I was explaining the ideas behind the Black Iron Prison to my friend, and this is what she had to say about it...
QuoteThinking your mind is enclosed keeps your mind enclosed, because that thought runs through your mind.
And the thought of imprisonment becomes reality to your mind after a certain time.
So really, you aren't liberating your mind at all, you're just exhausting it.
Turning it into an endless fight against yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
I was never under the impression that it was possible to completely liberate myself. What I can do is take some control over the size of my cell - knock down a few walls, use the rubble to build new ones that are more to my liking. That kind of thing.
Yeah, I explained that to her.
I like to think of it as breaking out into a larger prison.
But she seems to think that the prison only exists if you think it exists.
And she thinks that an imaginary prison just adds to your problems.
She doesn't want to live her life in perpetual struggle.
Also, she won't post here.
Just to piss me off probably.
I'm not sure I disagree with this. I mean, really, you can't NOT play around in your mind with how to escape, how to change it all, how to dupe yourself AGAIN into thinking "you're free." Or that you deserve to be free. Or that you were BORN free.
The exhaustion doesn't have to be in vain, however. In seeking ways to fight against your "nature/nurture"...you're just creating new keys. Or new cells. Whatever. I think that part actually varies, personality to personality. Some are more apt to find ways to escape, others how to make their cell more "them" and less "someone else."
What was she trying to say here? That the BIP concept just makes you tired and run-down? I'd say that's life in general. They don't call it "the rat race" for nothin'...
Quote from: Jenne on March 16, 2007, 02:04:42 AM
What was she trying to say here? That the BIP concept just makes you tired and run-down? I'd say that's life in general. They don't call it "the rat race" for nothin'...
Her answer to that...
QuoteThe BIP concept just makes things even harder than they already are.
"Poetry isn't meant to be analyzed. It's meant to be enjoyed."
Same can be said for life.
tell her to register here already. we can use more input.
Quote from: davedim on March 16, 2007, 01:27:33 AM
I was explaining the ideas behind the Black Iron Prison to my friend, and this is what she had to say about it...
QuoteThinking your mind is enclosed keeps your mind enclosed, because that thought runs through your mind.
And the thought of imprisonment becomes reality to your mind after a certain time.
So really, you aren't liberating your mind at all, you're just exhausting it.
Turning it into an endless fight against yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
Ok, cut the fancy shit so she can understand. The message is "What you believe imprisons you". By her not accepting the fact that the way she looks at "reality" controls her experience of it she cannot understand the silly little game that is BIP. She is getting stuck on the words, missing the meaning. Try the GSP on her...or something.
As for the poetry thing, bullshit, poetry has no purpose beyond making worthless fucks feel important, like they did something. Everything should be analysed. If she disagrees why is she analysing the BIP explanation?
Also, where did you find normal people? I have been around a bit and have yet to encounter such a thing.
Life is meant to be enjoyed. And if she's doing that, then more power to her, and have a nice life. I'm serious about that. I encounter few very truly happy with everything people. If she's one of those, then she's where she needs to be.
If she's bullshitting and she's NOT, then there's something she can still grasp at here. *shrug*
That's all I got.
Quote from: rygD on March 16, 2007, 03:08:27 AM
Quote from: davedim on March 16, 2007, 01:27:33 AM
I was explaining the ideas behind the Black Iron Prison to my friend, and this is what she had to say about it...
QuoteThinking your mind is enclosed keeps your mind enclosed, because that thought runs through your mind.
And the thought of imprisonment becomes reality to your mind after a certain time.
So really, you aren't liberating your mind at all, you're just exhausting it.
Turning it into an endless fight against yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
Ok, cut the fancy shit so she can understand. The message is "What you believe imprisons you". By her not accepting the fact that the way she looks at "reality" controls her experience of it she cannot understand the silly little game that is BIP. She is getting stuck on the words, missing the meaning. Try the GSP on her...or something.
As for the poetry thing, bullshit, poetry has no purpose beyond making worthless fucks feel important, like they did something. Everything should be analysed. If she disagrees why is she analysing the BIP explanation?
Also, where did you find normal people? I have been around a bit and have yet to encounter such a thing.
Silly wabbit, no such thing.
Quote from: Jenne on March 16, 2007, 03:20:56 AM
Life is meant to be enjoyed. And if she's doing that, then more power to her, and have a nice life. I'm serious about that. I encounter few very truly happy with everything people. If she's one of those, then she's where she needs to be.
If she's bullshitting and she's NOT, then there's something she can still grasp at here. *shrug*
That's all I got.
I think I agree with you there actually.
She does seem to be happy
right now.
Happiness isn't permanent in my experience though.
I'll try and get her to register here but she doesn't seem to want to for some reason.
do humans have limitations?
can these limitations be metaphorically represented as a prison?
is it a requirement for all prisons to be bad?
from a objective viewpoint, a prison is nothing more than a place to be
let it be noted:
i do understand why people dislike the suggestion of a prison
What limits you but isn't a prison?
Quote from: Cain on March 16, 2007, 04:22:46 AM
What limits you but isn't a prison?
The BLACK IRON DOMINATRIX
THE BLACK IRON FASCIST TOTALITARIAN STATE
Which, incidentally, would make a smashing name for any modern day fascist movements.
The imaginary boundaries of consciousness
THE BLACK IRON CUPBOARD THAT YOU JUST CAN'T REACH OR PANTS THAT ARE SLIGHTLY TOO TIGHT MAKING YOU WALK UNCOMFORTABLY OR SOMETHING SIMILAR
also, the OP kinda reminds me of that free will discussion. in there, everybody was very quick to admit "ah but it doesn't matter as long as you believe you have free will", how is it different here?
Quote from: davedim on March 16, 2007, 01:27:33 AM
I was explaining the ideas behind the Black Iron Prison to my friend, and this is what she had to say about it...
QuoteThinking your mind is enclosed keeps your mind enclosed, because that thought runs through your mind.
And the thought of imprisonment becomes reality to your mind after a certain time.
So really, you aren't liberating your mind at all, you're just exhausting it.
Turning it into an endless fight against yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
That sounds suspiciously like "The Secret".
The thought influences the reality. Which can be true.
However.
Thinking that your mind has no limitations implies that it is entirely possible to see the Universe
as it is, with no psychological filters, and no biological limitations. Which leads one to proclaiming that they have The Truth, and they see the Universe As It Really Is.
Which is bullshit.
I can't jump 20 feet in the air. Thinking I can will only lead to eventual humiliation when at the bottom of a cliff. However, If I can
accept that I can't jump 20 feet in the air, I can get to work and start climbing.
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 12:39:45 PM
Quote from: davedim on March 16, 2007, 01:27:33 AM
I was explaining the ideas behind the Black Iron Prison to my friend, and this is what she had to say about it...
QuoteThinking your mind is enclosed keeps your mind enclosed, because that thought runs through your mind.
And the thought of imprisonment becomes reality to your mind after a certain time.
So really, you aren't liberating your mind at all, you're just exhausting it.
Turning it into an endless fight against yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
That sounds suspiciously like "The Secret".
The thought influences the reality. Which can be true.
However.
Thinking that your mind has no limitations implies that it is entirely possible to see the Universe as it is, with no psychological filters, and no biological limitations. Which leads one to proclaiming that they have The Truth, and they see the Universe As It Really Is.
Which is bullshit.
I can't jump 20 feet in the air. Thinking I can will only lead to eventual humiliation when at the bottom of a cliff. However, If I can accept that I can't jump 20 feet in the air, I can get to work and start climbing.
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 16, 2007, 07:02:58 AM
The imaginary boundaries of consciousness
The physical world has limits. The world of consciousness, however, is boundless. Important distinction which you quite rightly make LMNO. Makes me wonder if the BIP relates to the material world at all. The only true freedom is to be found in mind, everything else comes down to a cage of biology and gravity and al the rest. Freedom comes from knowing this but not accepting boundaries of imagination and thought.
Quote from: davedim on March 16, 2007, 01:27:33 AM
I was explaining the ideas behind the Black Iron Prison to my friend, and this is what she had to say about it...
QuoteThinking your mind is enclosed keeps your mind enclosed, because that thought runs through your mind.
And the thought of imprisonment becomes reality to your mind after a certain time.
So really, you aren't liberating your mind at all, you're just exhausting it.
Turning it into an endless fight against yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
I would argue that your mind may indeed be closed, but this person's statement supposes that a person actually experiences those limits. I would argue that one does not, thus why many continue to wonder about their universe and explore it. If you had actually mapped out all of your minds boundaries, you'd basically be reduced to a robot just carrying out routine actions day in and day out. And indeed there are many who have, falsely, erected walls and limitations in their mind that obscure the actual limitations.
This is the BIP concept. Breaking down these false walls with the realization that the "true" walls or limitations are actually beyond the artificial horizons we tend to create. But, much like a horizon. You really can never truly reach it, at least this is my belief.
So the limits are not limits.
Thus, how the prison is not a prison.
YOu're getting sloppy with word usage, Silly.
What do you mean by "The world of conciousness is boundless"?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2007, 01:14:56 PMSo the limits are not limits.
Thus, how the prison is not a prison.
Me likey.
Well of course the BIP relates to the material world. It has to, that's where a lot of our input comes from. Even when we revel in the imaginary, our imaginations are shaped and pieced together from actual experiences. When a baby dreams, it can't dream about things it hasn't experienced. It can't dream about a horse if it has never seen one.
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 01:16:05 PM
YOu're getting sloppy with word usage, Silly.
What do you mean by "The world of conciousness is boundless"?
More or less exactly as it sounds. Maybe "world" wasn't the right word? Domain mighta done better.
Basically what I'm getting at are the two aspects of our existence - Existence itself and how we react to it consciously. The material world is something we cannot see all of in fact it's arguable whether we see it at all. Question is what's seeing? I don't have the answer to this but what I am fairly sure of is that what I'm experiencing is a mental image which I have created, based on chemical information, fed into my brain via sensory apparatus.
My experience of the real world is something I create in my mind. Some of this is, to all intents and purposes, immutable. Gravity, temperature, the need to feed... Other parts, however, are opinions - The need to wear specific clothes, to buy specific brands, to feel specific ways about specific issues. In this area the walls of the prison come to exist. One is trapped in modes of thought by ones own self imposed limitations. Examples spring to mind, such as "I wish I could sing but I'm tone deaf", "I'm a labourer I could never become management.
Distinguishing the immutable stuff from the conditioning or psychologically imposed limits affords one the opportunity to break down a lot of walls that have no reason to be there and are counter to one's enjoyment and exploration of existence.
Finding out that there were absolutely no limits to my imagination/consciousness was something that helped me greatly in realising just how much of what I thought reality was was complete and utter bollix. The quantum leap from misery to paradise.
we are all on the same track
we are all using different words to describe it
im reading all these posts here and i hear the message loud and clear
or im hallucinating
Aye! My problem is I try to distill the idea down to as few words as possible but often that means it ends up only making sense to me.
Either that or I use too many words, in the wrong order, and it also comes across as gibberish.
it can be tough. brevity is a double edged dagger.
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 16, 2007, 01:49:36 PM
Aye! My problem is I try to distill the idea down to as few words as possible but often that means it ends up only making sense to me.
Either that or I use too many words, in the wrong order, and it also comes across as gibberish.
this is a important understanding to factor into this shit
its been coming to mind often lately -
also relates to this fact:
you give people too few choices - they feel trapped and will avoid making a choice
you give people too many choices - they get overwhelmed
the balance is tough to achieve - and it also seems to shift and vary
looks like if one wanted to kick it up a few notches - they would accommodate for these plot twists
It should also be taken into account just how difficult a concept it is to grasp for so many. When you 'get' the concepts of the BIP you must remember that most people don't. We may deride them as herd or cabbages but, from their point of view, they never really had a choice or, to be more accurate, they never realised they had a choice, which is tantamount to the same thing.
It's like flatland - all the little square fellow had to do was stand up on his edge but how on earth was the sphere supposed to make him realise that? Bear in mind that we have no available means of plucking them out their world.
So Silly, you seem to be saying that when you say "imagination is boundless" your aim is to examine and deconstruct/reconstruct the psychological filters your brain uses to interpret what it sees? That's cool.
But you have to realize where the imagination and the physical overlap. You can imagine yourself to be able to breathe underwater, but if you try it, you'll drown.
the ability to amuse oneself is a rarity - but it is an ability that everybody around these boards seems to have
that being said - its hard to be gung-ho about passionately trying to communicate with unappreciative people who are liable to snake you at the earliest opportunity
in other words - balance 'fuck 'em if they cant take a joke' with feelings of responsibility and purpose to supporting those around you
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 02:12:01 PM
So Silly, you seem to be saying that when you say "imagination is boundless" your aim is to examine and deconstruct/reconstruct the psychological filters your brain uses to interpret what it sees? That's cool.
But you have to realize where the imagination and the physical overlap. You can imagine yourself to be able to breathe underwater, but if you try it, you'll drown.
Exactly what I meant when I said :
Quote
The physical world has limits. The world of consciousness, however, is boundless. Important distinction which you quite rightly make LMNO.
Quote from: LHX on March 16, 2007, 02:16:02 PM
the ability to amuse oneself is a rarity - but it is an ability that everybody around these boards seems to have
that being said - its hard to be gung-ho about passionately trying to communicate with unappreciative people who are liable to snake you at the earliest opportunity
in other words - balance 'fuck 'em if they cant take a joke' with feelings of responsibility and purpose to supporting those around you
The charm is to make the joke funny to them. I got workmates who think I'm a hoot. I can usually make people laugh at the drop of a hat and it's how I like to interact, especially with sleepwalkers. Laughter is an opportunity for enlightenment to sneak in under the wire. The more they're laughing the more opportunity this fluke has to happen.
Quote from: LHX on March 16, 2007, 02:16:02 PM
the ability to amuse oneself is a rarity - but it is an ability that everybody around these boards seems to have
that being said - its hard to be gung-ho about passionately trying to communicate with unappreciative people who are liable to snake you at the earliest opportunity
in other words - balance 'fuck 'em if they cant take a joke' with feelings of responsibility and purpose to supporting those around you
:mittens:
I have to admit I've been in the "fuck 'em" category lately.
But, I know from my own experience there are folks out there who would get this, and perhaps, be comforted by these ideas.
It's tough to be awash in the sea of humanity.
To know there are others who understand on some level.
I think that is the one of the most powerful things we have to offer.
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 16, 2007, 02:21:46 PM
Quote from: LHX on March 16, 2007, 02:16:02 PM
the ability to amuse oneself is a rarity - but it is an ability that everybody around these boards seems to have
that being said - its hard to be gung-ho about passionately trying to communicate with unappreciative people who are liable to snake you at the earliest opportunity
in other words - balance 'fuck 'em if they cant take a joke' with feelings of responsibility and purpose to supporting those around you
The charm is to make the joke funny to them. I got workmates who think I'm a hoot. I can usually make people laugh at the drop of a hat and it's how I like to interact, especially with sleepwalkers. Laughter is an opportunity for enlightenment to sneak in under the wire. The more they're laughing the more opportunity this fluke has to happen.
So perhaps Lollercaust should be your gig.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2007, 02:22:08 PM
To know there are others who understand on some level.
I think that is the one of the most powerful things we have to offer.
As soon as I'd finished reading the PD I immediately thought to myself "Holy fuck! If there's one other person in the world who actually 'gets' this I totally want to meet them!
Half a dozen mouse and keyboard clicks later and I'm here, watching dozens of the fuckers. Imagine the grin on my face.
i posted something at EBG a couple months ago that i cant find right now
the theme was that due to these advanced communication devices we have (internet / forums), people are finding mechanisms of support that were not available in the past
it was a thinly veiled reference to the fact that if i didnt find reinforcement and a outlet to discuss these ideas and philosophies (which are as of yet still not in abundance in the offline world) then i wouldve been finished a few years back
done
finished
a new guy in the wrong hood
so in short - yes - theres people that could really use this shit but dont even know it exists
going back the the op, since I came in a few pages late...
I think one of the things we've all mentioned is that the metaphor of reality as a prison is a bit too bleak to be palatable. This is basic memetics - people don't want to buy into an ideology that's more emotionally costly than their previous one (see also: melioration principle). There's no reward in the extended BIP metaphor, you just escape into a different cell.
This is why the more I chew on it the more I've been likening it to a Dream Within a Dream metaphor. A dream is a reality that, if we're lucid, we can control. It's also not as damning, although some people live in self-created nightmares.
You get to choose whether its a bad dream or a good dream. Even people in Real Life Prison (the kind with physical bars and cells) have a good day once in a while. They just have to learn to tune into the things that make them happy instead of the things that piss them off.
it's your choice what kind of dream this is. Ultimately, people who are bitter have chosen to be bitter. The point of lucidity is to realize that you can choose.
In the BIP metaphor, you're trapped
In the dream metaphor, you're just going with the flow, until you realize what's going on, and then you can "wake up" and change the dream you're having
more on this later
Ok, would someone please explain to me how recognizing certain limitations is a bad thing?
Fuck, if one desires to act in an effective manner, knowing what is and isn't currently possible, and how your brain reacts in certain situations would be desirable, no?
It's not bad.
I just don't want to be in prison.
[edit] LMNO this kinda fits your post too if you take it that readers might already know the -recognising limitations - part
I fucking love where you're going with this Cram.
"Dream" is a bit fluffy for me but the context is bang on the money.
I read PD then came here. If I'd read BIP first I may have made a judgement call not to bother. The reason for this - PD made fun of the situation whereas BIP seemed a bit pissed off at it. I think the 'prison' theme was mainly to blame for the impression I took. From my point of view it was a kinda "Don't these dudes get the joke?" thing. There were a few really good gags in there but it was an awful lot of text to go through, telling me stuff I already knew, in order to find them.
Perhaps the BIP is stuck kinda halfway between preaching to the choir and trying to wake up the sleepers. That agenda seems to be getting addressed now so when a consensus is finally reached we might be in a better position to produce the sequel.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 16, 2007, 02:53:45 PM
It's not bad.
I just don't want to be in prison.
Tough shit.
But if it will make you all feel warm and snuggly inside your cells, I guess I can try to write something a little more, y'know,
happy.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 16, 2007, 02:38:45 PM
going back the the op, since I came in a few pages late...
I think one of the things we've all mentioned is that the metaphor of reality as a prison is a bit too bleak to be palatable. This is basic memetics - people don't want to buy into an ideology that's more emotionally costly than their previous one (see also: melioration principle). There's no reward in the extended BIP metaphor, you just escape into a different cell.
I think you should change "all" to "some" or "most", because I for one, would not fit into that category. I argue that there is rewards in the BIP metaphor. To have a better understanding of your surroundings, to me, is a huge reward. To understand there are other paths, hallways, whatever, in the prison is a reward. To realize you don't have to follow someone else's map because you have the ability to forge your own direction, is a reward.
QuoteThis is why the more I chew on it the more I've been likening it to a Dream Within a Dream metaphor. A dream is a reality that, if we're lucid, we can control. It's also not as damning, although some people live in self-created nightmares.
You get to choose whether its a bad dream or a good dream. Even people in Real Life Prison (the kind with physical bars and cells) have a good day once in a while. They just have to learn to tune into the things that make them happy instead of the things that piss them off.
it's your choice what kind of dream this is. Ultimately, people who are bitter have chosen to be bitter. The point of lucidity is to realize that you can choose.
I'd be interested in seeing if you flesh this out any more. I'm not sure I agree with it but I have to think about it more.
QuoteIn the BIP metaphor, you're trapped
In the dream metaphor, you're just going with the flow, until you realize what's going on, and then you can "wake up" and change the dream you're having
more on this later
Again, from my perspective, I say you aren't trapped. Refer to my post a few posts ago. "The limits are not limits, thus, the prison is not a prison."
And again, I'm not sure about this Dream metaphor. You can wake up from a dream and then it stops, but how do you change the dream?
Another think, Prof:
Try to see the infrared spectrum. Go ahead, wake up from that dream.
Why do you believe in [whatever you believe in] and not, say, the Insane Clown Posse "Dark Carnival" metaphor for reality? I'll venture because it's silly and not palatable to you.
Those are the kinds of issues we're addressing here. The most common critique of the BIP is not about any of the ideas in it, it's about its packaging. In the current scheme, the person who "gets it" is the person who realizes how imprisoned they are. Freedom comes from knowing how fucked you are. Going back to an old argument, I just don't see why I would want to buy into that.
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 16, 2007, 02:53:45 PM
It's not bad.
I just don't want to be in prison.
Tough shit.
But if it will make you all feel warm and snuggly inside your cells, I guess I can try to write something a little more, y'know, happy.
So you'd prefer I feel all depressed and miserable inside my cell? Then I guess you want to see me try to break out ... and so I do ... and I'm in a bigger cell ... and this makes me depressed and so I break out some more?
I made this cell, just the way I like it. Now i wanna drink some beer and watch a rerun of fawlty towers. Yeah I feel warm and snuggly. Feeling warm and snuggly is not a crime. That's why I'm not in jail.
Jesus Christ, I'm about to have a TGRR gutblowout ITT.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2007, 03:03:34 PM
Again, from my perspective, I say you aren't trapped. Refer to my post a few posts ago. "The limits are not limits, thus, the prison is not a prison."
just to be clear, I totally agree with the content.
But the symbolism goes like this then-
- reality is a prison
- prisons are not prisons
So why do we call it a prison to begin with?
Let's put it this way:
If you agree that your perceptions of reality are at least someowhat slightly yours to control;
And if your agree with the underlying message of PIP;
Why then are you so concerned with the overlying metaphor of the BIP, if you agree with what it stands for?
Why don't you simply adjust your perceptions to see that the BIP is not a negative, and it's a very useful, simple metaphor for your current biological and psychological limitations?
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 03:21:22 PM
Let's put it this way:
If you agree that your perceptions of reality are at least someowhat slightly yours to control;
And if your agree with the underlying message of PIP;
Why then are you so concerned with the overlying metaphor of the BIP, if you agree with what it stands for?
Why don't you simply adjust your perceptions to see that the BIP is not a negative, and it's a very useful, simple metaphor for your current biological and psychological limitations?
I get it man, srlsy I totally do. I'd even go so far as to say I've come to love the BIP metaphor. The context in which we are criticising it, though, is that of someone who doesn't get it. "normal people"
The argument is that "normal people" would be more inclined to pay attention to a positive spin than a negative one and I suspect both me and you would agree that the BIP concept can be given either. The words "Black" and "Prison" are negative connotations. You're right, once you understand it they cease to be so but we're talking about people who don't understand it.
Speaking from my perspective,
Prison is all about potential.
It's about the potential for people to imprison themselves based on their individual set of bars. For some, expectations from parents, family, society, etc., can imprison them in a cell that has them in a job they hate, or in a relationship they hate, or in a course of study that they hate. They do it because they think they have to, because it's "the way."
Others, can recognize this and see that their cell door can swing open, allowing them to visit other cells. But you can't escape reality, it's impossible. We are confined by reality. That's just the way it is. However, that doesn't have to be a negative. Because you can understand it and realize that you can never really experience it all anyway. So by definition we are confined to reality, but from the perspective of experience, we will never see the walls that make up those limits.
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 16, 2007, 03:27:40 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 03:21:22 PM
Let's put it this way:
If you agree that your perceptions of reality are at least someowhat slightly yours to control;
And if your agree with the underlying message of PIP;
Why then are you so concerned with the overlying metaphor of the BIP, if you agree with what it stands for?
Why don't you simply adjust your perceptions to see that the BIP is not a negative, and it's a very useful, simple metaphor for your current biological and psychological limitations?
I get it man, srlsy I totally do. I'd even go so far as to say I've come to love the BIP metaphor. The context in which we are criticising it, though, is that of someone who doesn't get it. "normal people"
The argument is that "normal people" would be more inclined to pay attention to a positive spin than a negative one and I suspect both me and you would agree that the BIP concept can be given either. The words "Black" and "Prison" can have negative connotations. You're right, once you understand it they cease to be so but we're talking about people who don't understand it.
fixed for accuracy.
Further, people who judge a book by its cover should stick to their TIVOed American Idol episodes.
I'm in the camp which believes that the packaging of these ideas is very important. The name we use is important. Are we in agreement there?
because people's decisions about whether or not they want to keep reading are made in the first fifteen seconds. Judging from my own first impression and the reactions of other people who have posted, the bleakness seems to be turning some people away. This is different from "getting it" or not.
Person 1: Did you see The Matrix?
Person 2: yeah, it was over-the-top shite
Person 1: But did you get the message? Reality is a simulation!
Person 2: sure. But it was still shite. I mean, Neo flies away at the end?!
:p
Person 2 obviously doesn't care about the message.
When you can figure out how to get a stranger to switch from not caring to caring, let me know, and we'll make millions.
Advertising.
"Packaging"
So, Steve Jackson had it right, huh?
well we hates him, so clearly not
but I bet he's "converted" more people than Thornley.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 16, 2007, 03:39:45 PM
I'm in the camp which believes that the packaging of these ideas is very important. The name we use is important. Are we in agreement there?
because people's decisions about whether or not they want to keep reading are made in the first fifteen seconds. Judging from my own first impression and the reactions of other people who have posted, the bleakness seems to be turning some people away. This is different from "getting it" or not.
Person 1: Did you see The Matrix?
Person 2: yeah, it was over-the-top shite
Person 1: But did you get the message? Reality is a simulation!
Person 2: sure. But it was still shite. I mean, Neo flies away at the end?!
:p
Person 2 is obviously one of those folks who just "skim the surface" as I've referenced in earlier discussions. Do we really care whether or not this type of person gets reached? I don't. I'd much rather focus on someone who will read the title, look at the cover, and then read the damned thing. The writings in the pamphlet cut to the chase. There are no lasers and special effects to distract from the message.
there are no corny puns and/or jokes to distract from the messages.
So I guess the bottom line is, if you really don't like the packaging, repackage it. Seriously. we all know who is kopyleft and who isn't. Make a new pamphlet, or, retitle the BIP as GSP or whatever you want, and start handing it out. If you want to target a different audience, target a different audience.
The only thing stopping you is your own ambition.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 16, 2007, 03:57:02 PM
well we hates him, so clearly not
but I bet he's "converted" more people than Thornley.
:lulz:
Yeah, why don't you go visit the SJG forum and see how many people he's converted to Discordianism.
I also want to throw this out there. I think a lot of the discussions about the negativity of BIP are making an inaccurate assumption. It is assuming that the people who pick up the pamphlet already know what its about before they start to read it.
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 03:05:43 PM
Another think, Prof:
Try to see the infrared spectrum. Go ahead, wake up from that dream.
if we keep conflating the physical world with the world of consciousness, we're gonna get nowhere further
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2007, 03:57:30 PMPerson 2 is obviously one of those folks who just "skim the surface" as I've referenced in earlier discussions. Do we really care whether or not this type of person gets reached? I don't. I'd much rather focus on someone who will read the title, look at the cover, and then read the damned thing. The writings in the pamphlet cut to the chase. There are no lasers and special effects to distract from the message. there are no corny puns and/or jokes to distract from the messages.
yeah? so sure about that? because you heard what Silly just said, he read the PD and came here, if he would've read the BIP pamphlet he might not have bothered.
i cannot speak for him of course, but i don't think it's because he'd just skimmed the surface.
i dunno what i would have done myself. i googled for discordia forums, cause at a certain moment it hit me -- there should be some out there (everything is on the internet)
but i didn't google for that "map is not territory" stuff, or "mind machine" concept that are to tangential to the BIP. of course i found it funny that they kept on turning up in whatever stuff of interest i was reading.
anyway glad i found this place.
but
i don't quite see how "black" and "prison" can be not seen as negative connotations, yeah sure you can turn anything any way you like, but if you look at the title of a book, you're gonna go with the obvious metaphore. that's not skimming the surface, that's just getting a first impression. that's part of this prison you know :) you simply can't process all the information that's coming at you, so you need to skim the surface, on 99% of everything! now are you saying that you can point out which surfaces should be skimmed and which should be dived into, for fear of otherwise "simply not getting it" ?
this is IMO why you need to balance the dark with the funnay
also, i'm making a lot of bold statements in this post, and in a few moments i'll be leaving for the weekend so ha i won't read the replies until sunday ;-)
QuoteHey, kid. Welcome to Prison.
You think you just woke up here one day, right? Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I,Äôll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don,Äôt it? Sometimes, it doesn,Äôt even feel all that bad. But still,Ķ You look through those bars, and you see all that you,Äôre missing. Hopes. Dreams. What could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the bars, let me show you something.
Feel that? That,Äôs all the books you,Äôve read. And that entire wall over there is your adolescence. Look up: It,Äôs your CD collection. The floor you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It,Äôs your life, it,Äôs the cold trap of your own existence. You painted yourself into a corner.
So, now you,Äôre wondering why you feel trapped here, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the bars of a Black Iron Prison that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and bang. You smacked your head against the wall.
What,Äôs that? Yeah. That,Äôs when the claustrophobia sets in. When you didn,Äôt know you were trapped, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, tired, monotonous life stretch out before you, trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. Breathe, kid. It,Äôs just abject panic that you,Äôre feeling right now. Some even say that this is what death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and unfeeling to what you really want.
Look around you. Look at these cold, black bars. The colorless ceiling. The hard ground. That,Äôs your universe. That,Äôs the world you,Äôre going to be living in for the rest of your life here in Prison. You,Äôre going to live out your life in quiet desperation. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rife/bell tower route. Either way, long or short, it,Äôll feel the same. Dead, unchanging.
So, if you,Äôre interested, I,Äôd like to invite you to a jailbreak...
Just turn around.
Retrieved from "http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Welcome_to_Prison"
Note the bolded section. Isn't this a positive? That all you need to do to break free of the prison is to turn around? That the bleakness described can be escaped by an action that is rather simplistic?
I'm with you, RWHN, but then again, I tend to read things all the way through.
QuoteM'Lords, ladies, gentlemen and scum. Welcome.
Now the first three please fuck off, this is aimed for the last category. You,Äôre living your nice little lives, feet up, watching the telly and having a cardboard, microwave meal.
Are we sitting comfortably?
Watch the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 or the tits on Channel 5. Face it mate it's variations on a theme, same damn thing over and over, repeated into your brain till it starts to go pink and mushy.
I called you scum, why? Because that's all you are to them, that's all you'll ever be as far as they are concerned.
Who's they? Some secret society? Some American conspiracy theory? X-Files bullshit?
Nope, they are the people taking a hammer to your skull and nailing you down. They are all the people who have ever told you how to think, what to say, what to do.
It started back in school and will go on for the rest of your life. If you want it to. You see mate, all you,Äôre being asked to do is think, not saying throw down the tools and join the TUC. When somebody tells you what to do, what to say you question it, think for yourself. Sure you may end up doing it anyway but then it's your choice, not an order.
You think your God can save you? You think your country can save you? You think the Human race can save you?
Your on your own mate, nobody gives a shit about you or your life. Everybody you know, have known and will know want something from you. Your boss, your partner, the guy down the street. All they see when they look at you is what they can get from you. You do the same damn thing to them.
Don't give em any of that denial crap, if you spend five seconds being honest with yourself you'll see I'm right.
It's the great rat race mate, or if your gonna get martial about it, rattenkrieg. You,Äôre a tool and that's how anybody will ever see you, even me.
So what's the point of this little lecture? Let me be honest, yeah it's a rare trait honesty. I want something from you, just like everybody else, I want your freedom.
I see that got you confused, not what you think mate. Your all chained up, shackled down and you probably don't even realise it. Cultural conditioning, it's a pain in the arse but we all go through it. We are taught to obey, to listen, to follow the party line. They throw us a couple of freedoms like scooby-snacks to make you toe the line.
I'm not asking for you to fight the system, not asking for you to join some crazy revolution, not even asking you to join a movement. I'm asking you to wake up, think for yourself. You see there are folks who have, folks who have realised what the hell is going on and learned to live their lives constantly questioning the status quo.
Now what do you say? I'm inviting you to a jailbreak mate, all you need is to provide your own lockpick, think you can do it?
Retrieved from "http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Scum"
Another simple silver lining courtesy of the BIP.
Look, I could go on and on with this. I hope you see my point. What incentive is there for someone to "wake up" if we are asking them to wake up from a warm and fuzzy dream? They won't. Those who are afraid to confront the grit and "reality" of the BIP, aren't ready. Maybe they'll come back, maybe they won't. Those who are ready, will read every word, will eat it up, will see what we are saying, and will "get it." Again, it's about potential. Some will have it, some won't. I'll be damned if I'm gonna fluff it up for people content to live in Happyland.
edit: Okay that came out stronger than I intended. I've had a sub and so I feel much better.
What's really amazing about this argument is that it's so polarised. Seems to me the truth is prolly in the middle somewhere, in that some people relate well to the terminology and some people don't. It concerns me that it get's a bit heated at times as some highly skilled debaters (and a few idiots like me) both try to impress their point on the opponent.
I find it fascinating but I think in terms of progress it's probably a fairly stupid point to get hung up on. As RWHN said - most of this shit is (K) anyroad so there's no reason why we cant have two camps both producing, probably with a truckload of collaborative crossover. If the 50/50 ratio (or whatever we actually have here) proves true in the audience at large then having both slants, maybe even as entirely seperate publications is bound to cover all the bases.
Let's be honest, the heat is coming from me. And alot of that has to do with IRL stuff so I don't want anyone to mistake my arguments for flaming anybody or anything. And I also have to put out there that I am one of the authors on the BIP so of course there's a little of that "protecting my baby" energy there. I do believe strongly in what I believe. To me, the thing is plain as day. To me, it's a no-brainer. I have a hard time conceiving it to be otherwise. Perhaps I'm too involved with the origins of this and so my views are skewed by that. I don't know. Anyway, that's where I'm coming from.
Hmmmm. Just read it front to back for the first time, so I'll give some first impressions (before I read it a few more times to really get a feel for things).
The tone IS a bit more harsh and gritty than the PD. It's got some lulz, but it also came across to me as trying to be the smelling salts under the brain of the reader. If smelling salts were rose-scented, they wouldn't work, and it's the same with BIP from my first read-through.
The PD is a product of the "Happy Wanderer" 60s, when dada, abstraction, chaos (in the more modern mathematical/physics sense) and surrealism were just starting to be explored. Now, 40+ years on when these ideas/concepts have been blended into the collective (un)concious to a much larger degree, it would be ineffective to just "do the PD" all over again. Then, there needed to be more sugar since the taste of the medicine was so new. Now, with the taste at least somewhat understood, too much sugar will dilute the medicine.
That's not to say it should have NO lulz, or should JUST be a harsh slap to the brain, but to avoid adapting the delivery of the information to the time it's being delivered is a disservice to the message IMO. I like the balance of mirth and message. It's not perfect, but it's a work in progress and should NEVER be finished.
TOG, I think you connected with what we were trying to do.
Thanks.
Quote from: That One Guy on March 16, 2007, 05:33:30 PM
Hmmmm. Just read it front to back for the first time, so I'll give some first impressions (before I read it a few more times to really get a feel for things).
The tone IS a bit more harsh and gritty than the PD. It's got some lulz, but it also came across to me as trying to be the smelling salts under the brain of the reader. If smelling salts were rose-scented, they wouldn't work, and it's the same with BIP from my first read-through.
The PD is a product of the "Happy Wanderer" 60s, when dada, abstraction, chaos (in the more modern mathematical/physics sense) and surrealism were just starting to be explored. Now, 40+ years on when these ideas/concepts have been blended into the collective (un)concious to a much larger degree, it would be ineffective to just "do the PD" all over again. Then, there needed to be more sugar since the taste of the medicine was so new. Now, with the taste at least somewhat understood, too much sugar will dilute the medicine.
That's not to say it should have NO lulz, or should JUST be a harsh slap to the brain, but to avoid adapting the delivery of the information to the time it's being delivered is a disservice to the message IMO. I like the balance of mirth and message. It's not perfect, but it's a work in progress and should NEVER be finished.
:banana: :potd: :mittens: :thumb:
warning: this post will piss off a lot of people and be regarded as affirmation that i'm not getting the point:
does the BIP just do the 'cut to the chase' stuff because we are currently not witty or jovial enough to come up with the lulz?
Yes.
No.
Kinda.
Not really.
I dunno. I didn't think the PD was that funny, actually. There were some bits, but for the most part, I didn't really laugh.
Well the BIP pamphlet was pretty much lightning-in-a-bottle in a way. It just kind of happened. We had 7 or 8 people all at the same time at a point where they were writing lots of stuff. As I recall, we didn't really plan it out per se. We didn't say, okay you write this and you write that. It just, manifested itself that way. So, I don't think there was ever a direct, conscious directive to "cut to the chase" on purpose. It just so happened that everyone was in that mode. A "natural reaction" if you will.
I would say that the biggest problem that people have with the BIP metaphore is the word BLACK. The reason they have a problem with it is because they think the black reffers to the prison itself, but it actually reffers to the iron.
What do we know about black, or wrought, iron? Its very strong metal, and very dense, hard, difficult to bend. Thick wrought iron is what they used to craft cell bars from; I don't know if they still do today. So, the black iron is the barrier itself, the limitation to our understanding of the universe. These limitations, the black iron, are what make the prison, the prison is a product of the black iron. The prison is neither black nor iron itself.
Rambling, yes. But thats my take.
In summation, when something says, "Black Iron Prison", the people who don't get the metaphore see "Black, Iron Prison" when we see it as "Black_Iron Prison".
This whole thread is the reason why I brought up needing the humor added in the first place a while back.
Unfortunately, my own life is missing too much humor for me to be of much help in that arena.
I might try my brother, who's a writer (comedic, btw), to give me some ideas or help out in some way. He's good at seeing the darker side of life in a humorous and very "now, gotcha" way.
I think this is an admirable movement (otherwise I wouldn't continue to throw my half-assed comments in or keep up with it), which is a 180 from what I used to believe. Like Bella, I've been burned by evangelists before. They are rabid and don't take their audience's sensibilities into account.
This movement is different from that. In all shapes and colors. I wish I had some lulz to throw in here...it would be a worthy contribution. But...well...I've shared before where I'm at, and I just don't have it in me.
Observation: Most of our humor on this site is abusive/insulting/deprecating.
It's a 50/50 split between it aimed at ourselves or others, though.
Would that really translate into the BIP? I mean, not only are we revealing Horrible Troofs, we're insulting them, too?
LMNO...I think what is humorous to a cohort will translate once its audience is determined and written for.
Plus, there are plenty of people here who do not abuse others as a form of ritualistic hazing.
Quote from: Jenne on March 16, 2007, 08:03:35 PM
Plus, there are plenty of people here who do not abuse others as a form of ritualistic hazing.
WHO ARE THEY!? we will seek out these softies and throw them in the nearest mud hole.
ITT, Jenne reveals secret conspiracy against all that is good and pure in the Discordian movement.
Quote from: vexati0n on March 16, 2007, 08:07:02 PM
Quote from: Jenne on March 16, 2007, 08:03:35 PM
Plus, there are plenty of people here who do not abuse others as a form of ritualistic hazing.
WHO ARE THEY!? we will seek out these softies and throw them in the nearest mud hole.
ITT, Jenne reveals secret conspiracy against all that is good and pure in the Discordian movement.
It's a secret? Since when?
Don't think there's ANYthing secret about this place.
now you're just denying complicity in blowing the lid off this whole operation, scooter.
Quote from: LMNO on March 16, 2007, 07:55:50 PM
Observation: Most of our humor on this site is abusive/insulting/deprecating.
It's a 50/50 split between it aimed at ourselves or others, though.
Would that really translate into the BIP? I mean, not only are we revealing Horrible Troofs, we're insulting them, too?
IMO ALL humour everywhere is abusive/insulting/deprecating.
The smart comedian picks a target that both he and his audience can identify with as being worthy. Target isn't necessarily human. Animals and religions make equally good lul bomb recipients but make no mistake - the aim of humour is always to destroy.
I like humour because you can kill a lot more than with guns or nuclear missiles a whole hell of a lot more cheaply.
(http://www.yeray-muaddib.com/watchmen/vineta2.jpg)
Quote from: vexati0n on March 16, 2007, 08:13:07 PM
now you're just denying complicity in blowing the lid off this whole operation, scooter.
Well, but of course.
*only LOOKS guilty, honest*
And Silly...I get your meaning...but humor doesn't have to be all shits and giggles. Though that is the icing on the proverbial cake, I suppose.
Reading that post back I should clarify the "aim" is to destroy, the objective is to release.
The objective I think for the BIP is to give someone something to hold on to or even entice them further if the heavier shit don't get them all the way.
As the person in the OP says, there's a big turnoff to being told your life. I think that's where, in the end, a lot of the so-called negativity happens...
Maybe it's best to leave the victim out of the story. Talk about the black iron prison in the 'them' sense rather than the 'you' Make it clear that the prisoners are the epitomy of dumb - how stupid must they be to fall for that shit.
That way you're implying that your audience is already out of jail which is where you both want them to be anyway. If they get the joke then the chances are they're well on the way anyroad.
The one's who aren't laughing come the punchline? Chances are they still got a bit of thinking to do. Leave them to it. They still heard, even if it hasn't registered yet.
Hmmm. Switch it to the Third Person, you mean?
Instead of "YUO are in a BIP!", saying "THEY are ina BIP!"
Inclusion.
Interesting.
Quote from: Jenne on March 16, 2007, 08:38:40 PM
The objective I think for the BIP is to give someone something to hold on to or even entice them further if the heavier shit don't get them all the way.
As the person in the OP says, there's a big turnoff to being told your life. I think that's where, in the end, a lot of the so-called negativity happens...
I agree 100%. The problem is, at least for me personally, when I try to be funny on cue, it doesn't work.
(okay, yeah I know, the idea of me being funny isn't necessarily universal round these parts)
I think this has been the Black Iron Hurdle when it comes to any sort of Lollercaust-type project. We seem to be much better at being aserbic than inducing ass-dropping laughter.
Trying to be funny is the quickest way to writing epitaphs. Trick is to find the subject funny yourself. If you're laughing at it it comes out in your writing.
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 16, 2007, 09:01:57 PMMaybe it's best to leave the victim out of the story. Talk about the black iron prison in the 'them' sense rather than the 'you' Make it clear that the prisoners are the epitomy of dumb - how stupid must they be to fall for that shit.
That way you're implying that your audience is already out of jail which is where you both want them to be anyway. If they get the joke then the chances are they're well on the way anyroad.
The one's who aren't laughing come the punchline? Chances are they still got a bit of thinking to do. Leave them to it. They still heard, even if it hasn't registered yet.
i was always thinking of avoiding this explicitly, for fear of people reading/listening and thinking "ah yes, but that's OTHER people, I AM already free", especially the "alternative" or "non-conformist" movement (if that still exists?) would fall easy prey to these traps.
on the other hand, you should of course pick your audience. the "alternatives" would probably be less bothered by the in-your-face-ness or put off by any negative connotations glimpsed from surface skimming, where the "conformists" might be more susceptible to the idea of "THEY might be talking about ME".
I think a good premise is one of the keys to funnay. Like how the principia's premise is religion - it uses a lot of religious symbolism and imagery and dressings as a disguise to present its message.
I think coming up with a good premise is much easier than thinking of the joke itself.
Like what if we wrote lollercaust in the format and layout of a high school social-studies text book
or a pop-psych self-help book
or an instruction manual
or as if is correspondence between two condescending martians talking about humanity's problems
or it's a disappointed journal entry written by time traveling ancient greeks
or some shit like that
Well, there's always the prison ITSELF.
intergalactic time-space travelling stand-up comedian that arrives at earth looking for new material (on his home-planet also known as "the LULZ--and whoever controls the LULZ, controls the empire, a fact well-known by everybody who is anybody in the imperial comedy circuit)
at first he uses his mind-control powers to incite the LULZ like a skilled troll (opportunity for some illustrative thought experiments/mind games) but after a while he notices that he doesn't even need to push this earth-species because they continuously cover themselves and eachother in LAILAISE (providing oil for the Machine to both to run on and grease the gears) --opportunity for pointing out painfully obvious funny troofs once the reader has been hooked with the "ah that's other people" fun stuff in part 1 gets confronted with a mirror.
then the space-time-troll gets hit by a collateral orbital strike and an EPIC BATTLE WITH HIMEOBS ensues (with explosions and tentacles), just before the earth would almost be destroyed by the Mother Of All Orbital Strikes, the alien and HIMEOBS central command notice they have similar goals, do one final near-fatal JAKE, saving the human race (sort of) and providing the timetraveller with the LAILAISE-fuel he needs for going back in space to do his gig, and later sends HIMEOBS some supplies through space and time, which, because they got sent to a few years in the past now turned out to have been Tubgirl and Goatseman and part of the famous HIMEOBS prop.
Sounds like a good synopsis.
Get to work.
sorry but i'm probably not going to work that out because it will take me about half a day of focussed work to do it. you can still have all my good ideas though, since they come somewhat random anyway.