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CK, the "ain sof aur" bit is from Kaballah.  There are 3 levels of Nothingness before you reach the first Sipharoth, Kether.  Here's a basic introduction:
http://www.byzant.com/Mystical/Kabbalah/Veils.aspx

Wow. Didn't know that.

My first response was to simply dismiss this as a bunch of Madonna-style bullcarp. (yes, carp.)
But, being the sort of fellow I am, I read the thing.

Turns out, I was right. Its not like I can't respect someone's religious views, its just that unless you can prove something to me, I'm not going to believe it.

Hell, you can believe there's an invisible unicorn named Gerald on the moon for all I care. unless you can prove he's there, I'm going to think you're a nutjob.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to think that when i die something special is going to happen, and i'll be surrounded by "God's love", all the people I cared about that died, and my old dog. I'd even be happy with the whole lake of fire thing.

But.. Thats just crazy talk. Truth is, (or at least what I think it is) Man invented the idea of "God" a long time ago so that the species wouldn't self-destruct. If you had the thought that someone is always watching what you do, you'd be less inclined to do bad things.

But that doesn't answer the question of why (or how) things came into existence.

Should that question even be answered? wouldn't that take the fun out of life?

CK,
Ironically not from Missouri

1.  Just because the answer currently is "we don't know" doesn't allow for the creation of some world view to fill the gap.

Hooray for you being cool!

Just because something has a cause we can't observe or identify doesn't mean it didn't have a cause.

i kind of think the ain soph aur incomprehensibility principle is probably correct. not that there's any way of proving it but i would say that there is not much as fundamentally incomprehensible as non-being.

I don't know what that is, really. I even googled it. From what I can tell, it's essentially the same as the whole socrates thing. (True wisdom is knowing that you can never really know anything.)

Thats cool. I can get behind that.

You can say that "being does not come from non-being."


But then you have to ask yourself what the fuck you're talking about.


Perhaps, like physics says, energy cannot be created or destroyed,  However, it can change forms very quickly and easily.  Since some energy (and mass, since Einstein linked the two) is easier to see than others, you may very well experience something as coming from apparently nothing.

There's a huge difference between what "is" and what "appears to be".

I agree. that statement is a bit broad.

And there is all sorts of sciencey stuff that you can throw into the works.

Does it mean anything? Maybe. At this point, very little can be proven, so I try not to put all my eggs in one basket.


CK,

Loves to use the same metaphors old people use.

Yup. In the end, I guess that's about all you can do.

By changing yourself, you can change the world. Really, you are the only person you have complete control over.

Example:

Let's say, for argument's sake, that you cannot get being from non-being. Once this is agreed upon, which it should logically be, you can disprove that nothing is eternal.

So, if nothing is eternal, than everything is temporal.
If everything is temporal, it was created (at some point)
If everything was created, than everything was brought into being from non-being.
Being from non-being cannot be, therefore something must be eternal.


I don't know what is eternal, but obviously something put all this here, and it must have omnipotent power.

But.. thats bogus too, because omnipotent power is self limiting. (i.e. Could an omnipotent being create a rock heavier than that being could lift?  ...Think about it, if you haven't already.)

So, I'm pretty undecided as far as that goes.

For arguments sake doesn't wash in this situation. thinking that "that you cannot get being from non-being" is limiting yourself to a shitstorm of paradox that usually scares most people away from the abyss and back to more mundane matters.

Therein lies the key.

[/shitty crowley impersonation]

Good point. I should really come up with a better example than that, but that's the easiest one to explain. The world is full of paradox that is blindly accepted by the bulk of the population, and i think thats bloody ridiculous.

But hey, thats just how it is. Its not like you can force people into using reason. (though to be honest, you have to use reason to argue that reasoning isn't valid.)

So, here's the big idea: cause as much trouble/chaos/discord as you can, and wake as many cabbages up as possible by making  them see the horrible troofs.

I think you are limiting your arsenal.  One doesn't necessarily have to engage solely in trouble-making, chaos-creating to open minds.  Having conversations with friends, family, co-workers, etc.  who you think may be open to new ideas is a noble and constructive start. 

Even, if by some near-impossible turn of events, we succeed in waking everyone on the planet up, what good does that do? Would it even do anything?

I'm sure you didn't mean this literally and of course waking "everyone" up isn't the goal, and shouldn't be.  To focus it more, if you are able to present to even a small handful of people the possibility that there may be things in their life and environment that they are missing, that is an accomplishment.  I've always said, those armed with themselves have the best chance at survival.  Does that mean they are going to enjoy a life paved in gold and lined with lollipop trees?  Of course not.  It just means they may have a bigger reaction time to events.  It means that maybe they won't take that dead-end job that will turn them into a complete tool.  Maybe a father will stop being so damned serious about everything and play more with his child and become a Dad.  There are lots of possibilities.  It won't change the whole of the world, but it can change something. 

So, if serving someone's absurd concept of a deity is obviously out, what do we do with life?
Eat, work, think, have fun, eat, get depressed, have some more fun, eat a little more, sleep (insert cycling table of meaningless events here)

Is there anything worthwhile out there?

Discordianism, Erisianism, whatever isn't going to give someone the meaning of life.  That's not the point.  You do what YOU want to do with life.  If you find joy in being a cabbie and hitting the pub afterwards, then that's what you do.  You don't do it because you HAVE to, you do it because you WANT to.  That being said, we all still have to do things we don't want to do.  So nothing is 100%.  But, being able to maximize the amount of control you can have on your own course in life is a noble and encouraged goal.  Those who can see more of their world, see more of their surroundings, and see and feel more of themselves will have better chances and more control.  Again, those armed with themselves have the best shot at this. 

Note: feel free to ignore the 50 post thing. I wanna hear what you really think. don't just be nice 'cause i'm a "n00b."

you ask valid questions.  I see no reason for anyone to cause you any turmoil. 

Thanks, man. that clears a few things up. (though I probably should have used waking people up in a better context. I have done the things you suggested, and it is pretty rewarding most of the time. Though, I must say that some people are so set in their beliefs it doesn't matter how good your argument is, they simply lack good reasoning skillz, or they refuse to think on a deep level.)

Oh, and thanks for the compliment.

1. but where did 1 come from?
(thats probably a pointless, and purely argumentative question)

naw it aint pointless

keep in mind:
just because everything you know of and can easily reference has a identifiable beginning, doesnt mean that everything has a beginning

you cant deny the existence of something that 'has no beginning' just because you havent directly observed anything like that

as long as you acknowledge this - you cant go wrong

you dont have to advocate it, but you cant really deny the possibility


that would almost be the same as saying that you can predict the future



when you are in unexplored regions, you cant really use anybody else as a point of reference - you have to explore it yourself

Right.

Example:

Let's say, for argument's sake, that you cannot get being from non-being. Once this is agreed upon, which it should logically be, you can disprove that nothing is eternal.

So, if nothing is eternal, then everything is temporal.
If everything is temporal, it was created (at some point)
If everything was created, then everything was brought into being from non-being.
Being from non-being cannot be, therefore something must be eternal.


I don't know what is eternal, but obviously something put all this here, and it must have omnipotent power.

But.. thats bogus too, because omnipotent power is self limiting. (i.e. Could an omnipotent being create a rock heavier than that being could lift?  ...Think about it, if you haven't already.)

So, I'm pretty undecided as far as that goes.

Things may appear to come from nothing. Just sayin'.

Also, never stop. Continue your train of thought and view everything if you want in cycles. Be a stupid cocksucker for a year of your life but strive to be a smart cocksucker. Always apply the knowledge from different mindsets to the mindset you currently have but don't overdo it. Sometimes it's a game of moderation and sometimes it's something else entirely. Read, reflect and perhaps most important of all: know where to canalize your hate.

They may appear to, but the concept that something can happen without a cause is a bit too post-modernistic for my taste. It has far too many implications that don't make sense.

Other than that, yeah. thats the plan, except for some reason, i don't really have hate. well, not real hate anyway.

Is there anything worthwhile out there?

I dont know
dont think I'll ever know
I'll still keep looking though
Word of advise - be weary of those who say they found it

Words to live by. srsly.

you ask valid questions.  I see no reason for anyone to cause you any turmoil. 

Not so fast my friend...

Lets see what you got, sukka.

(not really an insult, i'm just trying to spur you on here.)

it was love for allah that led me here

and this seems to be more of a process in motion than it is something that anybody is 'trying to do'


as above so below
everything is everything
from 1 comes 2 comes many


now - im not saying that you should take my word for it

the only way you can find out is to pursue the 'meaningless' perspective and see where it leads you


i understand where you are coming from

from a certain perspective it makes sense

investigate it and explore it

try to die and see what happens

1. but where did 1 come from?
(thats probably a pointless, and purely argumentative question)

2. i think i will continue to do the "meaningless" stuff for now, just because its the most meaningful thing i've found so far.

and:
3. i'll try that.

CK,

Just attempting to compile a worldview that doesn't suck.

So, here's the big idea: cause as much trouble/chaos/discord as you can, and wake as many cabbages up as possible by making  them see the horrible troofs.

Cool, right? isn't that the greatest thing ever?

I'm not so sure.

What's the point in that? Is there one?

Even, if by some near-impossible turn of events, we succeed in waking everyone on the planet up, what good does that do? Would it even do anything?

Don't get me wrong. I live for the fun of showing people how the world is, and then laughing as they crap their pants. Really, there isn't much point to anything in life except "the lulz."

However, something must have put all this here. Seriously, things don't come into being from non-being.

[tangent] "George! what are you doing in bed with that other woman!" "Martha! This isn't what it looks like! Uh, she came from non-being." "Oh, alright, I almost thought you were cheating on me, but being from non-being, thats just fine."
[/tangent]

So, if serving someone's absurd concept of a deity is obviously out, what do we do with life?
Eat, work, think, have fun, eat, get depressed, have some more fun, eat a little more, sleep (insert cycling table of meaningless events here)

Is there anything worthwhile out there?


Note: feel free to ignore the 50 post thing. I wanna hear what you really think. don't just be nice 'cause i'm a "n00b."