Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 04:40:52 PM

Title: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 04:40:52 PM
Talk about Black Iron Prisons

on the one hand people are scared of the unknown

on the other hand people are chasing illusionary goals


this cycle perpetuates itself as people run away from what they fear and run toward what they desire, never escaping or fulfilling except for in short-term stimulating experiences


meanwhile, the unknown has done nothing to warrant it being something worth fearing
and it has already been established that everything we could possibly want/need is well within reach on this planet


the only way out of that loop is to eventually be crushed by it
or
to literally bust out of it


to bust out the loop / prison - a person needs to recognize it
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: DJRubberducky on December 06, 2006, 04:51:27 PM
The real fun happens when the desire is the source of the fear.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 04:53:28 PM
Examples, please.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: DJRubberducky on December 06, 2006, 04:51:27 PM
The real fun happens when the desire is the source of the fear.

bingo

when fear of blows to the ego, pride and reputation influence a persons decision making process
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:00:55 PM
That's how peer pressure and a lot of "character education" is overtly taught to kids, by the way.

"People won't like you if you ____________."

"Your friends will be mad if you __________."

etc.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 05:06:49 PM
Whoa, childhood flashback. 
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:08:07 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:00:55 PM
That's how peer pressure and a lot of "character education" is overtly taught to kids, by the way.

"People won't like you if you ____________."

"Your friends will be mad if you __________."

etc.

Jenne, nobody is going to like you if you keep making posts like that.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 05:11:50 PM
That's ok, nobody likes her anyway.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:12:44 PM
Heh.  Too late there.  But thanks.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:13:02 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 05:11:50 PM
That's ok, nobody likes her anyway.

See? 

:lol:
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:14:04 PM
great

thread ruined


there goes my reputation
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: DJRubberducky on December 06, 2006, 05:17:08 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 04:53:28 PM
Examples, please.
Okay, example of desire producing fear:

I'm polyamorous.  Mostly polyfidelity, but I doubt that means anything to anyone here other than me.

Anyway, one of my lovers isn't currently in any sort of primary relationship.  He's okay with how things are between him and me, and the understanding is that if he gets himself into a "real" relationship with someone not into sharing, then he and I aren't an item anymore.

Absolutely reasonable, yes?  But it puts me into one of these loops: Because I love him, I want to spend that kind of time with him because I enjoy it, and we enjoy each other.  But also because I love him, I don't want to spend that kind of time with him because it means he hasn't found anybody yet, and wishing to see him again also means wishing that.

I don't guess I'm trapped in the loop yet (anymore?), because I can make tentative plans and look forward to next times without being paralyzed by the fear (and most of the fear I experience is paralyzing - I'm that kind of unstable).  And more often than not, I can take a deep breath and remind myself that he makes his own choices, and if for some insanely stupid reason he's putting off finding his own relationship because that probably means not getting to see me anymore, that's his "fault" and not mine.  But it's been very interesting to watch my own thoughts over the last six months.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 05:19:28 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 06, 2006, 04:40:52 PM


this cycle perpetuates itself as people run away from what they fear and run toward what they desire, never escaping or fulfilling except for in short-term stimulating experiences


This, by the way, perfectly explains my relationship before I met my wife.  I was running away from a fear of being alone and not having a family while running towards a desire to be with someone with whom to share intimacy and love.  So, yup, there were some short-term stimulating experiences, but the whole of the exprience was leading me down a path that was destructive.  

Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:22:27 PM
DJR, that's a great example.  Kudos for the brass balls in making it so personal, as well.

I think the main problem is the contingency on someone else's judgments and reactions to your own decisions and actions.  When you rely that heavily on someone else for your own happiness/progression through life in general, you've got a problem that you cannot solve on your own.

Except to break free of that contingency.

ETA:  speaking generally here above, not just about DJR's example.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 05:27:13 PM
Except Jenne, you run into the classic:  The Fear of being rejected, and the Desire to be accepted.

Be it love, sex, or any act of creation, you run into this all the time.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:29:43 PM
You  just have to ignore that.  It's a conditioned response, anyway.  I won't mention the sociopathy involved to get to that stage, however.

Maybe just being aware of how tied you are to others' reactions to you, as equally fucked up as our own are, is part of the answer.  *has no answers, just bulshitting here, obviously*
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:37:22 PM
lets ride that train of thought for a second here tho

because thats the type of shit that crashes


a lot of groups come together out of that desire to be accepted
but
over the past months (/years) we have determined on these forums that there is another reason for people to come together:

they come together when they are in the process of getting something done

because there is some people here (and in some other places) that do not express any fear of being rejected or desire to be accepted


i gotta think about this for a second
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 05:41:25 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:29:43 PM
You  just have to ignore that.  It's a conditioned response, anyway.  I won't mention the sociopathy involved to get to that stage, however.

Srsly?  Because isn't that what the compassion and sympathy in a marriage/relationship is all about?  If you don't give a shit about what your husband thinks about you, and your husband doesn't give a shit about what you think, then why the fuck are you two together?

QuoteMaybe just being aware of how tied you are to others' reactions to you, as equally fucked up as our own are, is part of the answer.  *has no answers, just bulshitting here, obviously*


That, for me, is one of the lockpicks to the BIP/Machine,Ñ¢.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 05:44:52 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:37:22 PM

because there is some people here (and in some other places) that do not express any fear of being rejected or desire to be accepted


what about the fear of being rejected by this collective?
Or the desire to be accepted by it?

And is one ever totally rid of these fears and desires in general?

I will honestly answer for myself the answer is no.  I like to think I'm a macho, I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks of me kind of person.  But......I have to admit, I do have some level of desire, in this example, for the rest of you to not think I'm a total dunder-head.  I don't lose sleep on it or anything, but there is some level of it there. 
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: DJRubberducky on December 06, 2006, 05:53:33 PM
Also, just because the fear/desire hasn't been expressed doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

In fact, I would venture that those among us who *do* express it tend to get dismissed as "attention whores".  And simply witnessing that act would prompt somebody in that loop to keep quiet on the topic, since they've then seen that expressing the fear/desire will realize the fear.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 05:53:52 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:37:22 PM
there is some people here (and in some other places) that do not express any fear of being rejected or desire to be accepted


i gotta think about this for a second

Internet forums are a good safe place to practice this, no face to face comeback. I find myself posting things then reading it back thinking about how people will respond to this. "Maybe they'll think I'm a fuckhead" pops into my brain from time to time. That's the point where I click the send button and figure "Most of them prolly think I'm a fuckhead anyway. Who gives a shit?" Liberation comes from the realisation that it doesn't matter.

After a while on a forum I usly find I start making friends and shit then I gotta take their feelings into consideration, specifically their feelings toward me." Like I give a shit about what some anonymous text generating organism in some remote corner of the world thinks about me. I usly leave around this point and go find some other bunch of bastards to hang out with.

Sure I want to be accepted but I want to be accepted for who I am and the dumbass shit I stand for. It's the same IRL, short of starting fights I don't really give a toss who I alienate. I got very few friends. None of them are assholes. I'll take quality over quantity every time. The size of my peer group never really interested me. Even at school I used to look at the popular kids and shake my head. If being part of the in-crowd meant I had to dress like that and listen to the shit they played on their walkmans then I was staying the fuck out of it.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 06, 2006, 05:44:52 PM

what about the fear of being rejected by this collective?
Or the desire to be accepted by it?

And is one ever totally rid of these fears and desires in general?

I will honestly answer for myself the answer is no.  I like to think I'm a macho, I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks of me kind of person.  But......I have to admit, I do have some level of desire, in this example, for the rest of you to not think I'm a total dunder-head.  I don't lose sleep on it or anything, but there is some level of it there. 

Attention is attention. Love me or hate me you feed my ego.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:57:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 06, 2006, 05:44:52 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 06, 2006, 05:37:22 PM

because there is some people here (and in some other places) that do not express any fear of being rejected or desire to be accepted


what about the fear of being rejected by this collective?
Or the desire to be accepted by it?

And is one ever totally rid of these fears and desires in general?

I will honestly answer for myself the answer is no.  I like to think I'm a macho, I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks of me kind of person.  But......I have to admit, I do have some level of desire, in this example, for the rest of you to not think I'm a total dunder-head.  I don't lose sleep on it or anything, but there is some level of it there. 

maybe thats one of the benefits to the 'what have you done for me lately' approach to things

seriously tho - currently, i depend on feedback mentally the same way i depend on food physically


plus, this collective (for whatever reason) seems to approach things a bit differently

it seems that anybody who comes in with any type of respect whatsoever is always welcomed into the fold

i wrote more but i accidentally deleted it and now it slipped my mind
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 06:13:47 PM
Troof, though from my perspective, and perhaps others, the intellectual caliber is pretty high.  Could that feed a fear/desire cycle.  Perhaps those who have a desire to join the discourse but so much of a fear of sounding like a mushmouth they do not.  Despite the fact that there does seem to be that air of respectfulness.

So, it's not fear of others shooting you down.  It's fear of you seeing yourself not measuring up. 
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 06:15:08 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 06, 2006, 06:13:47 PM

So, it's not fear of others shooting you down.  It's fear of you seeing yourself not measuring up. 


That's a potentially healthy fear - might lead to self improvement.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 06:20:31 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 06, 2006, 06:13:47 PM
Troof, though from my perspective, and perhaps others, the intellectual caliber is pretty high.  Could that feed a fear/desire cycle.  Perhaps those who have a desire to join the discourse but so much of a fear of sounding like a mushmouth they do not.  Despite the fact that there does seem to be that air of respectfulness.

So, it's not fear of others shooting you down.  It's fear of you seeing yourself not measuring up. 

i guess you might be right

this all feels like digging in ditches, but i can see how the content my be intimidating
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 06:24:13 PM
At the same time though, (the silver lining?) at least they are reading it and getting it. 

Even if they can't make a contribution, buying into it in of itself is a sort of contribution. 

Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 05:41:25 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 05:29:43 PM
You  just have to ignore that.  It's a conditioned response, anyway.  I won't mention the sociopathy involved to get to that stage, however.

Srsly? Because isn't that what the compassion and sympathy in a marriage/relationship is all about? If you don't give a shit about what your husband thinks about you, and your husband doesn't give a shit about what you think, then why the fuck are you two together?

QuoteMaybe just being aware of how tied you are to others' reactions to you, as equally fucked up as our own are, is part of the answer.  *has no answers, just bulshitting here, obviously*


That, for me, is one of the lockpicks to the BIP/Machine,Ñ¢.

Eh, I didn't say we didn't.  But, I also don't hinge my existence on whether or not he thinks my ass is too fat, either.  Striking a midpoint somewhere, I believe, is what I've been after.  I've been with this guy since I was 17, so a lot of the ideas we formed about each other were done about a decade or so ago.

That being said, the purpose for marriage is NOT to sit around judging each other, either.  You give a fuck about what they think, but you don't sit and pick their brain every 5 seconds, either.  *shrug*  I can't describe long term relationships any better than that, I really can't.  It's like any other familial relationship after a while, I guess.  It just is.

I figured that particular lockpick would be somewhat hard-to-get yet infinitely desirable...
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 06:33:14 PM
Quote from: DJRubberducky on December 06, 2006, 05:53:33 PM
Also, just because the fear/desire hasn't been expressed doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

In fact, I would venture that those among us who *do* express it tend to get dismissed as "attention whores". And simply witnessing that act would prompt somebody in that loop to keep quiet on the topic, since they've then seen that expressing the fear/desire will realize the fear.

Have to say that, with this particular group dynamic, I totally agree with you here.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 06:35:16 PM
Jenne, I consider it to be a positive feedback loop.  I care about her opinion, and she cares about mine, so we are aware of how we treat each other, and we do so with respect and compassion.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 06:36:33 PM
That's good, LMNO.  Hopefully you guys will keep that up.

My own marriage is like a well-worn shoe that occasionally gives blisters. 
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 06:37:18 PM
and the implications of the internet continue to emerge

these discussions get intense and cover all angles

me vs me
me vs you
you vs you
we vs we
we vs them
them vs them

all these roles and relationships are starting to mesh together


maybe get a bulletproof helmet to protect the pineal ZOMGLOLWTF
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 06:41:38 PM
There's a subculture here that does go against the usual "positive feedback" loop of your average forum of posters who are likeminded.

However, I'm pretty sure that there are other groups out there who also have this "covert prestige" factor of fitting in through grace of aptitude rather than how well you behave socially.  Ritualistic insults, lackadaisical attitudes towards other's overt prestige factors and other attributes remind me of the "youth culture" that predominated the 90's, actually.  Hip hop, rap, etc. were benchmarks of that period.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 07:02:26 PM
i guess thats one of those 'only time will tell' type deals

i still do participate in Hip Hop / Rap communities, but there seems to be something different here


might have something to do with pale-skin or the fact that most people here have no delusions about how flawed they are
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 07:03:32 PM
oh yeah and the humor

a lot of people dont laugh much
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 07:05:12 PM
That's because they are fundamentally angry.  Angst is huge in subcultures like that.

And here, for that matter.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 07:06:43 PM
Whats amusing about that is that I am generally considered a very cheerful fellow IRL.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 07:05:12 PM
That's because they are fundamentally angry.  Angst is huge in subcultures like that.

And here, for that matter.

i think you may have hit it there

angst

this place comparatively lacks angst

angst seems to be replaced with squirming annoyance and aggrevation

we have progressed past the angst stage and reverted to finding sophisticated ways to throw temper-tantrums
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 07:15:28 PM
And those of us who lack sophistication are bashing the keys with our head.

:lulz:
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 07:25:37 PM
I don't have enough experience here to make a qualitative judgment.  But seeing the tenor of new folks coming here everyday, I'd say there's more angst out there, so perhaps it'll fuel that which exists here.

Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 07:27:56 PM
interesting

i guess angst can head in a few directions
emo or effort amongst them
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:44:13 PM
Angst is at its very core the reason any of us are here.  The word though, is sullied from its use in describing silly superficial teenagers and their silly superficial problems.

I think that angst describes what we have, but in a more primitive and base sense.  Angst is dissatisfaction without sufficient awareness or evidence.  Angst is like paranoia, imprecise and uninformed, and the angst filled are too often put easily to rest by trite sentiments and reminders of the dominance of the status quo.

The connotation of the word (at least as I have come to know it) belies the amount of thought put behind most philosophical endeavours.

It's sophomoric, but correct in denotation.


What brought me here recently has been disgust.  I recently moved into a new dorm, and my room mate has acted as a sort of catharsis to show me the depths of human depravity and superficiality.  In the past, I have spent almost all of my time alone, but now that I am in college I have been thrust into a world which I always knew existed, but could remain apart from.  It is becoming more and more apparent though, that a struggle is approaching, and I will either continue my resistance, but more actively; or I will be absorbed into it.

Greater measures must be taken now, for me, and that means something like this.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 08:48:19 PM
If you need any ideas about jakes you can pull in your dorm, you came to the right place.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 08:48:57 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:44:13 PM
Angst is at its very core the reason any of us are here.  The word though, is sullied from its use in describing silly superficial teenagers and their silly superficial problems.

I think that angst describes what we have, but in a more primitive and base sense.  Angst is dissatisfaction without sufficient awareness or evidence.  Angst is like paranoia, imprecise and uninformed, and the angst filled are too often put easily to rest by trite sentiments and reminders of the dominance of the status quo.

The connotation of the word (at least as I have come to know it) belies the amount of thought put behind most philosophical endeavours.

It's sophomoric, but correct in denotation.


What brought me here recently has been disgust.  I recently moved into a new dorm, and my room mate has acted as a sort of catharsis to show me the depths of human depravity and superficiality.  In the past, I have spent almost all of my time alone, but now that I am in college I have been thrust into a world which I always knew existed, but could remain apart from.  It is becoming more and more apparent though, that a struggle is approaching, and I will either continue my resistance, but more actively; or I will be absorbed into it.

Greater measures must be taken now, for me, and that means something like this.

Enlightenment brings an end to angst.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 08:52:09 PM
being thrust into situations

damn

i guess there is 2 things to keep in mind - respect those around you, but above all, if the pressure gets thrown on you, do whatever it is you have to do


endure as much as you possibly can, then let loose

thats how storms work
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 06, 2006, 08:48:57 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:44:13 PM
Angst is at its very core the reason any of us are here.  The word though, is sullied from its use in describing silly superficial teenagers and their silly superficial problems.

I think that angst describes what we have, but in a more primitive and base sense.  Angst is dissatisfaction without sufficient awareness or evidence.  Angst is like paranoia, imprecise and uninformed, and the angst filled are too often put easily to rest by trite sentiments and reminders of the dominance of the status quo.

The connotation of the word (at least as I have come to know it) belies the amount of thought put behind most philosophical endeavours.

It's sophomoric, but correct in denotation.


What brought me here recently has been disgust.  I recently moved into a new dorm, and my room mate has acted as a sort of catharsis to show me the depths of human depravity and superficiality.  In the past, I have spent almost all of my time alone, but now that I am in college I have been thrust into a world which I always knew existed, but could remain apart from.  It is becoming more and more apparent though, that a struggle is approaching, and I will either continue my resistance, but more actively; or I will be absorbed into it.

Greater measures must be taken now, for me, and that means something like this.

Enlightenment brings an end to angst.


Enlightenment doesn't last.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 08:53:05 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 06, 2006, 08:48:57 PM
Enlightenment brings an end to angst.
enlightened people also got a right uppercut that can knock jupiter out of orbit
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:55:19 PM
Took the words out of my mouth LMNO.
And also, more and more it serves to exacerbate the problems of the world.  Just the disparity between ones own enlightenment and that of others can, by itself, be depressing.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 06, 2006, 08:57:02 PM
a lot of people don't wanna do the things they feel they might have to do

a lot of responsibility comes with being born lol
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 08:57:36 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 06, 2006, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 06, 2006, 08:48:57 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:44:13 PM
Angst is at its very core the reason any of us are here.  The word though, is sullied from its use in describing silly superficial teenagers and their silly superficial problems.

I think that angst describes what we have, but in a more primitive and base sense.  Angst is dissatisfaction without sufficient awareness or evidence.  Angst is like paranoia, imprecise and uninformed, and the angst filled are too often put easily to rest by trite sentiments and reminders of the dominance of the status quo.

The connotation of the word (at least as I have come to know it) belies the amount of thought put behind most philosophical endeavours.

It's sophomoric, but correct in denotation.


What brought me here recently has been disgust.  I recently moved into a new dorm, and my room mate has acted as a sort of catharsis to show me the depths of human depravity and superficiality.  In the past, I have spent almost all of my time alone, but now that I am in college I have been thrust into a world which I always knew existed, but could remain apart from.  It is becoming more and more apparent though, that a struggle is approaching, and I will either continue my resistance, but more actively; or I will be absorbed into it.

Greater measures must be taken now, for me, and that means something like this.

Enlightenment brings an end to angst.


Enlightenment doesn't last.

Doesn't have to - statement still stands.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 08:59:43 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:55:19 PM
Took the words out of my mouth LMNO.
And also, more and more it serves to exacerbate the problems of the world.  Just the disparity between ones own enlightenment and that of others can, by itself, be depressing.

If one is becoming depressed - seek enlightenment.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 09:04:50 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 06, 2006, 08:59:43 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:55:19 PM
Took the words out of my mouth LMNO.
And also, more and more it serves to exacerbate the problems of the world.  Just the disparity between ones own enlightenment and that of others can, by itself, be depressing.

If one is becoming depressed - seek enlightenment.

I did not intend to imply stagnation of the mind.  It is my single concern, seeking enlightenment, but it is a difficult exercise and along the way, the rewards can only be viewed inwardly. 
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 09:14:11 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 09:04:50 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 06, 2006, 08:59:43 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 08:55:19 PM
Took the words out of my mouth LMNO.
And also, more and more it serves to exacerbate the problems of the world.  Just the disparity between ones own enlightenment and that of others can, by itself, be depressing.

If one is becoming depressed - seek enlightenment.

I did not intend to imply stagnation of the mind.  It is my single concern, seeking enlightenment, but it is a difficult exercise and along the way, the rewards can only be viewed inwardly. 

I get you. My original point (yeah I actually had one for a change) was to counter your statement about everyone suffering angst. It IS something you can leave behind. Never said it was gonna be easy tho.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 06, 2006, 09:16:05 PM
But just remember putting on blinders ! = leaving angst behind
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 09:18:35 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 06, 2006, 09:16:05 PM
But just remember putting on blinders ! = leaving angst behind

Troof!

Also - always remember you are wrong and focus rather on exploring/modifying a notion rather than settling on it.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 06, 2006, 09:20:03 PM
Or even accepting it.  That sometimes modifies it on its own.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 09:21:24 PM
I'm saying angst is the sympton of trying to cure yourself of the afflictions brought upon you by the world.

The disease metaphor can be extended, that the physical pains brought on by your immune system fighting a flu or cold or whatever, are not the effects of the affliction, but rather the effect of the internal conflict occuring trying to rid the body of the impurity.

To say "Strive for enlightenment" might work as a piece of simple encouragement, to see the journey through to its end, but the journey itself brings on the peril.  The disgust, the angst, the dissatisfaction, is the result of conflict, which at least means there is some element which recognizes that there is something dreadfully and pervasively wrong with the state of affairs in ones own life.

I don't think everyone is suffering from angst.
I think there are a lot of people who are completely purposefully ignorant to it, and are slowly happily dieing.

And hopefully it can be left behind...just not until attainment, in whatever form that takes.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 09:24:36 PM
Quote from: Hangero on December 06, 2006, 09:21:24 PM
I'm saying angst is the sympton of trying to cure yourself of the afflictions brought upon you by the world.

The disease metaphor can be extended, that the physical pains brought on by your immune system fighting a flu or cold or whatever, are not the effects of the affliction, but rather the effect of the internal conflict occuring trying to rid the body of the impurity.

To say "Strive for enlightenment" might work as a piece of simple encouragement, to see the journey through to its end, but the journey itself brings on the peril.  The disgust, the angst, the dissatisfaction, is the result of conflict, which at least means there is some element which recognizes that there is something dreadfully and pervasively wrong with the state of affairs in ones own life.

I don't think everyone is suffering from angst.
I think there are a lot of people who are completely purposefully ignorant to it, and are slowly happily dieing.

And hopefully it can be left behind...just not until attainment, in whatever form that takes.

When you reach your destination you'll see the funny side of it.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: B_M_W on December 06, 2006, 11:49:19 PM
Wait...there's a destination?
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 06, 2006, 11:55:40 PM
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on December 06, 2006, 11:49:19 PM
Wait...there's a destination?

From his point of view yes. From mine notions like destination sorta fly out the window. I'm just flying round in spirals.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 01:42:01 AM
Eh.  The only destination I can see from HERE is 6' under.  Just saying.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 01:44:56 AM
On angst:  I think there is a disease in the human mind--it's the quest to just get and beget.  Now, if there are obstacles to that, yes, you have angst.  If not, you'll have angst about the fact you DON'T have obstacles, and what you'll do when you encounter them.  Anyone who's been rich or know anyone who is knows that.

So!  I believe that angst, at least for us post-post-modern, Westernized fools is a real part of our subculture/society.  We are fed it in spoons, it's jarred and sold on the market, and then the drugs to sweep it under the rug are Rx'd to the nines.

Groups like THIS, however, delve into the angst, chop it up, dissect it, reform it and punch it til it's bloody.  Ya'll have a waaaay different approach, and it appeals because it's not marketed as a solution to the angst but rather a panacea to its symptoms.

I'm hoping this panacea will help me some, but who the fuck knows in the end, eh?
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 07, 2006, 07:26:48 AM
Quote from: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 01:42:01 AM
Eh.  The only destination I can see from HERE is 6' under.  Just saying.

Before 6ft under comes egodeath. Trick is to fit the latter in as long before the former as poss.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 07, 2006, 07:27:57 AM
Quote from: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 01:44:56 AM

I'm hoping this panacea will help me some, but who the fuck knows in the end, eh?


Only you.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 12:55:37 PM
I see what Hang is saying, I think-- that once you start striving for enlightenment (whatever that is), they enter what RAW and AC calls "Chapel Perilous" or "The Void" (Da'ath?). 

That is, when you get going, you have to dissillusion youself of all (most of) what you were taught.  That brings angst.  Many people give up at this point.

I like the reality of this, Hang.  The road is tough, and it's best to know you're getting into heavy shit.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 07, 2006, 02:37:30 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 12:55:37 PM
I see what Hang is saying, I think-- that once you start striving for enlightenment (whatever that is), they enter what RAW and AC calls "Chapel Perilous" or "The Void" (Da'ath?). 

That is, when you get going, you have to dissillusion youself of all (most of) what you were taught.  That brings angst.  Many people give up at this point.

I like the reality of this, Hang.  The road is tough, and it's best to know you're getting into heavy shit.

The long dark night of the soul. It's long and dark and also quite souley and nighty while its at it. It's no fucking joke and only the strong survive. Then comes the golden dawn - not the 19th century philosophers club but the bright awakening it was named after.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 02:39:38 PM
And then it's right back into the Chapel again.




LMNO
-knows it's a lot like an acid trip: a week later, and it's like it never happened.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 07, 2006, 02:41:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 02:39:38 PM
And then it's right back into the Chapel again.




LMNO
-knows it's a lot like an acid trip: a week later, and it's like it never happened.

Hell yeah. Just when you think you've got it sussed you're back to square 1 again. Progress is spiral I was told years ago. Took me a fkin age to get what that meant.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 02:42:45 PM
"A true initiation never ends."
-Uncle Al.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 07, 2006, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 02:42:45 PM
"A true initiation never ends."
-Uncle Al.

There's something happens that first moment tho that changes you for life.

"When the doors of perception are opened theres no closing them."
- Huxley (paraphrased due to sheer lazyness)
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on December 07, 2006, 02:53:20 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 07, 2006, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 02:42:45 PM
"A true initiation never ends."
-Uncle Al.

There's something happens that first moment tho that changes you for life.

"When the doors of perception are opened theres no closing them."
- Huxley (paraphrased due to sheer lazyness)

169% troof right there. 

And I bet a lot of us remember the exact moment those doors opened.  You have that moment, and I know this sounds sooo cliche, but you know you'll never be able to go back. 
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: LHX on December 07, 2006, 03:01:08 PM
from 1 prison into a bigger prison that includes the smaller prison

like them dolls that you keep opening it up and theres a smaller one inside


leave these bodies behind and find yourself in a bigger one
etc
etc
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 07, 2006, 03:01:20 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 07, 2006, 02:53:20 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 07, 2006, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 07, 2006, 02:42:45 PM
"A true initiation never ends."
-Uncle Al.

There's something happens that first moment tho that changes you for life.

"When the doors of perception are opened theres no closing them."
- Huxley (paraphrased due to sheer lazyness)

169% troof right there.

And I bet a lot of us remember the exact moment those doors opened. You have that moment, and I know this sounds sooo cliche, but you know you'll never be able to go back.

Read my bring and brag (someone, anyone please) The irony is that that moment I described there haunted me for the best part of 15 years before I finally understood it in the context I described it there. 15 years ammounts to one fucking long, fucking dark night, including 2 bouts of institutionalised insanity, a messy divorce, a spot or two of homelessness and a whole bunch of other shit that sucked bigtime.

Of course now that I get the joke I'm glad it all happened that way. Quite enlightening to look back on the trian wreck that was my life.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: SAVAGE on October 02, 2008, 04:32:04 AM
BUMP
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Honey on October 02, 2008, 04:47:37 AM
Quote from: SAVAGE on October 02, 2008, 04:32:04 AM
BUMP


How unusual?

Meaningful, creative & original, yet cryptic & mysterious?

YET unamusing.  hhhmmm, & please think for yourself schmuck.

*Thanks & Respect.*

Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: SAVAGE on October 02, 2008, 04:49:41 AM
Quote from: Honey on October 02, 2008, 04:47:37 AM
Quote from: SAVAGE on October 02, 2008, 04:32:04 AM
BUMP


How unusual?

Meaningful, creative & original, yet cryptic & mysterious?

*Thanks & Respect.*



Cheers...I was going to stop bumping but because of your kind words the next ten are for you hunny bunny.
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: Honey on October 02, 2008, 05:23:08 AM
Quote from: Honey on October 02, 2008, 04:47:37 AM
Quote from: SAVAGE on October 02, 2008, 04:32:04 AM
BUMP


YET unamusing.  hhhmmm, & please think for yourself schmuck.

*Thanks & Respect.*


You are maaaaahvelous!  Awe-inspiring even.  cheeers & kudos & zzzzzzzzzzz's evener. 

  Sincerely,
  Honey
  -justa meshungunuh monkey turning her other cheek   :)

(yeah - that 1)

(*& I really am sleeeepy, so g'nite or g'day*)
Title: Re: The Fear and Desire Loop
Post by: AFK on October 02, 2008, 02:19:01 PM
Well, at least this one is a good one.  A very good one I might add.