Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Techmology and Scientism => Topic started by: Jasper on February 24, 2011, 08:40:37 pm

Title: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 24, 2011, 08:40:37 pm
I have acquired some Cobalt(II) Carbonate for the purpose of manufacturing a blue flame.  I have played with it, and I have done an amount of web searching in vain hope of finding information on what, when it comes down to it, the best method is. 

Currently my plan has been to stuff some of it into a blank 12ga. shell and fire it from a shotgun, but I have hitherto been unable to determine, well, anything.   :oops: 

I could use a clue.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 24, 2011, 08:48:27 pm
Specifically, the temperature at which the reagent is said to give a blue flame, or some kind of hint as to how I'd work it out myself.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: LMNO on February 24, 2011, 08:49:22 pm
Soap and gasoline.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 24, 2011, 08:57:42 pm
Really!  Bar soap.

Hmm.  I will try it!
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 24, 2011, 08:58:45 pm
Hang on, hang on.  That's... ah. 

Will it work, though?
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 24, 2011, 09:06:16 pm
Polystyrene works better than soap.  Most packing peanuts are made of the stuff.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on February 24, 2011, 09:37:52 pm
Polystyrene works better than soap.  Most packing peanuts are made of the stuff.

Most disposable cutlery as well.  You have to look, you don't want polypropylene.  The flimsy bendable cutlery is polypro, the rigid is polysty...
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 24, 2011, 09:49:23 pm
Hmm.  I'm wondering how I can work this into shotshell form, since that was the boast I originally made that started this project.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Don Coyote on February 25, 2011, 12:05:26 am
Hmm.  I'm wondering how I can work this into shotshell form, since that was the boast I originally made that started this project.
Use some primer and/or powder in the shell to ignite it?
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 25, 2011, 01:02:33 am
I'm pretty sure viscous flaming liquid is *not* something you want to put in a shotgun shell.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 25, 2011, 01:22:10 am
Hmm.  I'm wondering how I can work this into shotshell form, since that was the boast I originally made that started this project.
Use some primer and/or powder in the shell to ignite it?

Yeah, I think flash powder ought to work.

I'm pretty sure viscous flaming liquid is *not* something you want to put in a shotgun shell.

My shotgun cost a hundred bucks, and is a glorified tube.

I mean, sure, it might cause absurd amounts of havoc to discharge such a shell, but would it be a danger to the gun?
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Don Coyote on February 25, 2011, 01:24:18 am
Hmm.  I'm wondering how I can work this into shotshell form, since that was the boast I originally made that started this project.
Use some primer and/or powder in the shell to ignite it?

Yeah, I think flash powder ought to work.

I'm pretty sure viscous flaming liquid is *not* something you want to put in a shotgun shell.

My shotgun cost a hundred bucks, and is a glorified tube.

I mean, sure, it might cause absurd amounts of havoc to discharge such a shell, but would it be a danger to the gun?
Wrap the mass in paper before loading it into the shell? Unless you want the ZOMFGDIDYOUJUSTSHOOTFIREFROMYOURGUNNZOORZZZ effect.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 25, 2011, 01:26:48 am
That was kind of the point, yeah.  I want to make, in effect, a blue dragons breath round, with the exception that I don't want to start huge fires.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 25, 2011, 01:27:09 am
Hmm.  I'm wondering how I can work this into shotshell form, since that was the boast I originally made that started this project.
Use some primer and/or powder in the shell to ignite it?

Yeah, I think flash powder ought to work.

I'm pretty sure viscous flaming liquid is *not* something you want to put in a shotgun shell.

My shotgun cost a hundred bucks, and is a glorified tube.

I mean, sure, it might cause absurd amounts of havoc to discharge such a shell, but would it be a danger to the gun?

Smooth barreled shotguns that are rated to fire slugs arenít damaged by WP rounds, so the gun should probably be ok.  I was thinking more dangerous to you personally.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 25, 2011, 01:28:14 am
Well, I've done stupider things with fireworks and lived to laugh about it.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Don Coyote on February 25, 2011, 01:29:13 am
Well, I've done stupider things with fireworks and lived to laugh about it.

This will of course require videos. Especially if you set yourself on fire.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 25, 2011, 01:30:59 am
Naturally.  If I must die, let it be for the amusement of others.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 25, 2011, 01:36:48 am
Well, I've done stupider things with fireworks and lived to laugh about it.

Fair enough.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Eater of Clowns on February 25, 2011, 01:37:39 am
Snort it.

Keep a match handy for your next sneeze.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 25, 2011, 01:42:18 am
I would suggest firing it with a non flammable liquid of similar viscosity, give yourself an idea of what exactly will get set on fire.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 25, 2011, 01:48:11 am
That sounds fun!

I think for these tests, I might actually buy a fire extinguisher.  Never done that before.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 25, 2011, 01:49:37 am
Snort it.

Keep a match handy for your next sneeze.

Ah, to have ceramic sinuses...
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on February 25, 2011, 03:17:43 pm
Well, I've done stupider things with fireworks and lived to laugh about it.

I know you IRL don't I?  Sparkler bombs?  Roman candle rocket launchers?  Gigantic burn marks all over the lawn...
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Richter on February 25, 2011, 03:44:43 pm
If I remember, most incindeary round are mostly ground metal and chemicals propelled and ignited by the existing charge.  The homemade napalm might be not so good.  Do you have a  proper loading setup? 
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: LMNO on February 25, 2011, 03:52:22 pm
Ok, for the record: DO NOT FIRE BASEMENT-MADE NAPALM OUT OF A SHOTGUN.


I was kidding when I suggested that.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: East Coast Hustle on February 25, 2011, 08:06:43 pm
I don't see why not. Also, AFAIK basement napalm is made from gasoline, polystyrene, and a bar of grated soap that contains glycerine.

and by "AFAIK" I mean "from extensive personal experience".

I thought Cobalt Carbonate was a powder? Why not just load that powder in the shotshell with the primer charge acting as the igniter?
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 26, 2011, 01:13:12 am
It is.

I am going to try that, but I was worried that the primer wouldn't be hot enough.  I've asked a friend who knows some chem & physics to run the numbers, still waiting on that.

But I might want to get some flash powder and aluminum powder anyway.  Just for fun.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 26, 2011, 02:21:30 am
I don't see why not. Also, AFAIK basement napalm is made from gasoline, polystyrene, and a bar of grated soap that contains glycerine.

and by "AFAIK" I mean "from extensive personal experience".

I thought Cobalt Carbonate was a powder? Why not just load that powder in the shotshell with the primer charge acting as the igniter?

It never occurred to me to try polystyrene *and* soap.  I'll keep that in mind, thanks.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 26, 2011, 02:23:12 am
You could try a really coarse gunpowder, it'll burn much slower, and still be going when it leaves the barrel.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on February 26, 2011, 06:22:14 pm
I was thinking flash powder, since it's easier to get a hold of.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Slyph on April 26, 2011, 01:23:57 pm
Does your shotgun eject?
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on April 26, 2011, 05:17:02 pm
Nope.  

But whenever I open the breech, the shell flies out even if I didn't fire it.  I like to practice catching them.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Slyph on April 26, 2011, 07:29:29 pm
Well, I don't know a not, but I know enough to say: Don't shoot incendiaries out of a shotty that ejects.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on April 26, 2011, 07:41:31 pm
It doesn't eject the empty shells until I crack it open.

Still haven't gotten around to testing a round, by the way.  I have tested my blue chemical under an oxy-acetylene burner, just to see if it does turn blue, and it didn't really.  A bit more R&D is needed, sadly I don't have much disposable income at the moment, and it seems the fewer things I have to do, the busier I get.  Argh.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 26, 2011, 07:43:25 pm
This sort of thing, incidentally, occasionally makes the paper.

Not in the way you'd like.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on April 26, 2011, 07:46:24 pm
If you have tips Re: That, I'm ears.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: ch3mist on May 03, 2011, 02:59:30 pm
I have a couple tips:

-Don't load homemade napalm into a shotgun shell.
-If you do, don't fire it.
-If you do, fire it shortly after loading. I can't think of a particular reason why letting them sit would degrade the integrity of the shell or cap if you follow normal storage practices (cool and dry), but finding out that there was a problem could be catastrophic.
-If you do, don't do it a second time without cleaning the shit out of the chamber and barrel.
-If you do, take video and post it here regardless of outcome. In event of death or loss of fingers, have a friend post it.

Back to the original question, your cobalt oxide will be soluble in methanol. If you want to generate a blue flame just to see it you could use an inert material (nonreactive metal rod) to transfer some of this methanol solution to an acetylene (or equivalent) flame.


As for the shotgun thing (again)... You might try another dry agent to increase the temperature of combustion upon ignition of the round (thermite?) mixed with the Co compound and the powder from the original shell but even if things go well you'd seem likely to horribly scar the barrel of your shotgun.

~edited: "try another" not "dry another"
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 03, 2011, 04:28:06 pm
I have a couple tips:

-Don't load homemade napalm into a shotgun shell.
-If you do, don't fire it.
-If you do, fire it shortly after loading. I can't think of a particular reason why letting them sit would degrade the integrity of the shell or cap if you follow normal storage practices (cool and dry), but finding out that there was a problem could be catastrophic.
-If you do, don't do it a second time without cleaning the shit out of the chamber and barrel.
-If you do, take video and post it here regardless of outcome. In event of death or loss of fingers, have a friend post it.

Back to the original question, your cobalt oxide will be soluble in methanol. If you want to generate a blue flame just to see it you could use an inert material (nonreactive metal rod) to transfer some of this methanol solution to an acetylene (or equivalent) flame.


As for the shotgun thing (again)... You might dry another dry agent to increase the temperature of combustion upon ignition of the round (thermite?) mixed with the Co compound and the powder from the original shell but even if things go well you'd seem likely to horribly scar the barrel of your shotgun.

1.  I agree with the above sentiment.  Do not do this.

2.  Then Ch3mist wrecks it by giving technical advice.  Way to go, hero.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: LMNO on May 03, 2011, 04:51:50 pm
In my mind, I'm envisioning every Mythbusters where they attempt to hack together or modify some sort of projectile weapon, which invariably explodes or does something unexpectedly destructive.  Which is why they fire it remotely while they stand behind several inches of shatter-resistant material.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 03, 2011, 04:53:11 pm
In my mind, I'm envisioning every Mythbusters where they attempt to hack together or modify some sort of projectile weapon, which invariably explodes or does something unexpectedly destructive.  Which is why they fire it remotely while they stand behind several inches of shatter-resistant material.

It's also an axiom of the US Army's EOD group that if you live by the explodey, you die by the explodey.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on May 03, 2011, 06:52:40 pm
Then I'm dead already.  I've been toying with fireworks for far too long to stop now.

I can be careful.  If I notice myself doing something that I'm absolutely confident will work, I'll stop and rethink things.  I'm good about that.

Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 03, 2011, 07:01:02 pm
Then I'm dead already.  I've been toying with fireworks for far too long to stop now.

I can be careful.  If I notice myself doing something that I'm absolutely confident will work, I'll stop and rethink things.  I'm good about that.



It's a matter of time.  Professionally trained people go bang, eventually.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on May 03, 2011, 07:04:25 pm
That's the brilliant part.  I only do this sort of thing on the 4th, so with any luck I'll die in the company of my favorite people, on a sunny day, with music playing.

I could think of worse ways to go.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Eater of Clowns on May 03, 2011, 07:05:47 pm
That's the brilliant part.  I only do this sort of thing on the 4th, so with any luck I'll die in the company of my favorite people, on a sunny day, with music playing.

I could think of worse ways to go.

INORITE?  It'd be fucking awful to live to see my 30th birthday.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 03, 2011, 07:06:16 pm
That's the brilliant part.  I only do this sort of thing on the 4th, so with any luck I'll die in the company of my favorite people, on a sunny day, with music playing.

I could think of worse ways to go.

If it's a big enough bang, that will literally be true.
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 03, 2011, 07:06:42 pm
That's the brilliant part.  I only do this sort of thing on the 4th, so with any luck I'll die in the company of my favorite people, on a sunny day, with music playing.

I could think of worse ways to go.

INORITE?  It'd be fucking awful to live to see my 30th birthday.

:gheyforum:
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Jasper on May 03, 2011, 07:10:16 pm
I don't really go for explosions that big.  I've already outdone myself to the point where I'm too scared to keep going in that direction.  I'm more interested in colored flames and hobby rocketry nowadays.  
Title: Re: Chemistry / Ballistics spags!
Post by: Luna on May 03, 2011, 07:14:20 pm
That's the brilliant part.  I only do this sort of thing on the 4th, so with any luck I'll die in the company of my favorite people, on a sunny day, with music playing.

I could think of worse ways to go.

INORITE?  It'd be fucking awful to live to see my 30th birthday.

:gheyforum:

What he said.