I'm sure you're all familiar with the tale of Pandora's box, but just to be on the safe side:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Pandora's Box
Once, long ago, Mankind lived in perfect happiness. There was no hatred or war, no famine or pestilence, no ignorance or slavery. But sadly, this perfection was not to last. Zeus, angry at Prometheus for stealing fire from him, decided it was high time to piss in Mankind's collective Cheerios. Rather than just blasting everyone with lightning, Zeus came up with a better plan. Namely, trick Mankind into sticking it to themselves.
Zeus called all the gods together and had them place the most horrible things they had into a wonderfully ornate box made by Hephaestus. The gods then presented this box to a woman named Pandora, and forbade her ever to open it. Pandora, like all women, was possessed of a lively curiosity. She had to know what was in the box. One day she lifted the lid ¬?and out flew plagues innumerable, sorrow and mischief for mankind. In terror Pandora clapped the lid down, but too late. Everything the gods had put into the box had escaped. Everything, that is, but one thing: Hope.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Many people are of the viewpoint that Hope was the only good thing in the box, a small boon snuck in by a sympathetic god. This theory, though, is easily shattered. Seeing as Hope was the last thing to come out of the box, it was obviously THE FIRST THING TO BE PUT IN. And why is that?
Because Hope was the MOST INSIDIOUSLY EVIL thing that the gods could muster up.
Seem a bit hard to swallow? Perhaps a few examples will change your perspective...
Meet Daryl. Daryl is a soldier fighting the "war" in Vietnam. One day, Daryl's troop gets placed in a no-win situation. Rather than fighting to the death, Daryl and the other soldiers surrender, with the Hope of fair treatment. After seven years of horrific daily torture, Daryl finally dies of infections and malnutrition. What kept Daryl alive and suffering for so long? The Hope of finally being released.
Meet Susan. Susan is Daryl's wife, or, perhaps I should say "was". Susan's husband never came home, for obvious reasons. Susan never gave up Hope, however, and as a consequence died a little inside everytime she awnsered the door and it wasn't him.
Not convinced of the inherent evil of Hope?
What if I told you that Hope is what allows slavery to exist? A preposterous idea, yes?
Not at all.
Hope causes the slave to do whatever necessary to survive, be it toiling in the fields, emptying mi'Lord and Lady's chamberpots, or filing form PX2279 in triplicate with data sheets neatly stapled in the top right-hand corner. Anything, so long as they can see the Hope of escape glimmering somewhere in the possible future.
Take away Hope, however, and the slaves no longer have anything left to live for. They then all lay down and die or go berzerk, killing all they can before they themselves are killed. This lack of Hope makes slave trading a futile effort, and thus, slavery is abandoned.
And what if I told you that Hope is the root cause of famine? Hear me out on this one.
The Hope of survival causes all the famine stricken people to snatch at whatever tiny morsel of edible material they can lay their hands on. These people slowly suffer and whither away until the inevitable happens.
Take away this hope, and many would kill themselves quickly and painlessly. With less mouths to feed, the food supplies stop being stretched so thin. Hey, whaddaya know! No more famine.
And now you see the true nature of Hope. Hope is peeling the Band-Aid off one excrutating hair at a time, rather than yanking it off and getting it over with.
So abandon all Hope, for then your Hopes can no longer be dashed.
Or Kill Me.
maybe hope requires a fear of death
good rant
QuoteSo abandon all Hope, for then your Hopes can no longer be dashed.
some people would call that pessimistic
not me
but some people
Interesting perspective on Hope.
The words you chose to use were Excellent in the Explanation of the
Possible danger of Hope.
Thanks Putz, something for me ponder today.
I say go a little farther and point out hope is just an attachment to things even more imagined than the "real" world. Any Buddhist will tell you attachment just screws you over, and so will I.
praise the ubermensch!
Good structure on this one, nicely thought out.
I don't believe a single word of it, though.
Mostly because hope is larger than one person. Hope can last through generations, and hope is one of the driving forces of change.
And hey, who doesn't like change? Oh, depressed nihilists, that's who.
Quote from: LMNOhope is one of the driving forces of change.
is it?
or does it provide an excuse not to do anything?
To me, being without hope means one is far less likely to take action than someone who is filled with hope.
I was going to write a long counter-argument as to the importance of hope etc etc etc... but I can't be bothered right now.
DAMN YOU, APATHY!
Quote from: LHXQuote from: LMNOhope is one of the driving forces of change.
is it?
or does it provide an excuse not to do anything?
Is is.
If one does not have the hope that one's actions can actually change anything, then nothing gets done.
Why did we attempt PD06?
Because we
hoped that at least
someone would read it, and think something new.
without hope does not necessarily imply apathy
some people dont have time to hope because they are busy changing shit
Why are they trying to change shit, if they have no hope that it will be changed?
Quote from: LMNOWhy are they trying to change shit, if they have no hope that it will be changed?
why would you have to hope for something to be changed while you are changing it?
am i hoping that i manage to get my pants on while i am putting my pants on?
I know I am...
...Really, LHX, you should know better to try and refute an argument by introducing triviality...
in a sort of technical sense. Not having hope would infer that one knows what the outcome will be. If you have no hope it would seem you already know the outcome. Using your pants, for example, a freak 70 mph wind could come through when you least expect it and blow your pants away. So, you may not be actively hoping you get your pants on but your mind should be subconsciously aware of the possibility you just might not manage to get both legs through in a successful attempt.
But, I'm not defining hope in the pathetically, annoying, bliss-ninny sense. One can have hope and be realistic at the same time. Using your pants again, you have the realistic expectation that yo will, indeed, get your pants on successfully simply because it is a routine exercise that you have completed, I'm assuming, many times before in the past. Why should today be any different?
Of course, trying to spread the philosophy of Discordianism is no routine exercise. But, we don't know what the outcome will be. Some of us "hope" that we can at least reach one or two people that we know or encounter. Others may "hope" we can turn our entire college dormitory. Yet, most of us "realize", I'm assuming, that it will be an uphill battle just becauce societal norms WILL work against us. So, while we may not think of it as"hope" in a literal sense, since we don't really know the outcomes of our efforts, we have to have some sort of "hope" that something will happen. Subsitute the word "hope" for what you will but I think the premise of the word is there whether you actively perceive of it or not.
I "hope" I've made my thoughts clear. :lol:
don't you find the notion of hope to be a bit trivial?
don't you think hope is something people hold on to at the expense of accepting responsibility?
i am going to back track on my words a bit here and say hope is useful if it can help give a person some direction for their actions
but, as far as being an active process, the longer a person sits and hopes for a better tomorrow, the less time they are spending putting in work to set the foundation for a better tomorrow
I think that's pretty much my point... hope is generally associated with change, yes, so I hope I get to see the world change for the better in my lifetime, hell, I even hope I'll be able to play a part in it. Its not likely, and it won't be easy, nobody ever said anything in life would be easy, but I hope it'll happen nonetheless.
If I didn't have hope that things would change for the better, I wouldn't be here.
And again, depending on your viewpoint, the examples of the horrors of hope can be viewed in a positive light-
Daryls story seems pretty clear to me as a tragic case, but what would you rather have had him do? He had hope he would be saved somehow, his alternative to a long, lingering death was a quick one, but on the other hand, there was always the chance (slim as it may have been) that he would have been saved. Without that hope, he would have died sooner, and if that chance -had- come along, that's one more death that could have been prevented.
Hell, I know that no matter what condition I might be in, I would want to cling to life for as long as possible, much like Daryl, in the hope that it would get better. Why? Because I find the concept of dying terrifying, but maybe that is just me.
As for slavery, I wouldn't say its the hope of escape, but the hope of freedom that kept them going. If they hadn't had that hope, they would all have been killed, and look at where that would leave us today. And if you really think slavery is abandoned today, you are wrong, that's all I'm going to say on that. But those people have -hope- that they will be freed, and particularly in the sex slave trade in the western world, that hope has kept many women alive, and yes, lots are freed.
Hope is what keeps humans going in the direst of situations, hope is the glimmer of spirit that keeps people struggling on despite the most dire circumstances. Hope is what makes those mountaineers who chew through their own arm to get away, or those citizens who rise up against the evil empire, or whatever, act.
Hope is not apathy, it can, however, lead to the belief that by not acting today, the hope of a better world tomorrow can be found.
Sometimes this is correct, sometimes it isn't. But on a more personal level, hope is what keeps people with terminal illnesses struggling on, and hope is what sometimes pulls them through.
Where is the 'intrisic evil' of hope in that situation?
I think the notion of hope CAN be trivial. It has great potential to be trivial.
It's a dangerous implement that people can use at their detriment. Those are the bliss-ninnies who think as long as they are optimistic that everything will be alright.
However, I can have Realistic Hope(tm). Which, basically, is keeping your eyes on your target but not putting the blinders on. You "hope" you can reach your goal by putting forth your best efforts. However, you are simultaneously going to survey the field around you. Because, you know that at any point something and/or someone could trip you up. If you aren't paying attention you will lose.
So, Bliss-Ninny Hope(tm) is for suckers.
Realistic Hope(tm) is for the responsible folk.
this developed into a nice thread
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?I think the notion of hope CAN be trivial. It has great potential to be trivial.
It's a dangerous implement that people can use at their detriment. Those are the bliss-ninnies who think as long as they are optimistic that everything will be alright.
However, I can have Realistic Hope(tm). Which, basically, is keeping your eyes on your target but not putting the blinders on. You "hope" you can reach your goal by putting forth your best efforts. However, you are simultaneously going to survey the field around you. Because, you know that at any point something and/or someone could trip you up. If you aren't paying attention you will lose.
So, Bliss-Ninny Hope(tm) is for suckers.
Realistic Hope(tm) is for the responsible folk.
maybe that's what i'm trying to get at here
putting forth your best efforts IS the only reasonable goal
hope can often seem to be a trivial by-product of little consequence
you can't 'hope' to put forth your best effort
its interesting that 'hope' was mentioned involving PD06
because the ensuing discussions suggested to me that it was less about 'hope' and more about being a progression in a process
I agree with these statements.
Do or do not. There is no try.
[/star wars geek quote]
I think we're drawing a line between, "I hope that if I sit here and do nothing, that something will change for the better," and "I hope that this thing I'm doing to change my situation for the better will actually work..."
In both cases, hope seems to be acting not as an instigator of action, but an optimistic predictor of the future.
So, maybe I replied too hastily. Hope seems to have little to do with change, but is more a function of optimism.
So, we should be looking at what is the difference between an optimist who thinks that things might change if they do nothing (not "mu/wu-wei" nothing), and the optimist who thinks what they do will change somthing.
Quote from: LMNOHope seems to have little to do with change, but is more a function of optimism.
i can get behind this
Quote from: LMNO
So, we should be looking at what is the difference between an optimist who thinks that things might change if they do nothing (not "mu/wu-wei" nothing), and the optimist who thinks what they do will change somthing.
from my perspective, it seems to be a measure of 2 things
1 - how much a person identifies themselves as part of a process
2 - how much a person identifies that they have responsibilities to be carried out within the process
and a corollary of #2 would be a measure of what repercussions a person faces if they don't attend to their responsibilities as they have understood them
a lot of this speaks to the old fate v free will argument
as far as optimism goes -
is it optimistic or objective to observe the apparently relentless eventual balance of all things?
Although I see where you're going...
[semantics]
to "observe" tends to negate the optimisim or pessimism of a thing, seeing as how optimism and pessimism are subjective.
[/semantics]
However, to answer you directly, I think it depends on what side of the pendulum you're on.
For the example, the story about the king who wanted to be cheered up whenever he was in a bad mood, and received a ring that was inscribed, "and this, too, shall pass," could also be told about a king who wanted to get bummed out every time he was happy.
Quote from: LMNOAlthough I see where you're going...
[semantics]
to "observe" tends to negate the optimisim or pessimism of a thing, seeing as how optimism and pessimism are subjective.
[/semantics]
yeah - we can leave that aspect of the discussion out of this for now
Quote from: LMNO
However, to answer you directly, I think it depends on what side of the pendulum you're on.
For the example, the story about the king who wanted to be cheered up whenever he was in a bad mood, and received a ring that was inscribed, "and this, too, shall pass," could also be told about a king who wanted to get bummed out every time he was happy.
we have tools
and we learn how to use them in anticipation of finding ourselves on either side of the pendulum
one of the thrills of being the type of folk who thrive on 'new' and 'unknown' (the type who arent afraid to see the known universe for what it is)
and if you're gonna call me on my trivial pants scenario
then i have to call you on a king who wanted to get bummed out every time he was happy
touche.
My point was, of course, that to believe that things balance themselves out is a comfort when times are bad, but a discomfort when times are good.
I don't think either example is trivial. Because both lend themselves to the untrivial if you are open to it. Wasn't that one of our points in PD06. As soon as you start limiting your thoughts and possibilities you are allowing the lock to be a lock.
I gave the example of the freak wind spoiling the attempt at putting ones pants on. Sure, it may seem outlandish but it could happen.
I think I see maybe logic on the horizon...
Quote from: LMNOI think I see maybe logic on the horizon...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Quote from: LMNOtouche.
My point was, of course, that to believe that things balance themselves out is a comfort when times are bad, but a discomfort when times are good.
My dad tells me, when we go out target practicing for traditional archery, that it is best to not get happy when you hit, and not get down when you miss. Merely shoot.
My dad is kinda Zen sometimes...
Indeed.
That's the way it was fopr me when I was shooting trap/skeet.
Quote from: LMNOIndeed.
That's the way it was fopr me when I was shooting trap/skeet.
Too bad Im terrible at it. Theres a lot of not getting sad for me. :lol:
Quote from: Kai Wren
Daryls story seems pretty clear to me as a tragic case, but what would you rather have had him do? He had hope he would be saved somehow, his alternative to a long, lingering death was a quick one, but on the other hand, there was always the chance (slim as it may have been) that he would have been saved. Without that hope, he would have died sooner, and if that chance -had- come along, that's one more death that could have been prevented.
In Norse mythology, those who die fighting a hopeless battle go to Vahalla.
Quote from: Kai Wren
As for slavery, I wouldn't say its the hope of escape, but the hope of freedom that kept them going. If they hadn't had that hope, they would all have been killed, and look at where that would leave us today. And if you really think slavery is abandoned today, you are wrong, that's all I'm going to say on that. But those people have -hope- that they will be freed, and particularly in the sex slave trade in the western world, that hope has kept many women alive, and yes, lots are freed.
I think you misunderstood my point on slavery. I wasn't saying that slavery
had been abandoned, I was saying that it
would be abandoned if slaves no longer had hope. It would be ecenomically unviable, what with the high rates of suicide and murder/suicide that would occur in the slave population.
Quote from: Kai Wren
Hope is what keeps humans going in the direst of situations, hope is the glimmer of spirit that keeps people struggling on despite the most dire circumstances. Hope is what makes those mountaineers who chew through their own arm to get away, or those citizens who rise up against the evil empire, or whatever, act.
A wise tactician knows to always leave an avenue of escape for his enemies, for a soldier with no hope of survival is a much more dangerous foe.