Quote from: Page 58The PODGE of the Sacred Chao is symbolized as The Golden Apple of Discordia, which represents the Eristic Principle of Disorder.
Quote from: Page 58The Pentagon represents the Aneristic Principle of Order and symbolizes the HODGE.
Quote from: Page 56It is the HODGE-PODGE of the Erisians. And, instead of a Podge spot on the Hodge side, it has a PENTAGON which symbolizes the ANERISTIC PRINCIPLE, and instead of a Hodge spot on the Podge side, it depicts the GOLDEN APPLE OF DISCORDIA to symbolize the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?"Instead of a Podge (Eristic) spot on the Hodge (Aneristic) side, it has a PENTAGON which symbolizes the ANERISTIC PRINCIPLE."
Is placing an Aneristic symbol on the Aneristic side and an Eristic symbol on the Eristic side supposed to be a meaningful subversion of the balance represented by the yin-yang's shade and light each containing the seed of the other? Is the point that Order and Disorder are in conflict, rather than having a harmonious and flowing relationship? Did those hippies forget which term they were using for which?
There are other Discordian sites/glossaries which have Hodge as Eristic and Podge as Aneristic. Are there explanations of or elaborations on these labels outside of the PEEDEE?
Probably.
QuoteIs placing an Aneristic symbol on the Aneristic side and an Eristic symbol on the Eristic side supposed to be a meaningful subversion of the balance represented by the yin-yang's shade and light each containing the seed of the other? Is the point that Order and Disorder are in conflict, rather than having a harmonious and flowing relationship?
I suspect this to be the case, as it sounds entirely in keeping with the rest of the book.
It could just be that Thornley and Hill did too much of the devil weed and forgot which was which, though.
Aren't the Hodge and Podge sides the same, except for the apple and pentagon? I'm fairly sure that the first several Sacred Chaos I've seen are the same color/shade on both sides, even though a lot of the depictions are more like the Tao.
If I were riffing, I'd say that by placing the Apple in the Podge and the Pentagon in the Hodge, they are labelling the two sides of the conflict (which is an illusion, anyway).
They clearly say that the Apple represents the Podge, and the Pentagon represents the Hodge. And instead of swapping bits of either for the other side, the two sides are represented in balance. Remember, Discordia isn't Taoism -- they just stole a lot of the symbology.
Going further, if you didn't have the symbols clearly indicating which side is which, you'd never know what was being represented; all you'd have would be dichotomy. So we also are able to show how we can only distinguish between order and disorder by LABELLING them as such; without the labels, we would only have swirling Chaos.
Chapter 44
Order or Disorder, which do you prefer?
Creation or Destruction, which do you choose?
Those who chase one are led to the other.
Those who embrace both
are free to choose which is more effective.
The only thing is, can you be sure
which is which?
(http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-chao-te-ching/18759432)
Monday morning quarterbacking, it probably wasn't the best symbology they could come up with. But then, I suppose this symbol wasn't meant to be a literal map of the territory. If it was, then it would be a really bad symbol. Because it would, inadvertently, reinforce the idea of compartmentalizing.
Or maybe it's a test.
Sneaky hippies!
Inside every golden apple of disorder is the five sectioned pentagon of order.
I think the symbols were intentional, because 'order' and 'disorder' are simply the labels we apply to bits of chaos we perceive as patterned or without pattern. Within order is disorder and within disorder lies order. It all depends on what you can get away with....
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2011, 06:21:39 PM
Inside every golden apple of disorder is the five sectioned pentagon of order.
I think the symbols were intentional, because 'order' and 'disorder' are simply the labels we apply to bits of chaos we perceive as patterned or without pattern. Within order is disorder and within disorder lies order. It all depends on what you can get away with....
Re-read his post... according to the wording of the PD, the little piece of order is on the order side, and the little piece of disorder is on the disorder side, rather than a little piece of order on the DISorder side, and the little piece of DISorder on the order side.
What I don't get is how the pentagon is used as a symbol for aneristic stuff.
The pentagon generates more disorder than any other organization on Earth. It's sort of a factory for LMNO's Principle...and it, in itself, is disorderly as hell, as anyone who has ever been there will tell you.
You know, that's a pretty interesting point. I know the pinealist answer to that, but I think we may want to go back to the drawing board.
What symbol most purely represents Order, Rules, Organization?
Off the top of my head,
(http://students.umf.maine.edu/ryan.michaud1/public.www/MATHWEBQUEST/pythag1.jpg)
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 06:44:07 PM
You know, that's a pretty interesting point. I know the pinealist answer to that, but I think we may want to go back to the drawing board.
What symbol most purely represents Order, Rules, Organization?
The American Flag.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 06:44:07 PM
You know, that's a pretty interesting point. I know the pinealist answer to that, but I think we may want to go back to the drawing board.
What symbol most purely represents Order, Rules, Organization?
The American Flag.
Have you
seen what's been going on around here?
I'd have to disagree, for the same reason you want to disqualify the pentagon.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 06:55:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 06:44:07 PM
You know, that's a pretty interesting point. I know the pinealist answer to that, but I think we may want to go back to the drawing board.
What symbol most purely represents Order, Rules, Organization?
The American Flag.
Have you seen what's been going on around here?
I'd have to disagree, for the same reason you want to disqualify the pentagon.
Sure, I've seen what goes on around here. People lining up in neat rows, keeping their heads down, and begging for Uncle Sugar to keep them safe. Add into that the various movements to create anti-flag burning laws, and you get what I'm talking about. The American flag represents everything about America that wants to be a good slave.
The pentagon is a symbol of something that wants to enslave. The flag is a symbol of those who demand enslavement.
Ok, I think I see where you're coming from.
What I'm hearing, pardon the paraphrasing, is that you're talking about the Aneristic Illusion, as opposed to the Aneristic Illusion.
That is, it's focusing on the people who create and demand their easily understood narratives and patterns, who ignore the apparent disorder, and delude themselves with easily digestible order.
If that's not where you were going, apologies; that's where I ran with it.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 07:19:18 PM
Ok, I think I see where you're coming from.
What I'm hearing, pardon the paraphrasing, is that you're talking about the Aneristic Illusion, as opposed to the Aneristic Illusion.
That is, it's focusing on the people who create and demand their easily understood narratives and patterns, who ignore the apparent disorder, and delude themselves with easily digestible order.
If that's not where you were going, apologies; that's where I ran with it.
I think you're on it.
We cannot blame the tyrants. Who hired/elected/tolerated them?
It is The People who are to blame, they are the only silly fuckers mouthing the platitudes of the anerstic illusion.
There is no anerism. Just the illusion. That illusion might be dreary or dismal or deadly, but it's still an illusion. The only real part about it is the hundreds of millions of people that will kill you for pointing out the man behind the curtain.
The State™ is a social fiction, but the guns are real.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 07:45:49 PM
The State™ is a social fiction, but the guns are real.
Precisely.
And cops are a social fiction, but the pepper spray in that 85 year old Seattle woman's eyes and throat are real.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 07:19:18 PM
Ok, I think I see where you're coming from.
What I'm hearing, pardon the paraphrasing, is that you're talking about the Aneristic Illusion, as opposed to the Aneristic Illusion.
That is, it's focusing on the people who create and demand their easily understood narratives and patterns, who ignore the apparent disorder, and delude themselves with easily digestible order.
If that's not where you were going, apologies; that's where I ran with it.
Or maybe Aneristic Delusion. Given that Thornley and Hill were monkeys like the rest of us, I think the actual use of the Pentagon, on some level, might have simply been some political commentary. I mean, yeah, it is obvious that it is, but I guess what I'm saying is that maybe, perhaps, their thinking or reasoning for using the pentagon didn't really go any deeper than that, but then they made up a bunch of gobbelty-gook to make it look all pinealy and shit.
I dunno, maybe the human brain should be the symbol. I mean, that's kind of what that thing was set-up for, right? To try to make sense of all of the sensory input so that we may react to it accordingly.
The Gut is the opposite of that. That thing that yells at you to not pay attention to the brain because it's being a bit uptight and needs to just take five.
I don't know the answer to that... I guess it depends on which came first, the Pentagon, or Starbuck's Pebbles?
On the one hand, the obvious political commentary in the 60's was focused on the War and the Pentagon as the figurative head of the war... but then you have the pagans (which Thornley and Hill were also ripping on) which were venerating the pentagram. The pentagon, as another way to connect the dots and as a political reference makes a double joke.
Then again, they were stoned hippies, so who the fuck knows.
Also, Nigel thanks for pointing that out... I was suffering from being a stoned hippie when I posted. :lulz:
Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe on December 27, 2011, 07:54:46 PM
I dunno, maybe the human brain should be the symbol. I mean, that's kind of what that thing was set-up for, right? To try to make sense of all of the sensory input so that we may react to it accordingly.
The Gut is the opposite of that. That thing that yells at you to not pay attention to the brain because it's being a bit uptight and needs to just take five.
This is actually kind of where I'm going with this. I'm looking into Hodge and Podge as a possible way of describing System 1/System 2 thinking (or the intuitive and the cogitative, the limbic and the cortical) with Discordian labels. First step was to make sure I knew which was which to start with.
I might be totally out of my mind wrong on this but as a symbol of Apparent order:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Stylised_Lithium_Atom.png/200px-Stylised_Lithium_Atom.png)
Quote from: Waffle Iron on December 27, 2011, 10:54:29 PM
I might be totally out of my mind wrong on this but as a symbol of Apparent order:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Stylised_Lithium_Atom.png/200px-Stylised_Lithium_Atom.png)
I kinda like that actually. But it might not work with the mind/gut thing.
An atom would describe the way things are, with no amount of perception changing that fact. An Atom might be a good way of describing the Chaos.
Hmmmm.... I'm riffing here, but what if we have a Lithium atom, with an electron representing fact, another representing organizational perception, and another representing disorganizational perception.... or perhaps, a helium atom. One proton representing organizational fact, another representing disorganizational fact, and the electrons representing perception. We can then superimpose symbols of each relation onto each particle.
Going further, I think I like the idea of using the words organization and disorganization.
Order and Disorder are words that have emotional connotations, at least in English. Disorder is bad Order is good, but there is no inherent moral value when applied to describing organization, and is closer to what the PD was trying to say in the first place, I think.
the pentagon image hits a few things:
(http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/chapter4/wa_geo_a50.jpg)
(1) The Pentagon in Washington DC. This is used as a symbol for American bureaucracy, including McCarthyism and the Vietnam war. The Pentagon building itself, like many of Washington DC's monuments and layout, has been assigned also has mystical significance.
(2) As any 1970s Neopagan will tell you, an upwards facing pentacle is a symbol of, you know, like, good stuff, and an upside down pentacle is a symbol of scary black magic. The pentagon on the hodgepodge is tilted, neither up nor down, letting us know that good, evil, whatever -- those systems of ordering the universe are both equivalent and arbitrary.
and of course, the law of fives is never wrong
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 27, 2011, 04:27:29 AM
Is placing an Aneristic symbol on the Aneristic side and an Eristic symbol on the Eristic side supposed to be a meaningful subversion of the balance represented by the yin-yang's shade and light each containing the seed of the other? Is the point that Order and Disorder are in conflict, rather than having a harmonious and flowing relationship? Did those hippies forget which term they were using for which?
Trick question! There are no sides.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 28, 2011, 01:57:58 AM
the pentagon image hits a few things:
(http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/chapter4/wa_geo_a50.jpg)
(1) The Pentagon in Washington DC. This is used as a symbol for American bureaucracy, including McCarthyism and the Vietnam war. The Pentagon building itself, like many of Washington DC's monuments and layout, has been assigned also has mystical significance.
(2) As any 1970s Neopagan will tell you, an upwards facing pentacle is a symbol of, you know, like, good stuff, and an upside down pentacle is a symbol of scary black magic. The pentagon on the hodgepodge is tilted, neither up nor down, letting us know that good, evil, whatever -- those systems of ordering the universe are both equivalent and arbitrary.
and of course, the law of fives is never wrong
As far as the bolded, I should point point out that even within the 1970s, if you were a European Wiccan, the symbol of the first degree was an inverted triangle, the second degree, an inverted pentagram, the third degree, an upright pentagram with an upright triangle crowning it.
Quote from: Iron Sulfide on December 27, 2011, 09:34:01 AM
Aren't the Hodge and Podge sides the same, except for the apple and pentagon? I'm fairly sure that the first several Sacred Chaos I've seen are the same color/shade on both sides, even though a lot of the depictions are more like the Tao.
Yes, most depictions of the Chao have both sides shaded in the same way, the thin part of the teardrop-shape darker than the round part.
Of course, just because they're shaded the same, and there's two of them aligned all point-symmetrically, doesn't mean they're the
same side. After all, one side got an apple, the other a pentagon. But even without those symbols, they'd be two separate shapes in one symbol, that just happen to be isometrically congruent.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2011, 06:42:18 PMWhat I don't get is how the pentagon is used as a symbol for aneristic stuff.
The pentagon generates more disorder than any other organization on Earth. It's sort of a factory for LMNO's Principle...and it, in itself, is disorderly as hell, as anyone who has ever been there will tell you.
Yeah, I get your point. My guess is, that on the one hand they were (sort of) wrong, picking the Pentagon (the institution/building) as a symbol for order. As Cram, RWHN and others pointed out, it was probably a political commentary of sorts.
I bet if you'd have pressed them about it, at the time, they'd have said "Aneristic Delusion", which kind of makes sense, imposition of Order transforming into Disorder, which then gets buried under more rules and Order, which makes things even more complex and Disordered, and so on. You'd expect this whole back-and-forth to culminate at some point into a superfast greyish flickering Unpleasantness, which really seems it should happen any day now, but frankly I'm not going to hold my breath :)
On the other hand, the pentagon is also an equilateral polygon, a geometric figure. Which is very orderly. They picked the five-sided one because of the Law of Fives, and there's the pentagram connection of course, like Cram said.
If I were to pick a different sort of geometric thing to represent order, I would probably go with the Platonic Solids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_solids), the polyhedra with faces made up of only identical regular polygons:
(http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/5136/platonicsolids.png)
Because there's five of them, you see :) While there's an infinity of regular polygons.
Quote from: Areola Shinerbock on December 28, 2011, 02:08:21 AMAs far as the bolded, I should point point out that even within the 1970s, if you were a European Wiccan, the symbol of the first degree was an inverted triangle, the second degree, an inverted pentagram, the third degree, an upright pentagram with an upright triangle crowning it.
There's many different interpretations of the symbology, of course. Apparently, it was Levi that made the distinction between good (upright) and evil (inverted) pentagrams, while later it was Crowley that subverted this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram#European_occultism
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 01:14:38 PM
They clearly say that the Apple represents the Podge, and the Pentagon represents the Hodge. And instead of swapping bits of either for the other side, the two sides are represented in balance. Remember, Discordia isn't Taoism -- they just stole a lot of the symbology.
Going further, if you didn't have the symbols clearly indicating which side is which, you'd never know what was being represented; all you'd have would be dichotomy. So we also are able to show how we can only distinguish between order and disorder by LABELLING them as such; without the labels, we would only have swirling Chaos.
I didn't say discordia was taoism. My point was basically what you said: the 'sides' of the Chao have no inherent difference, only a label that arbitrarily differentiates between them.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 28, 2011, 02:28:18 AM
Yes, most depictions of the Chao have both sides shaded in the same way, the thin part of the teardrop-shape darker than the round part.
Of course, just because they're shaded the same, and there's two of them aligned all point-symmetrically, doesn't mean they're the same side. After all, one side got an apple, the other a pentagon. But even without those symbols, they'd be two separate shapes in one symbol, that just happen to be isometrically congruent.
Just because they're 'separated' doesn't change that they are only
part of the same symbol. Without Apple and Pentagon (or whatever symbols you substitute), what I take away from this symbol is that What we call Order and Chaos are indistinguishable, making their division meaningless. Adding the additional symbols only gives you a point of reference, a legend for the map, if you will.
[TL;DR: LABELS]
For my bit, I've always preferred "organic/abstract" as the false dichotomy in the chao.
I still quite like the pentagon as a symbol for order, so long as we continue to use Starbuck's Pebbles. Together, the two illustrate "apparent Order" quite well.
As far as the point about The Pentagon generating disorder goes, I think that the Law of Eristic Escalation handles it best, unless we think that The Pentagon is intentionally generating disorder?
Quote from: Iron Sulfide on December 28, 2011, 06:48:47 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 27, 2011, 01:14:38 PM
They clearly say that the Apple represents the Podge, and the Pentagon represents the Hodge. And instead of swapping bits of either for the other side, the two sides are represented in balance. Remember, Discordia isn't Taoism -- they just stole a lot of the symbology.
Going further, if you didn't have the symbols clearly indicating which side is which, you'd never know what was being represented; all you'd have would be dichotomy. So we also are able to show how we can only distinguish between order and disorder by LABELLING them as such; without the labels, we would only have swirling Chaos.
I didn't say discordia was taoism. My point was basically what you said: the 'sides' of the Chao have no inherent difference, only a label that arbitrarily differentiates between them.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 28, 2011, 02:28:18 AM
Yes, most depictions of the Chao have both sides shaded in the same way, the thin part of the teardrop-shape darker than the round part.
Of course, just because they're shaded the same, and there's two of them aligned all point-symmetrically, doesn't mean they're the same side. After all, one side got an apple, the other a pentagon. But even without those symbols, they'd be two separate shapes in one symbol, that just happen to be isometrically congruent.
Just because they're 'separated' doesn't change that they are only part of the same symbol. Without Apple and Pentagon (or whatever symbols you substitute), what I take away from this symbol is that What we call Order and Chaos are indistinguishable, making their division meaningless. Adding the additional symbols only gives you a point of reference, a legend for the map, if you will.
[TL;DR: LABELS]
For my bit, I've always preferred "organic/abstract" as the false dichotomy in the chao.
QuoteAnd so it is that we, as men, do not exist until we do; and then it is that we play with our world of existent things, and order and disorder them, and so it shall be that Non-existence shall take us back from Existence, and that nameless Spirituality shall return to Void, like a tired child home from a very wild circus.
I don't see the division as meaningless. Absurdism states that the meaning of life, is the meaning we give it. I see Omar's "Ordering and Disordering" & "Hodge and Podge" as the Discordian metaphor for making our own meaning in this life. By our subjective view of what is ordered and disordered we find meaning in the chaos of existence. The Sacred Chao also wobbles back and forth which reminds me of Crowley's Solider and Hunchback "every Solider (!) should be followed by a Hunchback (?)" ; every answer brings about more questions... every subjective view of order can be broken down further into disorder and every subjective view of disorder can be broken down into order.
Rather than the philosophy defining that there IS Order/Disorder, Good/Bad, Yin/Yang its up to the observer to create their own Reality Tunnel/BiP/Perceptions/Hodge-Podge view of existence.
In the end though its important to keep in mind the Discordian Revelation by Omar:
Quote
And what is all this shit about who does or does not understand Discordianism? Who the hell cares? If Discordianism was meant to be understood it would be like Zen Buddhism. The greatest of all Discordians, Malaclypse the Younger, doesn't understand anything whatsoever about the religion he co-founded.
Part 1 http://youtu.be/yF_lKdqyu5o (http://youtu.be/yF_lKdqyu5o)
Part 2 http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE (http://youtu.be/nJHHDQ2i0kE)
Quote from: Iron Sulfide on December 28, 2011, 06:48:47 AMQuote from: Triple Zero on December 28, 2011, 02:28:18 AMQuoteAren't the Hodge and Podge sides the same, except for the apple and pentagon? I'm fairly sure that the first several Sacred Chaos I've seen are the same color/shade on both sides, even though a lot of the depictions are more like the Tao.
Yes, most depictions of the Chao have both sides shaded in the same way, the thin part of the teardrop-shape darker than the round part.
Of course, just because they're shaded the same, and there's two of them aligned all point-symmetrically, doesn't mean they're the same side. After all, one side got an apple, the other a pentagon. But even without those symbols, they'd be two separate shapes in one symbol, that just happen to be isometrically congruent.
Just because they're 'separated' doesn't change that they are only part of the same symbol. Without Apple and Pentagon (or whatever symbols you substitute), what I take away from this symbol is that What we call Order and Chaos are indistinguishable, making their division meaningless. Adding the additional symbols only gives you a point of reference, a legend for the map, if you will.
No, really? If you just wanted to make an argument, next time don't phrase it as a question, so I'll know not to bother replying.
Quote from: Waffle Iron on December 27, 2011, 10:54:29 PM
I might be totally out of my mind wrong on this but as a symbol of Apparent order:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Stylised_Lithium_Atom.png/200px-Stylised_Lithium_Atom.png)
I kind of like that, because although it LOOKS ordered, that model is horribly wrong. Which makes for a good second-level metaphor.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 28, 2011, 01:27:45 PM
Quote from: Iron Sulfide on December 28, 2011, 06:48:47 AMQuote from: Triple Zero on December 28, 2011, 02:28:18 AMQuoteAren't the Hodge and Podge sides the same, except for the apple and pentagon? I'm fairly sure that the first several Sacred Chaos I've seen are the same color/shade on both sides, even though a lot of the depictions are more like the Tao.
Yes, most depictions of the Chao have both sides shaded in the same way, the thin part of the teardrop-shape darker than the round part.
Of course, just because they're shaded the same, and there's two of them aligned all point-symmetrically, doesn't mean they're the same side. After all, one side got an apple, the other a pentagon. But even without those symbols, they'd be two separate shapes in one symbol, that just happen to be isometrically congruent.
Just because they're 'separated' doesn't change that they are only part of the same symbol. Without Apple and Pentagon (or whatever symbols you substitute), what I take away from this symbol is that What we call Order and Chaos are indistinguishable, making their division meaningless. Adding the additional symbols only gives you a point of reference, a legend for the map, if you will.
No, really? If you just wanted to make an argument, next time don't phrase it as a question, so I'll know not to bother replying.
Sorry if I offended you. Just offering my perspective.