I'm starting this thread because, truly, the answer is NOT as obvious as it's usually treated.
If you are USED to your cell, if you've decorated it, feted it, shared it with others on holidays, why leave it? Sure, the destruction of your cell was fun, it was personal growth and whatnot, but if you have no plan of action, and you liked quite a bit about your cell...why leave?
It's not about leaving it.
It's been said, that a jailbreak is nothing more than leaving one cell for another.
The thing is, most people don't even know they're in jail. They think that the inner reality they live in was externally created.
RAW said, "if it was found to be possible that you could choose whether or not you were happy or sad, creative or stagnant, optimistic or pessimistic, wouldn't you want control over that?"
It's about control, freedom, and self-guidance. But above all, it's to realize that no matter what you do, you're still in prison, so don't think you have "the" "answer", or that you know "it all".
So what makes it "worth it" then?
I'm serious, here.
I've seen people, ok, like my dad, who FOUGHT their whole lives to be something they didn't want to be, to be the anti-what-they-thought-they'd-be, and where do they end up? Smack in the middle of said thing. That they didn't want.
Why would struggle be worth it in the end, then? What is it that makes it all worth the while, if all you do is fail in the end?
"A true initiation never ends."
Don't like where you are? Smash it, and rebuild.
Don't like what you've done to the place? Smash it, and rebuild.
Just bored? Smash it, and rebuild.
Stagnation is for dead ponds.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/plato.html
one of the few things plato wrote that i actually like
may help you out abit jenne
You have to have the energy to do that in order for that to work however.
Stagnation is not always a symptom of boredom or perplexity.
No one ever said this would be easy, Jenne...
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on December 12, 2006, 06:48:55 PM
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/plato.html
one of the few things plato wrote that i actually like
may help you out abit jenne
Thanks, TI, I've read the allegory of the cave before--it's a very nice example of how we are manipulated.
I guess what I'm getting at, is that there are plenty of people born to be free, but they don't have the desire or will to do so, even after they've been made aware of where they are.  For various reasons.  So why should they leave?  Or try to leave?  What compelling reason would bring them out and make them want to get rid of the cell they are in if they have more impetus to stay, all things being equal?
If one recognizes they are in one cell of a larger prison and then chooses to stay in the cell they've decorated, etc. at least they've recognized it.
Personality would play a key role in this.  
People talk about "fight or flight".
It would seem, when talking about The Black Iron Prison you have to add another option.  Or can remaining in your original cell, on an informed basis, be labled fight or flight?  
Quote from: LMNO on December 12, 2006, 06:50:18 PM
No one ever said this would be easy, Jenne...
Aha.  Yup.  THAT I knew.
but when you are...well...converting your people to the BIP way of thinking...how do you get them to reach beyond critical mass?
What do you appeal to?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 12, 2006, 06:51:38 PM
If one recognizes they are in one cell of a larger prison and then chooses to stay in the cell they've decorated, etc. at least they've recognized it.
Personality would play a key role in this.
People talk about "fight or flight".
It would seem, when talking about The Black Iron Prison you have to add another option. Or can remaining in your original cell, on an informed basis, be labled fight or flight?
I don't know...but this is a good answer. If you've fought, but you have no will to flee...where does that leave you? I also agree personality is part of it. There are plenty of people willing to fight ANYthing...but creating something new is not in their makeup.
Same for those who want to flee, but have no will to fight their way free to get to that point.
One possible freedom paradigm:
1) You can only free your mind. Your body remains in jail.
2) It's not only jail if you think it is: Before you free your mind you don't even know it is. But it is.
3) Once you free your mind you can, to an greater extent, decide for yourself if is or not.
Or:
1) Jail holds body - body holds mind
2) Mind leaves body - mind leaves jail
Well, when we went beyond BIP into The Machine,Ñ¢ studies, I suggested that the Machine,Ñ¢ occured when people forgot they were in prison, and recoiled in horror at the baser aspects of their cell. ¬†Even if you don't want to bust out, simply remembering the imperfect nature of their perceptions will help you.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 12, 2006, 06:55:04 PM
One possible freedom paradigm:
1) You can only free your mind. Your body remains in jail.
2) It's not only jail if you think it is: Before you free your mind you don't even know it is. But it is.
3) Once you free your mind you can, to an greater extent, decide for yourself if is or not.
Or:
1) Jail holds body - body holds mind
2) Mind leaves body - mind leaves jail
I like this too...though this second part may be harder for people to understand unless they've done it themselves...
That's why one of my approaches is scientific and biological, to establish some concrete limitations, before I get into the psychological/emotional/metaphysical limitations.
Quote from: LMNO on December 12, 2006, 06:55:29 PM
Well, when we went beyond BIP into The Machine,Ñ¢ studies, I suggested that the Machine,Ñ¢ occured when people forgot they were in prison, and recoiled in horror at the baser aspects of their cell. ¬†Even if you don't want to bust out, simply remembering the imperfect nature of their perceptions will help you.
That's still the initial phase, though...of finding a way out.  I'm talking about after that, I guess.  You tried busting out...what's next?
I know I'm talking to cross purposes here...but there's this assumation that people want to or be able to leave or continue to fight once they've destroyed a wall or many walls.  Not everyone's a gladiator.  Not everyone has the ability to fight beyond their means and continue to do so.
So, I guess what I'm asking is, what's the next step for those people?  It's easy to be defeated by yourself, and I guess this is one way of that happening.  How to get past that point and back on track?
Maybe that's just too personal a thing to be answered too easily...?  
Quote from: LMNO on December 12, 2006, 07:00:27 PM
That's why one of my approaches is scientific and biological, to establish some concrete limitations, before I get into the psychological/emotional/metaphysical limitations.
Ok, that makes sense. Foundations in concrete before moving on to the more esoteric areas that have more demystification to be wrought, in the end.
My thinking is that if people remember they're in prison, they'll ask more questions, to remember that they might not be seeing the whole picture. You don't have to bust out, you just have to remember your limitations.
What do you mean, "Not seeing the whole picture?"
Your prison (Reality Grid, Filter, Belief System, etc) cannot possble show you the entirety of external reality, and sometimes even blinds you to some of your internal reality.
So if you go around acting like you know everything that's going on, you're walking through the world mostly blind.
True. But you have to want to know what's around the corner to actually look.
When the student is ready, and all that shit.
We point out the bars, and see what happens. Some get it, some don't. Them's teh breaks.
Ah. Teach to them that would have the ears to listen.
Got it.
You know, Jesus said something similar.
Safety can be quite appealing.
Even if that perceived safety is in the jaws of a bear trap.
Heh.  Guess I should say, "It is reported that"...because with the anecdotal nature of the Bible, nothing in that thing is certifiable.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 12, 2006, 07:35:29 PM
Safety can be quite appealing.
Even if that perceived safety is in the jaws of a bear trap.
Totally. It's this above that I'm talking about. How to defeat the defeatist.
Quote from: Jenne on December 12, 2006, 07:34:35 PM
Ah.  Teach to them that would have the ears to listen.
Got it.
You know, Jesus said something similar.
Son of a bitch stole my act.
LMNO - currently heading up the SSOOKN messiah/world teacher division.
8-)
It is a hard thing.  I've known people who question their belief.  Their belief in God, religion, whatever.  They know, they have that nagging thing going on inside that there is an excellent chance they are just on a wild goose chase.  But, it feels safe.  Their friends and family are doing it.  They have so many experiences and memories attached and co-mingling with it.  
To extricate yourself from that nest, that warm security blanket, can be very, very scary.  
I think of that ritual the Amish go through where they are out in "civilization" for a time and then they basically have a choice between losing their former life, family and all, in favor of this new, foreign life.  That has to be a heartwrenching thing to go through.  
EXACTLY, RWHN!!! Exactly!
See, I have too many in my acquaintance just like this. Too too many. Sigh.
It's the old, "better the enemy you know than the friend you don't" fear, really.
bump. I was looking for threads to add to Faust's list and I'm not sure if this one is appropriate or not, but it had some good stuff and wanted to share.
Jenne, a little late to respond but as you know I've been away a while.
IMO the first obsticle to overcome is for a person to admit their faults. Then we need to decide which of our faults we like and which ones we don't. "Breaking out" is a process of coming to terms with who we are and what we are going to do about it if anything. Earlier you mentioned that one had to want to know what was around the corner to look. I disagree. The normal propulsion of life will force a person around many corners in simple day to day living. Some corners we may chose to not look around but so many others are out of our control. It is not what we are given to work with but what we choose to do with it that helps in large part to determine who we are as individuals. Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
theres a list?
Bump for a pretty good discussion.
Quote from: Mangrove on December 12, 2006, 07:40:27 PM
LMNO - currently heading up the SSOOKN messiah/world teacher division.
8-)
This is the Most True post on this board, ever.
:lulz:
I think we need revive some discussions on this sort of track. BIP stuff was some POWERFUL juju.
BTW: thanks, Freeky, for unearthing this.
[
Quote from: Jenne on December 12, 2006, 07:36:11 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 12, 2006, 07:35:29 PM
Safety can be quite appealing.
Even if that perceived safety is in the jaws of a bear trap.
Totally. It's this above that I'm talking about. How to defeat the defeatist.
...and the trap springing may just be THAT thing. Maybe there just isn't anything else that'll do the trick. Anyways, legs grow back usually. So no big whoop, there.
Had a buddy who worked real hard to avoid being seen as the scheisty, conniving, manipulator he had somehow already convinced himself he was. I like poker, so I said fuck it, run your games on me, I've got this neat trick I want to show you. Every time he had that "gotcha" moment, where he knew he'd hooked me, I'd bite and leave a little bookmark, or whatever. Usually it involved saying or doing something fairly random that didn't seem meaningful in the moment, but was memorable in context. Other times I'd hint explicitly, say exactly what I was up to by way of some general chit-chat, "Yeah, I don't call bullshit when I see it, I call bullshit when I've got a reason to...so anyways, when did you say you were going to be able to do that thing with the stuff?" Not the first time I had played this trick, I already had some standard practices.
I like to think I set it all up (or let him set it up, as it were) and then carefully picked my moment to drop the bomb, but I think it's more truthful to say that I ran out of patience, and the hinting was getting boring, and the bullshit was REALLY getting on my nerves so I got a little under my own game and let irritation choose my moment for me. Either way, I wasn't much of subtle about it, and me and him and hyper-awareness and harsh-truth all had a bit of a moment of openness. I do enjoy the long-form prank, probably much more than Ann Landers would recommend, but this wasn't a grudge fuck. I genuinely cared about the dude and the efforts he went to to snow himself were taking a toll on him. He looked ready to "see the bars" and I had loosened him up well before we even got to that point, so when that point came I pretty much just had to point to a few specifics, let him piece the rest together, then sit down and shut up, while the birds and the wind and the chatter of the street and even the silence screamed the truth. I looked at him and smiled and that's when all hell broke loose.
He wasn't ready for a jail-break, he still was frantic trying to stay out of prison. I became an agent for THEM. He'd covered all his tracks and burned every scrap and trace of everything that tied him to "the crime" but there was still the secret, and I must have been staring dead at it, because when he saw me, and the birds, and the wind and the chatter of the street and the silence all somehow screaming his secret in unison, torturing him into a confession, a judgement, and an execution, my smile read as a mortal threat and he acted accordingly. He gestured at attacking me, but decided to run instead. He perceived safety in the jaws of the bear trap and saw only terror when confronted with a presence outside it. He had already sentenced himself. His BIP was a fugitive's flight path.
He eventually slipped up and found himself with 18 months to kill. He came out a bit rejuvenated, but still in the same bear trap. There's plenty of opportunities in county to run your games, even if it's just for extra Ramen noodles and a bit of privilege. He hit the ground running as soon as he was off paper. It looked like 18 months had been 2 minutes and the rest of his lifetime was pretty much where he was right at that moment. But then one night the bear trap snapped shut. He'd been playing with some guys who don't enjoy games as much as I do. He knew better, but what else can a scheisty, conniving, manipulator really do, after all. One night some of those guys were out driving and happened to see him riding his moped on the side of the road. They pushed on the accelerator and aimed...and they didn't miss.
It was pretty fucking gnarly as it was but he took about a billion times less damage than any human who's tasted Jeep-rage should expect. He lost a rad moped, which sucked, but his legs grew back as they usually do, so no big whoop there. Mainly though, it was THAT thing. In fact it was probably the only thing it could have been. I don't know that he could have closed his case on anything less, nor found any other religious awakening that would have allowed him to continue right on with his sinful ways.
No telling how to defeat the defeatist...but I think, maybe, the defeatist can't be defeated...only freed...by defeat. Maybe. Or maybe that's just another steaming pile of sound-bite I pinched off too amuse myself. Definitely something to ponder.
Quote from: Jenne on December 12, 2006, 06:27:10 PM
I'm starting this thread because, truly, the answer is NOT as obvious as it's usually treated.
If you are USED to your cell, if you've decorated it, feted it, shared it with others on holidays, why leave it? Sure, the destruction of your cell was fun, it was personal growth and whatnot, but if you have no plan of action, and you liked quite a bit about your cell...why leave?
IMO you can get enlightened, see how things really are, then return back to the cage, but now with a deeper understanding of the world around you.
"Before enlightenment you chop wood; after enlightenment you chop wood." That kind of stuff.
I suppose at least when you are armed with this enlightenment, if it is genuine, you are now able to see the way out when things look like they aren't working.
But that's the problem with a lot of people. They just can't see that they are stuck OR that there are other options, other paths, other directions, other possibilities, other environments, other contexts.....
And it is the cause of so much suckitude in this world.
You leave the cell because you can't smoke your cigarettes in them anymore.
I've always loved the minimum-security prison break, "you're ruining it for the rest of us" analogy. Does it matter whether there are 2 guards or 20? You ain't goin nowhere, fool.
You can't leave and go back in. The leaving itself is part of the illusion and and if you awake from it, you'll find yourself curled-up, fetal position, tucked into the very furthest corner from the entrance. Freezing.
There are a few things you're just going to have to accept: you are not any better than anyone else, prole number 23. You don't have shit figured out for certain. You're feeling around in the dark and as soon as you think you found an opening, if you're one of the smart ones, you'll realize that "opening" is your asshole and you've had your finger jammed up in it the whole time. I ran into this very problem in Nigel's race thread and it has a profound effect on me every time. A smart man pulls his stinking finger from his ass, recoils and goes "How..?" And attempts to carefully think about how to wash it off.
A stupid man tries to hide his stinkfinger in shame by placing it in his mouth.
Quote from: navkat on April 05, 2012, 04:01:11 PM
I've always loved the minimum-security prison break, "you're ruining it for the rest of us" analogy. Does it matter whether there are 2 guards or 20? You ain't goin nowhere, fool.
You can't leave and go back in. The leaving itself is part of the illusion and and if you awake from it, you'll find yourself curled-up, fetal position, tucked into the very furthest corner from the entrance. Freezing.
There are a few things you're just going to have to accept: you are not any better than anyone else, prole number 23. You don't have shit figured out for certain. You're feeling around in the dark and as soon as you think you found an opening, if you're one of the smart ones, you'll realize that "opening" is your asshole and you've had your finger jammed up in it the whole time. I ran into this very problem in Nigel's race thread and it has a profound effect on me every time. A smart man pulls his stinking finger from his ass, recoils and goes "How..?" And attempts to carefully think about how to wash it off.
A stupid man tries to hide his stinkfinger in shame by placing it in his mouth.
:lulz: SUCH a vivid mental image.
Quote from: Nigel on April 05, 2012, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 05, 2012, 04:01:11 PM
I've always loved the minimum-security prison break, "you're ruining it for the rest of us" analogy. Does it matter whether there are 2 guards or 20? You ain't goin nowhere, fool.
You can't leave and go back in. The leaving itself is part of the illusion and and if you awake from it, you'll find yourself curled-up, fetal position, tucked into the very furthest corner from the entrance. Freezing.
There are a few things you're just going to have to accept: you are not any better than anyone else, prole number 23. You don't have shit figured out for certain. You're feeling around in the dark and as soon as you think you found an opening, if you're one of the smart ones, you'll realize that "opening" is your asshole and you've had your finger jammed up in it the whole time. I ran into this very problem in Nigel's race thread and it has a profound effect on me every time. A smart man pulls his stinking finger from his ass, recoils and goes "How..?" And attempts to carefully think about how to wash it off.
A stupid man tries to hide his stinkfinger in shame by placing it in his mouth.
:lulz: SUCH a vivid mental image.
I'm gonna remember that one.
It's up there with Oscar Wilde and Lao Tzu. :lol: but srs.
Quote from: navkat on April 05, 2012, 04:01:11 PM
I've always loved the minimum-security prison break, "you're ruining it for the rest of us" analogy. Does it matter whether there are 2 guards or 20? You ain't goin nowhere, fool.
You can't leave and go back in. The leaving itself is part of the illusion and and if you awake from it, you'll find yourself curled-up, fetal position, tucked into the very furthest corner from the entrance. Freezing.
There are a few things you're just going to have to accept: you are not any better than anyone else, prole number 23. You don't have shit figured out for certain. You're feeling around in the dark and as soon as you think you found an opening, if you're one of the smart ones, you'll realize that "opening" is your asshole and you've had your finger jammed up in it the whole time. I ran into this very problem in Nigel's race thread and it has a profound effect on me every time. A smart man pulls his stinking finger from his ass, recoils and goes "How..?" And attempts to carefully think about how to wash it off.
A stupid man tries to hide his stinkfinger in shame by placing it in his mouth.
Where were you in '06 when we were fighting off the naysayers?
That was perfect.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 05, 2012, 06:14:51 PM
Quote from: navkat on April 05, 2012, 04:01:11 PM
I've always loved the minimum-security prison break, "you're ruining it for the rest of us" analogy. Does it matter whether there are 2 guards or 20? You ain't goin nowhere, fool.
You can't leave and go back in. The leaving itself is part of the illusion and and if you awake from it, you'll find yourself curled-up, fetal position, tucked into the very furthest corner from the entrance. Freezing.
There are a few things you're just going to have to accept: you are not any better than anyone else, prole number 23. You don't have shit figured out for certain. You're feeling around in the dark and as soon as you think you found an opening, if you're one of the smart ones, you'll realize that "opening" is your asshole and you've had your finger jammed up in it the whole time. I ran into this very problem in Nigel's race thread and it has a profound effect on me every time. A smart man pulls his stinking finger from his ass, recoils and goes "How..?" And attempts to carefully think about how to wash it off.
A stupid man tries to hide his stinkfinger in shame by placing it in his mouth.
Where were you in '06 when we were fighting off the naysayers?
That was perfect.
I think she's turning into some kind of goddamn prophet or some shit.
:)