.
Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car: A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.
It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that. It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.
That right there is enough justification for legalizing prostitution.
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2012, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 04:25:15 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 03:55:41 PM
Something to add, here: I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.
He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally. He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.
:lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.
Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car: A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.
It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that. It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.
That right there is enough justification for legalizing prostitution.
To cater to sociopaths?
I consider him an argument against it. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 07:13:34 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2012, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 04:25:15 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 16, 2012, 03:55:41 PM
Something to add, here: I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.
He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally. He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.
:lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.
Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car: A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.
It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that. It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.
That right there is enough justification for legalizing prostitution.
To cater to sociopaths?
I consider him an argument against it. :lulz:
Well, consider the alternative, which is what happens when sociopaths want sex and there are no prostitutes.
I was talking about this on FB the other day (and by "talking" I mean trying to educate some retards that happen to be friends with some of my friends). the one thing we all pretty much agreed on was that prostitution should be legalized and regulated.
And then I found this: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000022.html
And now I'm not so sure about that.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on January 17, 2012, 07:53:28 AM
I was talking about this on FB the other day (and by "talking" I mean trying to educate some retards that happen to be friends with some of my friends). the one thing we all pretty much agreed on was that prostitution should be legalized and regulated.
And then I found this: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000022.html
And now I'm not so sure about that.
That creates a lot to think about; primarily whether legalization and the accomponying protections increase or decrease illegal and exploitative practises.
I'm suspicious of that whole article for a lot of reasons. They make lots of argument they don't really back up.
Reading through there's some good points but I don't feel as a whole that illegalising prostitution is the answer to any of these.
Point one basically says 'prostitution is bad because is'.
Point two (legal prostitution encourages trafficking) could have some teeth, but I haven't looked at their sources. That said, I agree that governments generally are doing a piss weak job of combating trafficking.
Point three is that a legal sex industry is a bigger sex industry. And um, that's bad. Because it is.
Point four is that legal prostitution makes illegal prostitution more popular. They make a lot of logical sounding arguments which they don't back up, and I haven't decked their first source but it feels a bit shifty.
However, this is followed by this quote which does seem to depict a very legitimate concern.
QuoteThe argument that legalization was supposed to take the criminal elements out of sex businesses by strict regulation of the industry has failed. The real growth in prostitution in Australia since legalization took effect has been in the illegal sector. Since the onset of legalization in Victoria, brothels have tripled in number and expanded in size; the vast majority having no licenses but advertising and operating with impunity (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001). In New South Wales, brothels were decriminalized in 1995. In 1999, the numbers of brothels in Sydney had increased exponentially to 400-500. The vast majority have no license to operate. To end endemic police corruption, control of illegal prostitution was taken out of the hands of the police and placed in the hands of local councils and planning regulators. The council has neither the money nor the personnel to put investigators into brothels to flush out and prosecute illegal operators.
Point five seems the most solid and best sourced and also the most concerning; legal prostitution increases child prostitution.
QuoteAnother argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that it would help end child prostitution. In reality, however, child prostitution in the Netherlands has increased dramatically during the 1990s. The Amsterdam-based ChildRight organization estimates that the number has gone from 4,000 children in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001. The group estimates that at least 5,000 of the children in prostitution are from other countries, with a large segment being Nigerian girls (Tiggeloven: 2001).
Child prostitution has dramatically risen in Victoria compared to other Australian states where prostitution has not been legalized. Of all the states and territories in Australia, the highest number of reported incidences of child prostitution came from Victoria. In a 1998 study undertaken by ECPAT (End Child Prostitution and Trafficking) who conducted research for the Australian National Inquiry on Child Prostitution, there was increased evidence of organized commercial exploitation of children.
I'm not convinced we're looking at causation here but it is a worrying scenario, and one I'd like to look into further. I am however, a little sceptical that anything like a meaningful causative relationship will be seen.
Point six is that regulation does not protect the women; I'm Suss onthis part, partially because most of their evidence comes from their own research, and they seem to have a fairly specific agenda. Also we say here...
QuoteThe violence that women were subjected to was an intrinsic part of the prostitution and sexual exploitation. Pimps used violence for many different reasons and purposes. Violence was used to initiate some women into prostitution and to break them down so that they would do the sexual acts. After initiation, at every step of the way, violence was used for sexual gratification of the pimps, as a form of punishment, to threaten and intimidate women, to exert the pimp's dominance, to exact compliance, to punish women for alleged violations, to humiliate women, and to isolate and confine women.
None if this sounds, um, legal, or even slightly similar to the stories of the sex industry I I've heard from people I've spoken to who've worked their or had friends who did.
Point seven is that legal prostitution makes prostitution and sex industry mote acceptable. And, again, this is bad, because it just is.
Point eight is that women's health is not looked after because condom policy is not always enforced well. Seems legit enough.
Point nine is that legal prostitution doesn't give women real choice. But it doesn't seem to actually make any kind of a case against legalising prostitution. It then says that basically, going into prostitution as a last resort is the same as getting beaten by your partner. I'm not convinced that that's a quality metaphor.
QuoteWhen a woman remains in an abusive relationship with a partner who batters her, or even when she defends his actions, concerned people don't say she is there voluntarily. They recognize the complexity of her compliance. Like battered women, women in prostitution often deny their abuse if provided with no meaningful alternatives.
BUT there is a point here I feel that it is the responsibility of a government to make sure that there are always less shit economic pathways.
Point ten is that some prostitutes think prostitution shouldn't be legal. Again it's a bit iffy to me that this is based on their own interviews.
Points 2 and 3 are obviously directly related.
As for what you've heard from the people you've know that worked in the sex industry (and I hear this same argument raised nearly every time I find myself involved in this discussion with any group of people) I would point out that it's not likely that you've had much chance to hang out with the prostitutes that were trafficked, beaten, forced to become addicted to heroin, murdered, etc.
3:45 http://willamettesailingclub.com/2012/01/psu-open-regatta/
3 IMIX/teal Tue{remaing 1/4's from wash to 508 @3:11
4 sopa B;ACKOUT
5 AKBAL
stargazingliveyeah maybe baby: 10:57 PM 2012 01/18 time to poke a Key
-
i'll side against the English {eaisly) & take the south American side
= =
Enought about the islands & the oil &&& (dah) | the was another point
if i rEMember? oh yeah the 24 hour web BLACk out. ha ha ha, good luck
: : :
GiRLs My point is smething like computers are for sharing | not for
rules that hamper sharing. Like the copy right caper. if it arrives
on your screen its yours to do with it as U wish. copy paste OR ignore
? ? ? ?
And to poise? PIROCY is BooAble. TainT. Move along into the future
if you dont want to share put you time on TV if you do want to be
uoted then Join the Web'sters ranks & sign on. now again about
Proliferation yES. & Prostitution Yes (compulsary} two years 20-22.
/that\
should end the Economic DULL DRUMBS tv likes to talk about
& also could end the need to send boys abroad to put boots
on the ground bo Boo Booo | changing the Millitary from guys
to gals deployed should end most of the made for TV (um} Crap
(this}
is a main plank for WEB/tv CanDates going into the upcomming
season of political posturing. 1 the WEB is yours. not theirs
2 compulsary two year service for females  Lipstick OR
nail polish on your screen | so that U know how U voted & why
Things seem to have drifted slightly from the OP, but my two cents on the feminism angle:
Feminism is about empowering women to make choices in their own lives. If, in some shiny fluffy world where no one ever has any problems, a woman chooses to sell sex of her own free will and enjoys it, it seems like something a feminist should be able to support. A woman choosing to date a man who has a history of hiring prostitutes is, again, exercising her ability to choose, and that should be celebrated. A woman choosing not to date men with that history is making an equally valid choice, and that, too, should be celebrated. You should have complete control over who has access to your body and the unquestionable right to deny that access to anyone at any time for any reason that floats your boat.* That shouldn't even be a sentence you have to say to a feminist, that's pretty much the core of most of their talking points.
Your friends are the anti-feminists.
*which is why I don't go in airports
Points two and three are linked; are you saying the industry couldn't expand without supplementing the workforce with trafficked women?
Also your point about the experience of the people I've spent time with is valid, though I'm still a bit suspect on the idea that either, A the experience of being forced into prostitution by a pimp, held there by threats of violence, being forced into drug dependency or being trafficked across borders is the typical experience inside of legal prostitution,
or B, that the incidence of the above has increased correlating with legalisation.
I'm saying I find it suspect not that I refuse to believe it. I'm reading some of the sources used by the article now, and am willing to have my mind changed.
And I am also willing to have my mind changed. Actually, I'm not sure I've even made my mind up yet. If you've got any links to good sources regarding this stuff (especially hard statistics which seem to be difficult to come by; I've had to do alot of extrapolation to come to some of my tentative conclusions) please do share them!
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 17, 2012, 11:29:40 PM
Things seem to have drifted slightly from the OP, but my two cents on the feminism angle:
Feminism is about empowering women to make choices in their own lives. If, in some shiny fluffy world where no one ever has any problems, a woman chooses to sell sex of her own free will and enjoys it, it seems like something a feminist should be able to support. A woman choosing to date a man who has a history of hiring prostitutes is, again, exercising her ability to choose, and that should be celebrated.
Celebrated? We should throw a party because a woman we know is dating a whore-hopper?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 19, 2012, 03:44:39 PM
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 17, 2012, 11:29:40 PM
Things seem to have drifted slightly from the OP, but my two cents on the feminism angle:
Feminism is about empowering women to make choices in their own lives. If, in some shiny fluffy world where no one ever has any problems, a woman chooses to sell sex of her own free will and enjoys it, it seems like something a feminist should be able to support. A woman choosing to date a man who has a history of hiring prostitutes is, again, exercising her ability to choose, and that should be celebrated.
Celebrated? We should throw a party because a woman we know is dating a whore-hopper?
Yeah, I can't really get behind that.
Okay, "celebrated" was probably the wrong word. "Supported"?
I dunno, the thing is that women who go on and on about a woman's right to choose should not be criticizing the choices those women make. Or at the very least they should not be criticizing any choice as "anti-feminist" because the whole damn point was to let women make those choices in the first place.
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 19, 2012, 08:35:19 PM
Okay, "celebrated" was probably the wrong word. "Supported"?
I dunno, the thing is that women who go on and on about a woman's right to choose should not be criticizing the choices those women make. Or at the very least they should not be criticizing any choice as "anti-feminist" because the whole damn point was to let women make those choices in the first place.
That's pretty much where I was at as well.
The peculiar kind of logic that seemed to be in play was "Women should be able to make their own decisions about their bodies, including prostituting themselves. Therefore, being down on johns equals being down on hookers, and if you're down on hookers you're anti-feminist"
in other words, pure idiocy.
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 19, 2012, 08:35:19 PM
Okay, "celebrated" was probably the wrong word. "Supported"?
I dunno, the thing is that women who go on and on about a woman's right to choose should not be criticizing the choices those women make. Or at the very least they should not be criticizing any choice as "anti-feminist" because the whole damn point was to let women make those choices in the first place.
Sure. The right to choose involves the right to make really, really bad decisions.
Quote from: hirley0 on January 17, 2012, 11:23:08 PM
3 IMIX/teal Tue
4 sopa B;ACKOUT
5 AKBAL
stargazingliveyeah {in seach of
YES: still akBALL's {darkness'ess) day 10:38's? 10:41:26 PM colored
bbc/929 7 :fnord: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/berkshire/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9297000/9297165.stm) LiNk'd 10:52:17 PM
cox :fnord: (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2088476/Stargazing-Live-Brian-Cox-effect-leads-500-increase-telescope-sales-Amazon.html)
6 KAN P&P Proliferate Prostitution
Quote from: hirley0 on January 17, 2012, 11:23:08 PM
5 AKBAL
4 sopa BLACKOUT
3 IMIX/teal Tue
6 OC YES 23:45 (Comprenda'? 20120215 Looking }
9:30 pm while its true | will stop | most posts | not math | OR here
6 KAN {ripe corn 10:36's AM PSt 2Maintian
9:11-13 Sunday 8 CIMI 14 MUAN
15:20 8 EB
I asked my kids if they knew what feminism was. Not one knew. I think a few said it was being feminine like a woman.
This chick has some things to say about feminism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
She rules.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on February 17, 2012, 11:51:37 PM
I asked my kids if they knew what feminism was. Not one knew. I think a few said it was being feminine like a woman.
9 BEN
Quote from: Nigel on February 18, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
his chick ... he rules.
13 CABAN 0030-1 IN GENERAL? the Tree/Tea Group is 3gals
Link later maybe {see givingTREE) However Leader 1(V) was out {cold)?
leaving 2 to play the (¢) Game "TABLE" | I dont ScrabbeL, i DimE | & stay W
?(E} photos Maybe late today | &I avoid screaming Kids ASAP 2(VC)3(U)
12 CIB \ 2:10-2:40 thUS PH2 WAS ADDED to the Ni#111
string AS something to do awaiting the {OH never mind) ?40
11 Men / Mondays Navy ? so WHAT? should a Wise One do
on a day such as today? sped a 1/4 hour explaining that it IS Laundery
day. 2 that i do need a Lawndress 3 AM willing to pay her money to
work at it. It is not hard work like scrubbing walls or mapping floors.
Easy Job take one apple box of dirty close 6 stories down to the
machines in the basement, put in the detergent, add the material,
deposit 5 Quarters, press HOT NORMAL, & return. about 10 min,
Then 1/2 hour later move the wash to dryer | another +5 1/4's |
wait 1 Hr, and return the warm cloths back to the fifth. Why the
Reluctance? Anyway?/?
Sunday 10 Ix {jaguar) Moon enters Aquarius
Maroon: Time to spend much, MUCH more time in this thread
Upon my return from the Saint F, the gal sitting beside the building looks up
at me, I had seen her sitting there head down (sort of dispondent looking}?
Thus as she looked up, i vocalized my LiNE, AM hiring: she smiled & i
approached 1/2 way and handed her one of those fake gold dollors
(picture of a US President} she said "O", i eXXXplained the deal was
$5U$ for 1/2 hour of house cleaning. | Whitch is my LiNE. | she looked
at me, {typical), & said something like FOR WHAT, cleaning! the sower
wall? she thought about that a minute & told me she was waiting for
her boy friend. end of report.
'Poise for a minute that ten females are ask the same question?
$5/.5Hr
over a period of 7 months | what % of the time is the reply
A. Am waiting for Boy Friend
B. Busy, check back in 1/2 hr
C: Cant now maybe later
D! Don't bug me MF
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F_
1 ETZNAB v READ DOWN v
thUS My entry in the COPyLeft
Left Lingering COnCerns About CONplyING.
THUS2.40 at this tme 00:40 i'LL ATTemtp to find?
Reply #206: Yesterday at 07:58:44 PM :fnord: (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,27418.195/msg,1150276.html)
Spider ?/?
Quote from: Nigel on February 18, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
This chick has some things to say about feminism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
She rules.
I watched those and a load of other blogs on her channel. Now teevee and movies make me mad as all hell.
Quote from: Nigel on February 18, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
This chick has some things to say about feminism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
She rules.
Wow, that was a great clip. I admit I've always tended to be in the "equal rights, but not a feminist" camp because of the extremist connotations attached to it. It's funny too, because I really try not to let my perceptions of a group be colored by extremists that associate themselves with that label, since I know there are going be "bad apples" in any group of people you lump together. But, clearly I still have some rearranging to do.
I support legalization of prostitution from a civil liberties and public health perspective but a friend of mine once brought up the counter argument that the conditions that may drive some women to prostitution are abhorrent and exploitative, but I wonder if that's the result of the black market generally. Also prostitution is not an exclusively female enterprise, I wonder if a more matriarchal society would see a higher proportion of male prostitutes? Legalizing prostitution, in my opinion, may very well reduce the detrimental effects that I think may stem largely from the practice's status as a criminalized occupation. But note that long after the legalization of prostitution women will still be exploited in advertising and in patriarchal discourse.
Quote from: moose on February 23, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
I support legalization of prostitution from a civil liberties and public health perspective but a friend of mine once brought up the counter argument that the conditions that may drive some women to prostitution are abhorrent and exploitative, but I wonder if that's the result of the black market generally. Also prostitution is not an exclusively female enterprise, I wonder if a more matriarchal society would see a higher proportion of male prostitutes? Legalizing prostitution, in my opinion, may very well reduce the detrimental effects that I think may stem largely from the practice's status as a criminalized occupation. But note that long after the legalization of prostitution women will still be exploited in advertising and in patriarchal discourse.
People are not a product. Prostitution makes people a commodity. Legalizing people makes people legally a commidity.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 23, 2012, 06:32:13 PM
Quote from: moose on February 23, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
I support legalization of prostitution from a civil liberties and public health perspective but a friend of mine once brought up the counter argument that the conditions that may drive some women to prostitution are abhorrent and exploitative, but I wonder if that's the result of the black market generally. Also prostitution is not an exclusively female enterprise, I wonder if a more matriarchal society would see a higher proportion of male prostitutes? Legalizing prostitution, in my opinion, may very well reduce the detrimental effects that I think may stem largely from the practice's status as a criminalized occupation. But note that long after the legalization of prostitution women will still be exploited in advertising and in patriarchal discourse.
People are not a product. Prostitution makes people a commodity. Legalizing people makes people legally a commidity.
Prostitution is a service. It's a service that a lot of people find distasteful, and can be harmful for the people who provide it. It's not significantly more physically harmful for the people providing the service than coal mining or crab fishing, and with proper regulation in place could be safer than either. The emotional and spiritual damage is a significant factor, but I don't think it's significantly worse than what nurses and therapists risk.* It's not a glamorous job: it's fucking dangerous, the retirement package is atrocious, the benefits are non-existent, and the social stigma is huge. It's still not the same as buying someone.
*QG shared some time in a psych ward with a nurse who burned out
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on February 23, 2012, 06:57:06 PM
The emotional and spiritual damage is a significant factor, but I don't think it's significantly worse than what nurses and therapists risk.*
I have met many prostitutes, back in my old life as a mook. Fact is, the very service they offer robs them of their humanity. By the time I saw them, they were a product.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 23, 2012, 06:32:13 PM
Quote from: moose on February 23, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
I support legalization of prostitution from a civil liberties and public health perspective but a friend of mine once brought up the counter argument that the conditions that may drive some women to prostitution are abhorrent and exploitative, but I wonder if that's the result of the black market generally. Also prostitution is not an exclusively female enterprise, I wonder if a more matriarchal society would see a higher proportion of male prostitutes? Legalizing prostitution, in my opinion, may very well reduce the detrimental effects that I think may stem largely from the practice's status as a criminalized occupation. But note that long after the legalization of prostitution women will still be exploited in advertising and in patriarchal discourse.
People are not a product. Prostitution makes people a commodity. Legalizing people makes people legally a commidity.
All jobs make people a commodity. Skilled jobs especially.
Quote from: BadBeast on February 23, 2012, 08:53:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 23, 2012, 06:32:13 PM
Quote from: moose on February 23, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
I support legalization of prostitution from a civil liberties and public health perspective but a friend of mine once brought up the counter argument that the conditions that may drive some women to prostitution are abhorrent and exploitative, but I wonder if that's the result of the black market generally. Also prostitution is not an exclusively female enterprise, I wonder if a more matriarchal society would see a higher proportion of male prostitutes? Legalizing prostitution, in my opinion, may very well reduce the detrimental effects that I think may stem largely from the practice's status as a criminalized occupation. But note that long after the legalization of prostitution women will still be exploited in advertising and in patriarchal discourse.
People are not a product. Prostitution makes people a commodity. Legalizing people makes people legally a commidity.
All jobs make people a commodity. Skilled jobs especially.
Not in the same manner. A millwright doesn't get burned out the way a prostitute does, because a millwright is valued on skill and brains, not being a piece of meat to fuck.
Yeah that's where my last conversation about this went. I'm sensitive to the point. If it's inevitably/inherently exploitative and dehumanizing then of course it's no good. I'm not convinced that this is the case, but I'm receptive to the point. I still wonder how much of this outlook is due to our particular historical perspective, our views of how relationships should work, and how labor should work. Agreed, people aren't a product. Prostitution needn't make people a commodity exactly, though that's one way to view it. It could also be considered a service. Think of a model--if a magazine hires a model for an ad, they're not really buying the person, they're paying them to pose. If you pay a prostitute, you're not buying them, you're buying sex, and maybe it's by the act, maybe it's by the hour, I don't know how this works, but at the end of the day, everybody goes home. Now if there's a real ethical dimension to this, and there are certain essential characteristics to interpersonal relationships that cause all prostitutes to be exploited and all their clients to be exploiters, that's one thing, but I'm skeptical of essentialism. It's one thing to say it's exploitative given a certain social and historical framework, and another to say that it is always and invariably the way things will be, across all cultures and at all places and times. A prostitute needn't be viewed as an object. I heard on NPR a few weeks ago a report about a prostitute whose clients were all either terminally ill or seriously disabled people, and sometimes she'd just go help them around the house, sometimes she'd just sleep next to them, sometimes she'd have sex with them. I can imagine that there are possible situations and contexts where this trade is respected and legitimatized. But again, these are the objections that really got me thinking, shit, maybe I'm completely wrong and this is an inherently unethical practice. I just always thought the criticism of prostitution stemmed from the Judeo-Christian outlook that saw women as property of husbands or male relatives, rather than agents endowed with self-ownership. So these concerns about exploitation really strike me, because they actually make the objection to the practice seem relevant again.
Do science. Sell your body for 30 days. Try to stay objective. See if the idea of idealized prostitution matches the reality of prostitution. And you even get a head start, you have tha advantage of choosing your tricks. Please tell me after 30 days if you feel that selling your body for physical sex doesn't affect your psyche.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 24, 2012, 05:49:08 AM
Do science. Sell your body for 30 days. Try to stay objective. See if the idea of idealized prostitution matches the reality of prostitution. And you even get a head start, you have tha advantage of choosing your tricks. Please tell me after 30 days if you feel that selling your body for physical sex doesn't affect your psyche.
1 Cauac | the Moon was seen at 6pm 2/23 from the corner of SW 14th
& Jefferson. Appearing as a 2 day old sliver, from behind a small cloud.
1 day & 1/2TBD west of bright Venus etc. thank you Moon: Tbc
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 24, 2012, 05:49:08 AM
Do science. Sell your body for 30 days. Try to stay objective. See if the idea of idealized prostitution matches the reality of prostitution. And you even get a head start, you have tha advantage of choosing your tricks. Please tell me after 30 days if you feel that selling your body for physical sex doesn't affect your psyche.
this is an important point -- a lot of the arguments surrounding this are really wrapped up in privilege. personally, I find it really difficult to come to a conclusion about this whole debate, i've had literally no experience with prostitution whatsoever, and so while i would
like to think that it's possible for prostitution to be empowering and positive, in practice maybe that's not true at all.
Quote from: moose on February 24, 2012, 05:42:33 AM
Yeah that's where my last conversation about this went. I'm sensitive to the point. If it's inevitably/inherently exploitative and dehumanizing then of course it's no good. I'm not convinced that this is the case, but I'm receptive to the point. I still wonder how much of this outlook is due to our particular historical perspective, our views of how relationships should work, and how labor should work. Agreed, people aren't a product. Prostitution needn't make people a commodity exactly, though that's one way to view it. It could also be considered a service. Think of a model--if a magazine hires a model for an ad, they're not really buying the person, they're paying them to pose. If you pay a prostitute, you're not buying them, you're buying sex, and maybe it's by the act, maybe it's by the hour, I don't know how this works, but at the end of the day, everybody goes home. Now if there's a real ethical dimension to this, and there are certain essential characteristics to interpersonal relationships that cause all prostitutes to be exploited and all their clients to be exploiters, that's one thing, but I'm skeptical of essentialism. It's one thing to say it's exploitative given a certain social and historical framework, and another to say that it is always and invariably the way things will be, across all cultures and at all places and times. A prostitute needn't be viewed as an object. I heard on NPR a few weeks ago a report about a prostitute whose clients were all either terminally ill or seriously disabled people, and sometimes she'd just go help them around the house, sometimes she'd just sleep next to them, sometimes she'd have sex with them. I can imagine that there are possible situations and contexts where this trade is respected and legitimatized. But again, these are the objections that really got me thinking, shit, maybe I'm completely wrong and this is an inherently unethical practice. I just always thought the criticism of prostitution stemmed from the Judeo-Christian outlook that saw women as property of husbands or male relatives, rather than agents endowed with self-ownership. So these concerns about exploitation really strike me, because they actually make the objection to the practice seem relevant again.
Can you please break up your future walls of text into paragraph's or something? I find it hard to read.
Back on topic:
I think prostitutes should be pitied and helped if they want help.
The same goes for their customers.
But making it illegal doesn't actually help anybody. It reminds me of abstinence-only sex education.
I don't know if I would put that on the same level as abstinence-only sex education. Abstinence-only sex education is built upon a naive idea that sex is immoral and bad when you are under the age of 18. The reality is that it is a good idea to dissuade kids from choosing sex before the age of 18, not because of morality, but because of the consequences on their lives. STDs, unintended pregnancies, potential for pedophilia, etc. But, at the same time, they need to know safe sex practices because, well, we all know how hormones work.
I think there is a bit more utility in a position of prohibiting prostitution. One is the idea of limiting the spread of STDs. Now, of course one could counter this and suggest you legalize it and regulate it. Which certainly is an argument that merits debate.
I myself don't really have a firm position on this one way or the other. I probably lean more towards legalization and heavy regulation, but I admit not having enough in depth knowledge and experience in this area of policy where I don't really feel comfortable laying down a specific position.
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 24, 2012, 01:30:11 PM
I think there is a bit more utility in a position of prohibiting prostitution. One is the idea of limiting the spread of STDs. Now, of course one could counter this and suggest you legalize it and regulate it. Which certainly is an argument that merits debate.
But the question is, how do you regulate it, and how would you enforce such legislation? A prostitute comes up hot on the HIV card, and they take away her card. She has no other form of income, so she just keeps doing her thing, illegally, although at a lower price than she would have gotten.
The disease spreads further among the poor, and the beat goes on.
The only people that benefit from regulated prostitution are congressmen & trust funders, who can afford a higher class of prostitute (ie, one with a card).
Good points and I can't argue with any of them. I think legalization would have the potential, on paper, of benefitting the prostitute through safety and health regulations. However, you bring up the perfect example of how that goes to hell.
And we all know how the argument of increasing benefits and healthcare for even legalized prostitutes would go. If Americans are all hot and bothered about cutting the benefits of government employees, you know legalized prostitutes wouldn't even be considered for the conversation.
Quote from: moose on February 24, 2012, 05:42:33 AM
I'm not convinced that this is the case, but I'm receptive to the point. I still wonder how much of this outlook is due to our particular historical perspective, our views of how relationships should work, and how labor should work.
Have you ever seen prostitutes up close? Ever talk to one? It's inherently dehumanizing work, and it fucks people up very badly, regardless of gender or their "status". There is no "hooker with a heart of gold", there are no "happy hookers", at least none that have any choice in what they do (and if they do, it's a hobby, not "prostitution"). What there are, are walking wounded with very severe cases of depersonalization and something resembling sociopathy.
The principle difference is, unlike any other occupation, they are not selling their skill. They are selling themselves, their actual meat...Not in a metaphorical sense, but literally. This makes them, in societies eyes
and in their own, an object.
Quote from: moose on February 24, 2012, 05:42:33 AM
But again, these are the objections that really got me thinking, shit, maybe I'm completely wrong and this is an inherently unethical practice. I just always thought the criticism of prostitution stemmed from the Judeo-Christian outlook that saw women as property of husbands or male relatives, rather than agents endowed with self-ownership. So these concerns about exploitation really strike me, because they actually make the objection to the practice seem relevant again.
The criticism is primarily religious. The PROBLEM, though, is psychological.
There is nothing "empowering" about leasing out your body to strangers.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 24, 2012, 01:30:11 PM
I think there is a bit more utility in a position of prohibiting prostitution. One is the idea of limiting the spread of STDs. Now, of course one could counter this and suggest you legalize it and regulate it. Which certainly is an argument that merits debate.
But the question is, how do you regulate it, and how would you enforce such legislation? A prostitute comes up hot on the HIV card, and they take away her card. She has no other form of income, so she just keeps doing her thing, illegally, although at a lower price than she would have gotten.
The disease spreads further among the poor, and the beat goes on.
The only people that benefit from regulated prostitution are congressmen & trust funders, who can afford a higher class of prostitute (ie, one with a card).
The problem I have with the current way in which prostitution is criminalized is that under any reasonable human trafficking law, it would not be the people being trafficked who are punished. It makes no more sense to punish the prostitute than it does to punish children for working in a sweatshop, or slaves for being sold.
In my opinion, a reasonable approach would be to arrest and prosecute the pimps and the johns, and instead of arresting and prosecuting prostitutes, institute programs that offer them counseling, protection, and alternatives.
Quote from: Nigel on February 24, 2012, 03:30:31 PM
In my opinion, a reasonable approach would be to arrest and prosecute the pimps and the johns, and instead of arresting and prosecuting prostitutes, institute programs that offer them counseling, protection, and alternatives.
I agree with this. Pimps are the absolute worst filth on Earth. Johns should get fined and have their faces show up on the police blotter. The prostitutes themselves should not face felony charges under any circumstances relating directly to prostitution.
Almost every prostitute I've met in the course of my careers fell into two catagories:
1. No job skills, and kids to feed.
2. Drug addiction.
In both cases, they inevitably wind up working for a pimp (Seth, for example), for protection against the more deranged Johns, and then they become slaves. Eventually, they get found in a dumpster.
Quote from: Nigel on February 24, 2012, 03:30:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on February 24, 2012, 01:30:11 PM
I think there is a bit more utility in a position of prohibiting prostitution. One is the idea of limiting the spread of STDs. Now, of course one could counter this and suggest you legalize it and regulate it. Which certainly is an argument that merits debate.
But the question is, how do you regulate it, and how would you enforce such legislation? A prostitute comes up hot on the HIV card, and they take away her card. She has no other form of income, so she just keeps doing her thing, illegally, although at a lower price than she would have gotten.
The disease spreads further among the poor, and the beat goes on.
The only people that benefit from regulated prostitution are congressmen & trust funders, who can afford a higher class of prostitute (ie, one with a card).
The problem I have with the current way in which prostitution is criminalized is that under any reasonable human trafficking law, it would not be the people being trafficked who are punished. It makes no more sense to punish the prostitute than it does to punish children for working in a sweatshop, or slaves for being sold.
In my opinion, a reasonable approach would be to arrest and prosecute the pimps and the johns, and instead of arresting and prosecuting prostitutes, institute programs that offer them counseling, protection, and alternatives.
But Nigel, that would require actually going after the people
responsible. But many of the people who are responsible for soliciting prostitutes are upstanding pillars of the community, who were clearly led astray by these temptresses. And as for the pimps, well, clearly they are merely entrepreneurial young men, who seeing that their neighborhoods are full of these foul harlots, decided to capitalize, in true American
TM fashion. I ask you, how is that wrong?
Regret, I agree my wall of text was obnoxious and I'll definitely watch that in the future. Apologies to all. These points are excellent, and I'm certainly reconsidering my thoughts on this issue. This is, of course, only the second time I've seen any non-religious type arguments on the prohibition side of the issue, and I genuinely appreciate the chance to have this kind of interaction with you folks.
Nigel, to your original point, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to want to avoid dating people who'd been to prostitutes, nor do I think it says anything about your attitude toward prostitutes or feminism generally.
I only know one guy who has gone to prostitutes, I didn't think it was especially common, but I guess it all depends. He is the craziest person I know, though. By far. Really far.
Quote from: moose on February 24, 2012, 04:47:27 PM
I only know one guy who has gone to prostitutes, I didn't think it was especially common, but I guess it all depends. He is the craziest person I know, though. By far. Really far.
It's hardly surprising that people who think it's okay to rent other peoples' bodies would be creepy in other ways.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 04:53:08 PM
Quote from: moose on February 24, 2012, 04:47:27 PM
I only know one guy who has gone to prostitutes, I didn't think it was especially common, but I guess it all depends. He is the craziest person I know, though. By far. Really far.
It's hardly surprising that people who think it's okay to rent other peoples' bodies would be creepy in other ways.
This is a really good way of putting it.
Prostitution was never meant to be a profession, it was originally an act of service to deity. A 2 year service as a Temple prostitute was like doing a term in the Peace Corp. Non exploitative, or co-ercive. A Holy vocation.
Prostitution was never "The first profession" at all. Pimping was. The suppression of Matriarchy in the Holy Temples, replacement with corrupt Priests. Moneychangers in the Temple?
Quote from: Nigel on February 18, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
This chick has some things to say about feminism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
She rules.
From that video
Quote
The girls are influenced by femme fatales malicious rhetoric to see benign, routine, everyday things as a conspiracy against women and against them personally. The writers of the Powerpuff girls have carefully created a world without gender oppression so that they can have the girls see gender oppression where none exists
She then goes on about Family Guy and Southpark. It seems a little ironic, because on Family Guy and Southpark all groups get pissed on. It is, basically, a benign, routine, everyday thing on this show that a group gets made fun of and their views misrepresented.
If her point is that TV shows a horrible, broken, distorted view of feminism, then that's a fair point. But TV shows a horrible, broken, distorted view of everything.
I agree that "I agree in equal rights, but I'm not a feminist" is a horrible use of the word feminist, but I can understand them trying to distance themselves from the nutcases. But I don't think this meaning comes from TV.
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:02:42 PM
I agree that "I agree in equal rights, but I'm not a feminist" is a horrible use of the word feminist, but I can understand them trying to distance themselves from the nutcases. But I don't think this meaning comes from TV.
No, it comes from people who should know better, but believe the right wing nutjob propaganda anyway.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 09:04:10 PM
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:02:42 PM
I agree that "I agree in equal rights, but I'm not a feminist" is a horrible use of the word feminist, but I can understand them trying to distance themselves from the nutcases. But I don't think this meaning comes from TV.
No, it comes from people who should know better, but believe the right wing nutjob propaganda anyway.
It comes from a lot of places. For example: if you meet someone on the Internet that informs you that she is a feminist, it's usually one of the nutcases, and they'll probably tell you you should use S/he instead of he or something stupid like that. These people are also most likely to get on the news (read: fark.com) as feminists.
At some point in the past I actually bothered to do some reading about feminism, and these days the word just doesn't mean that much to me anymore. If someone where to say they are a feminist, I would simply ask what they meant with that.
To return to the original topic, my opinion:
The fact that a woman can choose to be a prostitute is empowering, just like any other job for uneducated women with few options would be. I think it is possible to have a decent life and be a prostitute, but only if prostitution is legal, and the woman isn't a slave to someone. I haven't heard of decent prostitution happening on a large scale, and implementing that (without the human trafficking and emotional abuse by pimps) seems like a really hard problem.
However, the right of a woman to sell whatever services she wants (as long as those services don't harm third parties etc.) should triumph over the government wanting to make it illegal, in my opinion.
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:23:07 PM
I think it is possible to have a decent life and be a prostitute, but only if prostitution is legal, and the woman isn't a slave to someone.
1. Upon what are you basing this opinion?
2. It fucks male prostitutes up just as badly.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 09:27:37 PM
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:23:07 PM
I think it is possible to have a decent life and be a prostitute, but only if prostitution is legal, and the woman isn't a slave to someone.
1. Upon what are you basing this opinion?
Not much personal experience, certainly. I saw a documentary once about American prostitutes and pimps. Most of the prostitutes were fucked up/whores, and all of the pimps were horrible people (and completely non feminist. Stuff like "They need me, they can't handle their own life, because they're just bitches.") But there was one brothel in Nevada that was run by an ex prostitute, and the prostitutes seemed pretty pleased over there. Maybe this was just in comparison to the other type of prostitution, but it looked good.
I also get this opinion from what I gather about dutch prostitution. Yes, like Trip said, most of it is fucked up. But there are some good stories. Dutch women that work a few hours a day, and then go home and take care of their children.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 09:27:37 PM
2. It fucks male prostitutes up just as badly.
Good point. I don't know anything at all about male prostitution, so it's not something I feel able to comment on.
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:44:29 PM
Not much personal experience, certainly. I saw a documentary once about American prostitutes and pimps.
Ah.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 24, 2012, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:44:29 PM
Not much personal experience, certainly. I saw a documentary once about American prostitutes and pimps.
Ah.
Just to be clear, I don't mean prostitution being legal and woman not being slaves automatically makes it a proper business. In fact, I think even with those conditions it's hard to make work. But if those conditions aren't met, there is no chance of it going well.
I have a friend who worked as a male prostitute for a short period, and it did not poison his soul. The fact that he was very much in control of the situation at the time and is emphatically "sex positive" probably contributed a lot to that. Regardless, I'm not really going to accept absolutes because I've met an exception, however rare they might be.
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:23:07 PM
It comes from a lot of places. For example: if you meet someone on the Internet that informs you that she is a feminist, it's usually one of the nutcases, and they'll probably tell you you should use S/he instead of he or something stupid like that. These people are also most likely to get on the news (read: fark.com) as feminists.
I don't see how using non-gender specific pronouns is stupid. enlighten me?
Quote from: bds on February 24, 2012, 11:35:06 PM
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:23:07 PM
It comes from a lot of places. For example: if you meet someone on the Internet that informs you that she is a feminist, it's usually one of the nutcases, and they'll probably tell you you should use S/he instead of he or something stupid like that. These people are also most likely to get on the news (read: fark.com) as feminists.
I don't see how using non-gender specific pronouns is stupid. enlighten me?
Using them is not stupid at all. That's very much a good choice you, as author, can make.
But just using he or she is also a good choice. Any reader will still understand, and she will most likely not be offended. It's perfectly clear what the author means. In fact, he can use the different genders to make whatever he is saying more clear to her.
Maybe that's not a good example. But don't think using he (or, alternatively, she) does anyone any harm, and it feels less forced. Calling people on their choice of pronouns seems "not done" (stupid is probably the wrong adjective.)
I am good friends with a woman and know another who were once prostitutes. In both cases, they consider it something that they did in order to survive, are glad to have survived, and never, ever, want their daughters to have to experience.
I was a phone sex girl, and even that ate at me. Perhaps worse, it instilled in me a contempt of and pity for men that was difficult to outgrow.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on February 24, 2012, 10:23:33 PM
I have a friend who worked as a male prostitute for a short period, and it did not poison his soul. The fact that he was very much in control of the situation at the time and is emphatically "sex positive" probably contributed a lot to that. Regardless, I'm not really going to accept absolutes because I've met an exception, however rare they might be.
Also, "short period of time." It isn't like it happens overnight.
My bestie has worked in the sex industry, doing porn. She told me that no matter what, she'd never ever go back to doing it, because it was horrible and desensitizing, and she refused to do straight porn because she could live without vaginas, but not without dicks. She's also been a prostitute because it was either that or she and her little girl starve. She never did much time as either, because knew if she did, she'd stop being a person.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on February 24, 2012, 10:23:33 PM
I have a friend who | might be.
3 AHAU BY POST TIME 23:23-00:00 {MAYBE)
i dont really have many dreams of this type : thus have little experiance
nor do i know exactly WHY the dream ocured? perhaps it was a result of
the lady in the wheel chair. On our way back from Safeway, {Jefferson St)
{{Museum) there was a girl in a wheel chair, sobbing to to the door gal &
guy at the N. YW door. Where the street girls {Homless) go to spend the
night out of the cold, rain, wind. It was all three. As i returned going to
the corner of SW MAIN AND TENTH, i thought i would offer her an orange
to change the scene to something more positive than the plaintiff wails in
progress. She did not want an Orange. she continued her wailing : you
people. ( i guess there is no way at the Y to provide acomadasion to
non stair climbers. Really a rather pathetic scene i would rather not see.
So later this night "I HAD A DREAM" a short fat girl was here in the Apt
whom i had aperently offered a place to spend the night OUT of the Rain
She was very short, & FAT and when the hugging scene occured i had
to get down on my knees just to equalize the situation. She began very
quickly to warm in a rapid manner. About the there was some noise at
the door so i got up to see what was the matter. Otside the door were
about a half dozen young boys, about her age {teen agers) pulling
pranks & carring on next door (where Mr. was moving out} Suddenly i
was engaged in an arms struggle with one, and thus disposed the
rest of the troup entered the apartment, To take up where they had
left off, as i assume the routine was well rehearsed to a fine preformance
I awoke? OR that dream ended. I do NOT usually REMember dreams,
OR maybe i should refer to these times as night Mayors. (oh well} time
passes, a other dream took the 1st dreams place? Well i guess it was
the 1st one. only remember two. the second one was about Music,
lemme call it a theory. A musical person of my aquaintance was there
a long 2x6 slopped down from a high railing into the sea below. the
musician had devised a scale _/ the first movement of which was the
bent spoon transition? he had walked down to the sea on the narrow
plank & when he saw me at the top he began to assend to explain
the first note pair | I dcided to meet him 1/2 way and began my
decent. about 1/5 down the beam tipped, he struggled I sat down
the beam leveld he lost ballance and fell to the rocks at sea edge Ntbc 0:47
Reply #166: Yesterday at 01:36:47 AM yeah?YEAH
Just trying to find my position
it appears to me i skipped yesterday | oh no i see |
there exists today the 1 CAUAC error | that is incorrect # | it was 2
today gREN being 3 AHAU TBC BELOW {MAYBE 3PST 2:36B
2:59? 1ST OFF? not exactly for legalized, pro compulsary.
Why: Because t is my opinion that earth is about to enter into a Religious Zone
A time on Earth of great suffering & calamities | once in 100 year events
Quakes Floods "Liquafaction. in other words economic hard time
to reduce the effects "compulsary" P | provided the age limits are known
and length of serving also Now back to the time Question Just a min
3:04myT Ok so thinking something fisshy was taking place My Time i
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/simpletime.html checked simple time
it stopped counting for a few seconds at 6 so will recheck it again
exactly why simple time stopped i donno ok according to the navy my
clock since yesterday was reset 1 min fast THUS considering the count paused
at six i will check a third & reset Me ok at 3:12 i was set to navy however
it is clear to me that Earth clocks Mine the board & simple are all being foxed
about & thier4 not to be believed. 3:15:00 My t may = 3:14:25B & maybe not
Quote from: hirley0 on February 24, 2012, 09:36:47 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 24, 2012, 05:49:08 AM
Do science. Sell your body for 30 days. Try to stay objective. See if the idea of idealized prostitution matches the reality of prostitution. And you even get a head start, you have tha advantage of choosing your tricks. Please tell me after 30 days if you feel that selling your body for physical sex doesn't affect your psyche.
1 Cauac | the Moon was seen at 6pm 2/23 from the corner of SW 14th
& Jefferson. Appearing as a 2 day old sliver, from behind a small cloud.
1 day & 1/2TBD west of bright Venus etc. thank you Moon: Tbc
Quote from: Nigel on February 25, 2012, 12:28:57 AM
I was a phone sex girl, and even that ate at me. Perhaps worse, it instilled in me a contempt of and pity for men that was difficult to outgrow.
"Contempt and pity" is something of an understatement for me. After nine months on the phones (and, for the record, this was the only job, in my life, I voluntarily walked away from without having another job lined up already), I flat out HATED men. This pretty well poisoned the relationship with the guy I was seeing at the time. I'd be talking with male friends, and catch something... a turn of phrase, or just something in their voice, and I'd wonder if he'd been one of the guys who'd called the night before.
Was it all hell? No, and I came out of it with some pretty funny stories. (Best line ever? At the END of the call, "wait a second, I have to pull over." What the HELL?) But, after nine months of 40 hour weeks... Average 40-50 calls a night... I think I can honestly say there was ONE regular who I didn't mind talking with. Perv? Yes, and his kink wasn't one I'd be into, however, he wrapped up his business quickly, and we'd sit and chat for five or ten minutes... He treated me like a person. He is, after all these years, the only one whose name I remember.
People are people... And when people are given the opportunity to think of something as an object, as a thing they own, they will treat that thing as an object. Look at what happens in pretty damn near any household where a man thinks of his wife and kids as HIS personal belongings... Usually, it involves bruises, broken bones, and hospital trips.
I hear, "well if it's REGULATED, if it's SAFE" a lot about it...
Tell me... How do you make it safe? Medical testing? Who does that protect?
By the time the test comes back positive, well, then, it's a little late, isn't it? Medical testing for prostitutes isn't to protect the prostitutes... It's to protect the johns from picking up something nasty and taking it home to the wife and having to explain to her where he managed to catch it. How do you make it safe? Make a law that says men MUST wear condoms? (If I'm the only woman on this board who's spent a couple weeks staring at a calendar and praying because one of the damn things broke, I'll eat Twid's flat cap, without salt.) You may be able to regulate it... But you can't make it safe.
5:35 OK lemme see if i can prior to news at 6
make any offline ¢ents of this?
2000 population of Greece was estimated at 10601527.
Prostitution is legal and regulated in Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe
nexpensive, about 60 EU a tri
TR2 (http://www.greeceathensaegeaninfo.com/h-greece-tavel-tips/prostitution-laws-about.htm)
5:45 Listen i do not think 60 is "nexpensive, abou"
Li46 Just call us | ok try3
50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulated_prostitution
51 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Laws_regarding_prostitution&action=edit
52 history (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Laws_regarding_prostitution&action=history)
pain's 'low cost' prostitutes - YouTube
2006 (http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/11/economics-prostitution-marriage_cx_mn_money06_0214prostitution.html)
56 time to recon
6AM.
5:10-25 i was going to "#195:" (oh well)
itis My fficiaal Math Hour so i will try to compute the Economic inpact to
Greek economy of this DRAFT | Just a min 5:15 already | slow start
Quote from: hirley0 on February 25, 2012, 10:56:23 AM
Reply #166: Yesterday at 01:36:47 AM yeah?YEAH
Just trying to find my po ... yche.
5:19 that is not a true Quote thats a captured quote that was aborted
assume there is a relationship to population find Greek population
I do not have time in the time remaining | ok check current prices
There? check vurrent economic conditions anywhere? OH i c there
aint any actuall economic data anywhere? is hat the situation? i doono
I guess there are individual checking & savings #'s & house car & boat #'s
maybe even soup & nuts prices here and there (oh never mind time elapsed
5:25 +5 to get ?00
Quote from: Luna on February 25, 2012, 01:09:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on February 25, 2012, 12:28:57 AM
I was a phone sex girl, and even that ate at me. Perhaps worse, it instilled in me a contempt of and pity for men that was difficult to outgrow.
"Contempt and pity" is something of an understatement for me. After nine months on the phones (and, for the record, this was the only job, in my life, I voluntarily walked away from without having another job lined up already), I flat out HATED men. This pretty well poisoned the relationship with the guy I was seeing at the time. I'd be talking with male friends, and catch something... a turn of phrase, or just something in their voice, and I'd wonder if he'd been one of the guys who'd called the night before.
Was it all hell? No, and I came out of it with some pretty funny stories. (Best line ever? At the END of the call, "wait a second, I have to pull over." What the HELL?) But, after nine months of 40 hour weeks... Average 40-50 calls a night... I think I can honestly say there was ONE regular who I didn't mind talking with. Perv? Yes, and his kink wasn't one I'd be into, however, he wrapped up his business quickly, and we'd sit and chat for five or ten minutes... He treated me like a person. He is, after all these years, the only one whose name I remember.
People are people... And when people are given the opportunity to think of something as an object, as a thing they own, they will treat that thing as an object. Look at what happens in pretty damn near any household where a man thinks of his wife and kids as HIS personal belongings... Usually, it involves bruises, broken bones, and hospital trips.
I hear, "well if it's REGULATED, if it's SAFE" a lot about it...
Tell me... How do you make it safe? Medical testing? Who does that protect?
By the time the test comes back positive, well, then, it's a little late, isn't it? Medical testing for prostitutes isn't to protect the prostitutes... It's to protect the johns from picking up something nasty and taking it home to the wife and having to explain to her where he managed to catch it. How do you make it safe? Make a law that says men MUST wear condoms? (If I'm the only woman on this board who's spent a couple weeks staring at a calendar and praying because one of the damn things broke, I'll eat Twid's flat cap, without salt.) You may be able to regulate it... But you can't make it safe.
I think I was able to mitigate a lot of the psychological impact by being a dom... I also worked at home and set my own hours, and had a very strict (if short) blacklist of topics I wouldn't touch. It was very lucrative and I didn't have to work a lot of hours, but working at home also had the drawback of feeling invaded and intruded on in my own home. I started out with a bit of telephone-related anxiety (after a series of harassing calls when I was a teenager, I've never really had a positive relationship with the phone- during the time the harassment was going on, I would have a panic attack and actually have to leave the house when the phone rang), and by the end of the year I was a 900-girl, I couldn't answer the phone anymore at all.
I also wonder how much the existence of phone sex lines led to the harassment that instilled my phone anxiety in the first place?
And what you say about commodification, ownership, and safety are all very true.
Next Post :fnord: P4 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31412.45.html) :fnord: #50 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31412.45/msg,1151946.html)
7 CHICHAN {serpant : reboot 3.1 done | commence EvEn Odd
read down read up sequencing of posts: | end of ATTempts to chat at 'Em
commence Anthro at P.forum Link when ready? i hope Pi UNderStAND'$
As for the Male fraction ?/? words continue to be ESCalate Nerve Endings
face it donno WHAT 1/2 (.5) means ToDay!-!
Prior post :fnord: #7 > Social Sciences/Modern Man (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3790358#post3790358) :fnord: P1 (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=448974) 9 CIMI
ou have been banned fo
:fnord: Prior Post 1:30 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31346.msg1151229.html#msg1151229) ?
5 IK {wind ? 2/27 HaTe A question about this?
Look My guess is Earth is entering a very bad time 1:1000 yr not HUNdred
&that HaTea will be a better bet than Love & Marrage | Ho & Car Age
Now where was the Hundred(100) error
Listen my point here today was ? on windy days like to day
by all means HaTe away get something off you chest | = no top day
ok ed2 1:50:00 ? 49:45
:fnord: Next post :wink: WARmoves (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,28564.45/msg,1151240.html)
4 IMIX ? 1:17:10 My TIME = TBD = :00 OK
THIS takes time
1:30 a.m. Oregon Field Guide Balloon Archaeology in 9 min
:fnord: tv sched (http://www.opb.org/television/schedules/)
:fnord: Ms Next (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31346.15/msg,1151229.html) 1:25:10 = Lost it Darn
:fnord: Ni'Ni: (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31235.150/msg,1151238.html)
Teal Tu / 6 akbal an eveN # top down day
in the NEW divergent {away from center)(proPRO} seaQ¢
1:51+30={never mind) till 2:00 a.m BBC World News
9 short min. I do not like this FF.10 it tries to think4me
and introduces long D'Lay every time i hit a WRONG key
(OH well } where was i HerE ?Archaeology? No it was G
psu.G G.La.sure Something like this | two min REMaining tVon
ok well i can do TV on & 30Min I BET?//? i need a quiet keyboard
:58A Look for F? i do not C Search: 2:00:00 bbc on HoMe'$
:05 http://www.geol.pdx.edu/AGF/
http://glaciers.pdx.edu/fountain/
For Word 7 on bbc today ( comprenda'?
06 Itialian costa alegra 07 Fire 08 Frence tow
09 passangers /BUS /10 16to18 10days NOW? attacks
11{never mind ProP'$ | IMF ECB 15 BiLLion 15e9 12%
12 Twelve Months | 13 Student shot Hi School |
This is a very good conversation. This is not directly related to prostitution, but does show another 'peak' into the 'sex industry', and has me re-thinking the non-prostitution side of things......
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/304610/20120225/stephen-hawking-sex-club-california-physicist-strippers.htm
Quote from: el sjaako on February 24, 2012, 09:23:07 PM
The fact that a woman can choose to be a prostitute is empowering, just like any other job for uneducated women with few options would be.
About as empowering as the fact that a woman can choose to run out in the freeway in front of a speeding semi, "just like any other option for uneducated women with few options would be." :x
Really, we're talking about having to find more dicks to suck every time you (or your kids) need something. Pimp or no pimp. I wouldn't wish that on anybody, with the possible exception of the nazis.
(Then again, yeah, definitely on the nazis. :lulz: )
And while I admire the pragmatic commonsense and tolerance in the Netherlands, as opposed to the puritanical vindictiveness you see in the US, the right thing to do is fix things so people don't HAVE to do this shit.
Yeah, and not treat them like criminals, which we do here, too.
That, and social pariahs.
For trying to live.
Following this thread has been very enlightening. I used to think legalization and regulation would solve most of the problems surrounding prostitution, but I'm not so sure now.
It is possible that men and women from relatively well-off backgrounds can go into small-scale prostitution as a side business and feel empowered by and enjoy that. But, when prostitution is something you have to do to make ends meet, to feed yourself, feed your child, to get your daily shot of heroin etc. it is no doubt very destructive. I think our sexuality is the most intimate, private aspect of who we are, and if we don't have a real choice when it comes to who we share that aspect of ourselves with, it will do fucked-up things to us.
Thanks, PD.
I imagine it can be about the same as rape, except the knifepoint is being dopesick or watching your kid starve.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 02:41:40 PM
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act. why not the same with prostitution?
i'd rather not inject myself as taking a side in this issue, because i have no dog in the fight. my curiosity was just piqued by the apparent disconnect...
Mainly because drugs are not people--they have no will. It's not that complicated to figure out if 2 tons of pot has a history of psychological/sexual/physical abuse that its vendor exploited in a predatory fashion before putting it on the market.
In the sex trade, violence is a means of breaking people's will. I don't even have a guess whether legalization would reduce human trafficking. It would definitely increase the number of pimps, though. Pimps are scum. Whether they raise a hand or not, turning a person out is NEVER a non-violent act. Hell, even if there is no pimp, it's circumstance that turned the person out. Still violent.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on March 15, 2012, 09:38:00 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 02:41:40 PM
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act. why not the same with prostitution?
i'd rather not inject myself as taking a side in this issue, because i have no dog in the fight. my curiosity was just piqued by the apparent disconnect...
Mainly because drugs are not people--they have no will. It's not that complicated to figure out if 2 tons of pot has a history of psychological/sexual/physical abuse that its vendor exploited in a predatory fashion before putting it on the market.
In the sex trade, violence is a means of breaking people's will. I don't even have a guess whether legalization would reduce human trafficking. It would definitely increase the number of pimps, though. Pimps are scum. Whether they raise a hand or not, turning a person out is NEVER a non-violent act. Hell, even if there is no pimp, it's circumstance that turned the person out. Still violent.
Yes, this.
In prostitution, the merchandise is
people.
Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on March 15, 2012, 08:34:40 PM
Following this thread has been very enlightening. I used to think legalization and regulation would solve most of the problems surrounding prostitution, but I'm not so sure now.
It is possible that men and women from relatively well-off backgrounds can go into small-scale prostitution as a side business and feel empowered by and enjoy that. But, when prostitution is something you have to do to make ends meet, to feed yourself, feed your child, to get your daily shot of heroin etc. it is no doubt very destructive. I think our sexuality is the most intimate, private aspect of who we are, and if we don't have a real choice when it comes to who we share that aspect of ourselves with, it will do fucked-up things to us.
Thanks, PD.
I guess I'd say though, that regulation isn't meant to solve all the problems related to prostitution. It's meant to guarantee at least a fundamental level of safety for all involved, and prevent the profits going towards traffickers/smugglers etc. So it's missing a point to say that it doesn't fix things; it's just meant to make a bad situation a better situation.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on March 16, 2012, 01:07:03 PM
Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on March 15, 2012, 08:34:40 PM
Following this thread has been very enlightening. I used to think legalization and regulation would solve most of the problems surrounding prostitution, but I'm not so sure now.
It is possible that men and women from relatively well-off backgrounds can go into small-scale prostitution as a side business and feel empowered by and enjoy that. But, when prostitution is something you have to do to make ends meet, to feed yourself, feed your child, to get your daily shot of heroin etc. it is no doubt very destructive. I think our sexuality is the most intimate, private aspect of who we are, and if we don't have a real choice when it comes to who we share that aspect of ourselves with, it will do fucked-up things to us.
Thanks, PD.
I guess I'd say though, that regulation isn't meant to solve all the problems related to prostitution. It's meant to guarantee at least a fundamental level of safety for all involved, and prevent the profits going towards traffickers/smugglers etc. So it's missing a point to say that it doesn't fix things; it's just meant to make a bad situation a better situation.
This is valid.
Harm mitigation is, IMO, acceptable when harm elimination isn't possible.
That is a good point about the difference between "working for extra income" and "working to keep food on the table." For someone who is relatively financially stable, or at least very close to that point, you can say no to potential clients without hurting yourself too badly. If the choice is "fuck this guy or starve" that's not really a choice at all.
Position shifted.
yeah: NO, i was not trying to avoid the economic d'bait
i would just like to link to a trust worthy site that gave
reasonable accounts of the global situation.
-
i once linked to a site that suggested P is permitted in
Greece? 70 Euro per round turn. My guess is Prices R
going to drop Drastically, After March 11?
= =
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
: : :
end the stupid Male Millitary | & get on with 21st
century realities. Making Money does Matter in
Greece & elsewhere. Why chart IBM or OIL ¬ P
? ? ? ? I think you're seeing it all wrong. | probably | out of date
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe 9:06b & 7
about 60 EU a trick. :fnord: (http://www.greeceathensaegeaninfo.com/h-greece-tavel-tips/prostitution-laws-about.htm) 9:10:11
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
I don't know... maybe he's onto something. A compulsory 2-year term of prostitution for everyone, male and female, would really change up everyone's attitude. :lulz:
OK, maybe not in a good way.
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 01:54:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
I don't know... maybe he's onto something. A compulsory 2-year term of prostitution for everyone, male and female, would really change up everyone's attitude. :lulz:
OK, maybe not in a good way.
Maybe not everybody then.
Might be interesting to make it a condition for running for public office. :p
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 20, 2012, 02:17:02 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 01:54:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
I don't know... maybe he's onto something. A compulsory 2-year term of prostitution for everyone, male and female, would really change up everyone's attitude. :lulz:
OK, maybe not in a good way.
Maybe not everybody then.
Might be interesting to make it a condition for running for public office. :p
It kind of already is.
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 20, 2012, 02:17:02 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 01:54:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
I don't know... maybe he's onto something. A compulsory 2-year term of prostitution for everyone, male and female, would really change up everyone's attitude. :lulz:
OK, maybe not in a good way.
Maybe not everybody then.
Might be interesting to make it a condition for running for public office. :p
It kind of already is.
:mittens: :mittens: :mittens:
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 20, 2012, 02:17:02 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 01:54:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
I don't know... maybe he's onto something. A compulsory 2-year term of prostitution for everyone, male and female, would really change up everyone's attitude. :lulz:
OK, maybe not in a good way.
Maybe not everybody then.
Might be interesting to make it a condition for running for public office. :p
It kind of already is.
Tool the words out of my mouth... thats three times Nigel!! ;-)
Idoubt it The South China Sea(SCS} is not the
Yellow Sea(YS) consideing the 7th's moves its time 4 this update 8:13
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
YES: I DO AGREE, there must be exceptions
8:18
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 20, 2012, 02:17:02 AM
Maybe not everybody then.
Might be interesting to make it a condition for running for public office. :p
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on March 20, 2012, 02:17:02 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 20, 2012, 01:54:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: hirley0 on March 19, 2012, 04:50:31 PM
YES i could be seeing it all wrong, I DO see no reason
WHY it not only should be LegaL : it should be
compulserary. 2 year Min Hitch from age 20 to 22.
I think you're seeing it all wrong.
I don't know... maybe he's onto something. A compulsory 2-year term of prostitution for everyone, male and female, would really change up everyone's attitude. :lulz:
OK, maybe not in a good way.
Maybe not everybody then.
Might be interesting to make it a condition for running for public office. :p
Maybe if we'd try to balance out every position of power with a compulserary service of prostitution, the duration of which proportional to the amount of power a position holds.
5 years -- an MP,
3 years -- Senate, House of Representatives
2 years -- Chair of Provincial Parliament, major public bodies, national chief of police, mayor of large city
1 year -- mayor, chief of police
6 mo -- members of the municipal executive
I dunno rough sketch, plus I probably left out some levels.
You can probably sorta objectively estimate the amount of time by taking
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5207/pnglatex.png)
(
b is a scaling factor and the assumption is that responsibility for a $X million budget can be converted into man-hours via national avg hourly wage and possibly length of work week or w/ever. the log function has the nice property that it transforms things like "number of people below you in hierarchy" into "number of
levels below you in hierarchy, otherwise you'd get a service time of
centuries for the MP or
seconds for the lowest ranks of power)
see it's math, so it's got to be right!
green got the drop carrier{WiFi treatment today? interesting
Quote from: hirley0 on April 27, 2012, 04:18:16 PM
YES: I DO Ag
You already submitted this post! You might have accidentally double clicked or tried to r
tired of r mostly
2 KAN YEAH:
idodo So ?
Quote from: hirley0 on April 28, 2012, 11:55:13 AMgreen got the drop carrier{WiFi treatment today? interestingQuote from: hirley0 on April 27, 2012, 04:18:16 PMYES: I DO Ag
You already submitted this post! You might have accidentally double clicked or tried to rtired of r mostly
^ READ UP ^
Friday 8/24 - 4/28 requires ti83 Finance/D}dbd(4.28,8.24)=118 /-/A 120 in 2 days GoBeV's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe
Quote from: hirley0 on April 29, 2012, 03:56:46 PM
2 KAN YEAH:idodo So ?
Quote from: hirley0 on April 28, 2012, 11:55:13 AMgreen got the drop carrier{WiFi treatment today? interestingQuote from: hirley0 on April 27, 2012, 04:18:16 PMYES: I DO Ag
You already submitted this post! You might have accidentally double clicked or tried to rtired of r mostly
^ READ UP ^
Look? this is about getting out of your HUF.euro's
And into Columbian.####'s got it. chart when av :fnord: (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,20156.1080/msg,1202307.html)
Nice bump, hirley. This was a good read, especially in the context of recent discussions. (Yes, it took me almost a week to read through it all.)