So over all I feel that the premise of the book failed for me. being that in some forum I read that it was designed to revisit the PD and bring it in to a more up to date format. Sure there are more pop culture references (like cell phonesz nad web pages) that are "more modern" but the term "bowling alley" is still understood and until what it is is lost in time I think the term works just fine as opposed to saying that Eris was discovered at an internet cafe or whatever futuristic hop might exist when the term bowling alley is no longer understood. Even then, we can still figure out the shit in shakespear with a few cliff notes so I say that the idea of updating it is shinanigans. It's not necessary, and even if it was, the message of the story of the discover of eris is the same whether it be a bowling alley, disney land, an internet cafe or your mothers basement.
On a different note however, this book does tread into some new territory and makes it valuable unto itself. I think the premise should be changed rather to using the PD as a luanching pad for this book, not to make it the PD rediscovered and repackaged with one of 6 coloful prizes inside. (collect them all!)
I also read in some other forum commentary that this thing was really a bummer. Maybe in some spots, but I think that what the real problem is is not that it is at all depressing, because if you read the PD it too certainly covers depressing crap, is that it doesn't engage/solicit a thought response as much as it accuses(elliciting a negative response in the reader), which of course was the genious of the PD. I think it's a well defined fact that everyone believes they are superior in some way especially if they are one of the sheep you are trying to reach via this pamphlet. It's bred into their thinking to make them think they are special so that they don't question authority and complacently accept the fates they are handed and instead indulge in what is deemed to be fit for them. This allows them to build their own BIP by believing that their is vastly superior and also disarm the intellectual bomb you hand them with the BIP as inferior as they have already convinced themsleves that they are happy in their own BIP and you are now a jerk (in their mind) for disrupting that. I think a good chunk should be rewritten to point at these things and let the reader discover it for themselves, thinking now that they are instead the genious and not you for writing it to begin with. They don't care about you, they care about how "teh awesome" they are and they need you to reinforce that until they feel comfortable letting you infect their head, and they, the audience is who you are writing this for no matter how much one tries to delude themself into thinking they are making art for art's sake or just for personal reasons... Quite simply, who wants to stick around for something that's not a good time?
That brings me to another point, which actually contradicts that last point. People enjoy suffering. They revel in it and as far as history has ever recorded human existence is measured in misery, not dollars and cents. They feel it makes them special and thus justifies that they know how best to create their own BIP because *you* couldn't possibly undertand (and the truth is you can't). Little do most people know that they are indeed not independant and really have no real measure of control over anything (touching on the whole fish tank segment in BIP, the fish doesn't know it's wet, etc.) and people who do think that they are independant are in the very least slaves of some defunct economist. The simple truth is you will not eat unless you do someone else's bidding, it's just a measure of how much shit your willing to swallow. Even assuming the best of circumstances, that you inherrit tax free airable land and are trained to reap what you sew early on in life, if you do this you will have time for little else (the more you struggle to survive the tighter the girdle gets) and eventually some jerk will come along and kill you and take your shit becuase you have it and he doesn't, which is how we end up with surplus anyhow, by fucking other people out of what they have rightfully worked for. If, on the other hand, you suck the corperate cock and pay your taxes you get a measure of protection afforded to you because, as a tool, you pay these people in dues of your own personal dignity and strongarm money(commonly known as taxes). In return they allow you certain freedoms, in this instance the ability to write a book that slams them (the BIP).
The thing is why be so angry about it? You are still choosing to do these things. You choose to reject or embrace the scenario for your own ends anyhow. The only way things might be different is if the world took to our personal ideals as a paradigm , in which case your ideals would be impressed on someone else who didn't want them and they in turn would right the BIP instead of you. reality exists as it must and under the best possible circumastances, and if you don't think so, keep in mind that a positive attitude will solve many of your problems, and the ones it doesn't solve will be made up for in the joy how many you people you piss off with a big ignorant shit eating grin on your face. People are a product of their environment as well as being masters of their fates. It that dynamism that keeps life interesting. That is why any of us are still alive, because we want to see what happens next ... to see just how fucked up this life shit can get, like a kid jumping in the seat of the scariest rollercoaster, and much like the kid, the memory and excitement will fade in time, like the wonderfull cup of coffee you had 2 monday mornings ago. It just doesn't seem relavent to think about it once you've enjoyed it now does it? Gotta love human nature and it's absurdity.
This leads me into a further ramble whch may just be the point of all this other rambling, we'll find out...
I tend to think that life doesn't suck so bad. Sure it bites, but it has to. A certain ammount of grief is necessary in life. Without it there would be no basis for comparrison and you wouldn't even know if you were having fun (...and maybe you don't and suffer(?) from malaise). The duality of existence is much what makes it exciting and fun. I have a private theory that states you signed up for this life and you are getting absolutely everything you asked for and wanted in the deal, including depression, tragedy, pain and suffering.
"BUT THAT IS COLD! Do you mean to tell me that some 14 year old girl really wanted to get raped and that the fetus really wanted to die at birth and kill it's own mother in the process!"
Yeah, actually. And here's why. When you die, no matter what happens afterword you won't care about what happened in life. It will cease to matter just like that rollercoaster from when you were 8, as matter of fact, now that you're in your mid fifties that rollercoaster idea isn't sounding so hot and exciting anymore... maybe I'll just pass this round out...
being violently murdered, abused or what not will not matter in the grand scheme of things no matter what happens when you die, and you won't care. If you are reincarnated, you won't remember, if you are void and cease to exist, it won't matter and if you go to some heaven or hell after life you are likely to be preoccupied with whatever you are doing (like you are now) and whatver happened in life, still, won't matter, you still won't care. Maybe in some brief flash of nostalgic memeory, like that nice cup of coffee from 2 mondays ago, but you won't really care. In this respect, mankind will approach beginning solving all his problems when he ceaes to take life so seriously. I restated that from the PD beause I also believe that the very nature of existence makes it so that problems are necessary as part of the experience and there is no real way to solve them, as is illustrated by the bit about eris on the radio.
I'll end with an emphasis on my point that is drawn from Hitch hiker's Guide though loosely translated here...
the richest men in all the universe commissioned to have their own custom built paradise planets built to specification for maximum enjoyment. At the end of the day these men found that they were still depressed no matter how many virgins fed them hand peeled grapes a day, usually over something as trivial as the sky being the wrong shade of pink as the sun set after an otherwise perfect day of relaxing.
What can be learned here? Mankind has no friggen clue what it wants. That is part of the game, people are fickle and dumb, including you and I. It's also what keeps us alive (steven hawkings: "it is not clear that intelligence is connected with long term survivability.")... the need to seek out new shit. If you want people to really be influenced by the BIP, appeal to that. My grandfather, the lord of all quotes, often plaugerized an old saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you can catch 10 times as many than both combined with a big steaming pile of horse shit."
Because Fuck them, and that's why.
Ambassador KLOK KAOS
PS I noticed a bit about people being randomly quoted for insertion in some rant based section of the forum on BIP for possible. I don' have any qualms with this but if anything I have to say is to go into print I do want to have it run by me first so I can see it in context because I am egotistical.
PSS I followed an old link to BIP and the pages weren't in order (maybe they weren't supposed to be?) so if my impression is coming from an outdated verrsion, please flame me incessently for my ignorance and send me a link to the new one which is actually meatspinners in disguise. I would love that. It would be educational. Do it for the children.
1. Do you mind if I quote this and throw in some more paragraph breaks?
2. Do you disagree with the premise/metaphor of the BIP, or the way it's delivered/packaged?
3. The BIP wasn't designed to teach people about Eris, or bowling. It was to cut out the stuff in the PD that wasn't useful and/or kinda stupid.
this is the most constructive post in this forum for 3 months.
It probably won't surprise you that some of us disagree with your assessment. And since others likely will voice their opinions on your summation I will leave that to them.
However, I would like to address this passage:
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 23, 2007, 05:05:26 PM
I have a private theory that states you signed up for this life and you are getting absolutely everything you asked for and wanted in the deal, including depression, tragedy, pain and suffering.
"BUT THAT IS COLD! Do you mean to tell me that some 14 year old girl really wanted to get raped and that the fetus really wanted to die at birth and kill it's own mother in the process!"
Yeah, actually. And here's why. When you die, no matter what happens afterword you won't care about what happened in life. It will cease to matter just like that rollercoaster from when you were 8, as matter of fact, now that you're in your mid fifties that rollercoaster idea isn't sounding so hot and exciting anymore... maybe I'll just pass this round out...
being violently murdered, abused or what not will not matter in the grand scheme of things no matter what happens when you die, and you won't care. If you are reincarnated, you won't remember, if you are void and cease to exist, it won't matter and if you go to some heaven or hell after life you are likely to be preoccupied with whatever you are doing (like you are now) and whatver happened in life, still, won't matter, you still won't care.
I think you need to do better to explain this. You do a good job of saying why it doesn't matter, BUT you do not explain how the 14 year old really wanted to get raped. Because, in my mind, asking for something and something not mattering in the end are two different concepts. So, could you try that point again please?
It sounds like an argument against free will, actually.
Could be, after reading that though one might wonder why we don't just kill ourselves now, because you know, in the end, it won't matter.
human experience is a cornucopia of different events and actions. no way can you do everything in one go-round. if you get murdered this time, maybe next time put yourself on the list of murderers.
to me it sounds like a pseudo-spiritual 'life is based on the afterlife' belief of the sort that has justified lots of horrible shit.
That segment of the whole thing kinda stuck in my throat too but the rest was shit I totally get. Goes back to what I was saying about third person earlier - there has to be lulz and they come much easier if it's someone else picking up the tab.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 23, 2007, 05:20:03 PM
It probably won't surprise you that some of us disagree with your assessment. And since others likely will voice their opinions on your summation I will leave that to them.
However, I would like to address this passage:
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 23, 2007, 05:05:26 PM
I have a private theory that states you signed up for this life and you are getting absolutely everything you asked for and wanted in the deal, including depression, tragedy, pain and suffering.
"BUT THAT IS COLD! Do you mean to tell me that some 14 year old girl really wanted to get raped and that the fetus really wanted to die at birth and kill it's own mother in the process!"
Yeah, actually. And here's why. When you die, no matter what happens afterword you won't care about what happened in life. It will cease to matter just like that rollercoaster from when you were 8, as matter of fact, now that you're in your mid fifties that rollercoaster idea isn't sounding so hot and exciting anymore... maybe I'll just pass this round out...
being violently murdered, abused or what not will not matter in the grand scheme of things no matter what happens when you die, and you won't care. If you are reincarnated, you won't remember, if you are void and cease to exist, it won't matter and if you go to some heaven or hell after life you are likely to be preoccupied with whatever you are doing (like you are now) and whatver happened in life, still, won't matter, you still won't care.
I think you need to do better to explain this. You do a good job of saying why it doesn't matter, BUT you do not explain how the 14 year old really wanted to get raped. Because, in my mind, asking for something and something not mattering in the end are two different concepts. So, could you try that point again please?
Point taken. This was self evident to me because I wrote it (IR teh smarting)
I think that wherever you may be coming from before you get here, whether it be another body, the void, an alternate existence or whatever, you opted to get here. You signed up for it and likely because it seemed like a good idea at the time (sometimes for better, sometmes for worse). Like silly posted, it has to do with crappy things (not just boring lullz, though they are necessary too) needing to be present in order to understand exactly what you enjoy... in order for you to enjoy anything something has to suck. And if nothing really matters in the grand scheme of things, who really cares if they die in a cold hospital bed years after being vegetableized (new word I think) in a brutal car accident? Someone needs to right? Besides, i haven't done that one yet, might be cool. Do I have justifiable evidence to back this up? FUCK NO! But I do find the reason this pet belief grid works for me (and yes, i know there is no universal correct grid and that oftentimes directly opposing grids are equally usefull) is because it places the responsibility of your existence(s) squarley on your shoulders instead of pawning it off on some elusive and cruel god being and excusing you from responsibility to living your life. Rather than limiting free will, this makes it possible for me to have a free will in that I'm comfident in the fact that picked this bullshit gig, and yes, you or I can quit at any time... So why not blow your brains out now? Probably because there is too much cool shit to look at (including boredom, and misery), and that would be why life doesn't suck so bad. Further, it's also been my experience that although as one ages the frequency of the things that entertain you decreases, however, the entertainment value you glean from them increases propotionately. I'm not argueing that life is based on afterlife, much the opposite, whatever existence holds, now, in the past or in the future doesn't matter, that's what I'm getting at. Of course, it is indeed human nature to desire a certain ammount of productivity in ones diet which is why many of us decide to take up a life's work in hopes of future advancement of ourselves, culture, future generations etc. I think vexation's comment might have grasped it best, but again, there is no garauntee that there is another go around. You may just have to get "it" right this time, assuming that there is a "right way" to do "it". In all likelihood there isn't and it again, doesn't matter. Much like watching a movie, sometimes it's good, sometimes it sucks, and you can always leave the theatre if you think it sucks to bad, but sometimes you catch a good movie, and maybe a movie that starts good and ends bad, or vice versa. Further, sometimes I like funny movies, dramatic movies, bloody and gory movies, etc. the same be thought about life from an alternate perspective with the exception that life features all of these elements at once. I've only walked out of one movie I paid to see in the theatres and it was that crappy batman movie with arnold shwartzen-hard-to-spell. And really, if your life sucks anything like that pile of crap, I would understand and applaud you if you killed yourself, for at any price, you would certainly be in a better place. Furthermore, and very much unrelated, I don't believe in evolution, at leat not as presented.
YMLAS,
Ambassador KLOK KAOS
oh, and the premise questions...
I disagree that it met the premise. I don't think it relates to the PD, it makes several other vallid points that I didn't notice committed to paper in the PD and at best refferences it VS. replacing/substituting it as a more modern comprehension.
It also quotes Herman Hesse, but i wouldn't call it a redraft of his work either evne though his stuff is obviously influential.
I also had a gripe with the presentation(in some spots, not all), two ideas I had kinda blurred into each other though.
As far as quoting me goes, quote me in online forums all day but if you want to print anything I have to say as part of a concrete work (like a final draft of BLP) just run it by me before you send it to print so I can scrutinze my own bullshit as well as see how it is to be presented. If this seems a bit vain, you might also want to make fun of the fact that I won't let my picture be taken unless I've properly prepared like a class A premadonna. "No Blackmail!" monty python, life of brian
all i can really say is that if you follow this link (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12002.0), you will not see tubgirl or meatspin.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 23, 2007, 05:22:59 PM
Could be, after reading that though one might wonder why we don't just kill ourselves now, because you know, in the end, it won't matter.
Shut the fuck up, I haven't yet completed my essay against "Black Iron Prison" yet, and you are giving away the end.
Also, um...I can see your nuts in that picture...
I disagree wholeheartedly that cold, harsh realities befall you because you choose them.
I didn't fucking choose for my dad to go to prison in 2004.
I didn't fucking choose for my husband to get a fatal blood disease a month and a half ago so that only a bone marrow transplant will save his ass 100%.
I didn't fucking choose a LOT that is going on in my life right now.
But I'll tell you what I AM choosing: how I deal with it. How I survive it. How I get through each and every day thereafter. My choosing, my choices are made through, despite and because of these incidents that I never fucking chose to begin with.
You don't CHOOSE to be raped. Evar. You don't CHOOSE to have the biggest tragedies in your life happen. I only know this because I've lived through them and am still enduring them. I defy any motherfucker to stand here and tell me I chose this shit. That I chose to put my kids through it. That I chose my husband, and therefore his disease too.
BULLSHIT.
That's the biggest load I could ever think of. Or conceive of.
But what we CAN choose is how we live through them. Or don't. You can also just, as you say, hang yourself with the nearest and newest rope and get it the fuck over with. The reasons are varied for that particular action--selfishness being uppermost in my mind. Weakness being the second.
My prison in the BIP is the lack of acceptance of chaos. So chaos reigns. I have yet to submit, so a-whippings I must get. But I will NOT accept, either, the supposition that I chose to have these bullshit scenarios that defy all description. I'm on my knees half the time just picking up the pieces, trying to find a normal life pattern in my head to live through. BULLSHIT that I chose to have to do this, day-in, day-out. I choose to have otherwise, but I don't get otherwise. Unless I pretend, escape or forget.
If that's NOT what you meant, then I apologize. But I don't see myself following a life path that brought these particular things...these are situations that happened through forces unbeknownst and unsought-for by myself. I will not hold to any other theories.
Quote from: Jenne on March 24, 2007, 05:58:29 AM
I disagree wholeheartedly that cold, harsh realities befall you because you choose them.
I didn't fucking choose for my dad to go to prison in 2004.
I didn't fucking choose for my husband to get a fatal blood disease a month and a half ago so that only a bone marrow transplant will save his ass 100%.
I didn't fucking choose a LOT that is going on in my life right now.
But I'll tell you what I AM choosing: how I deal with it. How I survive it. How I get through each and every day thereafter. My choosing, my choices are made through, despite and because of these incidents that I never fucking chose to begin with.
...
My prison in the BIP is the lack of acceptance of chaos. So chaos reigns. I have yet to submit, so a-whippings I must get. But I will NOT accept, either, the supposition that I chose to have these bullshit scenarios that defy all description. I'm on my knees half the time just picking up the pieces, trying to find a normal life pattern in my head to live through. BULLSHIT that I chose to have to do this, day-in, day-out. I choose to have otherwise, but I don't get otherwise. Unless I pretend, escape or forget.
If that's NOT what you meant, then I apologize. But I don't see myself following a life path that brought these particular things...these are situations that happened through forces unbeknownst and unsought-for by myself. I will not hold to any other theories.
Let's try taht again, only this time with feeling....(reffering to the botched mpsot above)
Quote from: Jenne on March 24, 2007, 05:58:29 AM
I disagree wholeheartedly that cold, harsh realities befall you because you choose them.
I didn't fucking choose for my dad to go to prison in 2004.
I didn't fucking choose for my husband to get a fatal blood disease a month and a half ago so that only a bone marrow transplant will save his ass 100%.
I didn't fucking choose a LOT that is going on in my life right now.
But I'll tell you what I AM choosing: how I deal with it. How I survive it. How I get through each and every day thereafter. My choosing, my choices are made through, despite and because of these incidents that I never fucking chose to begin with.
...
My prison in the BIP is the lack of acceptance of chaos. So chaos reigns. I have yet to submit, so a-whippings I must get. But I will NOT accept, either, the supposition that I chose to have these bullshit scenarios that defy all description. I'm on my knees half the time just picking up the pieces, trying to find a normal life pattern in my head to live through. BULLSHIT that I chose to have to do this, day-in, day-out. I choose to have otherwise, but I don't get otherwise. Unless I pretend, escape or forget.
If that's NOT what you meant, then I apologize. But I don't see myself following a life path that brought these particular things...these are situations that happened through forces unbeknownst and unsought-for by myself. I will not hold to any other theories.
First, to help you understand, I am not denying your pain or anguish with my post, and I do express my condoloances for your life's difficulties.
To clarify, when I was saying one chooses their life's path it was in a sense that a) you choose how to deal with what life throws at you (which you seem to have a firm grasp on and I applaud that)
and B) that it is your unconscious that would be the chouse maker assuming such things were possible in what roles you were to play, be it good and bad, throughout your lifetime. It is absurd that your conscious mind chooses these things, that would very much lead one to a diagnosis of dangerous levels of megalomania. This means that although you MAY have chosen this life at some point it would be from a very alien perspective. The reason that this is usefull is because it places the responsibility of your life in your hands rather than finding something else to blame.
I'm almost certain that this next segment will do more harm than good for you but Ima try
it out on the off chance you can truly hear out recieve and incorperate what I'm saying...
I understand that you are angry about your personal life's tragedies. This is a natural response, but don't stop there and get locked into a mode of anger, that is only one of many steps of dealing and healing through problems. As a survivor of many personal tragedies myself I can tell you that I have found that once enough piles of tragedy build up you are forced understand that you never weren't in submission to the chaos. this illusion of control that you may have over your life is exactly that. Your conscious mind DOES NOT choose how your life will play out. This doesn't mean go abandon your hopes, dreams and life aspirations, indeed to do so would only be be a resistance to the will of your subconscious/spiritual/chao-esque self and would innevitably cause more friction as opposed to less, which it seems like is the desire of you conscious mind. What I am saying instead is you are not in control of your life, you never were and you never will be, at least from an external point of view. This means you can indeed choose to walk, run or drive to the grocery store or not even go at all, but you cannot choose consciously what will happen to you. The belief I'm proposing instead states you already picked or are currently picking how your life will play out from an external view. No, this is not to say that your eternal spirit stood in a line similar to the DMV and brought a contract before the clerk to sign off on pre birth or what not (or am I?) but rather to utilize this belief system, not even because it's right, but because it's usefull in assigning external responsibility to yourself so you don't waste time on self pity and how terrible your life is compared to everyone elses, which in turn reframes your mind to expect terrible things and takes away from the time you could be doing things to improve your situation.
In your case lets use your first example of your dad going to prison. can you do anything about it? probably not, maybe you could buy him a lawyer, maybe you can't, and maybe you even did, but even then you can't count on the fact that the lawyer can or will keep him out of prison. This is a situation you do not have control over. Should you A) get angry about it and let it be a detriment to your life as you have clearly expresssed that it is, or B) transfer that energy into something more usefull, like say planning a trip to visit him or send him a note and be a pillar of strength in his life when he needs you most? Wasteing energy on fits about what you do not have control over is not only a useless waste of valuable rescources, but is actually counterproductive in the long term because you could be and are not using those same rescources to better yourself and your situation; a loss of potential rescources. Following through on this brand thinking is much easier said than done, but it is doable.
Now I understand that my brand of thinking may not be acceptable to you. I understand that not everyone thinks the same why I do and that my way of thinking is NOT intended for everyone. There is no universal grid that doesn't conflict with itself and boggle the human mind in hypocricy. I would ask, however, that if you feel my belief system is too abstract that you allow for us to peaceably disagree. I would encourage you however, to reassess your situation. You know the limitations of your own BIP and yet you continue to neglect to break down the wall, and for what end? I don't know but I'm certain you have your reasons and I respect that, even though I would not choose such for myself as it seems to only perpetuate and exponentially increae the growth rate of one's life's own misery, and I'm certain I wouldn't want that, at least not for today (cuz it's my day off). Again, I do realize that I don't have all the answers and I neither can nor want to solve all your problems for you, but do take solace in the fact that it was not my intention to call upon bad feelings that upset you (which I appologize for), but instead I was attempting to share a method that I have found to consistently work for me in the hopes that it might prove usefull you in your get along.
What is good for me is not necessarilly good for you. For me, I feel like I've failed if i haven't learned a profound truth(s) when moving through a terrible tragedy in my life (and I indeed have issues to sort through, and always will, like everyone) but even then, that's OK, no one is capable of learning from every pain they suffer. People seem to want to hold on to difficult memories, myself incuded, and I don't knock you for being human.(just so long as you realize that unlike you mortals I was not born but instead blasted out of a supernova that resulted in the chaos of existence you see before you, woot. Enjoy the party. :lulz: )
I think that's all I have to say about that.
That was dumb...
reffering to the following...
For some reason my brain intertwined this BIP thing and started to think about it. Not the actual literature from the pamphlet my opinions of which I already stated above, but that maybe what I was saying had some merrit gauged by the appearance of both positive and negative review of what I was posting; meaning that if nothing else I'd touched on something that was not universally agreed upon and thusly have something that gave some people something to think about for better or worse. This of course made me think my poo doesn't actually stink (and it doesn't :mrgreen:) and that maybe I should take somewhat active interest in this BIP thing. In preparation for doing so I decdided to do some research on this thing I stumbled into the wiki version of this project which I felt was much more digestable than the BIP pamphlet as a whole, so I got excited and made a doodie in my pants (2 points for gratuitous bathroom humor). In any case, my next step is to sift through the data there and then see about writing an article and then posting it here first to see how fast it can be torn apart, who do I contact for the wiki project stuff, or do I?
AKK
holy shit
mr KAOS are you going to write all the time in huge chunks of text like this? cause if so, i'm afraid i cannot read it all
maybe next week i can print it off and have time to read it and make a reply, letters dance in front of my eyes if i try to read this all from a computer screen
yeah Kaos - it looks like you have something worth reading
but typing it like that makes it unreadable
Quote from: triple zero on March 24, 2007, 01:15:24 PM
holy shit
mr KAOS are you going to write all the time in huge chunks of text like this? cause if so, i'm afraid i cannot read it all
maybe next week i can print it off and have time to read it and make a reply, letters dance in front of my eyes if i try to read this all from a computer screen
Probably not, I'm not that motivated usually, but I make no promises for or against any specifici behaviors, except brains, I promise I will eet morr braynz.
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 24, 2007, 02:01:41 PMProbably not
okay then :mrgreen:
expect my reply somewhere next week ;-)
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 23, 2007, 08:18:59 PMyou opted to get here. You signed up for it and likely because it seemed like a good idea at the time
wtf?
that's stupid imo, but how did anyone sign up or opt in for existence?
the only thing that you might "opt in" for is the choice to stay alive, keep breathing, but really "opting out" isn't that easy--like trying to cancel your cable subscription, there's a lot of failsafes and other obstacles to cross.
"opting in" makes it sound like whatever-that's-supposed-to-be-opting-in (your soul?) somehow has a choice, an alternative for not being here. and if you're gonna count nonexistence as an alternative, think again, you first need to have the living breathing fleshmachine before there's any "soul" or whatever there to make a choice. because how can a nonexistent thing make a choice?
signing up for existence, for society or whatever, can make for a nice illustrative metaphore sometimes, but i wouldn't take it seriously.
Quoteit places the responsibility of your existence(s) squarley on your shoulders instead of pawning it off on some elusive and cruel god being and excusing you from responsibility to living your life.
responsibility for existence: no such thing
responsibility for living your life: most certainly
Quote from: triple zero on March 25, 2007, 12:56:53 PM
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 23, 2007, 08:18:59 PMyou opted to get here. You signed up for it and likely because it seemed like a good idea at the time
wtf?
that's stupid imo, but how did anyone sign up or opt in for existence?
the only thing that you might "opt in" for is the choice to stay alive, keep breathing, but really "opting out" isn't that easy--like trying to cancel your cable subscription, there's a lot of failsafes and other obstacles to cross.
"opting in" makes it sound like whatever-that's-supposed-to-be-opting-in (your soul?) somehow has a choice, an alternative for not being here. and if you're gonna count nonexistence as an alternative, think again, you first need to have the living breathing fleshmachine before there's any "soul" or whatever there to make a choice. because how can a nonexistent thing make a choice?
Q. How can a non-existent thing make a choice?
A. It was because it is.
(thanks for soliciting that response)
further, how it got there is of no consequence, but if it wasn't meant to it certainly wouldn't have.
I think you get that part better than most of everyone else so far, I was trying to keep this a bit less complicated than that however. I figured if anyone had that much thought to put into it they'd say so. Assuming then, that like everything you came from some swirling chaotic nether that decided to be at the point at which existence started, you would have issued forth from it, being a part of it "the sourse of existence" (which very well could be a self perpetuating canvas that always was) the whim of that thingy would have decided that you should be splintered off for some reason, even if it wasn't done on purpose, some preset law would have made it allowable by existence, (thus you could spin off at a randomly determined point, but the descision for that to be possible had to come from somewhere, thus makeing it the will of that which you came, and thus your will). As far as non-existence not being a choice, well I don't know the answer to that and I'm not a hurry to find out as I'm sure I'll get there when I get there. Debating this further would be to debate things like memes, collective unconscious and souls, at which point I have to call shinnanigans and give orders to fuck pigs. Not because I think I know, or because I believe in anything, but because those kinds of arguments are boring and always go in circles that devlove into "I'm right because I said so" as no factual data exists to support it. My idea presented is presented slightly differently, I don't claim that it's right or good or nice, but that it can be usefull and should be utilized in situations where it can have beneficial effects.
Quotesigning up for existence, for society or whatever, can make for a nice illustrative metaphore sometimes, but i wouldn't take it seriously.
I agree completely, taking life seriously puts you in the mental hospital.
Quoteit places the responsibility of your existence(s) squarley on your shoulders instead of pawning it off on some elusive and cruel god being and excusing you from responsibility to living your life.
responsibility for existence: no such thing
responsibility for living your life: most certainly
[/quote]
agreed, but that's too abstract for most folks I've encountered up till now. More correctly though I'd state that existence is responsible for existence and it will continue to be whatever you do. The way i chose to phrase this rant was after having related this concept a dozen or more times in my life to people who would rather blame the external difficulties of their lives on some cruel all-being, on the problem itself, or on an unrelated but equally not responsible token. As such I phrased it in a way for that audience with the purpose of attempting to ween them off of the need to blame someone else for life sucking when they should be looking to themselves to fix their own shit. even then, I think that people are indeed addicted to negativity by their very nature and though you may not wake up and say "gee, I'd like to get shot today" (or maybe you do) that people are in need of negativity and a certain ammount of grief in life is necessary. If nothing else, from a chemical perspective in how your hormones interact and distribute through your body. Thanks though for engaging me on a level I haven't been met at yet, whether it was done on purpose or not.
i think you underestimate (some of) us.
both on the "too abstract"/"not too complicated" part,
and on the circular arguments part that don't evolve in nothing or "right because i said so"
there often enough comes along some smart fellow that hits us over the head with a barstool, pragmatism or even just plain and simple sums up where we've been going so far
we're not here to try and find out who's got the right answer, because nobody is right, we just try to go look for a new answer ourselves, workin from the premise that the more people can actually live with the answer, the better it is
Quote from: triple zero on March 25, 2007, 06:53:52 PM
i think you underestimate (some of) us.
both on the "too abstract"/"not too complicated" part,
and on the circular arguments part that don't evolve in nothing or "right because i said so"
there often enough comes along some smart fellow that hits us over the head with a barstool, pragmatism or even just plain and simple sums up where we've been going so far
we're not here to try and find out who's got the right answer, because nobody is right, we just try to go look for a new answer ourselves, workin from the premise that the more people can actually live with the answer, the better it is
Admittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb. I'd say I'm still in kind of in shock of discovering a community of people who can exchange ideas on the pretentious level and still find the value in punching eachother squarly in the genitals (at least verbally) and ripping apart good ideas to shreds and then take the confetti to recofigure the information into something it was hopefully never intended to be. I appologize for that. Please understand that I have 25 years of experience that states that this is not a common thing, and like you said it's only "some of us" and even then, I'd argue that anyone can be caught with their pants down, the real question then being then, how they deal with it from there.
I disagree wholeheartedly, however, that the more people who can live the answer the better as every answer is likely to be usefull to existence at some point (I'm pretty certain a lot of jews coulda lived without the holocaust idea [ba doom tsh... start the fire now...] but existence seeme to think it was usefull for the time being, much like many other shitty things in history), but I do prefer to hang around people that like the same or similar answers I do. This breeds a tendancy in me to want to play nice with others (in relative not literal way :fnord:) so that I have more rescources from which to draw from collectively. Besides, resistance is futile, I saw it on TV...
And that is why you must never take off your tin foil hat.
There may or may not have been a point in there.
AKK
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 07:27:33 PM
Admittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb.
Welcome to the monkey house.
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 23, 2007, 05:05:26 PM
So over all I feel that the premise of the book failed for me. being that in some forum I read that it was designed to revisit the PD and bring it in to a more up to date format. Sure there are more pop culture references (like cell phonesz nad web pages) that are "more modern" but the term "bowling alley" is still understood and until what it is is lost in time I think the term works just fine as opposed to saying that Eris was discovered at an internet cafe or whatever futuristic hop might exist when the term bowling alley is no longer understood. Even then, we can still figure out the shit in shakespear with a few cliff notes so I say that the idea of updating it is shinanigans. It's not necessary, and even if it was, the message of the story of the discover of eris is the same whether it be a bowling alley, disney land, an internet cafe or your mothers basement.
On a different note however, this book does tread into some new territory and makes it valuable unto itself. I think the premise should be changed rather to using the PD as a luanching pad for this book, not to make it the PD rediscovered and repackaged with one of 6 coloful prizes inside. (collect them all!)
I also read in some other forum commentary that this thing was really a bummer. Maybe in some spots, but I think that what the real problem is is not that it is at all depressing, because if you read the PD it too certainly covers depressing crap, is that it doesn't engage/solicit a thought response as much as it accuses(elliciting a negative response in the reader), which of course was the genious of the PD. I think it's a well defined fact that everyone believes they are superior in some way especially if they are one of the sheep you are trying to reach via this pamphlet. It's bred into their thinking to make them think they are special so that they don't question authority and complacently accept the fates they are handed and instead indulge in what is deemed to be fit for them. This allows them to build their own BIP by believing that their is vastly superior and also disarm the intellectual bomb you hand them with the BIP as inferior as they have already convinced themsleves that they are happy in their own BIP and you are now a jerk (in their mind) for disrupting that. I think a good chunk should be rewritten to point at these things and let the reader discover it for themselves, thinking now that they are instead the genious and not you for writing it to begin with. They don't care about you, they care about how "teh awesome" they are and they need you to reinforce that until they feel comfortable letting you infect their head, and they, the audience is who you are writing this for no matter how much one tries to delude themself into thinking they are making art for art's sake or just for personal reasons... Quite simply, who wants to stick around for something that's not a good time?
That brings me to another point, which actually contradicts that last point. People enjoy suffering. They revel in it and as far as history has ever recorded human existence is measured in misery, not dollars and cents. They feel it makes them special and thus justifies that they know how best to create their own BIP because *you* couldn't possibly undertand (and the truth is you can't). Little do most people know that they are indeed not independant and really have no real measure of control over anything (touching on the whole fish tank segment in BIP, the fish doesn't know it's wet, etc.) and people who do think that they are independant are in the very least slaves of some defunct economist. The simple truth is you will not eat unless you do someone else's bidding, it's just a measure of how much shit your willing to swallow. Even assuming the best of circumstances, that you inherrit tax free airable land and are trained to reap what you sew early on in life, if you do this you will have time for little else (the more you struggle to survive the tighter the girdle gets) and eventually some jerk will come along and kill you and take your shit becuase you have it and he doesn't, which is how we end up with surplus anyhow, by fucking other people out of what they have rightfully worked for. If, on the other hand, you suck the corperate cock and pay your taxes you get a measure of protection afforded to you because, as a tool, you pay these people in dues of your own personal dignity and strongarm money(commonly known as taxes). In return they allow you certain freedoms, in this instance the ability to write a book that slams them (the BIP).
The thing is why be so angry about it? You are still choosing to do these things. You choose to reject or embrace the scenario for your own ends anyhow. The only way things might be different is if the world took to our personal ideals as a paradigm , in which case your ideals would be impressed on someone else who didn't want them and they in turn would right the BIP instead of you. reality exists as it must and under the best possible circumastances, and if you don't think so, keep in mind that a positive attitude will solve many of your problems, and the ones it doesn't solve will be made up for in the joy how many you people you piss off with a big ignorant shit eating grin on your face. People are a product of their environment as well as being masters of their fates. It that dynamism that keeps life interesting. That is why any of us are still alive, because we want to see what happens next ... to see just how fucked up this life shit can get, like a kid jumping in the seat of the scariest rollercoaster, and much like the kid, the memory and excitement will fade in time, like the wonderfull cup of coffee you had 2 monday mornings ago. It just doesn't seem relavent to think about it once you've enjoyed it now does it? Gotta love human nature and it's absurdity.
This leads me into a further ramble whch may just be the point of all this other rambling, we'll find out...
I tend to think that life doesn't suck so bad. Sure it bites, but it has to. A certain ammount of grief is necessary in life. Without it there would be no basis for comparrison and you wouldn't even know if you were having fun (...and maybe you don't and suffer(?) from malaise). The duality of existence is much what makes it exciting and fun. I have a private theory that states you signed up for this life and you are getting absolutely everything you asked for and wanted in the deal, including depression, tragedy, pain and suffering.
"BUT THAT IS COLD! Do you mean to tell me that some 14 year old girl really wanted to get raped and that the fetus really wanted to die at birth and kill it's own mother in the process!"
Yeah, actually. And here's why. When you die, no matter what happens afterword you won't care about what happened in life. It will cease to matter just like that rollercoaster from when you were 8, as matter of fact, now that you're in your mid fifties that rollercoaster idea isn't sounding so hot and exciting anymore... maybe I'll just pass this round out...
being violently murdered, abused or what not will not matter in the grand scheme of things no matter what happens when you die, and you won't care. If you are reincarnated, you won't remember, if you are void and cease to exist, it won't matter and if you go to some heaven or hell after life you are likely to be preoccupied with whatever you are doing (like you are now) and whatver happened in life, still, won't matter, you still won't care. Maybe in some brief flash of nostalgic memeory, like that nice cup of coffee from 2 mondays ago, but you won't really care. In this respect, mankind will approach beginning solving all his problems when he ceaes to take life so seriously. I restated that from the PD beause I also believe that the very nature of existence makes it so that problems are necessary as part of the experience and there is no real way to solve them, as is illustrated by the bit about eris on the radio.
I'll end with an emphasis on my point that is drawn from Hitch hiker's Guide though loosely translated here...
the richest men in all the universe commissioned to have their own custom built paradise planets built to specification for maximum enjoyment. At the end of the day these men found that they were still depressed no matter how many virgins fed them hand peeled grapes a day, usually over something as trivial as the sky being the wrong shade of pink as the sun set after an otherwise perfect day of relaxing.
What can be learned here? Mankind has no friggen clue what it wants. That is part of the game, people are fickle and dumb, including you and I. It's also what keeps us alive (steven hawkings: "it is not clear that intelligence is connected with long term survivability.")... the need to seek out new shit. If you want people to really be influenced by the BIP, appeal to that. My grandfather, the lord of all quotes, often plaugerized an old saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you can catch 10 times as many than both combined with a big steaming pile of horse shit."
Because Fuck them, and that's why.
Ambassador KLOK KAOS
PS I noticed a bit about people being randomly quoted for insertion in some rant based section of the forum on BIP for possible. I don' have any qualms with this but if anything I have to say is to go into print I do want to have it run by me first so I can see it in context because I am egotistical.
PSS I followed an old link to BIP and the pages weren't in order (maybe they weren't supposed to be?) so if my impression is coming from an outdated verrsion, please flame me incessently for my ignorance and send me a link to the new one which is actually meatspinners in disguise. I would love that. It would be educational. Do it for the children.
Will read this when it is rendered readable with paragraph breaks, etc.
You know what your problem is, AK?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 07:28:48 PM
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 07:27:33 PM
Admittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb.
Welcome to the monkey house.
*Picks fleas off of self and eats them*
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 07:33:09 PM
Will read this when it is rendered readable with paragraph breaks, etc.
You know what your problem is, AK?
NEVAR!!!!!
I refuse to use to gooding grammarishness for the sake of the people attempting to understand my dribble. LMNO said something about possibly putting in paragraph breaks and reposting select segments somewhere else though. Maybe that will be less of an eyesore :gheyforum:
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 07:33:09 PM
Will read this when it is rendered readable with paragraph breaks, etc.
You know what your problem is, AK?
NEVAR!!!!!
I refuse to use to gooding grammarishness for the sake of the people attempting to understand my dribble. LMNO said something about possibly putting in paragraph breaks and reposting select segments somewhere else though. Maybe that will be less of an eyesore :gheyforum:
Okay. I just won't bother with your threads, then.
rog
you could always just wait 11 posts
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 25, 2007, 07:54:51 PM
rog
you could always just wait 11 posts
I AM waiting 11 more posts.
TGRR,
Can hardly fucking wait.
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 07:27:33 PMAdmittedly yes, I am conditioned to believe that all humans R teh dumb. I'd say (...)
hmhmhm okay
this is long
scanning scanning
hey last line
Quote(...) And that is why you must never take off your tin foil hat.
There may or may not have been a point in there.
WHAT THE FUCK AND YOU WANTED ME TO READ ALL THAT AND THEN FIGURE OUT FOR YOU WHETHER THERE'S A POINT OR NOT
YOU ARE NOT AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF MONKEYS WITH AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF TYPEWRITERS SO STOP TRYING
10 more posts and a wonderful day!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 07:56:01 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 25, 2007, 07:54:51 PM
rog
you could always just wait 11 posts
I AM waiting 11 more posts.
TGRR,
Can hardly fucking wait.
Why wait? I mean, unless you plan fucking with my bank account or personal health I doubt anything is likely to upset me. Seriously mang, have some fun, that's why I came here. Still, I'll respect your descision not to fuck newbies too harshly till the 50 mark if that does it for you. Not trying to incurr wrath, just saying man, get on with your bad self if that's what you think is right.
As long as everyone is having a good time who cares? And if you're not, well, say something about it.
:popcorn:
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 08:40:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 07:56:01 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 25, 2007, 07:54:51 PM
rog
you could always just wait 11 posts
I AM waiting 11 more posts.
TGRR,
Can hardly fucking wait.
Why wait? I mean, unless you plan fucking with my bank account or personal health I doubt anything is likely to upset me. Seriously mang, have some fun, that's why I came here. Still, I'll respect your descision not to fuck newbies too harshly till the 50 mark if that does it for you. Not trying to incurr wrath, just saying man, get on with your bad self if that's what you think is right.
As long as everyone is having a good time who cares? And if you're not, well, say something about it.
:popcorn:
man - youre taking the time to type up those posts - at least make them legible
have some respect for your audience
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 08:40:16 PM
Why wait? I mean, unless you plan fucking with my bank account or personal health I doubt anything is likely to upset me.
Everyone says that.
Just saying.
Quote from: LHX on March 25, 2007, 08:43:15 PM
man - youre taking the time to type up those posts - at least make them legible
have some respect for your audience
The people have spoken (I think that's like hte 3rd complaint). Point taken.
I suppose I didn't assign any of my unimportant mind dribble thus far as warranting propper format. I'll make an effort to be more coscientious, but don't expect essay format unless I'm writing an article.
AKK
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 08:52:08 PM
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 08:40:16 PM
Why wait? I mean, unless you plan fucking with my bank account or personal health I doubt anything is likely to upset me.
Everyone says that.
Just saying.
Nah, just the people that are full of themselves.
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 08:54:47 PM
Quote from: LHX on March 25, 2007, 08:43:15 PM
man - youre taking the time to type up those posts - at least make them legible
have some respect for your audience
The people have spoken (I think that's like hte 3rd complaint). Point taken.
I suppose I didn't assign any of my unimportant mind dribble thus far as warranting propper format. I'll make an effort to be more coscientious, but don't expect essay format unless I'm writing an article.
AKK
Word of advice - try to distil yuor thoughts a bit, into smaller posts
Assume we aint gonna spend as much time on it as you do
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 25, 2007, 08:56:43 PM
Word of advice - try to distil yuor thoughts a bit, into smaller posts
Assume we aint gonna spend as much time on it as you do
Let me enjoy my new toy! In time excitment will die down, this I know, but I just ripped this fucker outta the package!
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 09:00:16 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 25, 2007, 08:56:43 PM
Word of advice - try to distil yuor thoughts a bit, into smaller posts
Assume we aint gonna spend as much time on it as you do
Let me enjoy my new toy! In time excitment will die down, this I know, but I just ripped this fucker outta the package!
Point. In time, you'll be just as hateful, bitter, and jaded as the rest of us.
We're just trying to speed that up a bit.
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 08:54:47 PM
Quote from: LHX on March 25, 2007, 08:43:15 PM
man - youre taking the time to type up those posts - at least make them legible
have some respect for your audience
The people have spoken (I think that's like hte 3rd complaint). Point taken.
I suppose I didn't assign any of my unimportant mind dribble thus far as warranting propper format. I'll make an effort to be more coscientious, but don't expect essay format unless I'm writing an article.
AKK
NO NO NO
essay format is like the OPPOSITE of what you want to be spitting out
sentences
short
line breaks
think of it as optical ergonomics
Don't listen to LHX. He's bad for you.
Quote from: LHX on March 25, 2007, 09:08:27 PM
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 08:54:47 PM
Quote from: LHX on March 25, 2007, 08:43:15 PM
man - youre taking the time to type up those posts - at least make them legible
have some respect for your audience
The people have spoken (I think that's like hte 3rd complaint). Point taken.
I suppose I didn't assign any of my unimportant mind dribble thus far as warranting propper format. I'll make an effort to be more coscientious, but don't expect essay format unless I'm writing an article.
AKK
NO NO NO
essay format is like the OPPOSITE of what you want to be spitting out
sentences
short
line breaks
think of it as optical ergonomics
,Ñ¢
Quote from: LHX on March 25, 2007, 09:08:27 PM
NO NO NO
essay format is like the OPPOSITE of what you want to be spitting out
sentences
short
line breaks
think of it as optical ergonomics
Fair enough.
Thanks for the advice.
Never been motivated to really partake in forum b4.
All the other ones I ever went to sucked balls.
*Chews Face*
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 09:03:38 PM
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 09:00:16 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 25, 2007, 08:56:43 PM
Word of advice - try to distil yuor thoughts a bit, into smaller posts
Assume we aint gonna spend as much time on it as you do
Let me enjoy my new toy! In time excitment will die down, this I know, but I just ripped this fucker outta the package!
Point. In time, you'll be just as hateful, bitter, and jaded as the rest of us.
We're just trying to speed that up a bit.
Sorry? I had something in my eye, it sounded like you typed...
"In time, we'll find out that your just as hatefull, bitter, and jaded as the rest of us."
/FIX
no thats not what he typed
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 09:32:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 25, 2007, 09:03:38 PM
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 25, 2007, 09:00:16 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 25, 2007, 08:56:43 PM
Word of advice - try to distil yuor thoughts a bit, into smaller posts
Assume we aint gonna spend as much time on it as you do
Let me enjoy my new toy! In time excitment will die down, this I know, but I just ripped this fucker outta the package!
Point. In time, you'll be just as hateful, bitter, and jaded as the rest of us.
We're just trying to speed that up a bit.
Sorry? I had something in my eye, it sounded like you typed...
"In time, we'll find out that your just as hatefull, bitter, and jaded as the rest of us."
/FIX
Leave this sort of trolling to the professionals, dude.
trolling? doesn't that imply some sorta ill intent?
Cuz I don't really have the energy to waste on anything but amusing and abusing myself.
I'm certain I'm no proffessional at the forum thingy though. I'll tip my hat to that, but that doesn't mean I'm inclined to suck a dick. Try and keep that in mind. Or don't.
:hammer:
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 26, 2007, 04:20:23 AM
trolling? doesn't that imply some sorta ill intent?
Not here.
Just where the hell did you think you landed, sonny? the eagleforums? :lol:
Trolling, here, is the sport of KINGS.
Because I'm a nice guy:
Quote from: Ambassador KAOS on March 23, 2007, 05:05:26 PM
So over all I feel that the premise of the book failed for me. being that in some forum I read that it was designed to revisit the PD and bring it in to a more up to date format. Sure there are more pop culture references (like cell phonesz nad web pages) that are "more modern" but the term "bowling alley" is still understood and until what it is is lost in time, I think the term works just fine as opposed to saying that Eris was discovered at an internet cafe or whatever futuristic hop might exist when the term bowling alley is no longer understood.
Even then, we can still figure out the shit in shakespear with a few cliff notes so I say that the idea of updating it is shinanigans. It's not necessary, and even if it was, the message of the story of the discover of eris is the same whether it be a bowling alley, disney land, an internet cafe or your mothers basement.
On a different note however, this book does tread into some new territory and makes it valuable unto itself. I think the premise should be changed rather to using the PD as a luanching pad for this book, not to make it the PD rediscovered and repackaged with one of 6 coloful prizes inside. (collect them all!)
I also read in some other forum commentary that this thing was really a bummer. Maybe in some spots, but I think that what the real problem is is not that it is at all depressing, because if you read the PD it too certainly covers depressing crap, is that it doesn't engage/solicit a thought response as much as it accuses(elliciting a negative response in the reader), which of course was the genious of the PD.
I think it's a well defined fact that everyone believes they are superior in some way especially if they are one of the sheep you are trying to reach via this pamphlet. It's bred into their thinking to make them think they are special so that they don't question authority and complacently accept the fates they are handed and instead indulge in what is deemed to be fit for them.
This allows them to build their own BIP by believing that their is vastly superior and also disarm the intellectual bomb you hand them with the BIP as inferior as they have already convinced themsleves that they are happy in their own BIP and you are now a jerk (in their mind) for disrupting that.
I think a good chunk should be rewritten to point at these things and let the reader discover it for themselves, thinking now that they are instead the genious and not you for writing it to begin with. They don't care about you, they care about how "teh awesome" they are and they need you to reinforce that until they feel comfortable letting you infect their head, and they, the audience is who you are writing this for no matter how much one tries to delude themself into thinking they are making art for art's sake or just for personal reasons... Quite simply, who wants to stick around for something that's not a good time?
That brings me to another point, which actually contradicts that last point. People enjoy suffering. They revel in it and as far as history has ever recorded human existence is measured in misery, not dollars and cents. They feel it makes them special and thus justifies that they know how best to create their own BIP because *you* couldn't possibly undertand (and the truth is you can't).
Little do most people know that they are indeed not independant and really have no real measure of control over anything (touching on the whole fish tank segment in BIP, the fish doesn't know it's wet, etc.) and people who do think that they are independant are in the very least slaves of some defunct economist. The simple truth is you will not eat unless you do someone else's bidding, it's just a measure of how much shit your willing to swallow.
Even assuming the best of circumstances, that you inherrit tax free airable land and are trained to reap what you sew early on in life, if you do this you will have time for little else (the more you struggle to survive the tighter the girdle gets) and eventually some jerk will come along and kill you and take your shit becuase you have it and he doesn't, which is how we end up with surplus anyhow, by fucking other people out of what they have rightfully worked for.
If, on the other hand, you suck the corperate cock and pay your taxes you get a measure of protection afforded to you because, as a tool, you pay these people in dues of your own personal dignity and strongarm money(commonly known as taxes). In return they allow you certain freedoms, in this instance the ability to write a book that slams them (the BIP).
The thing is why be so angry about it? You are still choosing to do these things. You choose to reject or embrace the scenario for your own ends anyhow. The only way things might be different is if the world took to our personal ideals as a paradigm , in which case your ideals would be impressed on someone else who didn't want them and they in turn would right the BIP instead of you.
Reality exists as it must and under the best possible circumastances, and if you don't think so, keep in mind that a positive attitude will solve many of your problems, and the ones it doesn't solve will be made up for in the joy how many you people you piss off with a big ignorant shit eating grin on your face. People are a product of their environment as well as being masters of their fates. It,Äôs that dynamism that keeps life interesting.
That is why any of us are still alive, because we want to see what happens next ... to see just how fucked up this life shit can get, like a kid jumping in the seat of the scariest rollercoaster, and much like the kid, the memory and excitement will fade in time, like the wonderfull cup of coffee you had 2 monday mornings ago. It just doesn't seem relavent to think about it once you've enjoyed it now does it? Gotta love human nature and it's absurdity.
This leads me into a further ramble whch may just be the point of all this other rambling, we'll find out...
I tend to think that life doesn't suck so bad. Sure it bites, but it has to. A certain ammount of grief is necessary in life. Without it there would be no basis for comparrison and you wouldn't even know if you were having fun (...and maybe you don't and suffer(?) from malaise). The duality of existence is much what makes it exciting and fun. I have a private theory that states you signed up for this life and you are getting absolutely everything you asked for and wanted in the deal, including depression, tragedy, pain and suffering.
"BUT THAT IS COLD! Do you mean to tell me that some 14 year old girl really wanted to get raped and that the fetus really wanted to die at birth and kill it's own mother in the process!"
Yeah, actually. And here's why. When you die, no matter what happens afterword you won't care about what happened in life. It will cease to matter just like that rollercoaster from when you were 8, as matter of fact, now that you're in your mid fifties that rollercoaster idea isn't sounding so hot and exciting anymore... maybe I'll just pass this round out...
being violently murdered, abused or what not will not matter in the grand scheme of things no matter what happens when you die, and you won't care. If you are reincarnated, you won't remember, if you are void and cease to exist, it won't matter and if you go to some heaven or hell after life you are likely to be preoccupied with whatever you are doing (like you are now) and whatver happened in life, still, won't matter, you still won't care.
Maybe in some brief flash of nostalgic memeory, like that nice cup of coffee from 2 mondays ago, but you won't really care. In this respect, mankind will approach beginning solving all his problems when he ceaes to take life so seriously. I restated that from the PD beause I also believe that the very nature of existence makes it so that problems are necessary as part of the experience and there is no real way to solve them, as is illustrated by the bit about eris on the radio.
I'll end with an emphasis on my point that is drawn from Hitch hiker's Guide though loosely translated here...
the richest men in all the universe commissioned to have their own custom built paradise planets built to specification for maximum enjoyment. At the end of the day these men found that they were still depressed no matter how many virgins fed them hand peeled grapes a day, usually over something as trivial as the sky being the wrong shade of pink as the sun set after an otherwise perfect day of relaxing.
What can be learned here? Mankind has no friggen clue what it wants. That is part of the game, people are fickle and dumb, including you and I. It's also what keeps us alive (steven hawkings: "it is not clear that intelligence is connected with long term survivability.")... the need to seek out new shit. If you want people to really be influenced by the BIP, appeal to that. My grandfather, the lord of all quotes, often plaugerized an old saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you can catch 10 times as many than both combined with a big steaming pile of horse shit."
Because Fuck them, and that's why.
Ambassador KLOK KAOS
PS I noticed a bit about people being randomly quoted for insertion in some rant based section of the forum on BIP for possible. I don' have any qualms with this but if anything I have to say is to go into print I do want to have it run by me first so I can see it in context because I am egotistical.
PSS I followed an old link to BIP and the pages weren't in order (maybe they weren't supposed to be?) so if my impression is coming from an outdated verrsion, please flame me incessently for my ignorance and send me a link to the new one which is actually meatspinners in disguise. I would love that. It would be educational. Do it for the children.
However, it still sounds like Nihilism combinded with PreDeterminism.
Quote from: LMNO on March 26, 2007, 01:19:53 PM
Because I'm a nice guy:
However, it still sounds like Nihilism combinded with PreDeterminism.
Noted, that was probably the frame of mind I was in when I wrote that.
In addition, this isn't the only point of view I write from, just the mode I was in at the moment.
I think it's important to never rely too heavy on any specific philosophy or combinations of philosophies as innevitably any given strategy will fail and much like a magician, it's important not to use the same trick twice or people will catch on and cease to be amazed.
Also,
You roxz0rz, thankses for cleaning that up.
:taco: