so
i guess it is generally assumed that 'morals' are not popular amongst a community like this - which is true
but the term moral seems to be interpreted differently by different people
morals
rules
ethics
no - we arent the type of people who remove our hats when entering a building
and we arent the type of people who adhere to much etiquette or social niceties
but
when it comes to some situations, the foot comes down
and it comes down with more ferociousness here than it does in a lot of other places
in a attempt to define what the discordian 'moral stance' is, it seems like it would be something along the lines of
'dont do anything that you wouldnt do publicly'
the current social structure and legal system allows a lot of people to do a lot of things (harassment, doing things in the name of 'art') that would wind up being dealt with harshly in a 'free' environment
consider the story of a woman who is a victim of harassment, and whose family members would be more than willing to lay a fierce beating down on the harasser, but they are powerless to do anything in this situation without facing (almost certain) punishment themselves from the 'authorities'
what deterrent does the aggressor have in this situation?
little if any - in a lot of ways, he is protected and is able to continue victimizing
like a kid that runs up and smacks the next kid, then goes and hides behind the teacher
at first glance, the criticisms of this approach are along the lines of
'you cant have vigilante justice'
'people should be allowed to have freedom to express themselves'
'what makes you guys think youre so right?'
well - take a look at the situation
if you perform a action which you get negative feedback for - investigate it to understand why
there is usually a foundation for it
there is a difference between disobeying circus-style 'social etiquette'
and
violating things that are trying to live or contributing to oppression
victimizing
abusing
extorting
exhausting
there is no laws or rules
but if that is the course of action you are planning to take, dont act surprised at the feedback you get
its not a matter of anybody being 'right'
but
if youre the one who decided to pull the pin from the grenade, why act surprised when it blows up?
blame the grenade, right?
that stance is played out
and to address the segment that is in a situation that 'cant control what they do' - i have sympathy for that
it doesnt seem like that situation will prevent a person from getting whats coming to them
just because some habits and tendencies can be tough to kick (or really tough to kick)
doesnt mean you still get to hold on to them
these are just hunches
This is a great discussion topic.
And as you point out not very cut and dry.
I guess for me, at least partially, my morality is based on family.
If someone were to pick on my family I would be motivated to lay down some pain, depending on what was happening and to what degree. But, another part of that morality is not getting myself in prison so I can be around to still watch over my family.
If, shudder the though, some muckrabbit were to come along and off my wife, I know I would be consumed with a desire for some bloodthirsty revenge. However, I still have a daughter to take care of. I would hope I would have the gumption and control to keep myself from getting imprisoned so my daughter isn't left completely alone.
Of course there is also the morality of being true to yourself. Not selling yourself out for money, sex, love, whatever.
There can be strong forces to pull us from ourselves and our "families".
Morality is probably like a medieval map. Not all of the borders are completely defined.
youre on point
there is some sort of dilemma here - because from another angle, it is cut and dry
if you experience or perceive injustice, then you take care of business
its simple as that
somebody fucks with your daughter, you go for the jugular and dont relent
but from that stance, i am sure somebody can argue that the path of revenge is a never ending spiral until there is nothing left
i am not so sure about that tho
there is a difference between being eager about revenge and being reluctant about doing what you have to do
there is a difference between destroying things and getting rid of a destructive element
there is a difference between destroying things and getting rid of a destructive element
Revenge is the backbone of justice, regardless of everything you hear and read to the contrary. Social justice is the idea that revenge should only be inflicted by a qualified (read: large enough) mob, but it's still revenge.
I think 'morality' is too often defined as "what you should always do." morality can't be static like that because there's always a difference between what you should do, what you can do, and what you must do.
morality has to be contingent upon the situation, and as many factors as you have time to consider, should be considered. so if some cockblister offs your wife or rapes your kid or says something nice about Jesus within 3 miles of your house, sure the first instinct is to drop a clusterbomb on his house and smite his family with a curse for 17 generations. but you can't always do that, unless you want to make things worse for yourself, like RWHN said.
in a vacuum, i agree with LMNO. i mean, our society places way too much importance on acting like you're getting along with some asshole you could care less about, putting up with retarded small talk when you'd rather introduce your heel to his uvula, saying "excuse me" and "bless you" at all the right places, and making polite euphemisms for everything from having sex to taking a piss. but given that that is the society where you live, and morality is just one code of conduct, like any other code of conduct, to achieve some goal or other; it stands to reason that morality should be as solid and steadfast as chocolate pudding, at least where it concerns action.
i guess all i'm saying is, let morality define your motivation, and let intuition and your brain define your actions.
Quoteno - we arent the type of people who remove our hats when entering a building
and we arent the type of people who adhere to much etiquette or social niceties
speak for yourself, I do but not to conform to others standards, rather to conform to my own.
when I pass someone on the street I will smile and nod, simply because I do wish them a good day.
I hold open the door for women give my seat up to the old because I feel in myself that it it is right for me as an individual. Its only when anyone talks to me that they will notice any major oddity, as I lack tact or inhibitions on any topic at hand and could say something that horrifies someone to think about it.
as to political morality; Societies function should not be to punish if someone commits a crime, but it is the case of, if you are selfish and take what you want with no inhibition, we will take more from you, its our only defense,
there are always going to be killers out there people will always have asshole elements, if there is no room in prisons for them, or the conditions are more of a torture then a deterrent, I guess I even agree with execution, but only if it is while they are fully sedated and it is painless.
It disgusts me how people want to watch out of vengeance as well.
Theft does not bother me so much any more, though I would never do it myself, I have never stopped anyone when I am at work, I honestly don't care if they are selfish enough to want some stupid dress from a clothes shop I am in.
War disgusts me as it is one selfish tribe after the wealth of another, I have yet to see a true case of 'Liberating an oppressed people" without selfish motivations.
most of this is probably full of holes, feel free to pick at them.
Ah morality...the common glue that gels people together so they can live more or less peacably and trustfully in one space together. Without going apeshit.
Morality is social and it's individual. It's also sliding in scale according to situation and according to the actors at hand. We are socialized into its usefulness early on, and we can make judgments about its efficacy when we age. Sometimes we are incapable of applying the morality we choose to adhere to simply because the choice is taken out of our hands. Sometimes we supersede society's dictates on our behavior (those happen to be more multiple than most would comfortably agree to or accept) and go beyond the accepted form of morality. The consequences of such actions meted out accordingly (unless you're a lucky bastard and you escape).
Some people think morality is a dirty word. Others exalt it to the highest heights.
To me, it's just another facet of humanity. We impose modes of behavior on ourselves and on others so that we can drive to the post office without being broadsided. Ends to a means.
but does this type of morality prevent people from going apeshit?
or does it just make things bubble under the surface?
im saying - people use these notions of 'morality' to dress a lot of shit up
its easy to appear 'moral' on the surface when all you have to do is meet a series of checks and balances
Both, I'd venture a guess. I mean, what makes hoo-mawns think they CAN live together...with a modicum of peace and prosperity?
(we've done it for ages and not managed to completely off ourselves yet, but who's to say for the future, eh?)
And as to your last point, well, yes, of course. Your "moral standing" in the universe is second only to your bank balance, after all.
At times, it seems that morality is the thing that balances out selfishness. Most of the behaviors describes as "amoral" can also be describes as selfish; that is, not taking the consequences of your actions further than your immediate self-gratification.
It seems like a good use of morality is when those around you, who are actually affected by your actions, are taken into consideration. This eliminates the "God" morals, and gives allowances for what you do in private.
Now of course, you might consider those who are affected by your actions, and ignore them, or not care. I say that's fine, as long as you openly recognize your impact on them, and are willing to face their objections.
That last bit is gonna take some more work to seal up the obvious holes..
The origin of morality must always be considered. Morality based on resentment and revenge (such as Christian/Muslim/Maxist morality) is always going to be self-defeating, petty and authoritarian.
Conversely, the morality of the ruling elite will always be divisive, based in exceptionalism and power. In both cases, morality is defined for a purpose, most of which goes over the head of those who follow it.
Morality based solely on the individual leads to the irrational madness of tyrants such as Periander of Corinth, or Idi Amin and Hitler for modern examples. Equally, morality based purely on humanitarianism and love of the masses leads to systemic terror and the State Machine of the USSR and other states.
Cain, in all the example of morality that you have given, your conclusions were negative.
Are there any origins of morality that lead to positive conclusions, in your mind?
If not, do you conclude that morals are a negative aspect?
Oh, there are positive aspects. I'm just doing my usual job of reminding everyone of the pitfalls.
Morality should be based both around the individual and the wider society, recognizing each as reliant on the other and the tension between them.
The individual morality eventually becomes egotistical, the mass eventually nihilistic. So what is needed is a morality that derives from the individual and is recognized as such, but because of what it is identifying with humanity in general.
Resentment is also basically passive as a moral base. It typifies inaction, envy and the creation of otherworldly metaphysics to condemn its enemies. A perfect example Christianity since the Roman Empire. Since then it has sought political control through condemnation and dehumanization of non-Christian enemies.
So necessarily this morality would have to have an active element to it, one that is not based on wanting control and increasing power, but on drawing a negative conclusion of what should not be done and what lines should not be crossed. A morality that defines itself both by what it opposes and its origins, but not by engaging in "culture wars" which so often typify moral debate.
Quote from: LMNO on January 30, 2007, 01:28:11 PM
Cain, in all the example of morality that you have given, your conclusions were negative.
Are there any origins of morality that lead to positive conclusions, in your mind?
If not, do you conclude that morals are a negative aspect?
I'll take it further, and I think I know the answer to this, are there any origins of morality that lead to positive connclusions for everybody?
Morality seems to be a two-sided coin. While some would applaud abortion rights as a positive moral others would chide it as a blasphemous, negative moral.
Another thought, in the PD there is the discussion about cultures being a group of people that have a reasonable amount of overlap in their grids. Based on the American Culture, it would seem that morality isn't an important component of that as you have several definitions of morality that exist in the culture.
One of the problems I have with morals is they seem to be very more-ish. Ten commandments woulda done me. George Carlin got it down to two. There are so many laws now in the rulebooks that it's theoretically impossible to obey them all.
Victimless crime - let's go there for a look at how stupid the whole thing can become. No such thing, according to the rulemakers and enforcers.
I'm with the Prodigy - Fuck 'em and their law. I got my own code of conduct. If it's not good enough for ya - do something about it - suggest plucking thy sanctimonious eye out.
Morals:
1. Don't betray.
2. Avoid debts and vendettas.
3. Pick your people.
4. Respect something.
6. Complex ethical systems are inhuman self-standards and you better just go by what the powerful entities enforce because when it comes down to it your ethics are just a set of behaviors that optimize your social status.
Quote from: Felix Mackay on January 30, 2007, 07:04:04 PM
Morals:
1. Don't betray.
2. Avoid debts and vendettas.
3. Pick your people.
4. Respect something.
that sounds more like sound advice than what people call morals
the fact that people somehow need to be told what 'good behavior' and 'bad behavior' is is immediately suspect
the only reason i can see for teaching any of that shit to kids is that they might lack a bit of foresight - but if you let them make a few mistakes, im sure they learn eventually
Quote from: LHX on January 30, 2007, 10:03:10 PM
the only reason i can see for teaching any of that shit to kids is that they might lack a bit of foresight - but if you let them make a few mistakes, im sure they learn eventually
agreed. kids need to know that the world WILL bite back. The better prepared they are for that the better. Also, it's good for kids to learn about certain things to keep them out of prison and other consequences that are going to limit their freedom of mobility.
Morality is their own journey as far as I'm concerned. Sure, my daughter is going to absorb a certain "morality" from my wife and I just from being around us. But, she's gotta calibrate her own compass. I'll keep her from killing herself, or someone else, but beyond that it's her journey. My wife and I will simply have the privelege of watching her as she pursues it.
damn
that sounds like the most reasonable approach to parenting in this modern society that i have ever heard
here's hoping.
I think it has to do with my upbringing. I was raised in a Baptist household and so "morality" was laid on fairly heavily. And even when I was older living with a woman I wasn't married to. I want to be able to have my daughter tell me my beliefs are BS because then I'll know, or have a good hunch, that she is processing information on her terms. I don't want her to feel like she has to hide it as I felt I had to when I was growing up.
this kind of "backlash freedom" approach can have its disadvantages as well.
they WILL want to rebel when they hit puberty, so what are they going to do? yes..
and expect her to some day, step up to you and say she might have liked a little more guidance or sturdy background thing perhaps.
maybe not even because she needed it, but because her friends did get it and she feels left out
speaking from experience a littlebit ..
i'm NOT trying to tell you how to raise your child really! (dont get me wrong)
i'm just saying, because my mother had a very clear idea about how NOT to raise me (like her parents), and perhaps in a few things swung a littlebit over to the other side.
it's all about balance.
and it's probably one of the hardest things to do :)
A child will always find something about their upbringing they didn't like.
I was brought up in an intellectual house, given lots of leeway and responsibility, but not too much emotionality. Not that they were cold to me, but didn't have enougth exuberance for my liking.
I really shouldn't complain. But sometimes, I do anyway.
exactly. you can never do it right.
I suppose the question is, "In what way do I want to fuck up my kid?"
Quote from: triple zero on January 31, 2007, 03:50:31 PM
this kind of "backlash freedom" approach can have its disadvantages as well.
they WILL want to rebel when they hit puberty, so what are they going to do? yes..
and expect her to some day, step up to you and say she might have liked a little more guidance or sturdy background thing perhaps.
maybe not even because she needed it, but because her friends did get it and she feels left out
speaking from experience a littlebit ..
i'm NOT trying to tell you how to raise your child really! (dont get me wrong)
i'm just saying, because my mother had a very clear idea about how NOT to raise me (like her parents), and perhaps in a few things swung a littlebit over to the other side.
it's all about balance.
and it's probably one of the hardest things to do :)
It's cool, I know where you are coming from. And also brevity doesn't do me justice. I'm not suggesting she won't have ANY structure, just that I'm always going to be making an effort to not "push" her. To not tell her how to succeed at life. How to be happy in life, and where she is going to find that happiness.
For example, my little girl LOVES trains. If I were to give her a doll, she'd take the doll and stick it head-first into the grill on her make-believe kitchen set. I can see a lot of parents maybe covertly steering a girl like that towards more "girlie" things. Or, conversely, I could see a father seizing upon this opportunity to reinforce this "maleness" because he secretly wants a little boy. I just sit back, watch, and enjoy. It's a wonder to see her explore through playing. And, it's ended up that she treats her Thomas trains kind of like dolls. She puts them to bed at night, covers them with blankets, etc. It's a little strange, but it's great to see the wheels turn.
Okay, wtf am I going on about? I dunno. You are right, the balancing act is hard. It's like the BIP. You are never totally 100% a "good" and "enlightened" parent. I fall into parenting traps, discouraging things I shouldn't discourage, encouraging things I probably shouldn't encourage. In the end, I guess you just do what seems right for
your child and do your best not to squelch their Spark.
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 04:04:31 PM
I suppose the question is, "In what way do I want to fuck up my kid?"
My parents used to fight like cat and dog. Whenever they did they'd pick up a kid each and start beating the shit out each other with them. Then the bitch left the bastard when I was 6. I got real emotional and abandonment issues and the usual bollix. He started drinking too much and taking it out on me. I was left to fend for myself a lot of the time.
When I look at the comfy lives other kids my age were subjected to I think - "Thank fuck". I brought myself up. Learned responsibility, independence and how to think for myself. Families are for pussies - was the conclusion I came to. My advice - turf your kids out on the street - do them a world of good.
You solipsistic narcissism makes more sense now. Not much room to develop compassion in that environment.
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 31, 2007, 04:16:49 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 04:04:31 PM
I suppose the question is, "In what way do I want to fuck up my kid?"
My parents used to fight like cat and dog. Whenever they did they'd pick up a kid each and start beating the shit out each other with them. Then the bitch left the bastard when I was 6. I got real emotional and abandonment issues and the usual bollix. He started drinking too much and taking it out on me. I was left to fend for myself a lot of the time.
When I look at the comfy lives other kids my age were subjected to I think - "Thank fuck". I brought myself up. Learned responsibility, independence and how to think for myself. Families are for pussies - was the conclusion I came to. My advice - turf your kids out on the street - do them a world of good.
to each their own I guess.
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 04:20:28 PM
You solipsistic narcissism makes more sense now.  Not much room to develop compassion in that environment.
Yuo meant nihillism right?
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 31, 2007, 04:28:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 04:20:28 PM
You solipsistic narcissism makes more sense now.  Not much room to develop compassion in that environment.
Yuo meant nihillism right?
That too.
I suppose "solipsistic narcissism" is redundant, huh?
Lol - either that or one miserable fucker!
You know, if you teach your kids to think and live for themselves (i.e. protecting themselves, taking care of themselves), the rest sort of falls into place.
It's a child's dependence on others for everything that sort of encloses them into this fortress of no good. That's not to say they shouldn't learn to depend on others, for someone who can't do that is as miserable as one who only does that.
I guess I mean just giving them the tools to figure it out, while showing them it's ok to fuck up and clean yourself up, is the best way you can handle the responsiblity of parenting.
I think theres a massive random element that has to be taken into consideration - the kids themselves. Even at birth they're pretty much a whole complete person in egg form. Regardless of how they are incubated they will hatch into someone anyway. You hear of kids who, given all the advantages, still end up hawking their arse for crack and you get the ones abandoned in a shopping cart who grow up to be well adjusted.
I still think it's only right to look after them as best you can but just don't go beating yourself up if it turns out you've spawned an idiot. It might not be your fault.
Having a dipshit ignorant fuckhead for a son or daughter is my biggest fear, and is why I'm having robot children.
Hell yeah! There should be a line drawn on unconditional love. A fuckhead threshold, if you will.
It's like anything else.  You have control over one person in life, one.  Yourself.  All else = crapshoot.
"Son, you're exactly like the kind of people I have hated all my life.  Please leave.  Here's some tuition money."
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 05:14:33 PM
Having a dipshit ignorant fuckhead for a son or daughter is my biggest fear, and is why I'm having robot children.
just think about all of the conception sex you will be missing out on.  
Just think of all the sex I'm having because I don't have kids.
Quote from: Jenne on January 31, 2007, 05:17:04 PM
It's like anything else. You have control over one person in life, one. Yourself. All else = crapshoot.
Made me think of a parable for ya-
Man has two sons which he loves and cherishes equally, bestowing upon them everything their hearts desire.
Both sons grew up handsome and healthy, intelligent and successful.
Then one night the sons sneaked into their fathers bedroom and killed him in his sleep for the insurance money.
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 05:20:32 PM
Just think of all the sex I'm having because I don't have kids.
:x
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 31, 2007, 05:21:01 PM
Quote from: Jenne on January 31, 2007, 05:17:04 PM
It's like anything else. You have control over one person in life, one. Yourself. All else = crapshoot.
Made me think of a parable for ya-
Man has two sons which he loves and cherishes equally, bestowing upon them everything their hearts desire.
Both sons grew up handsome and healthy, intelligent and successful.
Then one night the sons sneaked into their fathers bedroom and killed him in his sleep for the insurance money.
Ah, the Jacob/Esau and Cain/Abel story.
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 05:20:32 PMJust think of all the sex I'm having because I don't have kids.
but what if the little android enters your room at night because it needs its oils changed, and sees you do the "organic thing" hm? did you think about that?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 31, 2007, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 05:20:32 PM
Just think of all the sex I'm having because I don't have kids.
:x
Yeah, THAT was a bit below the belt...
albeit mighty true.
Quote from: triple zero on January 31, 2007, 05:22:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 31, 2007, 05:20:32 PMJust think of all the sex I'm having because I don't have kids.
but what if the little android enters your room at night because it needs its oils changed, and sees you do the "organic thing" hm? did you think about that?
(http://img43.exs.cx/img43/530/on-off-button.png)
better get a remote with that :-)
(http://infohost.nmt.edu/~uc/projectors/Remote_dir/tem333seg133.jpg)
sexy!
I just skimmed this topic so forgive me if I make a point which isn't wanted, or has already been said:
Bill Hicks had a nice premise for a moral code: That every social action is the result of a decision between love or fear.
I've always liked that, it seems to simplify all commandments of all religions down into one, without fine print or room for misinterpretation. If all your actions are based on the fact that we are all one, dogs, cats, humans, planets, stars, and the cannabis growing in the back yard of that guy on the news who the police are putting in gaol...y'know, EVERYTHING is the ONE THING and the eyes of love see that and if you act on that at all times, everything will be fine, but if you act in a certain way because you are afraid, then the bars of the BIP just get thicker and tighter and the illusion of solitary confinement strengthens in the minds of all...this is why we have gaybashings (or any war): fear (leading to hatred, like yoda says) of the unknown. Famine: fear that we won't have enough food for ourselves, so we hoard it...
Actually, maybe I should watch A New Hope with my son again. Those lasers are cool.
Thanks for your time, BIPsters.
Fear is the mindkiller.
Stiko, how does that view hold up against the homeless junkie who breaks into your house and threatens your children?
What action does seeing the Love in Everything proscribe for that?
Homeless junkies just need teh lurve and then everything will be a-okay
:hippie:
Quote from: eL sTiKo on February 22, 2007, 02:46:20 AM
Fear is the mindkiller.
Quotes from piss-poor science fiction FTW.
Fear = adrenaline rush
Fear is the only emotion worth bothering with. All others are just plain fucking gay!
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 03:57:23 PM
Fear = adrenaline rush
Fear is the only emotion worth bothering with. All others are just plain fucking gay!
So, you're a slave that gets off on fear.
Welcome to America,Ñ¢.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 03:57:23 PM
Fear = adrenaline rush
Fear is the only emotion worth bothering with. All others are just plain fucking gay!
So, you're a slave that gets off on fear.
Welcome to America,Ñ¢.
Oh I sooo wanna be like you. Free - like a hippy in a meat grinder. My dream ... no ... wait .. free is your dream. My fucking worst nightmare.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 03:57:23 PM
Fear = adrenaline rush
Fear is the only emotion worth bothering with. All others are just plain fucking gay!
So, you're a slave that gets off on fear.
Welcome to America,Ñ¢.
Oh I sooo wanna be like you. Free - like a hippy in a meat grinder. My dream ... no ... wait .. free is your dream. My fucking worst nightmare.
Dude, you couldn't be like me on your best day.
You're a whiny little slave. I suppose that works for you.
Freedom is your worst nightmare? Why do I find that hilariously easy to believe?
Your republican party/NASCAR membership cards await, sir.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 03:57:23 PM
Fear = adrenaline rush
Fear is the only emotion worth bothering with. All others are just plain fucking gay!
So, you're a slave that gets off on fear.
Welcome to America,Ñ¢.
Oh I sooo wanna be like you. Free - like a hippy in a meat grinder. My dream ... no ... wait .. free is your dream. My fucking worst nightmare.
Dude, you couldn't be like me on your best day.
You're a whiny little slave. I suppose that works for you.
Freedom is your worst nightmare? Why do I find that hilariously easy to believe?
Your republican party/NASCAR membership cards await, sir.
Actually dreaming that I'm free is my worst nightmare. Waking up, the poor deluded schmuck that thinks he's won his prize. Repeat - freedom impossible, just like levitating and walking through walls. pie in the sky hippie bullshit that you been spoon-fed all your life. You are not free. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are just another idiot that sold his soul for a che guevara teeshirt.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 04:17:30 PM
Actually dreaming that I'm free is my worst nightmare. Waking up, the poor deluded schmuck that thinks he's won his prize. Repeat - freedom impossible, just like levitating and walking through walls. pie in the sky hippie bullshit that you been spoon-fed all your life. You are not free. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are just another idiot that sold his soul for a che guevara teeshirt.
Well, it's been fun, but I really don't talk to slaves. I hate getting slobber on my shirt sleeves.
Besides, you obviously have no ideas that aren't already preached to us by The Machine,Ñ¢. Be proud. You're a good cog. Even if the best you can do is quote fight club.
o no slaves http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11050.0
Quote from: LHX on February 22, 2007, 04:27:28 PM
o no slaves http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11050.0
Well, there's only one slave here, so far. The guy that's proud that he's too smart to think he's free (or whatever the hell he was jabbering).
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 04:28:31 PM
Quote from: LHX on February 22, 2007, 04:27:28 PM
o no slaves http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11050.0
Well, there's only one slave here, so far. The guy that's proud that he's too smart to think he's free (or whatever the hell he was jabbering).
You'll never get it sweetheart.
But thas okay, cos you got teh big shiny freedom.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 04:28:31 PM
Quote from: LHX on February 22, 2007, 04:27:28 PM
o no slaves http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11050.0
Well, there's only one slave here, so far.  The guy that's proud that he's too smart to think he's free (or whatever the hell he was jabbering).
You'll never get it sweetheart.
But thas okay, cos you got teh big shiny freedom.
You're damn straight I do.
Because I was too busy siezing it to sit and whimper about it (or to swipe trite phrases from movies to justify why I don't have it).
Some of us were busy developing our wierdness glands, while some of you were griping and snivelling.
That's really all there is to it. Slave.
I'm addicted to living in a capitalist paradigm - I'm a wage slave
I'm prevented from fucking my girlfriend in the street - by the police state, backed by 2000+ years of catholic sexual repression
I'm a slave to my own biology and the ravages of time - that shit is gonna kill me in the end
There's only one part of me, one part of anyone that can ever be free and that's the mind.
My mind is completely and utterly free. You, on the other hand, got a head full of all these beliefs. Beliefs are the chains of consciousness. So I maintain that there's not one iota of you that's free. You just stood up in class one time too many and said "..liberty and justice for all"
One time too many - all it takes to start believing any old bullshit
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:25:36 PM
I'm addicted to living in a capitalist paradigm - I'm a wage slave
I'm prevented from fucking my girlfriend in the street - by the police state, backed by 2000+ years of catholic sexual repression
I'm a slave to my own biology and the ravages of time - that shit is gonna kill me in the end
There's only one part of me, one part of anyone that can ever be free and that's the mind.
My mind is completely and utterly free. You, on the other hand, got a head full of all these beliefs. Beliefs are the chains of consciousness. So I maintain that there's not one iota of you that's free. You just stood up in class one time too many and said "..liberty and justice for all"
One time too many - all it takes to start believing any old bullshit
Oh, do tell...what - exactly - are my beliefs, O Amazing Kreskin?
And I find it very interesting that you claim to know why I consider myself free. Never mind the fact that you don't, and you just made some shit up...but I expect that from the Starbucks crowd. So tell me, dumbass...where did I stand up and say "...liberty and justice for all"?
TGRR,
Preparing for fun.
You mentioned your beliefs recently - that was enough for me. All the rest was example. So tell me why is you're so convinced you're free? And what is it that you're free from?
the "liberty and justice" thing was a guess - I heard they made yank kids say that in school If I'm wrong then fair enough but the way you've been going on I kinda figured you'd bought into the whole deal somewhere along the line.
I don't really know shit about you - you're a bunch of words I see on my monitor. I had a rough picture based on things you've said tho and I was surprised when you started on the whole freedom thing. Maybe semantics, maybe you and I have different definitions of 'free'. Maybe not, maybe you got beliefs I don't.
So we gonna talk it over or just keep on with the flaming? I'm easy.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:53:35 PM
You mentioned your beliefs recently - that was enough for me. All the rest was example. So tell me why is you're so convinced you're free? And what is it that you're free from?
No, you tell me. Since you can read minds, and all.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:53:35 PMthe "liberty and justice" thing was a guess - I heard they made yank kids say that in school If I'm wrong then fair enough but the way you've been going on I kinda figured you'd bought into the whole deal somewhere along the line.
I didn't go to school in America. But why the hell should facts get in the way of your canned rant?
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:53:35 PM
I don't really know shit about you - you're a bunch of words I see on my monitor. I had a rough picture based on things you've said tho and I was surprised when you started on the whole freedom thing. Maybe semantics, maybe you and I have different definitions of 'free'. Maybe not, maybe you got beliefs I don't.
I told you yesterday what I considered "free" to mean. You found it morally repugnant, I gather. Today you find it "unobtainable".
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:53:35 PM
So we gonna talk it over or just keep on with the flaming? I'm easy.
Depends. You gonna continue to try and tell me what and how I think?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 06:05:03 PM
Depends. You gonna continue to try and tell me what and how I think?
Nah I'm done with that. Have an olive branch.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 06:11:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 06:05:03 PM
Depends.  You gonna continue to try and tell me what and how I think?
Nah I'm done with that. Have an olive branch.
Dammit. SOMEBODY is gonna kill me.
Fuckers!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 06:17:41 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 06:11:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 06:05:03 PM
Depends. You gonna continue to try and tell me what and how I think?
Nah I'm done with that. Have an olive branch.
Dammit. SOMEBODY is gonna kill me.
Fuckers!
Dude I tried but I was running out of remotely plausible counter arguments and, lets face it, personal insults aint gonna kill either of us.
I have a plan tho. You said you were gonna do a BJ script - do something involving mohammed and ackbar and I'll apportion you equal blame in the credits.
Decapitation FTW!
Quote from: LMNO on February 22, 2007, 12:54:43 PM
Stiko, how does that view hold up against the homeless junkie who breaks into your house and threatens your children?
What action does seeing the Love in Everything proscribe for that?
Beating the shit out of him until he can't stand up and throwing his junkie ass out on the street.
With the stuff I keep in my home, that is a loving option.
For Cain, "Feeling the Love" is a full-contact sport.
Like rugby, only more violent.
Well, I could leave him as a vegetable for the rest of his life, or show him what it feels like when someone stabs you in the stomach. Or set him on fire. All been done before, legally, to people who break into homes.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2007, 08:29:17 PM
Well, I could leave him as a vegetable for the rest of his life, or show him what it feels like when someone stabs you in the stomach.  Or set him on fire.  All been done before, legally, to people who break into homes.
in the UK?
i thought UK law on break ins was that you're supposed to help the burglar steal your stuff, cook him a good meal and schedule the next robbery in at a mutally convenient time.
have things toughened up since i left?
Its always been a dirty tabloid lie about home defence laws. 12 people have been convicted for going over the top in their actions in the past 20 years, IIRC. So long as you act in a reasonable manner to the threat presented, then you cannot be found guilty. And if the only other witness is a corpse, well....who's to say he didn't say "I'll fucking kill you all".
People just don't do the research nowadays.
thanks for the info cain. good to know for return visits to the UK.
though you did include the term 'set on fire'. kind of curious how that one slipped past the jury.
Jury's are home owners too.
"I awoke in the middle of the night to a dreadful noise. I tentatively ventured downstairs, whereupon I found this unconscious, brain damaged, quadraplegic guy, spewing blood all over my new carpet. I quickly realised I had to report this to the police because otherwise the insurance claim for the carpet might have been adversely affected"
Quote from: LMNO on February 22, 2007, 12:54:43 PM
Stiko, how does that view hold up against the homeless junkie who breaks into your house and threatens your children?
What action does seeing the Love in Everything prescribe for that?
It's not so much about seeing the love in everything, I never said that. Glad we're talking, though!
It is about deciding to act out of either love or fear. If you are being threatened, you may feel the fear, but the best reaction will not be just based on the fear, it will be based on the search for the best possible outcome.
That said, it may be best to kill the fucker. I never said it was a perfect approach, but it has a lot of reach and it's about as simple as you can get.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2007, 03:50:28 PM
Quotes from piss-poor science fiction FTW.
Good news! I never read Herbert, I just walked past the Fear Factory cd once in my teens.
Quote from: eL sTiKo on February 23, 2007, 05:30:02 AM
It is about deciding to act out of either love or fear. If you are being threatened, you may feel the fear, but the best reaction will not be just based on the fear, it will be based on the search for the best possible outcome.
Please refer to the appropriate scene in
Donnie Darko.
I don't like my choices being so limited. What about hate, malice, pure cold blooded rationality, recognition of necessity, like, general indifference but a wish not to rock the boat etc etc
When you limit your own choices, only bad things can follow.
               Ms. Farmer stops the tape and moves to the blackboard. On
               it, she has drawn a horizontal line book-ended by the words
               "Love" and "Fear".
                                     MS. FARMER
                         As you can see, the Lifeline is
                         controlled by two polar extremes:
                         "Fear" and "Love". Fear is in the
                         negative energy spectrum. Love is in
                         the positive energy spectrum.
                                     SEAN
                              (to Donnie)
                         No duh.
                                     MS. FARMER
                         Excuse me?
                              (defensive)
                         "No duh" is a product of fear.
               She stares them down for a moment... shaking her head.
                                     MS. FARMER
                              (handing out cards)
                         Now, on each card is a CHARACTER
                         DILEMMA which applies to the Lifeline.
                         Please read each character dilemma
                         aloud... and place an X on the
                         Lifeline in the appropriate place.
               The students read their cards.
                                     KITTY FARMER
                         We'll start in the front.
               Cherita Chen stands up and walks over to the blackboard. Ms. 
               Farmer pulls up large white cards that have black-and-white
               animated cartoons on them.
                                     CHERITA
                         Juanita has an important maths test
                         today. She has known about the test
                         for several weeks, but has not
                         studied. In order to keep from failing
                         her class, Juanita decides that she
                         will cheat on the maths test.
               Cherita places an X near the "Fear" end of the lifeline.
                                     MS. FARMER
                         Good. Next.
               Donnie watches as several more students interpret their
               respective human dilemmas.
               Finally... it is his turn.
                                     DONNIE
                         Ling Ling finds a wallet on the ground
                         filled with money. She takes the
                         wallet to the address on the driver's
                         license but keeps the money inside
                         the wallet.
               Donnie looks at the blackboard.
                                     DONNIE
                         I'm sorry, Ms. Farmer, I just don't
                         get this.
                                     MS. FARMER
                              (impatient)
                         Just place an X in the appropriate
                         place on the Lifeline.
                                     DONNIE
                         I just don't get this. Everything
                         can't be lumped into two categories.
                         That's too simple.
                                     MS. FARMER
                         The Lifeline is divided that way.
                                     DONNIE
                         Well, life isn't that simple. So
                         what if Ling Ling kept the cash and
                         returned the wallet? That has nothing
                         to do with either fear or love.
                                     MS. FARMER
                              (impatient)
                         Fear and love are the deepest of
                         human emotions.
                                     DONNIE
                         Well, yeah... OK, but you're not
                         listening to me. There are other
                         things that need to be taken into
                         account here. Like the whole spectrum
                         of human emotion. You're just lumping
                         everything into these two
                         categories... and, like, denying
                         everything else.
               Ms. Farmer stares at Donnie vehemently. She can't believe
               what she's hearing.
                                     DONNIE
                         People aren't that simple.
                                     MS. FARMER
                              (not knowing how to
                              argue with him)
                         If you don't complete the assignment,
                         you'll get a zero for the day.
               Donnie thinks for a moment... and then raises his hand.
               INT. PRINCIPAL COLE'S OFFICE - AFTERNOON (2 P.M.)
               Donnie and his parents sit in front of Principal Cole.
                                     PRINCIPAL COLE
                         Donald... let me preface this by
                         saying that your Iowa scores are...
                              (looking down at the
                              file)
                         ...intimidating.
                              (rubbing his temples)
                         So... let's go over this again. What
                         exactly did you say to Ms. Farmer?
               Donnie does not answer. We reveal Ms. Farmer standing in the
               corner.
                                     MS. FARMER
                              (furious)
                         He asked me to... forcibly insert
                         the Lifeline exercise card into my
                         anus!
Assume I only watched the first 20 minutes of Donnie Darko before Youtube deleted it. And I caught the end 10 once after a night out and I saw some peeps watching the DVD.
Because thats what happened.
Heh. You should track that down. It's worth it.
So I'm told. I hope someone will upload another copy soon.
Wow - I had totally forgotten that scene.
Maybe the page intentionally left blank was the morals page...