So, what happens to ideals in the BIP?
Are they allowed?
Are they used as a noose?
I think most of the people on this forum have them.  Are they a new rope to hang yourself with?  I often wonder how much we enslave ourselves to them when they are hidden so well within our own mindsets.  They creep out unbeknownst to even the most discerning self-aware thinker (beware the psychobabble sprecht--sorry, have no other way to describe it atm--I'm sure I'll learn more lingo to use anon).
Anyway, I'm just wondering what folks hereabouts would think about so-called Ideals/Idealism.  It does exist here...it fairly echoes throughout the forum's halls.  For a place that decries much of the preset notions that society forcefeeds us, there's a fair bit of dogma (catma, wevertf) nevertheless that creates a soupcon of rigidity to what is to be known/unknown and sought/left behind...
Idealism is great. I wish more people were idealistic about breaking down the barricades of Eden. Paradise is something to strive for.
But, is "paradise" attainable?
And what IS "paradise"? I'm betting it varies, person to person. And I'm also willing to bet each person is weighted down by a notion of "paradise" that's carried from childhood-on.
I don't know if it's an ideal, because I don't know if it will ever bring me happiness (or if that even really exists), but the endless pursuit of Truth and Knowledge drive me. It might be an ideal or not.
Ideals usually leave me bitter because so many of them are impossible, but I think sense a definite ideal behind all of this (The board, BIP, PD, and so on), even if it is as simple as waking people up.
Quote from: Hangero on December 07, 2006, 05:09:15 AM
I don't know if it's an ideal, because I don't know if it will ever bring me happiness (or if that even really exists), but the endless pursuit of Truth and Knowledge drive me.  It might be an ideal or not.
I'm just in it for the cheap laffs.
I think ideals set us up for ultimate failure. NOT in all things, but primarily in whatever premise you set out to achieve proof for.
Maybe as long as you realize and acknowledge said failure, or possibility thereof, it's ok.
Quote from: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 05:51:19 AM
I think ideals set us up for ultimate failure. NOT in all things, but primarily in whatever premise you set out to achieve proof for.
Maybe as long as you realize and acknowledge said failure, or possibility thereof, it's ok.
I switched ideals for a personal code of integrity years ago. Me versus me as opposed to me versus them.
I like where you're going, Jenne. Please expound on the nature of Ideals, and why you think they might run counter to the ideas of the BIP.
This is an angle I don't think we have taken yet. Good work.
Quote from: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 05:51:19 AM
I think ideals set us up for ultimate failure.  NOT in all things, but primarily in whatever premise you set out to achieve proof for.
Maybe as long as you realize and acknowledge said failure, or possibility thereof, it's ok.
I guess the key would be to have Realistic Ideals. Be a Realistic Idealist.
Like, it would be Ideal if everyone "woke up" to see some or all of what they have seemingly been blind to.
However, it's probably quite delusional to think that would ever happen. Hell, it's probably delusional to think even 1% of 6 billion would buy into it.
But then again, is that the goal. I don't think so. I think it is to offer vision, or, the chance to have vision, or to be aware of the "Ideal" of vision. Those who wish explore the "Ideal", those who don't continue on their merry way. Perhaps some those who explore the "Ideal" of vision say, "Eh, I'm Okay" and also continue as they were.
Am I making any sense or am I just muddying the waters? Because I've been pretty good at that lately in the offline world.
Setting your sights on waking everybody up is the kind of fucking stoopid thing that only an idiot like myself could ever dream up (true story) But resolving to help as many as you can is realistic, sensible whilst still aiming at the same end.
what in the blazes would be the opposite of having ideals?
yeah the notion of a future with a non-ending series of vague or severe tribulations sounds real appealing
does that qualify?
having ideals about what you know you DONT want?
im willing to head to paradise wherever it is and in whatever form it comes
Quote from: LHX on December 07, 2006, 02:58:53 PM
what in the blazes would be the opposite of having ideals?
good point/question.
Is there such a thing as a person without ideals?
I mean, wouldn't deciding you were just going to live on the couch watching CSI 24 hours a day still constitute some sort of ideal?
i dig what is being said here tho
there needs to be a exploration of how people can viably live together on a planet in this universe - without causing each other more problems or undue stress
anybody who says it isnt possible prolly wont help something like that come to fruition
also - it seems that 'ideals' get challenged from more than 1 angle:
there is the angle where even good things arent as 'romantic' or 'thrilling' as some may have been hoping
and there is the 'more fun than you really wanted' angle that we are reminded of around these boards
Quote from: LHX on December 07, 2006, 03:51:40 PM
also - it seems that 'ideals' get challenged from more than 1 angle:
there is the angle where even good things arent as 'romantic' or 'thrilling' as some may have been hoping
and there is the 'more fun than you really wanted' angle that we are reminded of around these boards
yup, I think childbirth is a good example of the first. Not that bringing a child into the world isn't rewarding, it is. However, the 'romantic' and 'thrilling' ideals before the event are quickly replaced by 'sleep-deprived' and 'trying'
And that is a case where not thinking it through can result in a drastic mistake. You think making a child is going to be peachy and keen and cute. Then it happens. Then, perhaps one or both of the parents check out because it wasn't what they bargained for. Then you have 3 fucked up people.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 07, 2006, 04:00:42 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 07, 2006, 03:51:40 PM
also - it seems that 'ideals' get challenged from more than 1 angle:
there is the angle where even good things arent as 'romantic' or 'thrilling' as some may have been hoping
and there is the 'more fun than you really wanted' angle that we are reminded of around these boards
yup, I think childbirth is a good example of the first. Not that bringing a child into the world isn't rewarding, it is. However, the 'romantic' and 'thrilling' ideals before the event are quickly replaced by 'sleep-deprived' and 'trying'
And that is a case where not thinking it through can result in a drastic mistake. You think making a child is going to be peachy and keen and cute. Then it happens. Then, perhaps one or both of the parents check out because it wasn't what they bargained for. Then you have 3 fucked up people.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 07, 2006, 03:40:06 PM
"Oh shit, we just blew up Greenland!"
RWHN swings the sharp sword off accurate truth ITT
I know I keep going back to this notion of what you are socialized to do and become vs. what you are programmed through genetics (which, I believe, have been shown to have SOME aspect of environmental manipulation as well) to do. I think idealism, in all forms, is a direct impact of your environment. And, going back to what I said yesterday, people usually either mostly EMBRACE their environment, or reject it outright.
However, if you're someone with a jaundiced eye toward pie-in-the-sky goal-setting, you're going to not necessarily spend much time and resources trying to set and then attain these goals, though you might unwittingly be working towards them all along.
What happens to an individual when they realize they've been reaching towards all the wrong things all along, or what they were working for is imminently unattainable is really really interesting. I think this serves as a wake-up point for the BIP analogy.
You take a person who is very AWARE of how reachable their set ideals were since the beginning, and they are an entirely different animal.
So, when I say I think ideals set us up for failure, for my first example, those who are eventually disillusioned, is who I was primarily talking about. We all know these people, hell, some of us ARE these people. You were brought up to believe something, live a certain way, you go along with it with certain expectations in mind.
Then BAM! right between the eyes, the Hideous Troof(tm) is revealed, and you tailspin out of the path you'd preset when you were pimply-faced and jacking off in your parent's basement.
The second type of goal-setting idealist, the Realist Idealist(tm) that RWHN is talking about, had the smack between the eyes earlier on in life, and never saw the unattainable as part of his/her universe. S/he may or may not recognize how different they may be vis a vis their own brand of idealism...generally they probably are and look with derision upon those who haven't "woken up" yet. I think you can all recognize that this is generally a person who is drawn automatically or even naturally to a movement like this. There is very little pulling them down into their set, societal ties, so loosing hold of them in order to accept a set of beliefs like what is here in the BIP is not so hard after all.
So...does any of that make any sense?
Quote from: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 05:37:25 PM
I know I keep going back to this notion of what you are socialized to do and become vs. what you are programmed through genetics (which, I believe, have been shown to have SOME aspect of environmental manipulation as well) to do. I think idealism, in all forms, is a direct impact of your environment. And, going back to what I said yesterday, people usually either mostly EMBRACE their environment, or reject it outright.
However, if you're someone with a jaundiced eye toward pie-in-the-sky goal-setting, you're going to not necessarily spend much time and resources trying to set and then attain these goals, though you might unwittingly be working towards them all along.
What happens to an individual when they realize they've been reaching towards all the wrong things all along, or what they were working for is imminently unattainable is really really interesting. I think this serves as a wake-up point for the BIP analogy.
You take a person who is very AWARE of how reachable their set ideals were since the beginning, and they are an entirely different animal.
So, when I say I think ideals set us up for failure, for my first example, those who are eventually disillusioned, is who I was primarily talking about. We all know these people, hell, some of us ARE these people. You were brought up to believe something, live a certain way, you go along with it with certain expectations in mind.
Then BAM! right between the eyes, the Hideous Troof(tm) is revealed, and you tailspin out of the path you'd preset when you were pimply-faced and jacking off in your parent's basement.
The second type of goal-setting idealist, the Realist Idealist(tm) that RWHN is talking about, had the smack between the eyes earlier on in life, and never saw the unattainable as part of his/her universe. S/he may or may not recognize how different they may be vis a vis their own brand of idealism...generally they probably are and look with derision upon those who haven't "woken up" yet. I think you can all recognize that this is generally a person who is drawn automatically or even naturally to a movement like this. There is very little pulling them down into their set, societal ties, so loosing hold of them in order to accept a set of beliefs like what is here in the BIP is not so hard after all.
So...does any of that make any sense?
Makes perfect sense to me apart from the last bit about beliefs Maybe it's just because 'belief' is one of my pet hate words but I don't think we really believe anything here and that's why I feel at home.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 07, 2006, 05:47:21 PM
Makes perfect sense to me apart from the last bit about beliefs Maybe it's just because 'belief' is one of my pet hate words but I don't think we really believe anything here and that's why I feel at home.
I call bullshit!
Otherwise this forum would be completely blank wouldn't it?
Personal Liberty, in whichever way it can be defined, seems to be the central modest ideal of all I pick up from PD, and BIP and all that stuff.
You can say you have no ideals, but by saying that you also intend that you have no purposes and wish for no changes. Ideals are not poison, they just shouldn't have such incredible weight placed upon them. But Personal Liberty seems to stand for me to be the principle that says people should be independent of all this bullshit that continually tries to entrap them.
And now another problematic thought occurs to me, and I think it is the main nerve of the problem overall: What if, when man is given the ability to have control of his life, his eventual inclination is to hand over that control? What if by fighting the enourmous constructs of civilization, we are only fighting something so inherit in mankind that it can not be fully extinguished, or that we are merely existing on the fringe of some terrible wheel that arbitrarily prefers liberty or dominance, depending on the day of the week?
Mmmm....this is how ideals become abandonned.
Quote from: Hangero on December 07, 2006, 06:11:54 PM
Personal Liberty, in whichever way it can be defined, seems to be the central modest ideal of all I pick up from PD, and BIP and all that stuff. 
You can say you have no ideals, but by saying that you also intend that you have no purposes and wish for no changes.  Ideals are not poison, they just shouldn't have such incredible weight placed upon them.  But Personal Liberty seems to stand for me to be the principle that says people should be independent of all this bullshit that continually tries to entrap them.
And now another problematic thought occurs to me, and I think it is the main nerve of the problem overall:  What if, when man is given the ability to have control of his life, his eventual inclination is to hand over that control?  What if by fighting the enourmous constructs of civilization, we are only fighting something so inherit in mankind that it can not be fully extinguished, or that we are merely existing on the fringe of some terrible wheel that arbitrarily prefers liberty or dominance, depending on the day of the week?
Mmmm....this is how ideals become abandonned.
Have you been reading The Machine(tm) thread?
I think I glanced it over, but I didn't remember anything except that none of you agree on what The Machine is.
True but what you wrote above does have some similarities with some of the ideas discussed. (I.e. the wheel metaphor you used)
That was one angle on The Machine(tm). That you can change parts of it. But, realistically, you can't overcome or change the whole of it. Some may be optimistic and think if you continuously change little parts here and there that the cumulative effect will be whole scale change.
However, it is fluid. Just because one part changes doesn't mean it won't change back. There are many cells in the Prison. Nothing keeps someone from going back to the original cell they were in before their "enlightenment"
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 07, 2006, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 07, 2006, 05:47:21 PM
Makes perfect sense to me apart from the last bit about beliefs Maybe it's just because 'belief' is one of my pet hate words but I don't think we really believe anything here and that's why I feel at home.
I call bullshit!
Otherwise this forum would be completely blank wouldn't it?
Like I said - it's prolly just the word that annoys me. Too many negative connotations in this head.
Quote from: Hangero on December 07, 2006, 06:11:54 PM
Personal Liberty, in whichever way it can be defined, seems to be the central modest ideal of all I pick up from PD, and BIP and all that stuff.
You can say you have no ideals, but by saying that you also intend that you have no purposes and wish for no changes. Ideals are not poison, they just shouldn't have such incredible weight placed upon them. But Personal Liberty seems to stand for me to be the principle that says people should be independent of all this bullshit that continually tries to entrap them.
And now another problematic thought occurs to me, and I think it is the main nerve of the problem overall: What if, when man is given the ability to have control of his life, his eventual inclination is to hand over that control? What if by fighting the enourmous constructs of civilization, we are only fighting something so inherit in mankind that it can not be fully extinguished, or that we are merely existing on the fringe of some terrible wheel that arbitrarily prefers liberty or dominance, depending on the day of the week?
Mmmm....this is how ideals become abandonned.
I think the majority of people are like that, whether thats down to conditioning or basic nature I'm not so sure. But there is definitely a significant minority who have the opposite nature, despite the conditioning.
Quote from: Hangero on December 07, 2006, 06:11:54 PM
And now another problematic thought occurs to me, and I think it is the main nerve of the problem overall: What if, when man is given the ability to have control of his life, his eventual inclination is to hand over that control?
It's a rare human who *doesn't* have that inclination, especially in "emergency" situations. One of my housemates has been trained in the CERT program (FEMA's attempt to build a network of "local" first responders), and one of the things they were explicitly taught was that if you walk into an emergency situation and sound sufficiently authoritative, most folks will obey you without even realizing it. They will assume you know what you're talking about because you *aren't* panicking, and they'll be naturally inclined to follow your directions.
Do with that information what you will. :evil:
Well, the word "enlightenment" bugs the shit out of me, so we're even, then, Silly! ;)
Quote from: Jenne on December 07, 2006, 06:26:09 PM
Well, the word "enlightenment" bugs the shit out of me, so we're even, then, Silly! ;)
I'll keep that in mind.
if people use their freedom to hand over the control, that would be fine, as long as they don't get in the way of others who want to hang on to it.
this is of course a paradox.
perhaps it's the paradox of the Machine. people are inherently free, but some (a lot, in fact) want to hand over the control, and thereby deny others who in fact do want control of their life, to have it.
(that could have been worded more clearly i think, but i hope you get the gist of it)
Quote from: triple zero on December 07, 2006, 07:47:55 PM
if people use their freedom to hand over the control, that would be fine, as long as they don't get in the way of others who want to hang on to it.
My mom thinks like this with regards to feminism. Somehow one of my cousins turned out socially conservative (I blame her husband, or should I call him hubby so folks will hate him more? ;)). This cousin has talked about how she doesn't support feminism at all, and my mom's take on it is "Well, thank God we fought so hard all those decades ago so you have the freedom to make that decision for yourself!".
I don't think humanity is ready to become a bunch of 100% individualistic thinkers. Even if we were to undo any social programming that would cause people to think in groups, you'd find them reinventing that mental wheel. There's strength in numbers, especially when that strength comes from a shared worldview. The best we could possibly hope for is to keep chipping away at that social programming, so that if folks are groupthinking, then at least we can be reasonably sure that they know about the alternative.
And just to reply to myself: I do suspect that if we undid all the programming, folks would probably end up in a mix of group thinking and individual thinking. Wasn't it Jefferson who said "in matters of style, flow with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock"? I think that's what we'd end up with. The fun would be in seeing what everybody thought was style or principle. :D
Well, and I rarely throw out all uses of social training, anyway. It has its uses, and everything you learn has a purpose, not all of it terrible, horrible, bad or confining.
Bavarian fire drill, for the win.
Learn to act like them, talk like them, look like like them. Pass yourself off as one of them and the world is your mollusk.
Quote from: triple zero on December 07, 2006, 07:47:55 PM
if people use their freedom to hand over the control, that would be fine, as long as they don't get in the way of others who want to hang on to it.
this is of course a paradox.
perhaps it's the paradox of the Machine. people are inherently free, but some (a lot, in fact) want to hand over the control, and thereby deny others who in fact do want control of their life, to have it.
(that could have been worded more clearly i think, but i hope you get the gist of it)
quote for further investigation -- good post
It is a paradox and one I am familiar with. My parents are devout Baptists and in a perfect world would want me to follow their faith. My faith, if they were fully aware of it, would scare the ever loving Jesus out of them. To them it would be crazy talk. Of course I am an adult now so there is no direct pressure, but as a child I could see where they would want to keep me from following what I consider a path to freedom and they would consider a "path to hell."
a lot of people genuinely feel they are doing the right thing
and they will try to enforce it on others
is there anything more terrifying?
i will never be a salesman
I was a salesman, for 8 years.
Hands down the worst job I've ever had.
I don't know how ministers, priests, whatever do it.
I mean, trying to convince someone that buying a $20 keychain light that costs $2 to make made me feel really, really icky. Especially when the believed me that it was a steal.
I can understand why some of the old PD regulars got a little spooked when the whole BIP thing started to happen.
most of the atrocities of history are done by people who thought  they were doing the right thing
a lot of time people wont do something unless they are convinced its right
obviously its easy to judge acts after the fact
take something like the crusades, and the atrocities done there - such as ritualistic slaughter
we look at them now hundreds of years later and question "what the hell were they thinking"
well they thought they were doing the right thing for god
PS was a door to door salesman for only a summer- luckily
agree its one of the worst jobs out there
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 08, 2006, 04:07:56 PM
I mean, trying to convince someone that buying a $20 keychain light that costs $2 to make made me feel really, really icky. Especially when the believed me that it was a steal.
I can understand why some of the old PD regulars got a little spooked when the whole BIP thing started to happen.
that right there is the jewel of the whole affair
it pushed us to explore what we were broadcasting
for me personally at least -
now it seems more a matter of pointing things out and exposing people to observations and perspectives that they dont normally have access to
rather than trying to convince them of the Real Truth that Eris is The One True Goddess hail eris hail eris hail eris
but no
seriously
take a city dweller - drop them in the forest - give them a path back to the city that lets them go at their own pace - let them make their own decisions
Your mission - teach the masses not to just blindly accept that what someone tells them is how it is
The paradox - they shouldn't really believe you either
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:16:33 PM
Your mission - teach the masses not to just blindly accept that what someone tells them is how it is
The paradox - they shouldn't really believe you either
exactly
so the focus goes from changing somebodys mind to giving them the tools to change their own mind
as well as reason to pick those tools up and put them to use
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:17:52 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:16:33 PM
Your mission - teach the masses not to just blindly accept that what someone tells them is how it is
The paradox - they shouldn't really believe you either
exactly
so the focus goes from changing somebodys mind to giving them the tools to change their own mind
Yup. Any other way might make me feel a bit uncomfortable.
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:19:30 PM
as well as reason to pick those tools up and put them to use
That's starting to get too close to 'championing a cause' IMO
My motive is because it interests me to attempt to do so.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:19:56 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:17:52 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:16:33 PM
Your mission - teach the masses not to just blindly accept that what someone tells them is how it is
The paradox - they shouldn't really believe you either
exactly
so the focus goes from changing somebodys mind to giving them the tools to change their own mind
Yup. Any other way might make me feel a bit uncomfortable.
no doubt
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:19:30 PM
as well as reason to pick those tools up and put them to use
That's starting to get too close to 'championing a cause' IMO
My motive is because it interests me to attempt to do so.
i see what youre saying
we explored this issue over the past couple of months - and it seems that there is reason to believe that the more people around you are 'free', the more you yourself are free
hypothetically
i am interested to see if that is true
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:12:56 PM
take a city dweller - drop them in the forest - give them a path back to the city that lets them go at their own pace - let them make their own decisions
I like this.
And that's how I see it.  Someone living in a city forever has no perception of what it is like to be anywhere else.  Initially, it may seem terrifying.  But after they can see how the might be able to breathe easier, stretch out their legs, have a slower pace, they might want a different path.  Or, they may still choose to go back.  But, at least they know there are other options to revisit later.  
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:26:51 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:19:56 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:17:52 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:16:33 PM
Your mission - teach the masses not to just blindly accept that what someone tells them is how it is
The paradox - they shouldn't really believe you either
exactly
so the focus goes from changing somebodys mind to giving them the tools to change their own mind
Yup. Any other way might make me feel a bit uncomfortable.
no doubt
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 04:19:30 PM
as well as reason to pick those tools up and put them to use
That's starting to get too close to 'championing a cause' IMO
My motive is because it interests me to attempt to do so.
i see what youre saying
we explored this issue over the past couple of months - and it seems that there is reason to believe that the more people around you are 'free', the more you yourself are free
hypothetically
i am interested to see if that is true
Yeah! Your motive should your own personal interest. Justify it any other way and there can be issues creeping in there.
Personally I'm not sure about the theory. It could be true but it could be that creating a larger, more visible, group of free thinkers might result in massive fury from the machine. Let's do it and find out.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 04:35:56 PM
Yeah! Your motive should your own personal interest. Justify it any other way and there can be issues creeping in there.
Personally I'm not sure about the theory. It could be true but it could be that creating a larger, more visible, group of free thinkers might result in massive fury from the machine. Let's do it and find out.
yeeeeeeeeeeah i dig that
besides
the situation on the planet is getting bleak enough as it is
at a certain point, any change is a good change
That point would be pretty damned bleak, though, LHX. I don't think that point has been near enough reached yet, in general, to make that true...
On case by case basis, perhaps.
NOT, however, in general.
Quote from: Jenne on December 08, 2006, 06:07:58 PM
That point would be pretty damned bleak, though, LHX. I don't think that point has been near enough reached yet, in general, to make that true...
On case by case basis, perhaps.
NOT, however, in general.
Quote from: True Romance
"We park our cars in the same garage"
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 08, 2006, 06:12:08 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 08, 2006, 06:07:58 PM
That point would be pretty damned bleak, though, LHX. I don't think that point has been near enough reached yet, in general, to make that true...
On case by case basis, perhaps.
NOT, however, in general.
Quote from: True Romance
"We park our cars in the same garage"
QFMFT
only as strong as its weakest link
only thriving as much as the one under the most pressure
its all part of saving self
its icing on the cake that it improves the situation for others
That sounds suspiciously like compassion... :wink:
Quote from: LMNO on December 08, 2006, 06:19:39 PM
That sounds suspiciously like compassion... :wink:
Wasn't me. No sir. I was just there, like hating everything in a nihillistic, solipsistical way. Didn't even know the guy guv'nor. LHX? Wasn't that some george lucas soundtrack?
lol
its amazing how sometimes things sound like other things...
good deeds done by accident as a by-product of selfish motivation
sounds like a good plot twist
LHX, that sounds like the real definition of altruism for Teh Really Real World(tm).
I just have this theory that we don't do anything for others, ever, that doesn't somehow serve our own needs best, however those needs manifest themselves.
Universal Ethical Egoism is The Machine(tm).
And there's really nothing ethical about it.
Expound, please.
I will a little later, sorry to leave you hanging, but I'm on a laptop with a weird keyboard and it's taking me too long to type. Also, I can't compose an appropriate response in the mere 10 minutes I have before going out.
Quote from: Jenne on December 08, 2006, 07:36:59 PM
LHX, that sounds like the real definition of altruism for Teh Really Real World(tm).
I just have this theory that we don't do anything for others, ever, that doesn't somehow serve our own needs best, however those needs manifest themselves.
i was typing a response, but then i got confused
did you agree with me or disagree?
i assumed disagree, but that might just be because im generally cranky right here
if it makes any difference, i was being dead serious:
do things for self, and your environment benefits
do things for your environment, you wind up interfering, stepping on toes, and everything gets crossed up
i dont like to quote Crowley, but he said it:
"do as thou wilt..."
A few years ago, I had "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" explained to me as "really" meaning that once you get settled in to what you're really supposed to be doing in this life, the universe will get out of your way and let you do it. It sounds like that's similar to what you're saying - take care of yourself first and foremost, and the rest of the universe will take care of itself. Wait for something else to take care of you because you're busy taking care of other things instead, and, well, you'll be waiting a while.
And in the process of typing that, I suddenly remembered this passage from Alice in Wonderland:
"If everybody minded their own business," the Duchess said in a hoarse growl, "the world would go round a deal faster than it does."
Quote from: LHX on December 08, 2006, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: Jenne on December 08, 2006, 07:36:59 PM
LHX, that sounds like the real definition of altruism for Teh Really Real World(tm).
I just have this theory that we don't do anything for others, ever, that doesn't somehow serve our own needs best, however those needs manifest themselves.
i was typing a response, but then i got confused
did you agree with me or disagree?
i assumed disagree, but that might just be because im generally cranky right here
if it makes any difference, i was being dead serious:
do things for self, and your environment benefits
do things for your environment, you wind up interfering, stepping on toes, and everything gets crossed up
i dont like to quote Crowley, but he said it:
"do as thou wilt..."
I was agreeing, but not explicitly.
And I agree with the above, to a point, as well. Unfortunately, I need to eat--I think this flu just won't leave me alone, and this sort of ahem...exposition needs more fuel for the brain cells.
I'll share my thoughts anon.
If I recall my business management assertiveness training it went something along the lines of - assertive is selling a situation that benefits you, to a person who also benefits from it. Choices are - Make yourself happy at the expense/to the exclusion of everyone else or make everyone else happy along with you. One makes for a happy, fluffy goodvibe kinda world the other would seem to get increasingly difficult.
Quote from: DJRubberducky on December 08, 2006, 08:54:02 PM
A few years ago, I had "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" explained to me as "really" meaning that once you get settled in to what you're really supposed to be doing in this life, the universe will get out of your way and let you do it. It sounds like that's similar to what you're saying - take care of yourself first and foremost, and the rest of the universe will take care of itself. Wait for something else to take care of you because you're busy taking care of other things instead, and, well, you'll be waiting a while.
Sounds quite Taoist.
Well, being the nasty little Classical Realist I sometimes am, my opinion is that ideals are highly dangerous things to have just flapping around the place. Many criticisms within foreign policy thought about the NeoConservative ideology is its too idealistic and too impossible. Practicality is overlooked in the name of idealism, even to the point that you hurt yourself. And then, at the end of the day, when you're bloody and beaten and hated quite justly by the world, you can at least say "I was doing the right thing!"
And thats a criticism I feel is valid. Ideals mean you have an idea of what is right and wrong for others, without even knowing them (an impressive trick, I'm sure you'll agree). "Let justice be done, though the world may perish" is the motto of every idealist everywhere. When ideals and action fuse, everyone is in for a world of hurt because, as I keep saying, perception is imperfect. You cannot know what is best for everyone and trying to force such things is going against the natural grain of things, for want of a better explanation.
Ideals can inform action, but they can never directly influence them. To use a politics example again (excuse me, but it is my area of knowledge) the invasion to invade Iraq could have easily been made on human rights and self determination of the populace (republican) ideals. But then you would have critically assessed the situation on the ground and in country, projecting how current actions and decisions will impinge on the future prospects of the country. Instead, the ideals of a liberal democracy springing up overrode these critical checks on policy, to the current detriment.
So if I apply that to my own ideal, namely that of more personal freedom, I have to think about how this benefits me and everyone else around me. For example, there would have to be certain checks involving consent in actions, and a certain amount of focus on the social contract. But if by infringing on my freedom it shows that the same method can be used against others personal freedoms, suddenly my ideal becomes the interest of others as well. It is not so much an ideal as a meta or foundation-ideal, a precondition for other ideals to take hold.
On an entirely personal note, I tend to agree with this vein of though concerning self benefit with the general good. I am not what is perceived by people as "good" because I think it is right, but because it suits my interests more than if I were to not be. Equally, when I do not act in a way that is perceived as good by people, its because its in my own self interest to be so and that benefit outweighs any potential cost.
Sorry, if this makes little sense, I did not have a very good night's sleep and I am in fact going back off to bed right now. I'll revise or expand on this later as I am able to.
:mittens:
Just goes to show you can never make assumptions about people you meet on teh internets. I had you down as a dyed in the wool idealist. :-D
(back to drawing board and comfy armchair of psychology)
the only reasonable ideal would seem to be a vague one
something along the lines of 'good is better than bad'
being a part of something that can endure is better than being a part of something that is self-destructive by default
Quote from: LHX on December 09, 2006, 01:03:28 PM
the only reasonable ideal would seem to be a vague one
something along the lines of 'good is better than bad'
being a part of something that can endure is better than being a part of something that is self-destructive by default
Not to be forgetting the law of entropy. Keep an open mind and never assume that being right is enough (or even plausible)
'right'
what does that even mean?
its more like:
'are you able to adjust to new situations? or are you going to get washed away?'
and getting washed away is really just another new situation anyway
does water erode land masses because they were wrong?
no
we dont call it tragic either
that law of entropy is key
Quote from: LHX on December 09, 2006, 01:15:56 PM
'right'
what does that even mean?
its more like:
'are you able to adjust to new situations? or are you going to get washed away?'
and getting washed away is really just another new situation anyway
does water erode land masses because they were wrong?
no
we dont call it tragic either
that law of entropy is key
Law of entropy - any structure will eventually collapse
(not to be confused with thermodynamics theory of the same name)
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 09, 2006, 02:12:33 PM
Law of entropy - any structure will eventually collapse
unless the structure takes the form of a pile of dirt
(http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/egypt/architecture/pictures/gizapyr.jpg)
Quote from: LHX on December 09, 2006, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 09, 2006, 02:12:33 PM
Law of entropy - any structure will eventually collapse
unless the structure takes the form of a pile of dirt
(http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/egypt/architecture/pictures/gizapyr.jpg)
Will eventually collapse. Some structures last longer is all. Even itty bitty particles break down on all sorts of itty bitty levels.
Entropy my whole if an ideal crumbles it might be useful later on. I prefer constant dynamic change, I will be 100 percent certain on something so I don't get bogged down and restrained and end up hesitating beyond the point of action, I always consider the fact that I might be wrong and am ready to accept the fact without wounded pride or dwelling or regrets.
doubt leads to idleness and excessive needless introspection if not kept in check.
besides if I am wrong about something there is nothing to stop me turning 180 on it.
hypocritical in appearance but in Truth the view changes.
my high ideal and mantra is: "find contentment where you can and help others do the same."
Quote from: faust on December 09, 2006, 03:00:16 PM
Entropy my whole if an ideal crumbles it might be useful later on. I prefer constant dynamic change, I will be 100 percent certain on something so I don't get bogged down and restrained and end up hesitating beyond the point of action, I always consider the fact that I might be wrong and am ready to accept the fact without wounded pride or dwelling or regrets.
doubt leads to idleness and excessive needless introspection if not kept in check.
besides if I am wrong about something there is nothing to stop me turning 180 on it.
hypocritical in appearance but in Truth the view changes.
my high ideal and mantra is: "find contentment where you can and help others do the same."
Doubt is a crippling condition that comes from the belief that you can be right, therefore, it's also plausible you are wrong. All is experimentation. "I suspect this be the case" replaces "I believe". Then do it and it either turns out good or bad, in your's and others opinions. Doesn't mean you were right. Doesn't mean you are right. Just means it worked out okay. On to testing next theory. "Oops no, that was a complete disaster but fuck it - you liv and learn" replaces "Oh my god no ... how can this be? I was right and look whats happened - my beliefs have been shattered"
yeah its true
you cant really discuss collapse without re-build
from that angle its a matter of embracing the process
there is still a lot of people who dont like the idea of things 'collapsing' - especially when the structures collapsing might be people
peoples mortality is a parasitic topic, and is a minefield due to everyones different beliefs of what will occur after they die.
I dont fear death but I do find physical pain unpleasant.
I believe that when I die I will be gone(make the most out of life)... or
I wont be (still no idea what occurs, make the most out of life and do my best to enjoy it and make others enjoy it).
collapse is only collapse if you are too attached to they item. change is always change and will alwas be there for you if you want it.
basically - it is a unknown element
the problem we face is that we have been taught to fear the unknown
thats how it breaks down
if you teach a child otherwise, they will grow up and live accordingly
its a tough frame of mind to bust out of
personally - ive tried to give up 'believing' anything and accept the 'wait and see' approach
i have hunches - but fucked if i know for certain whats inside that box
I prefer it that way, hey guys lets spoil the ending for those of you who want no alarms and no surprises.
Seemed appropriate
(http://www.bluecatsden.com/t16tower.jpg)
I dont like coming across that image. could not pick anything more positive?
:troll:
living in a garden
with online access
Quote from: faust on December 09, 2006, 04:20:25 PM
I dont like coming across that image. could not pick anything more positive?
:troll:
It IS a positive image. Blow apart your entire worldview for fresh and exciting approaches to reality. You should nuke the tower of preconceived notions and beliefs at least once a day and certainly no less frequently than once a month. This will ensure all belief systems are weeded out before they take hold.
Bad tower!
Fall down.
All better.
There are far better images of dramatic phallic explosions on the net, yes I liked big ben getting blown up in V for vendetta, but I still find the image a little ham handed,
however its one thing to complain, quite another to act apon it, If I can find a better image of drastic change in my images folder I will post it.
anti-belief belief system FTW ITT
maybe, or maybe not, I would not want to hold to an ideal.
sorry I should probably go troll somewhere till I am in a better mood.
http://fileanchor.com/83978-r.jpg
http://fileanchor.com/83980-r.jpg my personal favorite.
http://fileanchor.com/83982-r.jpg
nothing even close to dramatic change in my folder, however the above(nws) are the closest I could find
Quote from: faust on December 09, 2006, 05:16:10 PM
There are far better images of dramatic phallic explosions on the net, yes I liked big ben getting blown up in V for vendetta, but I still find the image a little ham handed,
however its one thing to complain, quite another to act apon it, If I can find a better image of drastic change in my images folder I will post it.
Study tarot for great insight and supermadguickkkkule powers beyond comprehension. Learn to make freinds, influence people and turn them into a newt.
*edit*
http://fileanchor.com/83980-r.jpg FTW
MW IS LEAKING
Quote from: faust on December 09, 2006, 05:29:37 PM
MW IS LEAKING
Wiccan wouldn't know what to do with a tarot card if it came with a training video and a free pair of intelligence magnifying space pants.
no but I am sure they could hang them around the house where people can see them so they can look deep and mysterious.
ARG, lets stop the derail, I will if you will
Quote from: faust on December 09, 2006, 05:33:32 PM
no but I am sure they could hang them around the house where people can see them so they can look deep and mysterious.
ARG, lets stop the derail, I will if you will
Oops! My train of thought has no rails, gets kinda messy from time to time.
"Universal Ethical Rational Egoism is the Machine(tm)"
I'll explain that now.
If there is a single overarching concept which permeates all realms of human behavior and natural phenomenon as we know it, it is the tendency for items to behave in ways which benefit themselves. Within humans it is easiest to see and explain, and boils down to people acting in a suprisingly enlightened manner as to what actually benefits themselves.
Some philosophers believe this is an ideal to be strived towards, but it is more so an inescapable fact of existence which limits the range of our behavior. We are unable to actually make a real decision, because decisions don't exist. Between Determinism, Causality, factors of enviornment, and Universal Ethical Rational Egoism, we are absolutely bound and held to a narrow and unbreakable set of possible behaviors.
To me, that is the very essence of the Machine.
Why I say it isn't ethical, is because anything which prohibits freedom must be unethical. Even if it is something that prevents us from harming ourselves or others, any barrier in the way of the actual will of whichever transcendental "us" that must exist somewhere else, is unacceptable and unethical.
Aside from that, Universal Ethical Egoism boils the human soul down to a mechanical animal, cheapens all of our actions and makes them all, whether we know it or not, selfish actions. Concepts like love, caring, kindness, humility, and friendship all become cynical spectres of themselves, reminding us of the truly shallow waters of our reality.
I hope some of that made sense.
Quote from: faust on December 09, 2006, 05:23:15 PM
maybe, or maybe not, I would not want to hold to an ideal.
sorry I should probably go troll somewhere till I am in a better mood.
http://fileanchor.com/83978-r.jpg
http://fileanchor.com/83980-r.jpg my personal favorite.
http://fileanchor.com/83982-r.jpg
nothing even close to dramatic change in my folder, however the above(nws) are the closest I could find
This shit needs HIMEOBSed, stat!
I have a huge folder of the stuff that I have no time to himeobs
Quote from: LHX on December 09, 2006, 05:16:37 PManti-belief belief system FTW ITT
that would be discordianism then
or antidesdiscordimentarianism
Quote from: triple zero on December 13, 2006, 04:41:00 PM
Quote from: LHX on December 09, 2006, 05:16:37 PManti-belief belief system FTW ITT
that would be discordianism then
or antidesdiscordimentarianism
Discord the word suggests to me that our dogma should forever remain at loggerheads with each other and therefore never canonised. So far it's the only phrase in it's class that I'm willing to describe myself as adhering to since it implies the antithesis of aherence. Even things like nihillism and solipsism (which I keep getting accused of quite frequently) aren't terms I would adopt in describing my own personal anti-belief, belief system.