WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
Written in the spirit by The Good Reverend Roger.
Well? What happened? When did America turn into a huge collection of sissies, begging for our rights to be repealed for our "protection"? That's not America! That's China, or North Korea. What the HELL are we doing?
So far, we've pretty much tossed away our entire bill of rights, along with most of the rest of the US constitution. Warrantless wiretaps, no-knock warrants, a bag full of useless wars that not even the PRESIDENT can properly explain, torture, suspension of habeus corpus...the list goes on and on.
Don't mind that grinding noise, America...That's just George Washington grinding his wooden choppers in his grave.
And don't even think of blaming your government, people. Because, hey, who the hell elected them? Who stood by while "both" parties stripped away our sacred liberties? Who?
That's right. It was YOU, Bubba. Shame on you. Shame on you for pissing on the graves of our founding fathers. Shame on you for wanting to be slaves. And now you are finally getting the government you deserve.
Or Kill Me.
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerBecause, hey, who the hell elected them?
??? i wouldn't have expected you to say this? did you ever take a good look at this four-yearly Reality TV Show you just called elections?
i'm not really a big fan of democracy
per se : the regular kind, majority-vote style thing, not the Democracy(TM) that goes along with the USA-brand of Freedom(TM) cause i don't really agree with the notion of "hey the majority wants it, so it's HAS to be a good idea, right?" (have you ever seen a larger collection of stupidity than the majority of the people ;-) )
anyway that's besides the point i wanted to make. now, i don't want to come off as the stereotypical eurotrash bitching on the usa, but just know that i'm not claiming that it's any better over here. (just different)
now as far as i understand elections in the usa, you got two choices, either Democrat or Republican. and as far as i understand it, they're both the Wrong Choice anyway (sometimes i hear people even say they're basically the same party anyway -- like that futurama episode where they could vote for two identical clones), so people tend to vote for the lesser evil.
now you say that people elected their government in the usa and that it's their own fault? while all the choice they got is basically worthless? would you like the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right? that's like saying that the democratic people's party in china (or whatever it's called) is chosen by the people and their own fault (ok, the chinese propaganda does in fact state this and fabricates elections with one choice etc) .. and several other countries which are usually deemed as "dictatorships" instead of "democracies", even while they make the claim.
also, in another thread i heard you say something about -- what was it? this federal reserve thing? so the government chooses who rules the "private" federal reserve who distributes the money in a way which benefits the large corporations who buy out the political campaigns/brainwashings/propaganda/lies/stuff and control the politicians that are elected (no matter who gets elected) that make up the government which chooses .. etc etc
explain me please, where do the people come in? how exactly is this bubba's fault and not that of the suprahuman corporate entities that you choose to name The Machine?
and yes i understand Bubba makes up a tiny cogwheel in this machine, but it's not the cogwheels that decide what the machine is doing, in the same way it's not my cells that get to decide what i'll be doing, but it's the shape/the structure/the programming of the entire system that decides the direction in which it is going.
in much the same way as i don't give a shit about what happens to my body cells, as long as not a great many of them die out and disrupt my system, do the corporate entities not give a shit about the people that make it up. but you don't hear me claiming that my cells "got the brain they deserved", because that's bullshit, it's meaningless to make such a statement.
and that's my motivation for chaos, disorder. if you want to give the cells or the cogwheels back their freedom, have them fuck it up until the machine/body falls apart, and then keep on fucking it up or otherwise a new machine/body will arise. anyway now i'm drifting a bit. i hope you got my point.
one last thing. there are these "third parties", right? like, you can - theoretically - choose for something else than democrat or republican.
why the fuck don't people do that? are those parties invisible to them like the fnords?
over here we got loads of different parties. usually a ruling coalition consists of three of them, and not always the same ones either. not that it matters much as long as the Christians and the Liberals ("liberal" means "right wing conservative" over here, btw) keep fucking it up, but it at least gives a littlebit of meaning to the concept of democracy and elections. (and i'd be happy for that, weren't it for my first objection about the dumbness of majority vote for groups larger than about 20-150)
QuoteBubba makes up a tiny cogwheel in this machine, but it's not the cogwheels that decide what the machine is doing
but Bubba's
letting it happen, and
isn't doing anything about it.
Quote from: triple zero
now as far as i understand elections in the usa, you got two choices, either Democrat or Republican. and as far as i understand it, they're both the Wrong Choice anyway (sometimes i hear people even say they're basically the same party anyway -- like that futurama episode where they could vote for two identical clones), so people tend to vote for the lesser evil.
now you say that people elected their government in the usa and that it's their own fault? while all the choice they got is basically worthless? would you like the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right? that's like saying that the democratic people's party in china (or whatever it's called) is chosen by the people and their own fault (ok, the chinese propaganda does in fact state this and fabricates elections with one choice etc) .. and several other countries which are usually deemed as "dictatorships" instead of "democracies", even while they make the claim.
one last thing. there are these "third parties", right? like, you can - theoretically - choose for something else than democrat or republican.
why the fuck don't people do that? are those parties invisible to them like the  ?
More people here would vote for the third, fourth, fifth parties, triple z - except that they don't truly understand the concept of puppet #1 and puppet #2. So they're afraid that if they vote for the third party they are in fact helping whichever puppet they least like get into office. And sometimes they are right. At times, we Amurricans are truly faced with a lesser evil and a much greater evil and in those cases, it's a really good idea to vote for one of the puppet party candidates.
Other times, however, the two candidates are pretty much even and that's when it's practical to vote for whichever party you most believe in. Even if your political party of choice doesn't win the election they can get government funded monies to use towards the next election if they receive at least 5% of the votes. And this is one way someone's individual vote can be of real use.
My personal experience has been that I almost never ever vote for the person who's going to win anyway, so now I vote my conscience.
I'm with you.
A third opinion, even if it's completely wack *coughPerotcough* is always a good thing in terms of debate and understanding of issues.
Quote from: PricklyDon't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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...libertarians.....
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ECH,
knows that if the libertarians had their way, they'd get
exactly what they deserve
Our District Attorney is Libertarian.
It's really played havoc with the legal system in this county.
Quote from: PricklyDon't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
Yeah, I hate roads, schools, and national parks, too.
Quote from: triple zeroQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerBecause, hey, who the hell elected them?
??? i wouldn't have expected you to say this? did you ever take a good look at this four-yearly Reality TV Show you just called elections?
Oh, yes, yes indeed.
But did you conveniently leave off the second clause of that sentence?
You betcha.
TGRR,
Thinks he may have to start typing slower, for the reading impaired.
Quote from: PricklyDon't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
Libertarian is just another name for Suck.
Same as Democrat or Republican.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: PricklyDon't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
Libertarian is just another name for Suck.
Same as Democrat or Republican.
Well, actually, it's another name for "suck harder".
The LP is basically for people who don't think the GOP/Dem combine is fucking them hard enough.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: PricklyDon't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
Libertarian is just another name for Suck.
Same as Democrat or Republican.
Well, actually, it's another name for "suck harder".
The LP is basically for people who don't think the GOP/Dem combine is fucking them hard enough.
Yeah, I like the part you threw out there about hating roads, schools and national parks. Sure seems that way.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: PricklyDon't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
<- Active participant in the revolution.
Libertarian is just another name for Suck.
Same as Democrat or Republican.
Well, actually, it's another name for "suck harder".
The LP is basically for people who don't think the GOP/Dem combine is fucking them hard enough.
Yeah, I like the part you threw out there about hating roads, schools and national parks. Sure seems that way.
And while we're at it, let's just remove the very few protections the common man has with regard to corporations.
Because the Free Market,Ñ¢ loves us, and will take care of us. Or we'll starve. Either way, the corporations win.
Fuck the libertarian party. If I wanted to be fucked in the ass by corporations, I'd just reenlist in the military and fight for Halliburton's bottom line.
This reminds me of a new yorker cartoon... A sign in a busines window:
"It's the 'bitch slapped by the invisible hand' liquidation sale!"
Libertarians = Dope Smoking Republicans.
They were too high in Government class to pay attention during the Tradgedy of the Commons lecture. And they obviously have way too much faith in Humanity to not fuck itself over.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?Libertarians = Dope Smoking Republicans.
They were too high in Government class to pay attention during the Tradgedy of the Commons lecture. And they obviously have way too much faith in Humanity to not fuck itself over.
Ah, the Tragety of the Commons, the reason why anarchists and libertarians are full of shit.
RWHN knows the way I go. 8)
a: What do you think upholds all the corporations? If the government wasn't making things harder for competing small businesses, corporations would have much more of a hold on people. I've seen quite a few examples of monopolies created by government regulation driving out the competition (too lazy to go look them up right now sorry), and major corporations regularly lobby for tighter restrictions on themselves if they know they can handle the regulations better than the competition. Getting rid of regulations passed with the intent of restricting competition would remove quite a bit of the power corporations have.
b: I probably understand the tragedy of the commons better than the rest of you. The tragedy of the commons is why nationalized health care costs more for less of an effect than privatized health care: as long as it's free, people will use as much of it as they can get, so there isn't as much room for people who actually need it. The majority of government-provided services work this way, perhaps you could post an example of how privatization would cause a tragedy of the commons before I completely dismiss your argument?
c: You all act like roads, schools, and parks can only be created by governments and have never, ever in history existed without a government having created them. I can think of a few examples of each being created by private organizations in the US. And I'm kinda surprised that you all seem to be big fans of public schooling, I'd think more people here would be disillusioned and have realized that the public schools are more of indoctrination centers than learning centers. I've learned a hell of a lot, very little of it due to the 12 years I spent in public school.
However, most Libertarians couldn't care less about roads and schools with issues like illegal wiretapping, the war on some drugs, gay marriage bans in many states, etc. I'd easily settle for making public schools give more individualized educational opportunities rather than getting rid of them, and don't care if the roads ever get privatized. There's the 5% or so of us who are extremists that talk loudly, and our opponents find the most extreme things they say and spread them around rather than listening to the more moderate members.
The libertarian platform also includes doing away with all licensure for all professions... so, any wacko with a stethoscope can be a bonafide surgeon. Asking for disaster if you ask me. No more qualifications for anything.
I think there are too many hoops to jump through for most things in our beaurocratic society. But some things need standards to be enforced. Public schools need to be forced not to teach religion. Corporations need to be forced not to escort their "employees" to work every day under the guidance of armed escort. Because they would if they could. And we all know it.
Also, libertarians don't shower very often, and that makes me sad.
Quote from: Pricklya: What do you think upholds all the corporations? If the government wasn't making things harder for competing small businesses, corporations would have much more of a hold on people.
What government?
b) So who takes care of that which is not privatized? (e.g. Public Lands) Sure, the private land owners have an interest in managing their lands effectively so they don't completely run out of trees to harvest and go bankrupt. But, someone needs to manage the public lands so they can persist in a viable fashion for the public to enjoy and utilize. An organized entity must perform this or else it goes to hell.
c) There are good public schools, roads, etc. and there are bad ones. I went to a good public school with good teachers. But, I also grew up in rural Maine where the teachers come from the community and have a vested interest in furthering their community. Have you ever driven down a road owned by a paper company in Northern Maine? Trust me, my Blazer much prefers the nice, paved roads of U.S. Route 1.
Additionally, parents have a big impact on how a child does in school whether it is public or private. If parents can foster a sense of wonder and curiousity in a young child as he or she grows, the child will already be armed with 75% of what they need to get a good education. A kid that goes into school not giving a shit about anything is not going to learn anything whether they are in public or private school.
Prickly, have you even HEARD OF the Tragety of the commons before? The historical fact is thus: When everyone uses a common resource (i.e. animal, plant, mineral, etc) and no entity MANAGES the USE of that resource, that resource WILL be depleted in quality and/or quantity.
IT IS FACT.
BMW,
A Natural Resource manager in the making. Literally.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabePrickly, have you even HEARD OF the Tragety of the commons before? The historical fact is thus: When everyone uses a common resource (i.e. animal, plant, mineral, etc) and no entity MANAGES the USE of that resource, that resource WILL be depleted in quality and/or quantity.
IT IS FACT.
BMW,
A Natural Resource manager in the making. Literally.
Yes.
Which is why it should be privately owned. Take endangered species. The few, rare cases of an endangered species having been brought back from near extinction has been because of the efforts of private organizations. Bison were nearly extinct (down to a few thousand) in the early 1900s; the American Bison Association raised and breeded them and there are currently a few hundred thousand more than there were a century ago.
Lumbering still happens in national forests, and is usually pretty devastating, but as long as any of you want to use paper or lumber for anything we can't just stop cutting down trees. A company harvesting on government-owned forests is going to treat them like shit because they don't know if they'll still be allowed to cut trees there next year. If they own the land, they'll want to know that there are still trees to cut down 20 years later and so plant more and treat the land better.
When the government manages it, whoever is allowed to use it will treat it just as badly as if it were a public resource, even if there are some restrictions. Generally the corporate lobbyists are able to make sure that the only restrictions effectively make them a monopoly, which admittedly leads to a slightly tighter supply.
<- got As in all his econ classes, don't step.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
What government?
We're libertarians, not anarchists. Although plenty of anarchists do vote Lib. Then again, plenty are Discordians. Maybe all the Libertarian candidates in your area are extremists, I admit some of the local candidates here I wouldn't want to see in office (although I fell that way about almost ever R & D), but the moderate Libs aren't that bad.
Wait, wait, if I say that you won't get pissed and you won't write more pamphlets.
Alright Roger, you government loving nazi pig, if you love your damn government why don't you marry it? It's already trying to get into your bedroom you know. Trying to cover up its mistakes, pretend it actually does things well, claim that people actually obey the law and that the laws are actually enforced without someone paying people to enforce it the way they want it enforced. Can't you see what it's doing to you? I know you didn't fall down the stairs 3 times last week. You're not that clumsy. Okay, so really you are pretty stupid and that's not all that unbelievable.
Quote from: PricklyQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabePrickly, have you even HEARD OF the Tragety of the commons before? The historical fact is thus: When everyone uses a common resource (i.e. animal, plant, mineral, etc) and no entity MANAGES the USE of that resource, that resource WILL be depleted in quality and/or quantity.
IT IS FACT.
BMW,
A Natural Resource manager in the making. Literally.
Yes.
Which is why it should be privately owned.
Holy shit.
Let me give YOU a couple of examples:
1. Mining in Pennsylvania, prior to 1968 (especially between 1800 & 1910). Toxic slag heaps and barren lands, anyone?
2. The Easter Island self-genocide. Yep. Them trees just grew themselves, right?
Short term profit/gain > Common sense & forethought, every time.
Plenty more examples where those came from.
Quote from: prickly<- got As in all his econ classes, don't step.
You got As in witchdoctory? Good for you. Nobody has taken econ seriously since the Laffer Curve. :lol:
Quote from: PricklyQuote from: The Good Reverend Roger
What government?
We're libertarians, not anarchists. Although plenty of anarchists do vote Lib. Then again, plenty are Discordians. Maybe all the Libertarian candidates in your area are extremists,
Alright Roger, you government loving nazi pig, if you love your damn government why don't you marry it? It's already trying to get into your bedroom you know. Trying to cover up its mistakes, pretend it actually does things well, claim that people actually obey the law and that the laws are actually enforced without someone paying people to enforce it the way they want it enforced. Can't you see what it's doing to you? I know you didn't fall down the stairs 3 times last week. You're not that clumsy.
Okay, so really you are pretty stupid and that's not all that unbelievable.
1. Read for context. There IS no "Government"...just Punch and Judy dolls set up for the rubes to throw rotten fruit at. You're ALREADY living in your Libertarian paradise, and the fun is just beginning. Who do you think pays for politicians to get elected? You? :lol: Sorry chump, it's people like Exxon, Halliburton, and GE...and do you think the politicians are going to fuck up the gravy train? Not likely. They'll do whatever they are told. You've just traded off two parties of fuckwits for one party of fuckwits that
aren't even good at the game.
2. That's a hoot. Go to the LP website. Those fucktards have no love for the constitution, and hate simple things like public roads (if you think roads should be privatized, I invite you to drive on the Illinois tollroad sometime - which is now privatized. I suggest you drive a tank).
3. See #1: There is no "government". Just the stooges of the corporations you libertarians worship.
4. :lol: I love when Libertarians freak out. Do it some more. :lol:
::sits back, watches, munches popcorn::
Quote from: Lady Godiva::sits back, watches, munches popcorn::
Libertarians are my medicine. :D
They're just a different kind of sucker.
::giggles, continues watching and munching::
QuoteYes.
Which is why it should be privately owned.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!11!!11
BMW,
Knows what Roger means when he says he feels like laughing until screaming.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: PricklyQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabePrickly, have you even HEARD OF the Tragety of the commons before? The historical fact is thus: When everyone uses a common resource (i.e. animal, plant, mineral, etc) and no entity MANAGES the USE of that resource, that resource WILL be depleted in quality and/or quantity.
IT IS FACT.
BMW,
A Natural Resource manager in the making. Literally.
Yes.
Which is why it should be privately owned.
Holy shit.
Let me give YOU a couple of examples:
1. Mining in Pennsylvania, prior to 1968 (especially between 1800 & 1910). Toxic slag heaps and barren lands, anyone?
2. The Easter Island self-genocide. Yep. Them trees just grew themselves, right?
Short term profit/gain > Common sense & forethought, every time.
Plenty more examples where those came from.
Quote from: prickly<- got As in all his econ classes, don't step.
You got As in witchdoctory? Good for you. Nobody has taken econ seriously since the Laffer Curve. :lol:
1. Rogers got some good ones here. And Ive got about a thousand more. Which division do you want me to start? Fisheries? Waters? Wildlife? Forestry? Soils? Ive got more than enough to fill a whole forum with companies who
overexploited resources because there was NO ENTITY IN MANAGMENT. And don't pull that "the companies were managing" crap. Management
/=explotation tactics, management is what you DON'T do, and its not managing the resourse, its managing the PEOPLE who USE the resource.
2. Economists are living a lie. Heard of Infinite Growth? Thats what they use as their standard. But any SANE person knows that NOTHING grows infinitely. Period.
You really want to get me started? Bring it on.
Uh-oh! You pulled BMW's nature string!
::continues watching::
Quote from: Lady GodivaUh-oh! You pulled BMW's nature string!
::continues watching::
Nature string? :lol:
Yes! Nature string!
And Prickly shoulda been prepared for what was on the other end!
Oh, I've seen *THOSE*.
Mom used to leave them in the toilet.
Sicko.
When someone has a string on a subject, anyone mentioning that subject will get a lecture on that subject from the person with the string.
Edit: With the practiced ease that the person with the string pulls out the lectures, you'd think they have the lectures on a string.
Edit edit: BMW has a nature string, MechaHobo has a history string, etc, etc...
Ah, I see. ::Information assimilated::
Quote from: Lady GodivaSicko.
When someone has a string on a subject, anyone mentioning that subject will get a lecture on that subject from the person with the string.
Well, when you go to class for two years and learn all the details about this stuff, it feels like second nature to want to go and set someone straight about it.
Most of the stuff people talk about here, like politics, military strategy, etc., I know very little about. But when you get to biology, ecology, natural resources and related fields, I come out of the woodwork.
And don't think that because I don't know much about the previous, that I not trying to learn either.
BMW,
Wants to know everything, even when it causes him to scream for years.
Edit: I just think its funny that you choose to call it the "nature string". Its more of a "bio-ecological overexploitation" string.
Its still a string! :lol:
Quote from: Lady GodivaIts still a string! :lol:
Actually, Ive never heard it called a string before. With us, its "pushing buttons".
Its a term I coined myself. Not surprised you've never heard it. :lol:
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaSicko.
When someone has a string on a subject, anyone mentioning that subject will get a lecture on that subject from the person with the string.
Most of the stuff people talk about here, like politics, military strategy, etc., I know very little about. But when you get to biology, ecology, natural resources and related fields, I come out of the woodwork.
Same goes for a lot of the people talking about a lot of the stuff
INTARNET GEEENIUS care of GOOOOOOOOOGLE.
deet,
bitter. :)
The problem is, Im not all that INTERESTED in politics. In fact, I hate it. But, I know it is important to know what shit is going down, so I pay attention.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe problem is, Im not all that INTERESTED in politics. In fact, I hate it. But, I know it is important to know what shit is going down, so I pay attention.
Ditto.
Now, you give me a d-net by any body of water, and Im right at home. 8)
Maybe we should have you look at our local pond. It frightens me a little.
Quote from: Lady GodivaMaybe we should have you look at our local pond. It frightens me a little.
Is it a dark oily color with little or no vegitation and/or massive algal blooms during the summer, with a stink of sufur for most of the year?
No. Kind of a greeny color with algae blooms during the summer. And its got garbage. And people pee in there. It really pisses me off, I mean, I learned to fish in that pond (live bait only, no lures).
Quote from: Lady GodivaNo. Kind of a greeny color with algae blooms during the summer. And its got garbage. And people pee in there. It really pisses me off, I mean, I learned to fish in that pond (live bait only, no lures).
It sounds like your biggest problem is Eutrophication, usually indicated by the large algal blooms durring the summer.
Its not really bad, and I pick garbage out of it when I can.
The bullfrogs seem to be doing alright, but I haven't heard anything from the peepers (baby frogs), I haven't seen a salamander in the creek that feeds it, haven't seen a crayfish either.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe problem is, Im not all that INTERESTED in politics. In fact, I hate it. But, I know it is important to know what shit is going down, so I pay attention.
nobody is interested in politics. in fact, if they are they might be insane.
sry if i offend, it was more of a blanket aimed-at-teh-world statment.
deet,
has stopped using 'backspace' :)
Ah, like adapting the rule of never writing with pencils to posting?
Meh, I'm passingly interested in how people run the world, if only because of my vested self-interest. I intend to cast votes and educate myself. That's the best i've got for the world right now.
I almost voted once, but then I tried to get the policy books for the parties.
liek jumping through fuckin hoops... I don't think anybody knows what they're voting for
im not old enough to vote :cry:
Nor I. :cry:
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaNo. Kind of a greeny color with algae blooms during the summer. And its got garbage. And people pee in there. It really pisses me off, I mean, I learned to fish in that pond (live bait only, no lures).
It sounds like your biggest problem is Eutrophication, usually indicated by the large algal blooms durring the summer.
And its a man-made pond. I talked to a guy who helped build it.
Edit: Doesn't eutrophication take hundreds of years?
Not if you've got runoff containing fertilizers going into the pond.
RWHN,
Has a degree In Environmental Policy and has one of those nature strings too.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuoteYes.
Which is why it should be privately owned.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!11!!11
BMW,
Knows what Roger means when he says he feels like laughing until screaming.
TROOF.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?Not if you've got runoff containing fertilizers going into the pond.
RWHN,
Has a degree In Environmental Policy and has one of those nature strings too.
Right. Eutrophication IS the NATURAL process of water "turning into land", of sediments and organic matter filling lakes, changing to marsh, and to possibly dryer conditions, a process which does take hundreds of years. But this process is often accelerated by humans, through the introduction of nitrogen fertilizers to the system. This increase in nutrients causes increased vegitation growth during the summer, usually accompanied by large algal blooms. In the fall, the vegitation dies off and accumulates in the benthos, the bottom of the water body. Decomposition occurs during the winter, to the point where the water oxygen suppy is depleted by the bacteria. Fish kills occur; you have them gasping at the surface for air around the edges where there is less ice. Anaerobic bacteria take over the decomposition process. In the spring, you may smell a sulfury, bad odor around the pond; thats the waste products of anaerobic respiration, methane and sulfur oxide. The decomposing matter builds up, because anaerobic breakdown takes longer, the lake gets shallower, soon there are no more fish, and the water takes on a very oily, organic look with low visibilty.
The primary cause of all this is, of course, non-point source nitrogen seepage from fertilizers, either from farming or from developments (i.e., lawns).
Short term fix: Drop an aeration device in the water in early spring, and again in the late fall, to enhance oxygen concentrations and speed up aerobic decomposition. Repeate this every year.
Long term fix: This one is much more difficult, because it means getting people involved and interested in saving this pond.
Step 1) Reduce fertilizer applications in the area. Especially on slopes, and especially around the edge of the pond.
Step 2) Plant riparian vegitation covering as much of the littoral zone as possible, that is, the area of the pond where sunlight reaches the benthos, the bottom. Planting lawn up to the edge is the worst thing anyone could do, ecologicaly and chemically. Properties should have 30 ft buffer zones between the lawn and the water, composed of wetland vegitation (cattails, irises, bullrushes, NOT purple loosestrife; basically, any native wetland vegitation). Things such as docks and boat houses should be minimized as much as possible. The vegitation filtrates and holds the runnoff, as well as providing quality habitat for many bird and amphibian species.
Making a "lake awareness" group is a good first step to all this. Get people involved!
*sigh* Man, that was a mouthful. Get me goin', and Im like a runnaway train.
Quote from: Lady GodivaIts not really bad, and I pick garbage out of it when I can.
The bullfrogs seem to be doing alright, but I haven't heard anything from the peepers (baby frogs), I haven't seen a salamander in the creek that feeds it, haven't seen a crayfish either.
Peepers? You prolly mean spring peepers and/or chorus frogs (
Pseudacris crucifer and
triseriata), which call in the early spring, right after the water is unfrozen. Or you could mean the American toad (
Bufo americana) which has a long high trill that can continue on for sometimes 20 seconds. Those species are all done breeding now, so you shouldn't here much outta them. This is, like you observed, the time when the bullfrogs start calling, and also greenfrogs. You're not likely to find many salamander species in creeks though, they usually like more slowly moving water in larger rivers like mudpuppies (
Necturus maculosus) or in lakes and ponds, many ephemeral (short lived), surrounded by forest, which would be most of the other species.
Im suprised you are not finding crayfish though. They usually have a higher organic polutants tolerance, around a six out of ten on the hilsenhoff biotic index. Unless they simply are not able to get there, because of some sort of barrier...
More questions: Does this pond have both an inlet and a outlet? What is the surrounding area like? How deep is the pond at its deepest point, and what percent is littoral (just estimate)? How much of lakefront (pondfront?) is developed for: Agriculture? Residential? or is in more natural state as: forest? wetland? What is the general substrate: sand? Clay? detrius (organic matter)?
And another question: How receptive would the people in the area be to a lake revitilization program?
Gimme a minute.
Quote from: Lady GodivaAnd its a man-made pond. I talked to a guy who helped build it.
Even if its man-made, the same natural processes apply, and its obviously sustaining its water levels year after year.
Your taking to a man who one day wants to restore wetlands, here. People may help in the beginning, but once the site "shoves off from shore", so to say, the ecological get pumping. How well is all determined by the quality of restoration. Nature doesn't need much help usually, just the RIGHT kind of help.
BMW,
True Restoration Ecologist, In Training.
DIS FREAD IS OVER!
TGRR,
Knows a hopeless case when he sees one. :lol:
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerDIS FREAD IS OVER!
TGRR,
Knows a hopeless case when he sees one. :lol:
You mean, Im hopeless? Hardly. [yoouper]Youse godts me all riled oup.[/yoouper]
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerDIS FREAD IS OVER!
TGRR,
Knows a hopeless case when he sees one. :lol:
You mean, Im hopeless? Hardly. [yoouper]Youse godts me all riled oup.[/yoouper]
NO. DIS FREAD IS HOPELESS.
MRH,
HAS TO DOO DOO.
Heres some pics from the park's website.
http://www.wooster.net/kiwanis/gazebo.htm
I think there are two outlets, by "creek" I meant something small enough to step over, the pond is about ten feet deep at its deepest, the surrounding area is thin woods, and a great big old soccer/lacross field with a baseball diamond. No idea how receptive people would be.
Quote from: Lady GodivaHeres some pics from the park's website.
http://www.wooster.net/kiwanis/gazebo.htm
I think there are two outlets, by "creek" I meant something small enough to step over, the pond is about ten feet deep at its deepest, the surrounding area is thin woods, and a great big old soccer/lacross field with a baseball diamond. No idea how receptive people would be.
(http://www.failratio.net/images/hammertime.jpg)
He asked!
Quote from: Lady GodivaHe asked!
(http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3981/safetytime9ve.gif)
I remember seeing the music video for that guy when I was little...
Quote from: Lady GodivaI remember seeing the music video for that guy when I was little...
I remember seeing it in the barracks.
:cry:
TGRR,
Old as fuck.
Don't feel bad, Tigger! I was like, three or four!
Quote from: Lady GodivaHeres some pics from the park's website.
http://www.wooster.net/kiwanis/gazebo.htm
I think there are two outlets, by "creek" I meant something small enough to step over, the pond is about ten feet deep at its deepest, the surrounding area is thin woods, and a great big old soccer/lacross field with a baseball diamond. No idea how receptive people would be.
Ooooooo....you got some problems.
Lemme start from observation. First big thing I see from the pictures: the lawns run right up to the shore. And there is no wetland vegitation. The water is, at least, very turbid (cloudy), caused either by sediments or organic matter. No inlets, which means all the water comming in is from groundwater, seepage from the surrounding area. And the fertilizer they dump on the soccer field/baseball diamond probably doesn't help matters much. I bet they fertilize the lawn on the grounds too.
Landscaping mulch right up to the water.....*sigh* when will these people learn.
Whats the substrate (the bottom material) of the pond, and then is it the same for the oulets? How large is the pond?
The depth is gonna work against you. 10 feet is usually within the littoral zone, even in turbid waters. Whats the aquatic vegitation like (if any)?
Quote from: Lady GodivaDon't feel bad, Tigger! I was like, three or four!
NO NEED TO RUB IT IN, KID!
\
(http://www.findingfaces.com/artwork/Old%20Man%20With%20Violin.jpg)
Im still not sure what you are talking about Roger. Are you upset because we hopelessly threadjacked? If so, Im sorry, I will move to another location.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaHeres some pics from the park's website.
http://www.wooster.net/kiwanis/gazebo.htm
I think there are two outlets, by "creek" I meant something small enough to step over, the pond is about ten feet deep at its deepest, the surrounding area is thin woods, and a great big old soccer/lacross field with a baseball diamond. No idea how receptive people would be.
Ooooooo....you got some problems.
Lemme start from observation. First big thing I see from the pictures: the lawns run right up to the shore. And there is no wetland vegitation. The water is, at least, very turbid (cloudy), caused either by sediments or organic matter. No inlets, which means all the water comming in is from groundwater, seepage from the surrounding area. And the fertilizer they dump on the soccer field/baseball diamond probably doesn't help matters much. I bet they fertilize the lawn on the grounds too.
Landscaping mulch right up to the water.....*sigh* when will these people learn.
Whats the substrate (the bottom material) of the pond, and then is it the same for the oulets? How large is the pond?
The depth is gonna work against you. 10 feet is usually within the littoral zone, even in turbid waters. Whats the aquatic vegitation like (if any)?
Yuh-huh! There is so an inlet! Theres a creek!
Quote from: Lady GodivaQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaHeres some pics from the park's website.
http://www.wooster.net/kiwanis/gazebo.htm
I think there are two outlets, by "creek" I meant something small enough to step over, the pond is about ten feet deep at its deepest, the surrounding area is thin woods, and a great big old soccer/lacross field with a baseball diamond. No idea how receptive people would be.
Ooooooo....you got some problems.
Lemme start from observation. First big thing I see from the pictures: the lawns run right up to the shore. And there is no wetland vegitation. The water is, at least, very turbid (cloudy), caused either by sediments or organic matter. No inlets, which means all the water comming in is from groundwater, seepage from the surrounding area. And the fertilizer they dump on the soccer field/baseball diamond probably doesn't help matters much. I bet they fertilize the lawn on the grounds too.
Landscaping mulch right up to the water.....*sigh* when will these people learn.
Whats the substrate (the bottom material) of the pond, and then is it the same for the oulets? How large is the pond?
The depth is gonna work against you. 10 feet is usually within the littoral zone, even in turbid waters. Whats the aquatic vegitation like (if any)?
Yuh-huh! There is so an inlet! Theres a creek!
Okay, so, what did the construction entail? Did they just widen out the creek bed and thereby create a flowage lake? Or did they redirect the flowage of the creek into the site? Or are the creeks man made as well?
I before thought you ment two outlets but you probably ment an inlet and an outlet, which entails a flowage lake, not a drainage lake. They are hydrologically very different and it causes for interesting effects.
Plus, you say woods for the surrounding area, but I just see a park with trees and lawn. Woodland entails a canopy, shrublayer, and herbacious layer (wildflowers and such); or at least for a natural woodland this is how it plays out.
(http://poee.co.uk/boards/images/smiles/tgrr.gif)
I have no idea what they did. None whatsoever.
(http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics9/MISC/undergod-Ankleweed.jpg)
That pic is so yoinked, Tigger!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger(http://poee.co.uk/boards/images/smiles/tgrr.gif)
Dammit Roger, is it the threadjack? Just TELL me already!
I think Tigger is cranky cuz we jacked the thread. But with Tigger, one never knows.
Quote from: Lady GodivaI think Tigger is cranky cuz we jacked the thread. But with Tigger, one never knows.
Well, if its about the threadjack I can just delete all my posts, and move this to PM, if you want to continue.
I think I've got enough here to talk to some people about some stuff... I could get my mom to start some sorta something-or-other to fix this.
LG,
-Had no idea it was this bad.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaI think Tigger is cranky cuz we jacked the thread. But with Tigger, one never knows.
Well, if its about the threadjack I can just delete all my posts, and move this to PM, if you want to continue.
Naw. :lol:
TGRR,
Is just getting his asshat on.
Tigger? Will you marry my mom?
Quote from: Lady GodivaTigger? Will you marry my mom?
No offense, but I think both your mom and Roger would be murdered in their sleep by Maria.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaTigger? Will you marry my mom?
No offense, but I think both your mom and Roger would be murdered in their sleep by Maria.
Naw. Maria isn't that patient. :lol:
OW!
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaTigger? Will you marry my mom?
No offense, but I think both your mom and Roger would be murdered in their sleep by Maria.
Naw. Maria isn't that patient. :lol:
OW!
:lol: And the "buns of steel" incident did nothing to temper her bloodlust?
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaTigger? Will you marry my mom?
No offense, but I think both your mom and Roger would be murdered in their sleep by Maria.
Naw. Maria isn't that patient. :lol:
OW!
:lol: And the "buns of steel" incident did nothing to temper her bloodlust?
She's still promising dire revenge. :shock:
:shock: Hide. :shock:
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: Lady GodivaTigger? Will you marry my mom?
No offense, but I think both your mom and Roger would be murdered in their sleep by Maria.
Naw. Maria isn't that patient. :lol:
OW!
:lol: And the "buns of steel" incident did nothing to temper her bloodlust?
She's still promising dire revenge. :shock:
:lol: That sounds like Maria to me.
i was away for the weekend after i posted my message ... :)
tggr, you pick. either you explain what you mean with "conveniently leaving out the second clause in the sentence" but IMO the discussion is not really worth it, or we just leave the thread derailed as it is
Quote from: triple zeroi was away for the weekend after i posted my message ... :)
tggr, you pick. either you explain what you mean with "conveniently leaving out the second clause in the sentence" but IMO the discussion is not really worth it, or we just leave the thread derailed as it is
Or I could just call you a jackass.
TGRR,
Will give you his decision when he's thought about it.
Quote from: Lady Godiva:shock: Hide. :shock:
I can't. She has boobs.
TGRR,
Sucker.
In that case, sleep with one eye open. :wink:
Quote from: Lady GodivaIn that case, sleep with one eye open. :wink:
Won't help.
TGRR,
Boobs upside his head.
:lol:
Bump for nostalgia.