One of the pillars of growing up in the modern day Fairy Tale life is the notion of 'following your heart.'
This seems to correspond roughly to following hunches.
Follow your hunches even in the face of adversity.
Follow your hunches when the people around you are heading one direction, but there is something telling you to head in the other.
But what do you do if 'following your heart' consists of going against the very system that advised you to follow your heart?
LOL
Go ahead and ask them.
It's fun to hear people back pedal.
"Well, that's not exactly what we meant, honey."
In the Fairy Tale books, they didn't put stipulations on the whimsy.
"Follow your heart unless it entails dismantling the destructive society of which you are a part. If that situation arises, please stop following your heart, and just follow these simple rules..."
Oops.
I read something somewhere some time (for some reason I think it was McLuhan) that detailed the notion that it would be eventually calamitous for a society to raise their children with images of super heroes and then expect them to obediently ease into a button-pushing desk job.
How are you gonna grow up admiring those figures that didn't go down easy, and then end up being the type of person that goes down easy?
LOMFL
WELL...
I guess liquor and drugs help snuff this out.
The curse of resilient able-bodied youth works against a lot of people, as there seems to be a constant 'do it tomorrow' mentality - WHICH DOES MAKE SENSE for the most part, until (- again LOL -) KABOOM all the caffeine and cigarettes and fast food turn a person into a soft, neurotic - albeit sharp-witted - person with little agility.
These elements help break people down into becoming the type that go down easy.
That's beside the main point here.
The point is that there are situations where people will advise you to go against the advice that they themselves gave you.
Yeah, read that again.
They will give you heroic advice today - that age old wisdom.
The rallying cry.
But sometimes a person is a part of the problem that the wisdom would seek to alleviate.
giggle giggle giggle
Irony
On the old 'do as I say, not as I do' mentality.
People get into these situations.
The student finds out that his teacher was in the thick of all the bad shit that he was preaching against.
The student loves his teacher, but...
There is another side to this - the exploration of 'when does somebody know they are really right, or if they are just nuts'
This is the territory we get into when we talk about people with a subversive point of view 'becoming organized'
"What makes you so sure you are right?"
Well...
Perhaps its not so much a matter of knowing when you are right, but being in a position to react when you recognize that something is wrong.
The days of being able to 'get away with something' are coming to a end - even for those who are either ignorant of their misdeeds, or seek to cover them up by preaching words that sound right.
That goes for me too.
If you see me doing wrong...
Please, by all means...
srsly
I think you are probably on the right track to being really right if you question if you are. Self-correcting systems ftw. Its like thinking for yourself, only the people who ever question if they themselves are doing it are probably doing it.
As for following your heart or a hunch, that works great on a tactical or small scale level. I've probably avoided losing my eyes, kidneys and various apendages many times by going on a hunch. But it sucks on a strategic level. Strategy is all about actualizing your goals and strategy may be motivated by morals, but its done as cold as you can be.
Quote from: Cain on December 04, 2006, 12:32:43 AM
Strategy is all about actualizing your goals and strategy may be motivated by morals, but its done as cold as you can be.
to be referred to as 'tough love'
maybe that takes the most 'heart'
(whatever the hell that means)
I don't know, still, if this 'honorable hunch' thing of yours is spot-on, LHX. I mean, I LIKE the idea of people knowing inherently within themselves some notion of right and wrong, but then I've seen too much real-time brainwashing for that to be 100% the case for me.
One man's right is another man's slide through morality into a dark pit of immoral corruption. One man's wrong is another man's glorification and defication of all that is shiny and good in humanity.
How do you justify telling someone to knock it the fuck off, when they feel they are well within their rights to do what they are doing in the first place? There are sooo many gray areas in the world.
I'm not, of course, talking about murder/rape/child abuse. For some reason, those are sacrosanct sacred cows that I won't touch morally, though there are plenty of gray areas within.
But it didn't seem as if you were talking about the big 3. It seemed like you were talking about everyday situations. If you were talking about those, then I can get into them. Like selling children into marriage at the age of 10/11/12 years, or killing your brother for raping and murdering your wife. There are plenty of grays within those black/whites.
However, the notion of right vs. wrong is too miasmic for most people when they pull themselves apart from their environment. I'm not sure the "hunch" is a hunch at all but rather a conditioned response by trained stimuli, reacting not to impulse but rather to what you've been "trained" to expect yourself to do.
This to me varies on an individual basis...*shrug* But I do think morality is a more taught phenomenon. If you ARE one of these people who's thought you've turned AWAY from the hunches taught and have a more instinctive response system to life in general, I'd posit that was more in your head than in reality. Jungle law does not make for a very social being in a post-post modern world. But that's just my theory, any way. I could be wrong.
Quote from: Jenne on December 04, 2006, 04:40:01 AM
I don't know, still, if this 'honorable hunch' thing of yours is spot-on, LHX. I mean, I LIKE the idea of people knowing inherently within themselves some notion of right and wrong, but then I've seen too much real-time brainwashing for that to be 100% the case for me.
i cannot really identify where i wrote anything about depending on other people to be honorable
it was more a question of how a person handles going against the grain
ie - when you perceive something wrong when everybody else says its right
Quote from: Jenne
One man's right is another man's slide through morality into a dark pit of immoral corruption. One man's wrong is another man's glorification and defication of all that is shiny and good in humanity.
Quote from: LHX
The days of being able to 'get away with something' are coming to a end - even for those who are either ignorant of their misdeeds, or seek to cover them up by preaching words that sound right.
Quote from: Jenne
How do you justify telling someone to knock it the fuck off, when they feel they are well within their rights to do what they are doing in the first place? There are sooo many gray areas in the world.
you justify telling them to fuck off when they are negatively disturbing you unnecessarily (destructively)
i like the color gray, but there isnt much in there
Quote from: Jenne
I'm not, of course, talking about murder/rape/child abuse. For some reason, those are sacrosanct sacred cows that I won't touch morally, though there are plenty of gray areas within.
But it didn't seem as if you were talking about the big 3. It seemed like you were talking about everyday situations. If you were talking about those, then I can get into them. Like selling children into marriage at the age of 10/11/12 years, or killing your brother for raping and murdering your wife. There are plenty of grays within those black/whites.
However, the notion of right vs. wrong is too miasmic for most people when they pull themselves apart from their environment. I'm not sure the "hunch" is a hunch at all but rather a conditioned response by trained stimuli, reacting not to impulse but rather to what you've been "trained" to expect yourself to do.
This to me varies on an individual basis...*shrug* But I do think morality
morality?
who said anything about that?
from a certain perspective, there is abusive and non-abusive
how a person gets there is really of little consequence after a while
forget right and wrong
its a matter of acting in a way that endures vs acting in a way that destroys
theres not much subjectivity there
build things that endure, destroy things that are destructive
right and wrong is so 20th Century
Quote from: LHX on December 03, 2006, 11:59:32 PM
But what do you do if 'following your heart' consists of going against the very system that advised you to follow your heart?
I know you've posited this before in some of your writings, but, what do you do if "following your heart" consists of going against they system, and scaring the ever loving bejeezus out of the ones you love and makes them question your mental stability.
Seriously.
You grow up in a family, that unknowingly has become part of The System. They've operated within it, most likely unknowingly, as long as they've been coherent enough to operate in any capacity.
Eventually, you go to college, you become educated/brainwashed/whatever, and then, it happens. Maybe it isn'an aha moment, but, you begin to realize what you've been living in , amongst, etc.
Meanwhile, you've developed this family, with this person you love dearly, maybe you've created another life. You know the way things are just aren't acceptable. Do you share that with your family? Do you keep it to yourself and go under the radar?
I think about this a lot.
It can be kind of depressing sometimes......
thoughts???
Quote from: LHX on December 04, 2006, 05:14:39 AM
Quote from: Jenne on December 04, 2006, 04:40:01 AM
I don't know, still, if this 'honorable hunch' thing of yours is spot-on, LHX. I mean, I LIKE the idea of people knowing inherently within themselves some notion of right and wrong, but then I've seen too much real-time brainwashing for that to be 100% the case for me.
i cannot really identify where i wrote anything about depending on other people to be honorable
it was more a question of how a person handles going against the grain
ie - when you perceive something wrong when everybody else says its right
Quote from: Jenne
One man's right is another man's slide through morality into a dark pit of immoral corruption. One man's wrong is another man's glorification and defication of all that is shiny and good in humanity.
Quote from: LHX
The days of being able to 'get away with something' are coming to a end - even for those who are either ignorant of their misdeeds, or seek to cover them up by preaching words that sound right.
Quote from: Jenne
How do you justify telling someone to knock it the fuck off, when they feel they are well within their rights to do what they are doing in the first place? There are sooo many gray areas in the world.
you justify telling them to fuck off when they are negatively disturbing you unnecessarily (destructively)
i like the color gray, but there isnt much in there
Quote from: Jenne
I'm not, of course, talking about murder/rape/child abuse. For some reason, those are sacrosanct sacred cows that I won't touch morally, though there are plenty of gray areas within.
But it didn't seem as if you were talking about the big 3. It seemed like you were talking about everyday situations. If you were talking about those, then I can get into them. Like selling children into marriage at the age of 10/11/12 years, or killing your brother for raping and murdering your wife. There are plenty of grays within those black/whites.
However, the notion of right vs. wrong is too miasmic for most people when they pull themselves apart from their environment. I'm not sure the "hunch" is a hunch at all but rather a conditioned response by trained stimuli, reacting not to impulse but rather to what you've been "trained" to expect yourself to do.
This to me varies on an individual basis...*shrug* But I do think morality
morality?
who said anything about that?
from a certain perspective, there is abusive and non-abusive
how a person gets there is really of little consequence after a while
forget right and wrong
its a matter of acting in a way that endures vs acting in a way that destroys
theres not much subjectivity there
build things that endure, destroy things that are destructive
right and wrong is so 20th Century
You were saying that people were to stop you if you were "doing wrong" and the person was to judge based on whether or not they were doing "right." I picked the words right out of your piece up there.
Also, creativity and destruction are fraternal twins. How does THAT solve what you are talking about, then?
I really don't think the "going against the grain" is as large of a problem if you DO have that internal judgment system down pat. If you constantly question yourself within your given or chosen environment, then you have an issue with it. If it's OTHERS who are questioning you, then it's their OWN judgment system that's in play here, not yours.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 04, 2006, 02:02:50 PM
Meanwhile, you've developed this family, with this person you love dearly, maybe you've created another life. You know the way things are just aren't acceptable. Do you share that with your family? Do you keep it to yourself and go under the radar?
In this situation I've been able to practice adapting the things that I say to appeal to a typical audience. I try discussing my point of view in a way that, while not always convincing, still broadens the perspective of the people that hear. I consider my family a kind of test audience. It's comforting to think they'll still love me at the end of the discussion. Plus, my family has known for a long time that I have to do things differently than most. Of course, not having kids I don't have to worry about doing any brainwashing of my own, but I would view it as my duty to teach them about the world from my perspective, if only to provide necessary tools for being able to form their own opinions, instead of being ruled by rhetoric.
The important thing is to gauge your audience. Only engage in discussion if there is the consideration of each other's viewpoints, because if you're talking to a wall it's not going to do much good anyway. Once they're listening, back up your conjectures with examples that are tangible, which brings the importance and reality of the issues to the front, otherwise you sound like a kook. Also, one of my biggest issues with persuasive discussions is to keep the presence of mind to realize when meaningful dialog becomes beating a dead horse. At some point you might have to re-evaluate the benefit of continuing the conversation.
I say, Share your viewpoints with the family, but do it intelligently, and with love. You can't push a rope.
Yeah. Thanksgiving was an interesting experience. I was asked my views on things, and I had to walk the tightrope of getting my views expressed while not being dismissed as "wacky".
Back to the original post, I think that not being allowed to live up to the hero model just reflects the hypocrisy of humanity, as well as reinforcing idea of lowered expectations. But then, isn't fictional entertainment supposed to showcase the Ideal? It works off of suspension of disbelief, but it took me a while to figure out I needed a grain of salt
Quote from: LMNO on December 05, 2006, 02:16:58 PM
Yeah.  Thanksgiving was an interesting experience.  I was asked my views on things, and I had to walk the tightrope of getting my views expressed while not being dismissed as "wacky".
I 'came out' as a gay person once, at a family do. Was kinda interesting to see the reactions, from patronisingly accepting and supportive to 'how can you justify being gay' kinda attacks. I think my mum was the most disappointed. About 3 months later when she found out I'd only been kidding. She was very proud of her gay son and had gone round telling all her friends about it.
BAMP
In 2006, PD walked into Chapel Perilous.
Ten years later, only a handful are left to tell the tale.
"right and wrong is so 20th Century"
Quote from: Marcus woop woop AureliusLive a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
I complain about my job all the time, and my girlfriend says I should find a job I love - and I dismiss that as naivety.
I feel what LHX said there, about how maybe feeding children superhero narratives for years and years will lead to adults that never feel they're living up to their potential.
Tyler Durden, in his preacher voice, says that we were raised thinking we'd be rock stars and now we're not, and we're very angry.
I'm not angry. I accept it. And that acceptance is the smoke of my youthful immortality burning away, the smoke rising up to the sky only 50 feet above our heads and just hanging there, a formless cloud.
I'm talking to this kid in #discord (http://principiadiscordia.com/irc/) and he says we should all quit our jobs and live on a commune and reject capitalism and all that crap we used to care about when we were complete fucking dipshits. I tell him he's full of shit and I get a stabbing headache as I type it.
I don't know how to feel about it.
I had that break in... oh yeah, 2005-2006. Huh. Funny that.
I had this realization that I was living a fantasy narrative in my head that had slowly become more divorced from experiential reality as time went on. "Tomorrow" became "never" as windows closed, and contexts shifted.
While my life became more "typical" (job, wife, doctors visits), at the same time, I became a lot happier (love, support, health, security).
QuoteI feel what LHX said there, about how maybe feeding children superhero narratives for years and years will lead to adults that never feel they're living up to their potential.
Tyler Durden, in his preacher voice, says that we were raised thinking we'd be rock stars and now we're not, and we're very angry.
Like how when
The secret stops working and it can only be your fault. Or how an ethos of individualistic overcoming results in coming last before the world that is positioned over and against it. I'm sure there originally was another meaning to "superman", reminiscent of somehow transcending the human condition, or some kind of limitation it presents. (No, absolutely not transhumanists)
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2016, 08:36:01 PM
I complain about my job all the time, and my girlfriend says I should find a job I love - and I dismiss that as naivety.
I gotta side with her, here.
QuoteI feel what LHX said there, about how maybe feeding children superhero narratives for years and years will lead to adults that never feel they're living up to their potential.
There has never been a time that people felt like they'd lived up to their potential. In fact, it's only very recently that we felt we HAD potential.
Quote
I'm talking to this kid in #discord (http://principiadiscordia.com/irc/) and he says we should all quit our jobs and live on a commune and reject capitalism and all that crap we used to care about when we were complete fucking dipshits. I tell him he's full of shit and I get a stabbing headache as I type it.
I don't know how to feel about it.
I have to agree with you, here.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 06, 2016, 03:21:10 AM
QuoteI feel what LHX said there, about how maybe feeding children superhero narratives for years and years will lead to adults that never feel they're living up to their potential.
There has never been a time that people felt like they'd lived up to their potential. In fact, it's only very recently that we felt we HAD potential.
I don't know about the recentness of the common man believing in "potential," at least in children. There's a reason a lot of fairy tales focus on secret princesses or plucky young anonymous lads from the streets. Sure, you're a smelly dirt farmer from a family of impoverished smelly dirt farmers, but maybe you're *really* a princess who had to be hidden from her family because of an evil witch, or maybe you're the boy who will kill giants!
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 06, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 06, 2016, 03:21:10 AM
QuoteI feel what LHX said there, about how maybe feeding children superhero narratives for years and years will lead to adults that never feel they're living up to their potential.
There has never been a time that people felt like they'd lived up to their potential. In fact, it's only very recently that we felt we HAD potential.
I don't know about the recentness of the common man believing in "potential," at least in children. There's a reason a lot of fairy tales focus on secret princesses or plucky young anonymous lads from the streets. Sure, you're a smelly dirt farmer from a family of impoverished smelly dirt farmers, but maybe you're *really* a princess who had to be hidden from her family because of an evil witch, or maybe you're the boy who will kill giants!
Oh its surely not a recent thing. Try this for size
QuoteEcclesiastes 1:9New International Version (NIV)
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
As witness the cases of
King David, insignificant shepherd boy kills Giant
Moses in the bullrushes - smelly dirt farmer's son becomes Egyptian prince,
or the real biggie Illegitimate son of an elderly carpenter and the young girl he is betrothed to becomes the Son of God.
Yep, ain't nothing new under the sun
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 06, 2016, 03:21:10 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2016, 08:36:01 PM
I complain about my job all the time, and my girlfriend says I should find a job I love - and I dismiss that as naivety.
I gotta side with her, here.
Yeah I struggle with all of this.
My goal is to live comfortably.
The jobs which would really stimulate me will not pay for that.
I keep thinking about how I should probably get my Masters degree so that one day I can afford to put a kid or two through college, but when I look at the choices, I'm staring at something like Project Management which feels like it will leech all the moisture right out of my soul.
I figure - most people have a job they tolerate in order to live well outside of it.
If I had a job I loved, would it be worth sacrificing vacations and nice meals in restaurants?
These are the dangers of modern living.
Oh, no, wait, we're the good guys!
Quote from: Cramulus on May 06, 2016, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 06, 2016, 03:21:10 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2016, 08:36:01 PM
I complain about my job all the time, and my girlfriend says I should find a job I love - and I dismiss that as naivety.
I gotta side with her, here.
Yeah I struggle with all of this.
My goal is to live comfortably.
The jobs which would really stimulate me will not pay for that.
I keep thinking about how I should probably get my Masters degree so that one day I can afford to put a kid or two through college, but when I look at the choices, I'm staring at something like Project Management which feels like it will leech all the moisture right out of my soul.
I figure - most people have a job they tolerate in order to live well outside of it.
If I had a job I loved, would it be worth sacrificing vacations and nice meals in restaurants?
These are the dangers of modern living.
Project management can be very rewarding if you hate people.
TGRR,
Isn't kidding.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 07, 2016, 02:58:07 AM
Quote from: LuciferX on May 07, 2016, 02:30:08 AM
Oh, no, wait, we're the good guys!
Insects unseen.
(http://i.imgur.com/whwrKap.jpg)
(Moebius, I think)
Because I can't see the image you posted :\