Principia Discordia

Preamble: This was a difficult review to write. Warring in my head are three points of view,Äî

• The Discordian who wants to Wake Up and to Wake Up everyone around him
• The random guy on the bus who found the pamphlets I left him
• A devil,Äôs advocate that dissects things on principle. Toro! Toro!

These guys disagree on just about everything, so my opinions may not appear fully consistent. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I wanted to be thorough as a service to the project.



My Report on the Black Iron Prison Project
by Cramulus, Professor Emeritus, basically some guy

Abstract:
Overall, the BIP pamphlet carries a strong message, which is extremely useful to those trapped in sleepwalker mode. However, it suffers from poor packaging - its ideas are presented in a way which may repel the casual reader or random pedestrian. Overall, I am hopeful that this, and future incarnations of the project will be effective in shaking the public.

In short:
If people could just realize how stupid they are, they,Äôd stop being so stupid!

Article:
I love the Black Iron Prison pamphlet. With the assistance of the OBNOXIOUS JERK CABAL, I've spent years putting together and passing out subversive / enlightening pamphlets, posters, and public performance. I've handed out my own stuff (total crap), and a great deal of stuff that other people have created. (most of it total crap) The BIP pamphlet succeeds where many other Discordian / Illuminating tracts fail - it felt like a slap in the face, even to someone who thinks he's got a toehold on figuring out this fractillian merry-go-round. And I thought I WAS awake!

But I think the BIP suffers from poor packaging. The format in which these ideas are presented, unfortunately, make them less palatable. I understand that you're trying to be really open and translucent about what the motivation of the pamphlet is. I can smell the lack of manipulation, and it smells good - the intent seems to be to give people the tools and let them figure out reality on their own. That rocks. But the tone is often condescending, intentionally offensive, cynical, and in many places shows contempt for the reader. There are likely people who were digging the pamphlet, or were on the border of getting the "point", until it got really Righteous. At that point, it's easy to classify it as the same sort of propaganda Jehovah,Äôs Witnesses hand out. Citation?

• Page 16-17 sets up the same "us" versus "them" mentality that mainstream religions and cults use to foster an in-group mentality. Midway down page 17, the author refers to "them" as "these beings"... Personally I react very negatively to dehumanizing the opposition. It's very Holier-Than-Thou and it stinks. More Us v Them on page 26. Are "they" the enemy or the people you're trying to "wake up"?


• page 21-22 is a lot of seething contempt for the general public, which presumably includes the reader and friends ("What is it with you people?"). I understand that this particular passage is trying to shake people into making their own decisions about pop culture et al, but if the target audience is people who do like QPCs and American Idol (the sleepers), you,Äôre not going to crack the ice by shouting the word sheep at them over and over again.


• Page 5 suffers from the same problem. It,Äôs like ,ÄúYou people, OR SHALL I SAY SHEEPLE might learn a thing or two if you listen to me. Stop being such comatose slugs!,Äù The implication is that the writers have it all figured out (even if they later say that they don,Äôt). If the reader agrees with the writers and does what they tell him, he,Äôll become a higher class of being too. Evangelical? Perhaps. Does this read like goth poetry? At times.

Certain parts of the pamphlet are pure gold. Among them:

The anecdote on page 3-4 reminds me of (sorry) a Hagbard Celine quote  "You're still trapped in thinking of it as left versus right. We're up versus down!" Hell yeah! (Unfortunately this point is almost sacrificed by appealing to liberals against conservatives on p25)

Page 7 is also really well written. It explains WHY you,Äôd want to see the BIP. The 7th-8th paragraphs are the real meat here. ,Äú,Ķthe more people are able to think for themselves, the less willing they become to exhaust themselves at someone else,Äôs command,Ķ,Äù Its either rare or well done, depending on how you like your meat.

Page 9 says ,ÄúThe time has come for you to start thinking for yourself.,Äù That,Äôs kallisti-gold on the page and couldn,Äôt be printed bold enough.

The description of the nature of The Machine,Ñ¢ on page 10 makes me want to stand up and shout HELL YEAH. I showed this to a Discordian friend while stinking drunk, and days later, this is the only paragraph he could remember about it. Particularly the part about focusing on the component parts rather than the whole picture.

Page 12 has a line: ,ÄúThe notion that some nebulous group is out there subverting people with imagery and printed words designed to alter moods and behaviors is simply science fiction of the wildest, most escapist variety.,Äù This is some delicious self-reference.

As I read, I wondered,Ķ If it,Äôs worth it to be self-liberated and self-aware, why do the writers sound so pissed off and frustrated? I mean, you,Äôre trying to sell us freedom, but the tone of the pamphlet sounds like the authors are a bunch of brooding, bitter, cigarette smoking, echoes of Tyler Durden. Is that the reality I want? Well the longer paragraph at the bottom page 15 addresses the question Why Bother. That Why Bother is a big selling point and shouldn,Äôt be ignored.

The way page 16 ends in a couplet (,ÄúWe call it pollution, toxicity. It takes many forms and it,Äôs increasing rapidly,Äù) is really tight. It has a sort of lyrical quality to it which resonates well with me.


Page 19 ends with ,ÄúIf you accept that as truth, I wonder what you will believe when you are eventually convinced that it is a lie.,Äù BaBAM, kickass finishing move. I think p 18-19 is a really great spread.

The Herman Hesse quote on 23 is seriously hot shit. I think it,Äôs the most important part of the whole pamphlet. p23-24 is pure poetry. I especially like the line ,ÄúPissing all over someone else for doing something you don,Äôt personally approve of is MORE pointless than how pointless you think what they,Äôre doing is!,Äù

Page 25-26 is really tight. It,Äôs really nice to see a concrete example to support all the metaphor.

Inconsistent Audience:

I had trouble figuring out who this pamphlet is addressed to. If it,Äôs addressed to random people on the street who pick up the pamphlet, it should omit the stuff aimed specifically at Discordians and SubGs.

The target audience is definitely ,Äúthe public,Äù on page 8.
The target audience is definitely ,ÄúDiscordians,Äù (and their ilk) on page 12.
The target is People on the Web on page 23 (,Äú,Ķhere on this website, talking about this goddess,Ķ,Äù)

Generally the tone flips between adding nuance to already established Discordian issues (like the Machine and the Con), and trying to shake up people who are pinned to their sofas. These are two different audiences, two slightly different messages, and I think they should be approached in separate (but equal) ways. Trying to cover the whole spread in one pamphlet decreases the effectiveness of both. For example: Most Discordians feel (perhaps incorrectly) that they,Äôve left the couch. Maybe you can convince them otherwise. But be clear ,Äì when I first read the pamphlet I (in part) thought ,Äúoh, they,Äôre talking to fingerlicking mouthbreathers, not me. I already hate American Idol.,Äù




Miscellaneous Stuff I Don,Äôt Like
The introduction on page 2,Ķ I don,Äôt like it. I don,Äôt think it does a good job at describing exactly what the prison is. ,ÄúIt,Äôs your life, it,Äôs the cold trap of your existence.,Äù (that line made me hurk a little ,Äì I think it reads like teen goth poetry). So how exactly is that a prison and why should I hate it? Note - I think I understand what you,Äôre talking about, and I,Äôm not asking for an answer ,Äì I,Äôm just pointing out how the guy on the bus may feel about this vitriol. The first page of text is the make-it-or-break-it page of the whole pamphlet, and it,Äôs basically only frustration and metaphor. It needs something concrete to anchor.

It,Äôs possible to explain the two man con on page 4 without making the reader feel stupid for not having read American Gods. Likewise page 26 references Kant, Hume, and Locke, who are probably strangers to those people on the train.

The ,ÄúTUC,Äù mentioned on the bottom of page 5,Ķ what does that stand for? I,Äôd either spell it out or delete it. Same with SSOOKN.

This may be purely a matter of taste,Ķ
Page 14 begins by attempting to describe TEH NATURE OF REALITY. I hurk a little bit every time someone else tries to ,Äúexplain,Äù reality to me. That passage goes on to very effectively argue that we ignore / are unaware of most of reality. But then the consecutive point on p15 is that there might be great fun in exploring the reality that,Äôs currently invisible to us. Though I,Äôm hip to the metaphor that,Äôs been set up, the passage literally suggests that there,Äôs great fun in being aware of my feet inside my shoes, and being aware of the post-it note barely visible in my peripheral vision. It,Äôs plausible that the dude on the bus missed the point with all the metaphor.

We all have a little chunk of brain at the top of the spine called the Reticular Formation which filters out unnecessary information, like the temperature inside my shoes, the sound of the fluorescent lights, the entire world when I,Äôm asleep, etc. I trust its decisions. Yeah, it,Äôs filtering out a LOT of information, but is that information relevant?

That big Why Bother question is answered several times throughout the pamphlet by demeaning the people who don,Äôt ,Äúget it,Äù. Citation: page 4, ,ÄúNot wanting to beat the shit out of very stupid people is hard work.,Äù The authors must be pretty smart to see all this stupidity! In answer to the question ,ÄòWhy bother?,Äô Because I want to be smart like you, can I send you a membership fee and jump behind your smart rebel label? :-P


Page 20 is mostly metaphor. I think the point gets lost without something concrete to anchor it.

Appearance:

There,Äôs a bit that can be done to make this pamphlet easier to read.

Page 6, paragraph 2. Should begin with ,ÄúYou,Äôre,Äù, not ,ÄúYour,Äù. Page 8, paragraph 2, I think it should be ,Äúensure,Äù not ,Äúinsure,Äù. Page 21, the SSOOKN quote should drop the word ,ÄúFor,Äù. I know, I know, that,Äôs really anal. But since its in print it should matter.

Some of the leaves are out of order. Maybe I,Äôm printing it wrong, or doing something dumb, but I tried a zillion different ways, and no matter how I paginate it, p18-19 is followed by p12-13, and p8-9 is followed by p16-17. Luckily, it doesn,Äôt really seem to matter.

I think the large blocks of text (read: the entire pamphlet) need to be broken up with some graphics or quotes or what-have-you. This is your opportunity to punch the reader right in the limbic system. Some lighter images could go a long way to soften the austere bitterness (unless you really like the bitterness ,Äì personally, I think it,Äôs unattractive). I know that this commutiny has no shortage of hysterical graphics.



Conclusion:

I,Äôm equally impressed by the BIP pamphlet as I am with the PD.com community. You guys have shaken off the mummy-wrappings of ancient Discordia and created a new episkipos which is, perhaps, even more radically free than previous incarnations. It was really refreshing to realize that there are people who are putting a new spin on Discordia, even though sometimes some seem to be a bunch of elitist, cantankerous, endearing assholes (you what I mean). Likewise the BIP perfectly reflects the commutiny ,Äì it,Äôll enlighten you ,Ķif you,Äôre tough enough to stomach it.

In My Humble Opinion it can use a bit of levity. What attracted me to Discord when I was something like 17 years old was that it was the first time someone tried to convince me of something important without cramming it down my throat. It tasted good so I swallowed it on my own. The humor and lack of self-importance is what (according to The Prankster and The Conspiracy) Greg and Kerry thought would save Discord from Dogma. And I don,Äôt just mean LAIL dada humor.  Maybe absurd silliness doesn,Äôt have a place in this document, but I for one would be able to take it more seriously if it didn,Äôt take itself so seriously.

And on that note I acknowledge that I am also quite full of shit. All of this long wind emanates, perhaps, from a narrow, stubborn mind. I sure couldn,Äôt do any better than you guys have done, but I,Äôm hoping that all this jazz will somehow help. Looking back on this post, I find it pleasantly absurd that my report on the BIP is approaching the length of the pamphlet itself. But whatever.

Um, I shall leave you with a llama,


A llama

Holy shit, the Proffessor's got the goods.

X will mindgasm when he sees this.  :-D

Good points, prof.


We should really conceive of a second edition.  Do some editing.  We pretty much threw that shit together raw.


What would you suggest would be the best essay to start with?

some valid points are made.  I can see how the amount of vitriol that ended up in the BIP could be a deterrent.  Of course as you can see in other threads, I don't think we've ever really nailed down who the audience is.  But, I think that's where some salesmanship comes into play.  The people I've shared it with in person I try to give a bit of a context of where it came from and what it is about.  That way, they aren't totally blindsided by the fits of hate-shitting that come out.  I also agree with the comment about visuals.  Unfortunately, we were all so into the writing that there weren't any visuals offered up.

There has been a standing offer of anyone who wants to submit graphics (and knows how to place them in a PDF file) should do so.

i think the confusion of audiences is really the most important point of them all. it is in fact a problem that seems to crop up qutie often with some of the rants posted here. when i want to print them off, i think "is this useful for the random person who's going to find it? or is it rather some 'motivational' text for discordians sort of?"

one other thing - got reminded when i just printed it out - is that some parts of it appear rather oriented towards a US audience. it already starts with the image at the front: a variation on the american flag.

a lot of people over here are perfectly capable of understanding and reading english, but references to america in specific might have a peculiar effect on them:
- the image at the front might be interpreted as the american flag, symbol for consumerism, or kind of the way it's used in the movie Fear&Loathing. this might not be a bad thing.
- but when a piece of text specifically talks about America, people not from America will think "ah those poor saps in America, being deluded and all, fortunately that kind of stuff could never happen over here"

And vice-versa for Cain's rant.


So, we seem to be wanting to break this into fours:

Non-Discordian
Discordian
American
Non-American

The most I can do is try to re-vamp my rants, and re-submit them.  I think I'm aiming for Non-Discordians.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 04:10:53 PMAmerican
Non-American

i would suggest just leaving out specific "locale" information?

given that we're battling a global problem (in short: stupidity of a specific kind), the descriptions could be worded globally right?

In terms of target audience - I'm always preaching to the 'marginals' or 'borderlines' with humour that they'll only get by crossing the line. Therefore it should appeal to real true discordians too - but that's academic.

I don't want to make a piece of work that'll make the people in this forum laugh - when I do that it gets posted here.

For general public consumption I want to take someone who's disenchanted with the world but still plugged into the con and make them piss themselves laughing for reasons they'll have to look deep inside themselves to explain properly. Maybe attaining a bit of clarity in the process.

Maybe this bears some relevence to this project. Maybe not.

I see an editor in the making ITT.

Quote from: triple zero on January 24, 2007, 04:17:45 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 04:10:53 PMAmerican
Non-American

i would suggest just leaving out specific "locale" information?

given that we're battling a global problem (in short: stupidity of a specific kind), the descriptions could be worded globally right?

When reading the original PD, did you "get" the references to Nixon, et al?  Did they feel alienating?

What I mean is, we make many pop cultural references in these writings.  Should the all be excluded?

Also, I think we should keep in mind that we should not present a unified message.

One of the things I like about the BIP et al is that each person is coming from a different angle, a different style, even a different opinion of what the metaphor is.  To me, it helps keep in perspective that this is all a metaphor, and personal interpretation counts for a lot.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 04:21:25 PM

Quote from: triple zero on January 24, 2007, 04:17:45 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 04:10:53 PMAmerican
Non-American

i would suggest just leaving out specific "locale" information?

given that we're battling a global problem (in short: stupidity of a specific kind), the descriptions could be worded globally right?

When reading the original PD, did you "get" the references to Nixon, et al?  Did they feel alienating?

1 - no i didn't "get" them, probably still don't, in fact.

2 - well, kind of. but since there was already so much gibberish in the PD, i didn't really separate between bits i didn't understand cause they were (apparent) nonsense and bits i didn't understand because i didn't "get" them (due to lack of background knowledge).
in fact there are probably still new bits i would "get" if i were to reread the PD, take the Law of Fives which has taken on quite a bit more meaning after i first encountered it.
but the BIP-pamphlet isn't the PD and it's not written in the 60s either. If we could (or want to) get away with a background noise level of nonsense to overshadow the mistakes or cloudy inside-jokes parts, we wouldn't be having this discussion, i think.
also i didn't know what a "starbucks" was when i first read it, nor a whole lot of american cultural icons (that weren't really imported in europe yet).

but it's not really my point that people will understand certain things without the proper background knowledge. it's more that american culture references attach a certain kind of hollywood/movie/commercial and therefore unreal feeling to a text.

especially with the horrible troofs that ought to be revealed in this BIP pamphlet, people will be on the lookout for excuses of why this doesn't apply to them, why they don't need to start thinking for themselves Right Now, why "everything will be allright with ME" etc. if the pamphlet is obviously speaking about something in a different continent, and especially a continent about which they have heard already so many bad things about (lack of freedom, patriot act, gay marriage, etc etc etc are not really ignored in the media here) ...
think about (ok this is exxagerating a bit but) finding such a pamphlet, telling you to wake the fuck up, loosen your chains, stand up against the man get organized start the revolution etc and then finding some clues that the pamphlet in question was written not only in but also about China :) sure you give it an interested read, but then dismiss it as something "that does not really apply to you".
now certainly europe and america are culturally a lot more close than that, but as i said, with difficult and horrible information like in the BIP, the same effect might apply.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 04:25:05 PMAlso, I think we should keep in mind that we should not present a unified message.

One of the things I like about the BIP et al is that each person is coming from a different angle, a different style, even a different opinion of what the metaphor is.  To me, it helps keep in perspective that this is all a metaphor, and personal interpretation counts for a lot.

ok, i like that. meaning it would help if one or more of the texts would obviously come from a european. would give the pamphlet an even more global attitude, adding extra importance and urgence.

Perhaps all that needs to happen is to preface in the first paragraphs where yr coming form.  or something.

certainly, that would help. at least to get them to start reading.

the other problem is to not have them start dismissing, "oh that would never happen in MY backyard", which can happen when the troof starts to get too horrible and suddenly the location appears far away from your backyard.

So Prof, just so I can do some editing,Ķ

1.  Is it that you don,Äôt like the pg 2 essay, or that it shouldn,Äôt be first?  I can clear up some of the Goth-ish poetry, but it,Äôs kind of hard to describe the bleakness of the Prison without a little, you know, bleakness.  It,Äôs true, it could be the most metaphor-driven piece in there.  Perhaps a bit more clarification on how one,Äôs life is their prison?

2.  With the Nature of Reality essay, would it go easier for you if the title was changed?  Also, a clarification could be made to point out that I,Äôm not talking about feeling your toes, but that we,Äôre tuning out really important stuff, as well.

3.  I,Äôll see what can be done with page ordering.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 05:04:36 PM

3.  I,Äôll see what can be done with page ordering.

Is there an online version with normal page ordering? If not it might be worth doing too.

Well, the way we put it together first was that I arranged it in MS Word, and then sent it to Synaptyx for PDF-ing.

If you wanna just go ahead, take the PDF and have at it, just click the link in my sig.

Prof, I just re-printed and compiled the PDF of the BIP in my signature, and the pages do go together.  Pages 14 and 15 are the exact middle of the booklet, 14 on the left, and 15 on the right.  Now, you can arrange the rest of the pages, making pages 16 and 13 a double-sided photocopy with 14 and 15.  Go on down the line with 12/17 + 11/18, etc.  It should work.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 05:04:36 PM
So Prof, just so I can do some editing,Ķ

1.  Is it that you don,Äôt like the pg 2 essay, or that it shouldn,Äôt be first?  I can clear up some of the Goth-ish poetry, but it,Äôs kind of hard to describe the bleakness of the Prison without a little, you know, bleakness.  It,Äôs true, it could be the most metaphor-driven piece in there.  Perhaps a bit more clarification on how one,Äôs life is their prison?

I think its major problem is that by paragraph 2 its trying to sympathize with the reader's frustration, but it hasn't yet explained why the reader should be frustrated. Paragraph 3 ("feel that?") is really strong, and describes the prison pretty well. I think it should lead the page.

This is a matter of taste, but I dislike being addressed as "kid" by a pamphlet.

The fifth paragraph ("Whats that?") sympathizes with the reader's panic and claustrophobia, but I'm not sure the reader has yet figured out what you mean by the prison, much less had time to react to it.

I agree about the bleakness - the intro needs to be a little bleak to set the tone for the rest of the pamphlet.

Quote
2.  With the Nature of Reality essay, would it go easier for you if the title was changed?  Also, a clarification could be made to point out that I,Äôm not talking about feeling your toes, but that we,Äôre tuning out really important stuff, as well.

Yeah I think if the title were changed it would be solid gold. To be more accurate, the passage isn't talking about the nature of reality, it's talking about perception of reality, or reality filters or tunnels or whatever.

edit: On page 15, second paragraph ("And this 'reality' is what we base...") could use a concrete example of how Authorities define reality for us. The risk is if you use a really concrete example, like evolution vs creationism, you risk refocusing the discussion on that specific type of reality. ...did that make sense?

PS - you're now at 51 posts.  Good luck.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 06:10:36 PM
PS - you're now at 51 posts.  Good luck.

Bring it on, bitches!

PPS - your avatar looks like a girl.


Also, thanks for the input.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 05:24:14 PM
Prof, I just re-printed and compiled the PDF of the BIP in my signature, and the pages do go together.  Pages 14 and 15 are the exact middle of the booklet, 14 on the left, and 15 on the right.  Now, you can arrange the rest of the pages, making pages 16 and 13 a double-sided photocopy with 14 and 15.  Go on down the line with 12/17 + 11/18, etc.  It should work.

I'm confused... should I print like half of it and then feed in the paper in for the second side? I've been using my printer's "2 sided printing" option and it almost works fine.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 06:15:47 PM
PPS - your avatar looks like a girl.


Also, thanks for the input.

You know I was thinking exactly the same thing but the irony is I think that the glasses, moustache and pipe are causing most of the effect. Go figure

Ah... I think the pages might be out of order in the queue.

Lessee....


I am now referring to the pages in the text, not the actual pages in the PDF.

Print the following page combinations together as double sided:

1/28 + 2/27
3/26 + 4/25
5/24 + 6/23
7/22 + 8/21
9/20 + 10/19
11/18 + 12/17
13/16 + 14/15


Does that make sense?

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 06:24:13 PM
I am now referring to the pages in the text, not the actual pages in the PDF.

Print the following page combinations together as double sided:

1/28 + 2/27
3/26 + 4/25
5/24 + 6/23
7/22 + 8/21
9/20 + 10/19
11/18 + 12/17
13/16 + 14/15

Okay I see what's going wrong here. I can't print it all in one pass because the proper pages aren't adjacent to each other in the pdf... for example page 10/19 is on page 3 of the PDF and page 9/20 is on page 6 of the PDF, so they're not going to print correctly naturally. In a perfect world, they would be on adjacent pages.

I believe it would work if they were formated like this:

PDF page 1: p 14+15
PDF page 2: p 16+13
PDF page 3: p 12+17
PDF page 4: p 18+11
PDF page 5: p 10+19
PDF page 6: p 20+9
PDF page 7: p 8+21
PDF page 8: p 22+7
PDF page 9: p 6+23
PDF page 10: p 24+5
PDF page 11: p 4+25
PDF page 12: p 26+3
PDF page 13: p 2+27
PDF page 14: p 28+1

Then you wouldn't need to assemble anything, just fold it in half.

You'd better talk to tech support about that.

When I printed out whole books, I tried them double sided and found it didn't work. (or i'm an extremely stupid monkey)
So I just made sure the cover was on front and the rest of the pages were random.
If they want the info, they'll figure it out.

The other interesting thing is that some printers don't give you a choice of alignment, so some of the pages will be upside-down.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 07:13:00 PM
The other interesting thing is that some printers don't give you a choice of alignment, so some of the pages will be upside-down.

And thus we reach the problem I had.  :-(

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 24, 2007, 07:33:16 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 07:13:00 PM
The other interesting thing is that some printers don't give you a choice of alignment, so some of the pages will be upside-down.

And thus we reach the problem I had.  :-(

Fixable by flipping every other page in the PDF.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 07:35:51 PM

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on January 24, 2007, 07:33:16 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 07:13:00 PM
The other interesting thing is that some printers don't give you a choice of alignment, so some of the pages will be upside-down.

And thus we reach the problem I had.  :-(

Fixable by flipping every other page in the PDF.

...

Hadn't thought about that...

 :ECH:

uhh....so when did having a badly edited text containing conflicting ideologies and no graphics become an obstacle to widespread acceptance? sounds strangely like the bible to me....  :wink:

srsly though, i think that the prof has done a fantastic job of analysing the text and explaining the pros & cons as he sees them. plus he even knows about the reticular formation, so i'd given him double points for that.

for your continuing education - SSOOKN (as you might see in some sigs) is the 'semi-secret order of kabbalistic navigators'. not only do few people know what SSOOKN means, even fewer understand what a semi-secret kabbalistic navigator actually is. as such, i doubt whether it makes a difference if the abreviation or full title is used.

i happen to agree with you that being overly caustic, jaded and/or cynical could be an obstacle to wider readership & attention. however, i do feel that (possibly due to it's placement contextually speaking) you might not have got the gist of the part about 'not wanting to beat the shit out of stupid people is hard work'.

i was looking at it as an exercise in restraint. i'd be very surprised if you had not experienced moments in your life whereby, the complete ignorance of others impacted you in a way that made you exceedingly angry & exasperated. perhaps it would be better qualified if it was something along the lines of "not wanting to completely freak out when some people happen to behave very stupidly"?

because you're new here (congrats on getting 50+) you know as little about me as i do about you. however, if you stick around you will find that i've never really been one for the 'us vs them' or marginalizing/dehumanizing etc. ask around or visit the bar  :-D for the record, i do not hold the belief that i'm really wise, cool & clever and that everyone else is some species of moron for me to abuse. hell, i was even nice to the ultra-conservative bush lover who posted here, demanding that we give dubya a fair hearing!

nevertheless, your lengthy BIP post is a most worthy contribution and could be the spark for new editions and pamphlets. give yourself a pat on the back.

best wishes,

mangrove
(imperator of SSOOKN)

I just wanted to point out for the record I had absolutely no problems organizing the pamphlet after printing it out.  Of course, I suppose having publishing experience gives me an unfair advantage.

And I also would like to suggest that if we do a re-edit of this that the original is left in-tact in some form somewhere.  Maybe I'm too sentimental, mushy, and out-of-touch, but I have a fondness for the thing the way it is. 

While I appreciate the Prof's remarks, and some do hold some validity, what we put together were some quality rants, diatribes, explorations, explanations, etc., etc.,   There is always room for improvement, of course, but one should also have a starting point to reflect on and this first version of the BIP, for better or for worse, is it. 

I had an idea once to start a religion (yeah you can mock) Part of the mission was to produce an annual bible, a concept I always thought the mainstream religions could benefit from adopting - "If your ideology hasn't produced anything new this year then your god is dead, please step down from the pulpit."

Maybe the BIP (or a document on those lines) could become a bible like this, albeit under a different monicker. All it would take is a month or so before december make an announcement and anyone interested can spend a couple of days trawling through the years posts, looking for little nuggets to squeeze in, then the rest of the time would be spent deciding on a final shortlist and production of said 'holy book'. Anyone interested gimme a shout about mid October.

RWHN, I have the original on several different computers, so I wouldn't worry.

Quote from: SillyCybin on January 24, 2007, 08:28:02 PM
I had an idea once to start a religion (yeah you can mock) Part of the mission was to produce an annual bible, a concept I always thought the mainstream religions could benefit from adopting - "If your ideology hasn't produced anything new this year then your god is dead, please step down from the pulpit."

That's a really cool idea. It's like, what's Discordia about this year? Sort of a holy periodical.

It'll also help decrease reliance on old jokes and memes. That way when n0bs come into the board and are like LOL HIMEOBS (or whatever) you can point at last year's journal and say "Dude, HIMEOBS is so 3172."

This is all smelling so... organized.

Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 24, 2007, 08:37:36 PM

That's a really cool idea. It's like, what's Discordia about this year? Sort of a holy periodical.

It'll also help decrease reliance on old jokes and memes. That way when n0bs come into the board and are like LOL HIMEOBS (or whatever) you can point at last year's journal and say "Dude, HIMEOBS is so 3172."

HIMEOBS IS THE FUTURE

Repaired by orbital bombardment. This WILL NOT happen again. Are we clear?

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 08:39:46 PM
This is all smelling so... organized.

has this ever happened on this board before?

Yup.


No one wanted to actually step up and help out.  So it died.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 08:46:22 PM
Yup.


No one wanted to actually step up and help out.  So it died.

what was the project? my memory's blank.

There were a couple of things.  But there was talk of a magazine/periodical, I believe.

(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/Freestylelife.jpg)

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 08:50:44 PM
There were a couple of things.  But there was talk of a magazine/periodical, I believe.

i see. well, i'll tread very lightly and whisper in hushed tones until the new projects hit the streets.

[doesn't want to curse something that resembles real activity]

Excellent!  Thank you, Prof. Cramulus.  Yeah, I might review our material as well with what you said in mind, this week.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 08:50:44 PM
There were a couple of things.  But there was talk of a magazine/periodical, I believe.

I must have missed that.  That could have been interesting, an e-magazine of some sorts.

Quote from: SillyCybin on January 24, 2007, 08:28:02 PMI had an idea once to start a religion (yeah you can mock) Part of the mission was to produce an annual bible, a concept I always thought the mainstream religions could benefit from adopting - "If your ideology hasn't produced anything new this year then your god is dead, please step down from the pulpit."

Maybe the BIP (or a document on those lines) could become a bible like this, albeit under a different monicker. All it would take is a month or so before december make an announcement and anyone interested can spend a couple of days trawling through the years posts, looking for little nuggets to squeeze in, then the rest of the time would be spent deciding on a final shortlist and production of said 'holy book'. Anyone interested gimme a shout about mid October.

this is a terribly good idea!

I want Silly's mag.
brownies.... mmmm....

damn yall motherfuckers are on a roll over here


also just so the Prof knows - the whole organization aspect of things was a real point of contention back in May/June and led to some real interesting discussion


it really forced us to be cautious about coming across as tho we had 'answers'

Very interesting. I'll have to take a lurk through there/then.

Quote from: LMNO on January 24, 2007, 08:50:44 PM
There were a couple of things.  But there was talk of a magazine/periodical, I believe.

The problem there revolves around the problem of organization (gravity OFUK!) that hasn't been resolved.

Quote from: LHX on January 26, 2007, 02:47:58 AMalso just so the Prof knows - the whole organization aspect of things was a real point of contention back in May/June and led to some real interesting discussion

though now that we sort of see that we can actually get shit done and produce valuable (kind of) content, it seems that we have a whole lot less problems with the idea of organisation.

well, ok, nobody has stepped up as a manager, editor or whatever (yet?), but I remember some people (myself included) initially worrying about *any* organized set-up for discordian productions.

That's probably why the pamphlets seem so... unprofessional.  Since no one really wanted to play editor, we pretty much threw it together and said, "go".


What the Prof is doing (honest criticism of another's work) is pretty ballsy, and I appreciate the effort.

we walk a thankless road

who wants to be editor for that?


we ride the hot hand - and its prolly gonna stay that way (<--- fearless prediction ITT)

"ride the hot hand"?



:lol:


Is that some sort of porn-type lingo?

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 01:21:42 PM
"ride the hot hand"?



:lol:


Is that some sort of porn-type lingo?

hahaaaaaaaa naw i think its from sports

baseball in particular



tho in all honesty, porn has been on my mind a lot lately


there is something to that idea of naked ladies providing the backdrop of a philosophical discussion

We need to film a philisophical debate against a green screen, and then merge it with choice clips from Deep Throat, or something.

Wouldn't be discordian without a subliminal-ish flash of goatse. I bet when that fella made his bunghole smile for the camera he never figured he'd become an institution.

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 12:59:56 PM
That's probably why the pamphlets seem so... unprofessional.  Since no one really wanted to play editor, we pretty much threw it together and said, "go".


What the Prof is doing (honest criticism of another's work) is pretty ballsy, and I appreciate the effort.

Personally, I like the "unprofessional" look of the pamphlets.  As far as organization, it seems part of Discordian nature to really not be able to formally organize in any way.  But, I don't think that's a bad thing.  It is clear we have a nebulous-core of people dedicated at the very least to chewing on the ideas.  We just need a couple of people who are willing and able to put the ideas together from time to time, hopefully with not too much time elapsing in between.

Well said, RWHN.  The organization of the thing overcrowding the purpose is usually the heralding of the end of the purpose altogether.

But don't let me alarmism creep in, anyway, because I've got spoiled goods when it comes to organization of anything of this nature.

I was also thinking about it, and I kind of like the idea of leaving undefined "Discordian" words/phrases in it.  Kind of like "A Clockwork Orange".

If there are strange words sprinkled throughout, it might make people curious.  At least, it would make me curious, and I kind of want to be appealing to people like me.

good things take time to prepare

especially when you are looking to do things that nobody did before


and so you have no point of reference to work from

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 06:38:01 PM
I was also thinking about it, and I kind of like the idea of leaving undefined "Discordian" words/phrases in it.  Kind of like "A Clockwork Orange".

If there are strange words sprinkled throughout, it might make people curious.  At least, it would make me curious, and I kind of want to be appealing to people like me.

maybe we could link that up wiff the SSOOKN notions we had floating around on the BIP forum before the crash

Remind me of those...

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 06:38:01 PM
I was also thinking about it, and I kind of like the idea of leaving undefined "Discordian" words/phrases in it. Kind of like "A Clockwork Orange".

If there are strange words sprinkled throughout, it might make people curious. At least, it would make me curious, and I kind of want to be appealing to people like me.

Yeah that goes to the target audience thing.
Make them hungry. If they look for the food, they are kindred spirits.
If they need to be force fed they wouldn't really belong anyway.

That's how bobbies are made.

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 06:40:40 PM
Remind me of those...

i cant really remember fully

Mang talked about some sort of compendium - i cant remember the word he used for it tho

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 26, 2007, 02:41:33 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 12:59:56 PM
That's probably why the pamphlets seem so... unprofessional.  Since no one really wanted to play editor, we pretty much threw it together and said, "go".


What the Prof is doing (honest criticism of another's work) is pretty ballsy, and I appreciate the effort.

Personally, I like the "unprofessional" look of the pamphlets.  As far as organization, it seems part of Discordian nature to really not be able to formally organize in any way.  But, I don't think that's a bad thing.  It is clear we have a nebulous-core of people dedicated at the very least to chewing on the ideas.  We just need a couple of people who are willing and able to put the ideas together from time to time, hopefully with not too much time elapsing in between.

I think the "unprofessional" look of the pamphlets unfairly target the anarcho-identity crowd.

I want to appeal to a wider audience and that means some graphic design and illustration,Äîwhich I'd be more than happy to do or collaborate with other so inclined parties.

Graphic design is a nonverbal appeal that isn't particularly conscious, and goes towards your credibility.  It's also a lot of work that I'd volunteer for. 

Of course, I didn't quite get a toehold in the BIP project so who am I to steer it's reception?  Well, nonetheless, I like you guys and would like to facilitate your messages getting out there.

I think not being able to formally organize is an impediment.  I think some of you sockfuckers don't want to reach a wider audience and deal with the problems of increasing our collective numbers.  Probably because on some level you're happy with the social dynamics that work with a smaller group.  It's cozy.  That's why you're more than willing to produce a booklet in a style easily written off as "leftist whack-job" from the very first glance.  I should know,ÄîPortland, OR is fucking full of similarly styled zines only more about aBoLiShInG pRiSon! or boring ass interpretations of situationism or bad poetry.

Or maybe I'm off base here.  Might as well get it off my chest.

Net, I hereby charge you with producing illustrations for the BIP and the Machine,Ñ¢ pamphlets.



LMNO
-sock fucking master.

Quote from: LHX on January 26, 2007, 06:41:53 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 06:40:40 PM
Remind me of those...

i cant really remember fully

Mang talked about some sort of compendium - i cant remember the word he used for it tho

crap...i can't remember. gimme a moment or too. [sigh]
seems that i keep saying things on the internet and then not remembering them.

Quote from: Netaungrot on January 26, 2007, 06:46:12 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 26, 2007, 02:41:33 PM

Quote from: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 12:59:56 PM
That's probably why the pamphlets seem so... unprofessional.  Since no one really wanted to play editor, we pretty much threw it together and said, "go".


What the Prof is doing (honest criticism of another's work) is pretty ballsy, and I appreciate the effort.

Personally, I like the "unprofessional" look of the pamphlets.  As far as organization, it seems part of Discordian nature to really not be able to formally organize in any way.  But, I don't think that's a bad thing.  It is clear we have a nebulous-core of people dedicated at the very least to chewing on the ideas.  We just need a couple of people who are willing and able to put the ideas together from time to time, hopefully with not too much time elapsing in between.

I think the "unprofessional" look of the pamphlets unfairly target the anarcho-identity crowd.

I want to appeal to a wider audience and that means some graphic design and illustration,Äîwhich I'd be more than happy to do or collaborate with other so inclined parties.

Graphic design is a nonverbal appeal that isn't particularly conscious, and goes towards your credibility.  It's also a lot of work that I'd volunteer for. 

Of course, I didn't quite get a toehold in the BIP project so who am I to steer it's reception?  Well, nonetheless, I like you guys and would like to facilitate your messages getting out there.

I think not being able to formally organize is an impediment.  I think some of you sockfuckers don't want to reach a wider audience and deal with the problems of increasing our collective numbers.  Probably because on some level you're happy with the social dynamics that work with a smaller group.  It's cozy.  That's why you're more than willing to produce a booklet in a style easily written off as "leftist whack-job" from the very first glance.  I should know,ÄîPortland, OR is fucking full of similarly styled zines only more about aBoLiShInG pRiSon! or boring ass interpretations of situationism or bad poetry.

Or maybe I'm off base here.  Might as well get it off my chest.

in the latest issue of one of Toronto's weekly newspapers, the feature was about independent magazines that garnished all sorts of awards and accolades and respect, but ultimately shut down because the people running it got no financial support from anywhere, and the romance of producing a publication ran out after a little while

we have no reason to walk that path


i like the idea of producing things and broadcasting messages, but this would require some serious discussion to avoid pitfalls



PLUS
we have to maintain the all important element of maintaining that revolving door ability that we have so that people can jump in and slip out as they please

As someone who was a music editor for a zine, I can attest to the fading glory that independent publication producing.



Fuckin' brutal.  Fun for a while, tho'.

Quote from: Netaungrot on January 26, 2007, 06:46:12 PM

I think not being able to formally organize is an impediment.¬† I think some of you sockfuckers don't want to reach a wider audience and deal with the problems of increasing our collective numbers.¬† Probably because on some level you're happy with the social dynamics that work with a smaller group.¬† It's cozy.¬† That's why you're more than willing to produce a booklet in a style easily written off as "leftist whack-job" from the very first glance.¬† I should know,ÄîPortland, OR is fucking full of similarly styled zines only more about aBoLiShInG pRiSon! or boring ass interpretations of situationism or bad poetry.

Honestly I think it has more to do with people here having a lot on their plates than worrying about the integrity of the clique.  I don't see formal organization really being possible unless someone here is filthy rich and can afford the time AND money.  

That's definitely part of it RWHN, probably a bigger part than my amateur psychology angle. (case in point: this hasty reply)


We could work on the financial and flexibility angle, LHX, especially me.  I has some connections, but I couldn't do it by myself.


Ok, I'll do some b&w illustrations for BIP 2nd ed. LMNO.  Graphic design for the whole thing plus illustration would take me entirely too long.  Prolly.  No, yeah it would. 

Quote from: Netaungrot on January 26, 2007, 07:12:12 PM
That's definitely part of it RWHN, probably a bigger part than my amateur psychology angle. (case in point: this hasty reply)


We could work on the financial and flexibility angle, LHX, especially me.  I has some connections, but I couldn't do it by myself.


Ok, I'll do some b&w illustrations for BIP 2nd ed. LMNO.  Graphic design for the whole thing plus illustration would take me entirely too long.  Prolly.  No, yeah it would. 

I can't draw worth a wank but I've had an idea for BIP tarot cards. The idea has only gotten as far as a couple of cards tho -

The Prisoner. Basically he's holding himself on a leash and he's holding a barred window up in front of him with his other hand, he's standing, alone, in paradise with a desperately depressed look on his face.

The walls - recursive geometric repetition of pop culture images

The Dupe - He's standing next to a huge prison wall, with a rope ladder descending from it. He's in the street outside, he's broken free. He's flipping it the bird with a demeted look on his face. He's in a cage.

Jus throwing it out here in case it's worth a fuck

Idea- throughout the work, we can insert images of the BIP tarot, allude to it, without ever having to actually produce a full one.


Fake esoterica, ftw.

You could solicit others' help to do the rest of the deck, Silly.  Unless you want this to be a sole effort.

But I've seen this done elsewhere (ahem, MW) where you solicit from people to do a card or a few cards and put them together to form a deck.

The result is pretty cool.

i like LMNO's idea of only doing a few illustrations that allude to the existence of a full deck.

from an SSOOKN point of view, the tarot as it stands now already contains (IMHO) plenty that is relevant to the BIP anyway.

the tarot was probably some renaissance geeks' version of BIP in the first place.



(by renaissance geeks, i meant geeks who lived in the period of the 14th to 17th centuries as opposed to ren-faire geeks.)

I have the Scarpini deck...I totally get what you're saying, Mang!

Quote from: Jenne on January 26, 2007, 07:30:12 PM

You could solicit others' help to do the rest of the deck, Silly.  Unless you want this to be a sole effort.

Like I said - I cant draw worth a wank. If I throw something out there it's up for grabs. Sole efforts I just do then show.

LMNO - I thot the partial thing would be a good idea