So, I was at a party the other night. As I am of a certain age, it was a cocktail party, wine, hors de oeuvres, all that stuff. Anyway, I was shooting the shit with some yuppie woman who works with my wife, and the subject of philosophy came up. After a bit of back and forth, I decided to broach the subject of the BIP principles.
,ÄúSo, the first think I think is that people need to think for themselves.,Äù
,ÄúYeah, of course.,Äù
,ÄúWell, the second thing is that because of the way we perceive things, we,Äôre limited in the amount of the Universe we can objectively sense.,Äù
,ÄúMmm-hmm.,Äù
,Äú,ĶAnd, um, so we,Äôre sort of trapped by our own frameworks of the way we see reality.,Äù
,ÄúOkay, sure.,Äù But her eyes were as dead as any corpse.
And that,Äôs when I realized something: A lot of what we,Äôre trying to say here are things that just about everybody will agree with. I mean, who,Äôs going to disagree with a suggestion to think for themselves? The main problem isn,Äôt that people don,Äôt understand the BIP, it,Äôs that they don,Äôt think it applies to them, or that they,Äôve already dealt with the problem. How many American Idol fans think they,Äôre independent thinkers because they voted for one of the losers?
Is this, then, one of the ,Äúreally real,Äù reasons behind O:M? To make people really understand these principles? How can you make a person who,Äôs convinced that they think for themselves and believe that they understand the scarcity of their perceptions actually realize it?
Then another thought struck me: What if the BIP simply doesn,Äôt matter? What if it,Äôs just another artificial construct that we thought up to try to make ourselves seem important and insightful?
At that point, I got drunk and ornery, and my wife drove us home.
we will find out soon enough
dig up some threads circa fall 2005 and there will be some details about Hell as a Big Waiting Room
in the famous words of LMNO:
if we agree that this BIP shit doesnt matter - then what?
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:45:44 PM
How many American Idol fans think they,Äôre independent thinkers because they voted for one of the losers?
Meme bomb of the decade! :mittens:
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:45:44 PM
Is this, then, one of the ,Äúreally real,Äù reasons behind O:M? To make people really understand these principles? How can you make a person who,Äôs convinced that they think for themselves and believe that they understand the scarcity of their perceptions actually realize it?
There has to be a small number of 'marginals' who will 'get' some piece of writing and break a chain or two. There's no quickfire way to enlighten the majority. It's like the matrix - we're trying to give the next prisoner a hand out, or a rope or some other bullshit metaphor. I'd love to wake up tomorrow and the whole human race had read BIP and got it but I figure the best I can hope for is maybe someone did this month.
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:45:44 PM
Then another thought struck me: What if the BIP simply doesn,Äôt matter? What if it,Äôs just another artificial construct that we thought up to try to make ourselves seem important and insightful?
Nothing fucking matters dude. Either you enjoy it or you don't. The thought of the look on that one guys face when he reads something I've written and get's the punchline is what keeps me going.
Fuck being important, insight is where it's at for me.
How many here have actually tried to talk out the BIP with strangers IRL?
How many times has the reaction been, "uh huh, I get it," and hen they continue on their merry way as if nothing has changed, because they just don't think it applies to them?
Is there another way to explain it?
Or do we just throw up our hands, and then clock them from behind with a shovel?
how many people do you know that can make ill music?
"And he won't stop 'till he got the masses
An' show 'em what they know now through flows of hot molasses" - MF Doom
continue to do things that other people cant
last time i checked, there was some momentum building
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:58:21 PM
How many here have actually tried to talk out the BIP with strangers IRL?
How many times has the reaction been, "uh huh, I get it," and hen they continue on their merry way as if nothing has changed, because they just don't think it applies to them?
Is there another way to explain it?
Or do we just throw up our hands, and then clock them from behind with a shovel?
I only discussed "BIP" IRL with people who would get it anyway but I have managed to get in the door with the odd person who brought bewilderment with the situation those kind of concepts were designed for.
Barstool doesn't apply to BIP - you can't just evangelise and hit them with it. They gotta be ready to understand it. You never seen the light switch on in at least one persons face when something you were telling them made the mark?
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:45:44 PM
So, I was at a party the other night.  As I am of a certain age, it was a cocktail party, wine, hors de oeuvres, all that stuff.  Anyway, I was shooting the shit with some yuppie woman who works with my wife, and the subject of philosophy came up.  After a bit of back and forth, I decided to broach the subject of the BIP principles.
,ÄúSo, the first think I think is that people need to think for themselves.,Äù
,ÄúYeah, of course.,Äù
,ÄúWell, the second thing is that because of the way we perceive things, we,Äôre limited in the amount of¬† the Universe we can objectively sense.,Äù
,ÄúMmm-hmm.,Äù
,Äú,ĶAnd, um, so we,Äôre sort of trapped by our own frameworks of the way we see reality.,Äù
,ÄúOkay, sure.,Äù¬† But her eyes were as dead as any corpse.
Billzebub's Principle: Telling the truth will not make you popular at parties.
Just saying. As an alternate explanation.
Note to self: KYFMS at parties.
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 06:12:57 PM
Note to self:  KYFMS at parties.
Or just try a different approach. I let people gabble about whatever comes into their empty little heads, and then I say, "Well, you know what "Bob" says about that...", as if everyone whos' ANYONE* knows who "Bob" is.
Then it's off to the races.
( * ---> Which, of course, is true.)
You have a good point, Rog. I did feel self-concious, and was reluctant to go into the "You're in a fucking Black Iron Prison!" routine.
It's in the presentation, I suppose.
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 06:24:17 PM
You have a good point, Rog.  I did feel self-concious, and was reluctant to go into the "You're in a fucking Black Iron Prison!" routine.
It's in the presentation, I suppose.
Do never bash people in the face with your religion (bash them in the face with OTHER peoples' religions - I must have cost Pat Robertson HUNDREDS of converts via deliberately poor evangelism). Instead, make THEM beg YOU to tell you about your stuff. Make it seem that ALL the COOL people know about this.
You have to make the swine believe you have something for them.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the Subgenii have more money than the Discordians.
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 06:40:03 PM
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the Subgenii have more money than the Discordians.
:lol:
Hey, btw...the insurgents just figured out what fun you can have by mixing bleach and ammonia in public places.
Now THAT is using symbology. Har har!
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:58:21 PM
How many here have actually tried to talk out the BIP with strangers IRL?
How many times has the reaction been, "uh huh, I get it," and hen they continue on their merry way as if nothing has changed, because they just don't think it applies to them?
Is there another way to explain it?
Or do we just throw up our hands, and then clock them from behind with a shovel?
I've tried it and I get the same thing. I think the messenger is important to take into consideration. I've got me an edumacation so people foolishly put more credence into what I say just because of that. They don't actually pay attention to WHAT I'm saying, however.
Everyone believes they think for themselves. Only those who truly doubt if they do so can probably claim to actually be so. Watching your own thoughts for sign of outside influence is not cherished among many and will not win you friends when an agenda has to be pushed.
Quote from: LMNO on February 21, 2007, 05:58:21 PMHow many here have actually tried to talk out the BIP with strangers IRL?
i did :)
especially the angle
"so i read about this guy trying to discuss the origin of the lie with me, what do you think he was trying to get at?" seems to almost always trigger a very interesting dicussion. (of which i learn things as well, sometimes, which i then bounce off you guys)
that's what maybe is an O:MF part.
the way that question is somehow formulated tends to make people go "huh", opening up their mind, follow up with some loose observations made over the time here, and there you go :)
000 hangs out with cooler people than I do, ITT. :wink:
fact: in madness, the insane never question their sanity. conversely, in illumination, the enlightened never consider themselves anything but "not there yet."
the sad fact of it is, that if you want to feel enlightened, you must remain asleep forever.
Quote from: vexati0n on February 22, 2007, 05:21:29 PM
fact: in madness, the insane never question their sanity.
Popular misconception.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on February 22, 2007, 05:21:29 PM
fact: in madness, the insane never question their sanity.
Popular misconception.
in this case "popular" is more important than "misconception."
also, who cares if it's actually true or not? if you make it sound authoritative enough, it'll do.
Quote from: vexati0n on February 22, 2007, 05:21:29 PM
fact: in madness, the insane never question their sanity.
This is like saying the N-word to black people.
...and just like that, Vex's message got lost in it's delivery.
TBH I kinda disagreed with the rest of it too. Enlightenment isn't a one-shot. You want to feel enlightened - get enlightened. You wanna feel it again search again. If the message was don't ever feel like you got it all sussed out - then fair enough but there were way too many ways of reading that.
Plus he stepped on my insanity toe.
No, the message got through.
The analogy was just bad.
Shouldn't have said "Fact".
Shouldn't have said "never".
statement: in madness, the insane don't question their sanity, except when they do.
also:
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 22, 2007, 05:46:32 PMPlus he stepped on my insanity toe.
Pics.
I showed a friend the pamphlet, and after about fifteen minutes' silent reading, he seemed to just understand, and was able to discuss the BIP and apply it's concepts to his own ideas quite seamlessly. I was impressed.
Good pamphlet, to the right crowd. It seemed to verbalize something he already suspected- an idiosyncrasy to BIP that I've never seen in other philosophies is that people seem to have an idea of it beforehand.
I think that's because part of the BIP is waking up something that is asleep inside. Aside from clinically disturbed people I guess I go with the glass half full perspective that everyone has at least a nugget of something inside of them that would and will long for freedom of thought and freedom to pursue life on their terms. Not those pushed by The Machine and its foot soldiers. However, for some it is buried so very deep that access may be near impossible, but, I would argue not completely. For others, like the example Felix gives, it is so close to the surface they just need a tool to break through that crust to get to it. Or at least, to get a glimpse of it, enough so that they want to go in for further exploration.
And some honestly believe they have found it already. Like Laz.
It's this group I'm most worried about.
That's a tricky part there. Delusion and/or illusion. How to know what's real and what is concocted to make one feel better. I think of all of the new "Discordians" that are going to be created because of the 23 movie. They'll nod their heads and then latch on to the literal symbolism of Discordianism and think that's all there is to it. I think I'm gonna go check that movie out, with a stack of pamphlets.
Actually, we should bang out a new cover to the pamphlets, something like "The real secret to 23", or something.
Just a new cover, leave the rest of the text as is. If we leave these in theaters, we just may turn some heads.
lotta people are ready to criticise movies like that cos they're dumbed down or whatever but I give them all my support. You aint gonna wake up the sheep by reading them Nietzsche. Little baby steps. Tiny little nudges in the right direction that accrue one big push. If people see the carey flick and half get it, or a quarter get it or whatever tiny fraction you care to estimate they're one step closer IMO.
PLEASE NOTE:
"The Number 23" isn't about Discordianism, the Law of Fives*, or the Black Iron Prison. It's a psychological thriller that uses 23 as a plot device. No one,
I REPEAT: NO ONE
will get turned onto this site based upon the merits of the movie alone. There is one link to Discordianism in Wikipedia when you look up "23", but that's it.
Not to mention, I thought we all pretty much agreed that the whole LOL23 thing completely misses the point.
*The whole Law. They're playing around with the first half.
Yeah I don't really think you'll get any new people here based on the movie. Honestly, I think it's one of those movies that's probably just a little too quirky for many people to get interested in. Plus, it's featuring Jim Carey doing the Robin William's trick of trying to be an unfunny actor. And we all know how successful those movies were.
Some folks will probably see the little blurb in Wikipedia. Some of those will read more about Discordianism. 3 of those will click on the link to this sight. One will look at the forum, lurk, and then leave.
But, they will be a captive audience at the movie so I think dropping some pamphlets with a new cover is good way to go. Someone with some graphical savy should work something up.
Paging synaptyx... would synaptyx please come to the 23rd white courtesy telephone...
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 02:13:07 PM
PLEASE NOTE:
"The Number 23" isn't about Discordianism, the Law of Fives*, or the Black Iron Prison. It's a psychological thriller that uses 23 as a plot device. No one,
I REPEAT: NO ONE
will get turned onto this site based upon the merits of the movie alone. There is one link to Discordianism in Wikipedia when you look up "23", but that's it.
Not to mention, I thought we all pretty much agreed that the whole LOL23 thing completely misses the point.
*The whole Law. They're playing around with the first half.
My bad. I'd figured there was some kinda doscordian theme (never seen it or read the script yet)
interesting stuff here guys.
i love LMNO's idea for a pamphlet repackage.
as much as it pains me to agree with silly ( :wink:) i think that maybe it would be a mistake to try and do too much. if we spend a long time working up a very detailed concept, then it becomes a full-on philosophical text which, immediately cuts the audience down.
[gets into body armour]. now i think crowley said that no religion ever failed by promising too little. the problem was that they promised EVERYTHING and people started asking for evidence.
so maybe, short & succinct is the way to go. give them the most basic tools and let them work out the commentary & implications. it's not about lowering the bar in terms of BIP, or dumbing it down but making it as streamlined & digestible as possible.
i'd be interested to see just how condensed the BIP concepts could be. with just enough (and no more) explanation of each point and then just let it be. bigger than a meme, smaller than a tract. something easy to remember.
i don't know...i haven't had my cereal yet.
I dunno, looks like you've had a healthy portion of troof-flakes already.
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 02:21:49 PM
Paging synaptyx... would synaptyx please come to the 23rd white courtesy telephone...
You rang? Got a vision for this, gimme some pointers?
And, teh Mang, great point on the streamlining - maybe I'll get it better if it's shorter too. :lol:
/Is dumb, philosophically speaking.
Something that matches/mocks the cover of the book in the movie.
Should be easy, 'cuz I think it's just "The Number 23" in courier type.
However, if you could make it look faux-distressed, that would be cool.
Quote from: synaptyx on February 23, 2007, 03:30:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 02:21:49 PM
Paging synaptyx...  would synaptyx please come to the 23rd white courtesy telephone...
You rang? Got a vision for this, gimme some pointers?
hijacking the offical '23' imagery so when people find it on their seats in the cinema, they will think it's part of a studio promotion?
hell, put copyright paramount movies in small print on the cover... :lol:
I had the same thought while you guys were replying - I'm of to rip off the movie poster/fonts...
BBL ;)
Oh, that is fucking great.
ultra LAIL ITT
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 02:00:29 PM
Actually, we should bang out a new cover to the pamphlets, something like "The real secret to 23", or something.
Just a new cover, leave the rest of the text as is.  If we leave these in theaters, we just may turn some heads.
I don't know if I want anymore people who actually would give a shit about the number 23.
But that's just the opinion of one misanthrope.
Consider it a gateway drug.
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 04:07:11 PM
Consider it a gateway drug.
Oh, great. We'll be up to our asses in law of 5s junkies.
How many people that came here jabbering about these things turned into useful mammals? I ask you.
At least, eventually, they've all wandered off to other flax-filled pastures.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 23, 2007, 04:09:18 PM
At least, eventually, they've all wandered off to other flax-filled pastures. 
What we're doing here, essentially, is trying to find
more Mal^3's.
Nuff said.
Doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Sure, you get those types, but if you can get just 3 out of a theatre of 40 or so to scratch their head and actually think about it, isn't that a win?
[confession]
I was a 23 junkie when I first came here.
I fnorded dollar bills, too.
And I had a 5 kallisti a day habit.
[/confession]
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 04:12:55 PM
[confession]
I was a 23 junkie when I first came here.
I fnorded dollar bills, too.
And I had a 5 kallisti a day habit.
[/confession]
I still dobbs out hundred dollar bills.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 23, 2007, 04:12:14 PM
Doesn't necessarily have to be that way.  Sure, you get those types, but if you can get just 3 out of a theatre of 40 or so to scratch their head and actually think about it, isn't that a win?
And, on the plus side, we can put the bobbies to work on the wrong end of TGRR's practice range.
Yeah, I was too.  My first post:
QuoteGood day all,
I am the Reverend What's-His-Name? of the Maine Platypus Kabal here in Southern Maine.  Currently it consists of myself and one other nameless person.  We will be picking it soon.
I've enjoyed 29 revolutions around the Mother thusfar.  
I am employed in the profession of retail which is desperately in need of an enlightenment.  At least the sector I belong to.
I am unioned with a startlingly stunning member of the female persuasion and together have begat a future discordian, also of the persuasive gender.  
I'm glad to have stumbled upon a meeting ground of other discordians here in the digital realm.  I'm sure I shall enjoy my time here and look forward to swamping, I mean swapping conversations with many of you.  
Thank you.  Hail Eris! and 5 tons of flax.
I think some may go this route thinking it is a way to fit in.  It's like learning some token French words so you can converse with the natives, meanwhile, the Frenchmen are laughing hysterically at you behind your back because you sound like a dumb American.  
Definitely still suffer aftershocks of the 23LOLP1N34L5Fn0rD!1!1!!s meself - whatever, as long as there is someting else there too, not like Mal-3 < shudder >
/is with Rog on the subject of Mal-3
Anyhoo:
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c108/synaptyx/23-bip.jpg)
If it's a little too copyright violating, I'm not sure what to replace Jim's phizog with, but seeing as it's to tie in and there's no money being made, coupled with the fact we all use anonymous names for the most part, I don't see a problem. :) Also, leaving Jim's face as a photo brings out all the none-too-subtle 23s all over it, I feel this works better.
Actually, now he kind of looks like a friend of mine. I think it's probably ambiguous enough. I just wouldn't hand it to the usher or anyone working for the cinema.
:lulz:
Can we replace the cover of the BIP pamphlet PDF w/ that?
LMNO
-PDF ignorant.
Not a problem, let me get to that a bit later tho, need to pack up and go home.
You think it needs bars in front of Jim's face? Hmmm? Just an idle thought.
Dunno. mebbe. give it a shot, and let's see what happpens.
K, will do, a bit later...
metaphorically it makes sense. It seems the idea is his 23 obsession is a prison for him. Might visually put across the idea to not focus literally on the 23, but focus on what it is doing to him.
(just posting my ideas on random thought in this thread)
QuoteActually, we should bang out a new cover to the pamphlets, something like "The real secret to 23", or something.
a new, up-to-date, current day law-of-fives pamphlet?
with some added "good bits" from the BIP
i'm probably going to check out the movie as well since i like Jim Carrey when he's not acting like a complete idiot and law of fives style numerology combined with some good mystery is of course also nice.
but we gotta point them into this direction, because, as LMNO said, just googling 23 isn't going to bring them here or make them "get it". it's just a number, afterall. all we've got is something like "prior art".
and Mang said: simple.
so maybe just print out the law of fives page from the PD, add a link to here, and leave it at that?
here is not really a nice place to be if you're not particularly motivated towards our particular discordian goals. people will come here expecting some LOL23 and get a bunch of hate in return, and run away, maybe a small amount of them will stay because they like this sort of stuff, that's good of course, maybe even makes it worth it.
ripping off the movie graphics is of course a great idea. nobody is going to sue us over copyright infringement for this, yet it is an excellent way of riding on any generated/marketed popularity (that is usuall disallowed for these reasons, but okay for fringe guys like us)
syn: THAT PIC IS WAY AWESOME (yuo is teh potrace skillz hahaaa)
i don't think the bars over his face will work.
as i said, it's probably infringement, but really NOBODY is going to worry about that. we're just your friendly neighbourhood discordians, remember? ;-)
besides, who are you going to hold accountable for this?
ok maybe don't actually host the modified file at your servers, just to be on the safe side, upload them to http://mihd.net/
if you're going to paste this on the BIP pamphlet, you're making a PDF of it, i suppose? could you please also make a second version that has every other page flipped upside-down, for printers that have a different way of looking at printing stuff two-sided? (like the printers at my university, where i can print FOR FREE)
Good ideas, all of em.
Do whatever you think your community will support/latch onto.
Syn'
Love the Carey/23 pic. Is it worth putting the BIP eye in the pyramid on the page somewhere, even if it's small?
Please to note: No nothing about graphics and have a tin eye. (like a tin ear, only for visual media)
My other thought was - somewhere earlier there was a discussion on methods of distribution with regards to pamphlets. I think we've just hit upon a concept not previously discussed: call it coat tail surfing.
Maybe the notion of 'when' is an important factor for leaving these things about.
Maybe we should have an edition that says: Tired of hearing about Anna Fucking Nicole Smith? Someone is going to go for that.
Perhaps on the day of or day after a presidential 'state of the nation' address, someone drops a load of rants?
Something like that. It's what I thought of after I had cereal.
Damn. A template with "plug and publish" titles.
The material can stay the same, only the cover can change.
Mang, you're fucking brilliant after you eat your breakfast.
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 07:08:47 PM
Damn. A template with "plug and publish" titles.
The material can stay the same, only the cover can change.
Mang, you're fucking brilliant after you eat your breakfast.
Quality subversion tarted up in topical satire FTW! Have a big fat :mittens: each of you.
2nd thought's - scratch that I'm only awarding one mittens - you must now fight to the death to decide who gets to keep it
Polystyrene noses at dawn!
.... lighters at the ready
I think the bars work.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c108/synaptyx/23_bip_2sml.jpg)
OSNAP
:mittens:
SWOTE.
Get that into the PDF, post haste.
On it...
Not so sure the pyramid logo is working for me.
1) it deserves a page all it's own, maybe the back page - and bigger
2) the carey pic and it are both vying for my attention and they're only getting about half each
how much do we love syn'?
let us count the ways!! :D
Quote from: LMNO on February 23, 2007, 07:08:47 PM
Mang, you're fucking brilliant after you eat your breakfast.
why thank you :thanks:
Quote from: Mangrove on February 23, 2007, 10:32:37 PM
how much do we love syn'?
let us count the ways!! :D
:thanks:
Just doing my bit. :)
--
LMNO, I'm having trouble with converting this pdf back to .doc for editing - it converts, but it royally fucks up the formatting. Please tell me you still have the the original .doc files you worked on for the pamphlets?
I may do, I'll look around.
Ah sweet. :)
This is the original BIP pamphlet, right?
If so, go to http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3JDMUT4M
FYI: http://www.mihd.net for tinyurl-style file uploads, without waiting times or popup-ads
(also doesn't say "sorry upload download slots for the netherlands are full" half of the time)
but i got it now
edit: need moooore coffee
Ah OK. Cheers for that, looks pretty good.
Quote from: Cain on February 25, 2007, 10:40:57 AM
This is the original BIP pamphlet, right?
If so, go to http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3JDMUT4M
yup, that's it, without the flag cover pic, but same material.
Working on adding the new cover...
Perhaps some Colgate would fix that.
http://mihd.net/clmbde
Will host it on POEE later (got your POEEcast to do too, RHWN) :)
ATT: Syn.
This is fucking awesome. Many thanks.
LMNO
-has already printed up a bunch. Rock & fucking roll.
:thanks:
Roll on more lit! ;)
does anybody want to do some more writing?
should we resurrect Rev's SBOTD?
or is anybody up for picking a topic and firing away at it?
we could have 10 - 15+ pages ready to go by friday no prob
I'm pretty slammed with end-of-the-month bullshit, but I'm formulating something.
cool
just gimme the word
wouldnt mind seeing how quick we could compile something wiff a objective
aim-cock-spit
I'm in. I can't promise a passage (as I said, knee deep in other projects), but I'll do my best. Plus it's time I contributed in a way other than commenting on what's already been done. =)
how many people threw down on the original? 8 or so?
Quote from: LHX on February 27, 2007, 04:12:17 PM
does anybody want to do some more writing?
should we resurrect Rev's SBOTD?
or is anybody up for picking a topic and firing away at it?
we could have 10 - 15+ pages ready to go by friday no prob
Last I checked, it never died.
Deadline for submissions is the end of February, by agreement.
That date hasn't arrived. You have a couple of days left.
TGRR,
Will remind self to poist multiple reminders to short attention span Discordians in future.
cool