Does the following count as AC's attempt at BIP? (from his intro to Liber AL)
THE UNIVERSE
THIS BOOK explains the Universe.
The elements are Nuit - Space - that is, the total of possibilities of every kind - and Hadit, any point which has experience of these possibilities. (This idea is for literary convenience symbolized by the Egyptian Goddess Nuit, a woman bending over like the Arch of the Night Sky. Hadit is symbolized as a Winged Globe at the heart of Nuit.)
Every event is a uniting of some monad with one of the experiences possible to it. "Every man and every woman is a star", that is, an aggregate of such experiences, constantly changing with each fresh event, which affects him or her either consciously or subconsciously.
Each one of us thus has an universe of his own, but it is the same universe for each one as soon as it includes all possible experience. This implies the extension of consciousness to include all other consciousness.
In our present stage, the object that you see is never the same as the one that I see; we infer that it is the same because your experience tallies with mine on so many points that the actual differences of our observation are negligible. For instance, if a friend is walking between us, you only see his left side, I his right; but we agree that it is the same man, although we may differ not only as to what we may see of his body but as to what we know of his qualities. This conviction of identity grows stronger as we see him more often and get to know him better. Yet all the time neither of us can know anything of him at all beyond the total impression made on our respective minds.
The above is an extremely crude attempt to explain a system which reconciles all existing schools of philosophy.
I'd always thought of the bip as the logical conclusion extrapolated from this model (which to all intents and purposes is accurate enough to satisfy me) Namely the inherent human tendency not to realise it and to mistake the universe and their interaction therewith for something other than that which it is.
This is one of the handful of Important Ideas Crowley had.
However, I would call it only a bar, or a wall, of the BIP, because it conentrates on the observable universe that we do not see, and says nothing of the unobservable.
good point there LMNO.
crowley said 'all possible experience'.
BIP says that there's lots of stuff in the universe that i can't experience.
not that i want to say 'nah nah nah nah nahh' to uncle Al though. when he wrote this (1920s?), Einstein was still new & wacky and quantum insanity hadn't gotten underway.
so we're extending his idea owing to the fact that we can reference more advanced science than he could.
Hey, Maxwell built on Einstein who built on Newton.
I still think AC has good ideas, I think if he were alive, he'd concentrate on the "hard" Quantum physics (what we can actually say about the universe), and not the "soft" (the similies and thought experiment we try to extrapolate from Quantum physics).
Quote from: LMNO on February 09, 2007, 07:49:26 PM
Hey, Maxwell built on Einstein who built on Newton.
I still think AC has good ideas, I think if he were alive, he'd concentrate on the "hard" Quantum physics (what we can actually say about the universe), and not the "soft" (the similies and thought experiment we try to extrapolate from Quantum physics).
he referenced einstein in some of his work. i've not found much to suggest that he had read about quantum physics though, like you, i think he would've dug it.
Quote from: LMNO on February 09, 2007, 07:00:03 PM
This is one of the handful of Important Ideas Crowley had.
However, I would call it only a bar, or a wall, of the BIP, because it conentrates on the observable universe that we do not see, and says nothing of the unobservable.
I never like to say never. Sure it's highly (and I can't stress enough how highly) unlikely that you'll observe a lot of stuff but I'd never like to remove it completely from the realms of possibility. I think this was Crowleys take on the universe too. He liked to make out he could see more than he probably could but I think he also liked to think it was possible to see more than he did. Maybe even all of it.
Minor point, silly, but it is physically impossible to see some of the things that go on in the Universe.
Other than that, rock on.
Sorry man, kneejerk reaction. As soon as I see things like 'can't my dogmaphobia kicks in.
I hear you, but damn, you have to admit, you can't lift a ton of weight on this planet using only your own muscles.
Sez yuo :lulz:
\
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/ripped.jpg)
No. fcuking. way.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 09, 2007, 07:43:18 PMgood point there LMNO.
crowley said 'all possible experience'.
BIP says that there's lots of stuff in the universe that i can't experience.
but he wasn't specifically talking about human experiences, right? he just gave humans/friends as an example.
he was talking about these Hadits, points that experience. so one could equally well reason that a "point" of iron-fillings "experiences" a magnetic field (which a human, sort of, can't).
he says every event is the unity of such a point and an experience. sounds like a reasonable thing to say, but a human is made up of many many points which all experience things to eachother. some of these experiences and reactions result in muscle contractions, others result in braincells firing, firing in intricated and complex patterns that somehow happen to make up a (limited) representation of the sum of all experiences of all points, the "current subset" of Nuit.
i like the way he describes Nuit as both Space and the total of possibilities of every kind. probably in both space and time -- this is probably the very same idea of that 10th dimension animation (if any of yuo remember that 98%-bullshit presentation) that has every possibility in all time in all parallel possible universes, in one point.
whether it manifests as one point or not -- doesn't matter, that's just a matter of mapping, and you won't notice it from the inside anyway. mathematicians and physicists call this the phase space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space).
i always envision a level of "enlightenment" as somehow becoming "aware" of one of the phase spaces we can represent ourselves in.
good stuff 000.
i did wonder if the idea of a monad (a hadit) was anything capable of experience, so i started to think on small scales like single cells or even atoms.
from reading this passage, i also felt that maybe the typical thelemites have overlooked the point that crowley was saying that: Hadit & Nuit were 'literary conveniences'. elsewhere in the same intro to liber AL, crowley talks about 'gods' as facts of nature personified and that they were 'accretions of experience'.
what you talk about in your post fits what he was saying. he does point out that not all of our experience are conscious ones. i mean, we're getting hit with radiation from space that i am certainly not aware of consciously. i'm probably not even subconsciously experiencing it either, but it's still happening.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 06:21:35 PM
i did wonder if the idea of a monad (a hadit) was anything capable of experience, so i started to think on small scales like single cells or even atoms.
Hadit is the only thing that is capable of experience, all else is experience
d by hadit. Ask yourself "Who am I?" and keep asking until huge complicated chunks of biological and chemical manifestations stop trying to convince you that it's them.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 10, 2007, 06:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 06:21:35 PM
i did wonder if the idea of a monad (a hadit) was anything capable of experience, so i started to think on small scales like single cells or even atoms.
Hadit is the only thing that is capable of experience, all else is experienced by hadit. Ask yourself "Who am I?" and keep asking until huge complicated chunks of biological and chemical manifestations stop trying to convince you that it's them.
you're good. maybe you should be in SSOOKN afterall..... :?
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 11:06:55 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 10, 2007, 06:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 06:21:35 PM
i did wonder if the idea of a monad (a hadit) was anything capable of experience, so i started to think on small scales like single cells or even atoms.
Hadit is the only thing that is capable of experience, all else is experienced by hadit. Ask yourself "Who am I?" and keep asking until huge complicated chunks of biological and chemical manifestations stop trying to convince you that it's them.
you're good. maybe you should be in SSOOKN afterall..... :?
Nocando I'm afraid. Couple of complete bastards blackballed me. :fnord:
apparently, the answer to your question is:
i am that which remains.
.. and reality is all that other stuff that remains (when you stop believing in it) ?
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 11, 2007, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 11:06:55 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 10, 2007, 06:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 06:21:35 PM
i did wonder if the idea of a monad (a hadit) was anything capable of experience, so i started to think on small scales like single cells or even atoms.
Hadit is the only thing that is capable of experience, all else is experienced by hadit. Ask yourself "Who am I?" and keep asking until huge complicated chunks of biological and chemical manifestations stop trying to convince you that it's them.
you're good. maybe you should be in SSOOKN afterall..... :?
Nocando I'm afraid. Couple of complete bastards blackballed me.  :fnord:
How about "Official SSOOKN Outcast". that way, you get to be in and kicked out at the same time?
Quote from: triple zero on February 11, 2007, 04:15:30 PM
.. and reality is all that other stuff that remains (when you stop believing in it) ?
[PD]
i dunno man...i didn't do it!
[/PD]
it reminds me of the workshop i went to hosted by lon duquette on the 'western mysteries'. what he wanted to do was something that was 'goofy but real' and so, for the purpose of the lecture we all had to pretend we were initiates of his fictional order the O.O.O. (or order of omega)
so he would explain various aspects of initiation and so forth, talking about the practises of ancient greece, egypt etc. one of the exercies we did was based on your typical initiation formula: being asked questions by the hierophant and supplying the stock answers.
one of the running themes was a series of questions like:
"am i my feet?"
"am i my legs?"
"am i my torso?"
etc etc, going through the whole body. the answer to every question was:
"no. i am that which remains."
we returned to this exercise throughout the course of the lecture, depending on which grade of the imaginary order he was initiation us into. at first it was humorous and everyone was laughing as they were going through this. but in time, the group dynamic gelled and it went from being silly to being something more interesting, largely because you started to think about what was being said.
"am i my thoughts? no, i am that which remains."
it was indeed, goofy yet real.
that's the best i can offer right now.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 11, 2007, 09:42:58 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 11, 2007, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 11:06:55 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 10, 2007, 06:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 10, 2007, 06:21:35 PM
i did wonder if the idea of a monad (a hadit) was anything capable of experience, so i started to think on small scales like single cells or even atoms.
Hadit is the only thing that is capable of experience, all else is experienced by hadit. Ask yourself "Who am I?" and keep asking until huge complicated chunks of biological and chemical manifestations stop trying to convince you that it's them.
you're good. maybe you should be in SSOOKN afterall..... :?
Nocando I'm afraid. Couple of complete bastards blackballed me. :fnord:
How about "Official SSOOKN Outcast". that way, you get to be in and kicked out at the same time?
Works for me!
pariah. good choice of words. sounds better than outcast.
offical ssookn pariah. nice.
8)
Every society need one, after all.
Kinda a cross between a mascot and a whipping boy :evil: For some reason the word 'pariah' always makes me think of leprosy. Like, "OMG don't touch him!" :eek:
well, i figured that me, LMNO, Cain should treat you like crap for years and one day, you will receive ultimate kabbalistic enlightenment and a novelty tree of life key chain.
then you can engage in endless litigation with people over who the genuine successor to the SSOOKN really is. it's my dream that 100 years from now, there will be numerous websites (or whatever other similar media that might exist then) whereby various asshats argue vehemently that they are the 'true guardians' of our order.
teh mang - wants to be like the golden dawn but without expending any real effort.
I'll start creating the fake contradictory "origin" documents now.
As well as 17 different versions of the "secret masonic word".
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2007, 02:52:36 PM
I'll start creating the fake contradictory "origin" documents now.
As well as 17 different versions of the "secret masonic word".
good work. later on we should draw up some charters and then give them to people with absolutely no sense whatsover.
Maybe we could randomly mail to people out of the phone book.
[/Old Skool PD]
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2007, 03:08:25 PM
Maybe we could randomly mail to people out of the phone book.
Scary thing is, this might be more effective now, in our age of email. Snail mail is treated as a bit of a curiosity, especially if we make it obvious it's not a bill, so for at least a few seconds they'll actually be more receptive to whatever idea we're including in the mailer.
Aw, damn. Now I totally need to print off that cartoon of mine and invest in some postage stamps.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 12, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
teh mang - wants to be like the golden dawn but without expending any real effort.
Redundant wordage removed in the interests of sentence optimisation.
Quote from: DJRubberducky on February 12, 2007, 03:18:05 PMScary thing is, this might be more effective now, in our age of email.  Snail mail is treated as a bit of a curiosity, especially if we make it obvious it's not a bill, so for at least a few seconds they'll actually be more receptive to whatever idea we're including in the mailer.
this is true, a friend of mine got a strange letter with some conspiracy stuff on it, it mentioned the illuminati so she gave it to me (we discussed that book and discordianism for some time), then i read it carefully thrice, looked up what the actual guys name and address was (don't put your bank account # on things if you want to stay anonymous), showed it to a history student friend with "how much of this is accurate and/or wtf is it about" (answer: it wasn't completely bullshit, but it was just vague references and thoughts notes, without much of a point) .. i still have the paper.
but then, i am already the sort of person who finds out about discordianism and this forum by himself, so i may not be perfectly representative comparison material.
addition: in case anyone's interested, i remembered that the same text was also partly online, i think this is the same guy who wrote the snailmail, but i'm not sure: http://mrcrmrplcs.livejournal.com/3855.html -- maybe some of you more experienced conspiracy nuts can make something of it.
there was some more text on the paper itself, mostly about the guy beind a "meme teacher" and his bank account number.
anyway, to conclude, yes, mailing around random stuff to random people is a good idea.
maybe it's even better if you figure out how to do it for "free". like drop a shitload of letters in the correct envelope somewhere in some big mindless corporation's internal/external mailsystem.
Act 1.
Dramatis Personae: Some dude.
Scene: He walks to his mailbox.
Dude: Hmm...what's in here today? Bill....bill...Victoria's Secret catalogue..hmm..[smiles]...and this is?
[he examines envelope]
[doesn't recognize who or where it's from]
[opens]
Dear _______ (please insert your name)
Welcome to the wonderful world of kabbalistic introspection and the practical application of occult strategies!!
You have been selected at random by our membership computer. As our lucky winner, you have received a charter document (enc.) entitling you to operate a lodge under the aegis of SSOOKN or the Semi Secret Order Of Kabbalistic Navigators.
This august body hereby declares that you are the supreme officer of your own life and sole arbiter of your mental and/or spiritual evolution.
Please take the time to enter your name onto the charter certificate and display it prominently in your workplace or residence. However, it is imperative that you do not attempt to contact us, because we're not in the business of caring what you think.
Fraternally,
SSOOKN random mailing dept.
Step 2:
Once a month, send a postcard with positive/negative comments, but rather vague.
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2007, 07:13:39 PM
Step 2:
Once a month, send a postcard with positive/negative comments, but rather vague.
example? :D
"Your progress last month in completing the Great Work was inspiring, except for the morning of April 15.  Continuing to proceed in such a manner will have a grave impact upon the Realm of Malkuth. Kisses, SSOOKN."
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2007, 07:16:05 PM
"Your progress last month in completing the Great Work was inspiring, except for the morning of April 15.  Continuing to proceed in such a manner will have a grave impact upon the Realm of Malkuth.  Kisses, SSOOKN."
:lol:
"The Dept. For The Human Race
Please note that your membership is now in arrears. Prompt remittance will be gratefully appreciated."
In my capacity as official SSOOKN Pariah I feel duty bound to point out that this is a shite idea and you would be much better advised to instead concentrate your efforts on sending regular mysterious donations to my paypal account. I can assure you that this will have a much more profound impact on the random people you wish to communicate with.
Shut it, asshat.
Fuck me that was quick! :eek:
Heh.
Just doing my part.
I wouldn't be the Pariah for any old organisation. I expect prompt payment of hatred for my services.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 12, 2007, 07:30:59 PM
I wouldn't be the Pariah for any old organisation. I expect prompt payment of hatred for my services.
[whacks Silly across the face with a big, dusty occult tome]
how was that?
I just got an image of a modified "Fish Slapping Dance".
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2007, 07:32:55 PM
I just got an image of a modified "Fish Slapping Dance".
if that helps you..... :lulz:
Okay guys - I just took a shit in tiphareth - whatchya gonna do? :evil:
::hands you a mop and bucket::
Step to, Count Cockula.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 12, 2007, 07:39:39 PM
Okay guys - I just took a shit in tiphareth - whatchya gonna do?  :evil:
pfft. like you could even pass through the veils of paroketh and find tiphareth in the first place, much less take a dump there.
YUO = SITTING ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TREE OF LIFE WITH QLIPPOTHIC APPLES FALLING ON YUOR HEAD.
ME = SITTING AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ABYSS WAITING TO SHAKE THE BRIDGE WHEN YUO TRY TO CROSS :ninja:
(I knew that emote would come in handy)
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 12, 2007, 08:35:54 PM
ME = SITTING AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ABYSS WAITING TO SHAKE THE BRIDGE WHEN YUO TRY TO CROSS  :ninja:
(I knew that emote would come in handy)
:lulz:
i knew we were right to hire/fire you.
it seems that sillycybin is the SSOOKN equivalent of Schrodinger's Cat.
he exists in a state of quantum superposition that includes him being both in and out of SSOOKN.
i like this new development.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 12, 2007, 08:42:34 PM
it seems that sillycybin is the SSOOKN equivalent of Schrodinger's Cat.
he exists in a state of quantum superposition that includes him being both in and out of SSOOKN.
i like this new development.
:mittens:
Schr??dinger's Quabbalist - Only by opening his box can you determine whether he's performed LBRP or not.
you just blew my mind dude! Thanks for that.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 12, 2007, 09:45:16 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 12, 2007, 08:42:34 PM
it seems that sillycybin is the SSOOKN equivalent of Schrodinger's Cat.
he exists in a state of quantum superposition that includes him being both in and out of SSOOKN.
i like this new development.
:mittens:
Schr??dinger's Quabbalist - Only by opening his box can you determine whether he's performed LBRP or not.
you just blew my mind dude! Thanks for that.
:lol: that's great.