Okay, I will be the campagne bottle for this sub-forum.
I want to discuss the topic of family. I brought this up in LHX's excellent post in 'Or Kill Me' and I think it's a topic worth discussing in the context of BIP, et al.
How do you reconcile family and BIP.
I'll use myself as an example.
I grew up in a fairly conservative Baptist family. The rest of my kin are all pretty religious and devout. Additionally, we all grew up in a fairly isolated part of the world. It really is a "Cleaver" mentality up there. Or, at least it was.
And now, I'm raising a family of my own. I love this new family and I very much love my parents and the family up north. And I feel, I could never, ever, share with them my thoughts and feelings and ideology as I've expressed them here. I think the ideas we've bantered about here and in other parts would absolutely scare them. Not so much the ideas themselves, but that I have those ideas and think about them, with others. I really think my family would view this as some weirdo cult like Jonestown.
So, is it a matter of going it alone in a sense? Trying to advance change, in a minimalist way, but leaving my family out of it? Do I risk freaking them out by trying to get them hip to what is "really" going on? Does anyone else struggle with this?
No one in my family undeerstands my ways of thinking, including my wife.
But I can get through to my dad sometimes, if I use almost purely scientific language.
Mostly, I keep my thoughts to myself, but I do speak quite often about where my thoughts lead me.
Last night, I realized that my use of the meme "barstool" is just about equivalent to my Scientologist brother's use of the meme "reactive mind".
Both are metaphors for some other phenomenon, and no one knows what the fuck it means, outside fo a small social circle.
I'm not sure if this has any relevance to this thread, but it's early and I don't want to do any work.
I'll go a step further. I don't really have much in the way of family (my dad was an orphan, and I only like two people on my mom's side of the family - her and my cousin who lives with her), so I've always considered my close friends to be my "real" family. Now, it has never occured to me to pick my friends based on their ideology or their politics, so I've got a pretty diverse collection of "family". These are the people I have chosen to be that close to, people I have always been able to talk to about anything and who have always been able to talk to me without fear of judgement...
...and they would probably hang me from a streetlight if they knew what I really thought about the world.
Now, most of these people think of themselves as being very liberal/progressive/open-minded/etc. (though oddly enough, the ones that fall more towards the conservative end of the spectrum seem to be more open to my way of thinking - I think they just like the conspiracy theory stuff and don't recognize it for the mental excersize I take it to be.) Most of them think they "get it". And yet, even these people (who are more like me than 99% of the rest of the world) recoil in absolute terror any time I attempt to make even the tiniest chink in their mental armor, even though I've always been relatively good at chipping through those shells without doing too much damage.
I don't know if I have a point here, but it strikes me as odd (and borderline tragic) that even the people who should be most sympathetic to our ideas and most likely to understand what the fuck it is I'm on about would probably rather choke me to death with their own hand than actually allow themselves to start dropping filters.
So what do we do about this? or can we do anything at all?
I think if I were to start talking barstools with my wife she'd just stare at me in wonder.  Like, "I wonder what the hell is wrong with him."  And the thing is, I think, strike that, I know she has some of the same thoughts, she just doesn't piece them together the same way I do.  
I think part of it is a Parental Instinct.  Consciously, or subconsciously, she couldn't afford to think subversively.  She has to be "normal" for our daughter.  I wrestle with that too.  My wife accepts me as, "Weird" or "Strange."  Hell, if I had been a normal shmoe I don't think she would have ever gone out with me.  
And I also accept that I have to give in to certain societal constructs if I want my daughter to co-exist in the society into which she is growing.  Like, I can't leave BIP pamphlets at the Christian Daycare that she attends.  
But then, when it comes to my biological family, my parents and siblings, it's another bowl of wax just because they grew up in bumbfuck, Maine where all "Weirds" are somehow blasphemous.  
I thought everyone from Maine was batshit crazy to start with.
I had to explain the Barstool to my wife, because she's essentially a walking barstool, when it comes to me.
She takes the "what the fuck are you on about?" to a whole new level.
I have a feeling that, since breaking the filters and chains is such a traumatic experience, that it really can only be done to strangers. Maybe.
heh. I knew I'd found the girl I wanted to marry when I utterly shattered her filters one day (mostly by accident - I lost my temper in an argument and shouted out the horrible truth before I realized it).
she spent about a half-hour on the floor, weeping and banging her head into the wall in mourning for her worldview, then popped right back up and demanded to know how she could help me do that to everyone else.
Quote from: LMNO on December 04, 2006, 03:26:39 PM
I thought everyone from Maine was batshit crazy to start with.
They are.  It gets worse when you get into the real hinterlands of Washington and Aroostook Counties.  It's pretty much Appalachia without the mountains.  
And I think you're right in your last line.  It's easier when you don't have to go home to the person or if you aren't going to see them during Holidays, and so on.  It's like you can drop the bombs and run, sort of speak.  Friendly Fire is a different matter.
I saw some kind of metaphorical light. I tried to explain it to everyone, especially my family. They locked me up and injected me with chemicals. Especially my family. I learned to keep my mouth shut after the second time this happened. Maybe the mind unlocks with a magic word. Maybe it's a different one for each person. If so I don't know it. No one ever showed me I had to find it out myself. Now and again people will ask me something. I'll think real hard before I answer. If they aint ready to hear the truth they won't hear it.
good point.
never underestimate the lengths your family will go to to "protect" you from yourself.
But don't forget to keep in mind that you actually ming be mentally unstable.
LMNO,
Who's schizoid brother believed that Tupac was trying to kill him, while he was hanging out with ODB (RIP).
as the days go by a lot of us are going to be in varying degrees of discomfort and will find sadness at not being able to reach or be reached by loved ones
just a hunch
i got more to say on this in a second
i do / have struggled with this
but it seems that there are worse things than rejection and isolation
(not many tho - looks like it ranks #3 at the lowest on the list of bad things - altho some people have it ranked at #1)
Quote from: LMNO on December 04, 2006, 05:38:05 PM
But don't forget to keep in mind that you actually ming be mentally unstable.
I'm not as unstable as I used to be but I am completely and utterly insane by normal definition. The trick is hiding this when I'm around those cursed with the affliction that is sanity.
Good luck with that.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 04, 2006, 07:48:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 04, 2006, 05:38:05 PM
But don't forget to keep in mind that you actually ming be mentally unstable.
I'm not as unstable as I used to be but I am completely and utterly insane by normal definition. The trick is hiding this when I'm around those cursed with the affliction that is sanity.
unless you are damaged goods I would not call you insane even by normal definition. I hate the way so many people on the net say they are insane. of all the people I know there is only two I would call insane, one who tried to rape a dog and braught a gun and threatened the nerd soc I was in called the guild, the other showed me a video of a woman being raped through a cut in her throat till she died.
Being unbalanced emotionally does not make you insane, hell I have been seeing colours and stuff thats not there as well as hearing shit thats not there and I still consider myself sane because I am capable of mostly cohesive thought as are you, flying off the handle occasionally is not insanity.
My mother is the only parent who I talk to, and though she would not understand alot of the stuff I talk about, she trusts my judgement. I have worked through all issues of her being my parent as an authority and a personal figure, I have come to terms with her mortality and my own, the last thing that I had to come to terms with was how at my age she gave birth to me,
and that she chose the life of a parent then and effectively ended her escapades and sense of adventure. Its unfortunate but I make up for it by doing my best to be a figure that she can talk to when she needs and reassure her she has raised an decent(not by normal standards) son.
I also intend in a few years to give her the money to go traveling, and I hope she meets someone because I dont like her being alone.
My father... to be honest he was an absentee figure, while my brother suffered by this and holds great hero worship for older men(kinda like some of the stuff roger gets in his threads), I myself have had no need of an older figure to guide me I like to solve stuff myself, as a child I never really thought about him either, I was very shallow self absorbed and apathetic towards the world (nothings changed I guess).
my fathers side is french/itallien - norman/italien if you want to be really correct
mother side is french/irish - though me and my mother never new her biological grandfather (despite the fact my grandmother had 3 kids with him)
I lived with fathers side of the family all my life
my mothers kind of a ditz - don't know her that well
but get along with her very well
my father worked all the time
get along with him fine - hes a big roman history buff - :-)
I was raised by my grandparents (fathers parents)
my grandfathers really cool
expecially when he drinks and tells his bullshit stories
person in my family im closest too is my little sister
I would bail her out of any situation she finds herself into
helped raised her when she was a baby and i was like five
im little overprotective - and still call her my "baby sister" either though shes older then many of you here
No one has ever REALLY understood me, so if I expound on things Discordian-like, it's all the same "Just Jenne Gibberish" to them, anyway.
My husband, funny enough, has lived in a sort of chaotic order himself, so he probably understood this stuff almost before I was born. *shrug* I'm not sure how much he believes, but he does follow along with a BIP tautology all on his own. He himself, though, believes too much in his own powers to break out, and I think he has yet to follow the logic straight into how much of an iron prison it really is. Though, truth be told, you come from the depths of Hell like he has, and you have some bragging rights to be sure.
Myself, I don't worry about if someone understands me or not. I've spent so much of my life caring if I'm understood that I've realized that it's virtually impossible, so I give as much as I think others WILL understand and leave it at that. Otherwise, people are just turned off, mostly because it's coming from me, and they'll prejudge the message based on the messenger (I'm talking about friends and family here, not strangers/acquaintances). I haven't toed the line that I grew up behind for so long that no one really expects me to live or speak within their memes any longer.
Quote from: faust on December 04, 2006, 11:52:20 PM
I hate the way so many people on the net say they are insane.
Yeah me too. Buncha fkin wannabe's. Insane for me is being locked up in an insane assylum, pumped full of largactyl and haliperidol, hallucinating and ranting and freaking out, like on an acid trip but for real. Unbalaced was what got me that perspective. Now that I've (for the most part) redressed the balance - I'm not deranged anymore but I still have the perspective. I can still explore insanity. That's insane to me. I earned it. People who wear odd coloured socks because it makes others think they're eccentric and refer to themselves as insane have no fucking idea what insane means.
Well put, I wonder how many over at MW consider themselves insane?
Who the fuck cares?
I'm re-jacking this.
If we can't explain/defend ourselves to our family, how can we expect to get the word to the larger population?
well
seeing as we were forced to come together in the first place, it suggests that other people would need to find themselves under similar pressure
added to which - there is also the aspect that those closest to you are least likely to listen
about all a person can do is stick to their guns and let their ways and actions speak for themself in this situation
and if we continue producing innovative creative material and our intentions are seen, it seems that the tide will shift eventually
in relation to family - the worst they can do is outcast you and reject you, and that has already happened to some people
so the next step is to move forward
forgiveness + wrath = teh win
Speaking of which, LHX-- I just wanted to side-track this and say:
Go here
http://earfatigue.multiply.com/music/item/75
Listen to beats.
Choose one, and write Appropriate Lyrics, preferably not about how cool you are, how much money you have, or about bitches.
LMNO
-using a threadjack to get Operation DiscordianMediaAssault started.
OMFG!!! THREADJACKER!!!!
kidding of course.
Please to be posting any results so that we may listen to them.
Well, step 2 is to get one of you computer geeks to create a video for it, and then beating YouTube to death with it.
I may be able to help with that. It will depend on timing, etc., I did some video work in a brief stint in a former life.
Quote from: LMNO on December 05, 2006, 12:55:06 PM
If we can't explain/defend ourselves to our family, how can we expect to get the word to the larger population?
We can't. We can only ever make sense to minority of enlightened or on-the-verge individuals, hidden in the flock. Doesn't mean we should give up tho.
Quote from: LMNO on December 05, 2006, 12:55:06 PM
If we can't explain/defend ourselves to our family, how can we expect to get the word to the larger population?
who cares... really
Perhaps this is just me but i never felt the need to explain myself to others
i find i "connect" with people more when i let others be themselves and dont try to understand their motives, only try to understand their actions
either that or i have to get more then five hours of sleep a night
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on December 05, 2006, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 05, 2006, 12:55:06 PM
If we can't explain/defend ourselves to our family, how can we expect to get the word to the larger population?
who cares... really
Perhaps this is just me but i never felt the need to explain myself to others
i find i "connect" with people more when i let others be themselves and dont try to understand their motives, only try to understand their actions
either that or i have to get more then five hours of sleep a night
IAWTC
Quote from: LMNO on December 05, 2006, 01:29:46 PM
Speaking of which, LHX-- I just wanted to side-track this and say:
Go here
http://earfatigue.multiply.com/music/item/75
Listen to beats.
Choose one, and write Appropriate Lyrics, preferably not about how cool you are, how much money you have, or about bitches.
LMNO
-using a threadjack to get Operation DiscordianMediaAssault started.
signal acknowledged
co-ordinates plotted
ETA TBD
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on December 05, 2006, 12:19:29 AM
my fathers side is french/itallien - norman/italien if you want to be really correct
mother side is french/irish - though me and my mother never new her biological grandfather (despite the fact my grandmother had 3 kids with him)
I lived with fathers side of the family all my life
my mothers kind of a ditz - don't know her that well
but get along with her very well
my father worked all the time
get along with him fine - hes a big roman history buff - :-)
I was raised by my grandparents (fathers parents)
my grandfathers really cool
expecially when he drinks and tells his bullshit stories
person in my family im closest too is my little sister
I would bail her out of any situation she finds herself into
helped raised her when she was a baby and i was like five
im little overprotective - and still call her my "baby sister" either though shes older then many of you here
but the question is, what would their reaction be if you "came out of the closet" about your clearly dangerous and irrational discordian mindset?
my dad laughs says "thats cool"
my mom shakes her head in blonde confusion
grandmother says thats stupid
grandfather laughts
sister says "your sooo crazy"
so really no negative reaction really
my family is really kind of understanding (<--- hate that word but best word I could think of)
as for if they would actually understand what im talking about
or relate to it - probably not - and as i said before ive never been one to care
I find that family is not who you are related to, but the people who love and care for you, support you, not what they think is you. Many times these people may be related to you, but just as often they are not. In my fortune the family that is related to me is understanding, and the family that is not are like minded. Some of whom occasionally inhabit these forums.
This is kinda what ECH put out there, but I just wanted to put in my $.02
I agree with that totally. I'm related to alot of assholes that I don't like, so I decided to choose my real family for myself, and alot of them seem to get what I'm talking about to some degree, whether they agree with it or not.
We made a list of holiday cards we wanted to send out. Basically, it broke out this way:
My family
Her family
Her college friends
Her Boston friends
See a pattern? Yeah, while I'm friendly with her Boston friends, they aren't really "my" friends.
All I got are pixels on the screen. Damn, sometimes I wish I wasn't ECH's alt.
How do you think I feel?
I'm real and I have to resort to talking to imaginary friends to achieve some sense of human connection and mutual understanding.
It's like jerking off, but without the messy fun part.
I personally don't really have to worry about my family. They are agnostic central/left wingers who have traveled alot and done and pretty much encouraged me to do my own thing and figure out stuff for myself. I haven't really told them about Discordianism per se, though I've frequently bought up Discordian viewpoints and talked them out.
With me, its more my friends and in particular girlfriends. A couple have taken an interest, but the ones I most expected to were just not interested. The problem is, many of them are what you might call the new left, the sort of people those on the right of the political spectrum like to rant about. And if you bring up any seperate viewpoint to theirs then you are automatically wrong - just like with most ideologues. Which has kind of strained things now and again.
Kind of like with ECH, my experience with my girlfriend was quite odd and more than just a little upsetting. I felt a real heel for a while, because I had basically torn down her perception of how the world really worked and shown her something she had put trust in was not worthy of that. It was necessary at the time, not only for her but me too, but that didn't exactly make me feel better about what I did.
hold on yo
so this warm glow coming out of the monitor -- that isnt love??
fuck
now im fucked
And no reacharound
Family is good as long as you pick your spouse very carefully.
Thank you Dr. Phil.