The Good Reverend Roger has talked quite a bit about this in the past. Appologies to him if I infringe upon his material.
It seems to me that free will is an entirely useless concept. It assumes that freedom is something granted, by deity, creator, or whatever supernatural force you believe in. But if freedom can be granted, it can be taken away. If freedom can be taken from you, are you truly free? Freedom granted is not freedom at all.
Real freedom, if it exists, must come from oneself. It originates in our own action, and specifically, our choice of action. Its not a part of a society, an abstract principle. The American Declaration of Independance speaks of the inalienable liberty, something that can not be taken away, even if one tries. This liberty is inherent in every person, and it exists as choice. Not the ability to choose, but the choices made themselves. Ask yourself, do these choices follow my own path, my own values, or do they follow those of someone else? Its not important if your choices coincide with other peoples, or do not. Freedom is having the choice be your own, considering and deciding for oneself, not letting you be blindly dictated, or not. Self responsibility nicely follows. "I take this road. It is my decision, and mine alone, and thus the concequences of that action I take upon myself."
The possession of that choice is where the freedom lies. You may be taken to jail for an action you are responsible for, yet your freedom is not hindered. In actuallity, you may have excersiced more freedom than the guards who block your exit. This is because freedom is not the opportunities that life presents, but what you choose to do with them.
The same can be said of rights. If they are truely unalienable, they are not granted by someone else, they are part of oneself. A constitution is just a piece of paper with some scribbles. The freedom of speech is truly free not because its an amendment. Besides, many say that the US Constitution is dead from injury to its precepts.
I continue on with these as a part of myself. No deity grants me freedom, no document grants me rights. These are things I take for myself now and will continue to. I choose myself. That is freedom.
Ramblings, yes. I had to say it though.
Well said, BMW.
I was thinking pretty much the same thing (though not quite so eloquent.... or even coherent...) when that "freewill vs determinism" BS started flowing.
I've noticed an alarming (to me) tendancy among some people to equate irresponsibility with "freedom". They also have strange notions on what "rights" are. Maybe they'll read this....
How does that saying go: "You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
Even so, thanks all the same.
"Therefore the Master concerns himself
with the depths and not the surface,
with the fruit and not the flower.
He has no will of his own.
He dwells in reality,
and lets all illusions go."
BMW,
:mittens:
well said! truly some good words to live by (not intended as "to blindly follow"--hope you get what i mean)
the "free will BS/discussion" doesn't really have much to do with this, IMO, is more a theoretical/philosophical discussion point for me. simply because if it takes so long to realize/come to conclusion, it's not much use for everyday-use anyway.
I like it alot
easy to understand
we have to find a good use for this
Thanks y'all. :D
Quote from: Random Probability on March 23, 2007, 11:08:37 PM
I've noticed an alarming (to me) tendency among some people to equate irresponsibility with "freedom". They also have strange notions on what "rights" are. Maybe they'll read this...
Society seems to have strange ideas of these concepts. Maybe because society, like religion, want control of the populous. You don't keep control by reminding people what real freedom is, you keep it by twisting the meaning, making freedom something abstract, when it is actually quite concrete.
Very good stuff.
:thumb:
Too idealistic to be useful, IMO.
Freedom ≠ choice.
Incarceration is a real limit on your freedom.
Severe illness is a real limit on your freedom.
Ignorance is a real limit on your freedom.
QuoteThe possession of that choice is where the freedom lies. You may be taken to jail for an action you are responsible for, yet your freedom is not hindered. In actuallity, you may have excersiced more freedom than the guards who block your exit. This is because freedom is not the opportunities that life presents, but what you choose to do with them.
Come on. That's laughable. And it's highly abstract, not concrete as you claim.
Freedom only has meaning in the context of particular situations,Äîthat's how you make it concrete. Once you remove it from the horrors of empirical judgement, you can add glitter and all sorts of froof to your generalities.
Yes, freedom involves choice, but it IS NOT the mere ability to make choices. It's also about being able to act on your choices and having a reasonable understanding of the consequences for those actions.
The idea that you can make decisions without any outside influence is not real freedom. It's a solipsistic liability and the epitome of hubris.
I would begin my rebuttal by saying that this was more or less a rant, and as a rant it is less an arguement and more an expression of emotional draw than a philosophical work. Still I will respond to all your arguements in turn.
The whole of the piece sits on the idea that freedom is a quality that cannot be taken from a person. The only thing that could not be presently taken from a person is their choices. If that is not freedom, then freedom is not something belonging to yourself, it is something given to you and thus can be taken away. It either exists as choice or it does not exist at all.
Illness, incarceration, and ignorance are a limit on the options you have when making a decision, but freedom is not options. Having a bunch of options doesn't mean you excersized freedom. You could be in good health, unincarcerated, and relatively uneducated, and still excersise freedom.
If freedom is some abstract principle, I would say that it doesn't really exist. However, as choice, freedom is concrete. Its a verb, not a noun.
Quote
Freedom only has meaning in the context of particular situations,Äîthat's how you make it concrete. Once you remove it from the horrors of empirical judgement, you can add glitter and all sorts of froof to your generalities.
Context matters in the sense of making a decision. I would like you to show me where I said that consideration was not important. The example of incarceration that I gave was illuding to the case of MLKJR, where he would protest, and go willingly to jail. He could have run, he could have fought it. He considered his actions, made the choice and took responsibility. That was freedom right there.
Please point out to me where I said that "ability" had to do with freedom. As I remember it, I said that it was not ability to choose, but the choice itself, that was where freedom was.
Quote
The idea that you can make decisions without any outside influence is not real freedom. It's a solipsistic liability and the epitome of hubris.
Again, I never made any claim that decisions are shallow or narrow in their reach. But I do believe that freedom lies on oneself, and not any other person or document, or societal ideal. To believe otherwise would be to yeild freedom altogether. There would be no such thing. You call that solipsistic, but I call it realism.
Quote from: Netaungrot on March 27, 2007, 02:17:18 AM
Too idealistic to be useful, IMO.
Freedom ≠ choice.
Incarceration is a real limit on your freedom.
Severe illness is a real limit on your freedom.
Ignorance is a real limit on your freedom.
QuoteThe possession of that choice is where the freedom lies. You may be taken to jail for an action you are responsible for, yet your freedom is not hindered. In actuallity, you may have excersiced more freedom than the guards who block your exit. This is because freedom is not the opportunities that life presents, but what you choose to do with them.
Come on. That's laughable. And it's highly abstract, not concrete as you claim.
Freedom only has meaning in the context of particular situations,Äîthat's how you make it concrete. Once you remove it from the horrors of empirical judgement, you can add glitter and all sorts of froof to your generalities.
Yes, freedom involves choice, but it IS NOT the mere ability to make choices. It's also about being able to act on your choices and having a reasonable understanding of the consequences for those actions.
The idea that you can make decisions without any outside influence is not real freedom. It's a solipsistic liability and the epitome of hubris.
QuoteI would begin my rebuttal by saying that this was more or less a rant, and as a rant it is less an arguement and more an expression of emotional draw than a philosophical work.
I don't think they need to be mutually exclusive.
When people are denied education they are denied choices they didn't know they had. That's an infringement on their freedom by your own definition.
But freedom is more than choice.
Mentally ill people can choose between killing the insects under their elbow skin or the arachnids under their nipples, but when we know these are hallucinations, we don't call this freedom.
But perhaps you do.
QuoteBut I do believe that freedom lies on oneself, and not any other person or document, or societal ideal. To believe otherwise would be to yeild freedom altogether. There would be no such thing. You call that solipsistic, but I call it realism.
You didn't address my point about freedom having to do with BOTH choice and action.
If you don't have the ability to carry out choices, then what good are they?
If your choices are based on false ideas, what good are they?
If your brain is comatose, how do you make choices in the first place?
QuoteI would begin my rebuttal by saying that this was more or less a rant, and as a rant it is less an arguement and more an expression of emotional draw than a philosophical work.
QuoteI don't think they need to be mutually exclusive.
When people are denied education they are denied choices they didn't know they had. That's an infringement on their freedom by your own definition.
I don't think you understand. When I say choice I mean
the choice they make, not the options they have. The two are not the same. Its not an inpingment upon freedom. It is however, very fucktardly.
QuoteBut freedom is more than choice.
Again, I think you are equating choice with options.
Mentally ill people can choose between killing the insects under their elbow skin or the arachnids under their nipples, but when we know these are hallucinations, we don't call this freedom.
Or they could choose to ignore the hallucinations, etc. Those are options. The options are not the freedom, the making of the decision is.
QuoteBut perhaps you do.
QuoteBut I do believe that freedom lies on oneself, and not any other person or document, or societal ideal. To believe otherwise would be to yeild freedom altogether. There would be no such thing. You call that solipsistic, but I call it realism.
You didn't address my point about freedom having to do with BOTH choice and action.
I DID adress it. Choice when I say it means the decided action. Thus the decision leads into the action.
QuoteIf you don't have the ability to carry out choices, then what good are they?
What I think you mean is "if you don't have the abillity to carry out options, then what good are they?" And the answer is, they aren't any good at all, and they shouldn't be considered in your choice, your decision.
QuoteIf your choices are based on false ideas, what good are they?
If your options are based upon false understanding, they are pretty crappy options, but you don't know that. You have to make choices based upon what you know, or your abilities, etc. There are no other options than that.
QuoteIf your brain is comatose, how do you make choices in the first place?
If you are in a coma and there is no mind going on in there, you can't act. Thus choice is a moot point. If you have a mind though, you can make a decision, even if that decision is indecision, and thus there is choice. I would say thats the majority of people on this forum.
I agree with teh Beemer, freedom is not an object, to be given and taken away, it's something everyone has, even if they have no idea how to use it.
I have the freedom to decide what I want to eat out of the fridge, I have the freedom to decide what occupation I am best suited to, I have the freedom to decide where I live and with whom, or I could decide to stay living with Mom until I get a Klingon costume and go with it. My choices, all. I am free to make all these decisions, and I will, because I can.
QuoteI don't think you understand. When I say choice I mean the choice they make, not the options they have. The two are not the same. Its not an inpingment upon freedom. It is however, very fucktardly.
I'm not saying choice and options are the same, I'm saying they're integral.
So for the record, denying people education is not an infringement on people's freedom?
QuoteQuoteMentally ill people can choose between killing the insects under their elbow skin or the arachnids under their nipples, but when we know these are hallucinations, we don't call this freedom.
Or they could choose to ignore the hallucinations, etc. Those are options. The options are not the freedom, the making of the decision is.
I'll tell my schizophrenic friend to stop taking his meds and just ignore his hallucinations. :roll:
What is choice without options?
QuoteI DID adress it. Choice when I say it means the decided action. Thus the decision leads into the action.
Well, I hope you can understand that most people regard choice as a decision that has no necessary connection with action.
When you wrote this:
QuoteThis liberty is inherent in every person, and it exists as choice. Not the ability to choose, but the choices made themselves.
It sure sounds like you're saying it's all about decisions.
QuoteIf your options are based upon false understanding, they are pretty crappy options, but you don't know that. You have to make choices based upon what you know, or your abilities, etc. There are no other options than that.
So you can't make choices based upon what other people know? What? That doesn't sound like freedom to me.
The main point that you don't seem to want to acknowledge is that other people can limit your ability to carry out your choices and decisions. They also can keep you ignorant of options that would change your mind if you knew about them. Disease also can prevent you from carrying out your decisions and choices. Without the ability to act on choices, choice is nothing.
There is such a thing as infringement on other's freedom. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
Quote from: Michal on March 27, 2007, 05:17:24 AM
I agree with teh Beemer, freedom is not an object, to be given and taken away, it's something everyone has, even if they have no idea how to use it.
Bullpoopoo.
Freedom is something you sieze. And you give the people you're siezing it from a fucking rupture.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 27, 2007, 07:42:06 AM
Freedom is something you sieze. And you give the people you're siezing it from a fucking rupture.
:mittens:
thats brilliant
should be on the one sentence meme list
Quote from: Netaungrot on March 27, 2007, 05:55:20 AM
QuoteI don't think you understand. When I say choice I mean the choice they make, not the options they have. The two are not the same. Its not an inpingment upon freedom. It is however, very fucktardly.
I'm not saying choice and options are the same, I'm saying they're integral.
So for the record, denying people education is not an infringement on people's freedom?
QuoteQuoteMentally ill people can choose between killing the insects under their elbow skin or the arachnids under their nipples, but when we know these are hallucinations, we don't call this freedom.
Or they could choose to ignore the hallucinations, etc. Those are options. The options are not the freedom, the making of the decision is.
I'll tell my schizophrenic friend to stop taking his meds and just ignore his hallucinations. :roll:
What is choice without options?
QuoteI DID adress it. Choice when I say it means the decided action. Thus the decision leads into the action.
Well, I hope you can understand that most people regard choice as a decision that has no necessary connection with action.
When you wrote this:
QuoteThis liberty is inherent in every person, and it exists as choice. Not the ability to choose, but the choices made themselves.
It sure sounds like you're saying it's all about decisions.
QuoteIf your options are based upon false understanding, they are pretty crappy options, but you don't know that. You have to make choices based upon what you know, or your abilities, etc. There are no other options than that.
So you can't make choices based upon what other people know? What? That doesn't sound like freedom to me.
The main point that you don't seem to want to acknowledge is that other people can limit your ability to carry out your choices and decisions. They also can keep you ignorant of options that would change your mind if you knew about them. Disease also can prevent you from carrying out your decisions and choices. Without the ability to act on choices, choice is nothing.
There is such a thing as infringement on other's freedom. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
*sigh*
I've tried to explain three times now.
Oh well. No helping an unsaved heathen.
Tony Snow's cancerous liver should be along to explain it to you shortly.
Thought you'd buckle.
But so soon.
For shame.
Quote from: Netaungrot on March 27, 2007, 07:36:09 PM
Thought you'd buckle.
But so soon.
For shame.
I got bored.
Nothin more to it than that.
Quote from: Netaungrot on March 27, 2007, 07:36:09 PM
Thought you'd buckle.
But so soon.
For shame.
How long can semantic assfuckery stay interesting?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 27, 2007, 07:46:34 PM
Quote from: Netaungrot on March 27, 2007, 07:36:09 PM
Thought you'd buckle.
But so soon.
For shame.
How long can semantic assfuckery stay interesting?
As long as otherwise intelligent chaps continue insisting on ridiculous definitions.
Choice = doing something.
:lulz:
Hey, Netaungrot. Why don't you go see what you can fit in your ass?
Just saying.....
Quote from: Random Probability on March 27, 2007, 11:32:45 PM
Hey, Netaungrot. Why don't you go see what you can fit in your ass?
Just saying.....
RP...geez....
BMW,
Doesn't HATE the guy.
Well, no more than any other person.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on March 28, 2007, 12:10:22 AM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 27, 2007, 11:32:45 PM
Hey, Netaungrot. Why don't you go see what you can fit in your ass?
Just saying.....
RP...geez....
BMW,
Doesn't HATE the guy.
Well, no more than any other person.
That wasn't hate. That was love! I was just asking him to entertain us.....
Jeez....
RP,
Basking in the warm glow of my own hate. Love = Hate, right? I get them confused all the time.
Quote from: Random Probability on March 28, 2007, 12:46:35 AM
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on March 28, 2007, 12:10:22 AM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 27, 2007, 11:32:45 PM
Hey, Netaungrot. Why don't you go see what you can fit in your ass?
Just saying.....
RP...geez....
BMW,
Doesn't HATE the guy.
Well, no more than any other person.
That wasn't hate. That was love! I was just asking him to entertain us.....
Jeez....
RP,
Basking in the warm glow of my own hate. Love = Hate, right? I get them confused all the time.
Heh.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 27, 2007, 07:42:06 AM
Quote from: Michal on March 27, 2007, 05:17:24 AM
I agree with teh Beemer, freedom is not an object, to be given and taken away, it's something everyone has, even if they have no idea how to use it.
Bullpoopoo.
Freedom is something you sieze. And you give the people you're siezing it from a fucking rupture.
Mm. I suppose that's exactly what I'm doing IRL, now that I think about it. I'm daydreaming about cussing out my mom who doesn't even let me use the word "poop" as an expletive.
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 06:57:15 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 27, 2007, 07:42:06 AM
Quote from: Michal on March 27, 2007, 05:17:24 AM
I agree with teh Beemer, freedom is not an object, to be given and taken away, it's something everyone has, even if they have no idea how to use it.
Bullpoopoo.
Freedom is something you sieze. And you give the people you're siezing it from a fucking rupture.
Mm. I suppose that's exactly what I'm doing IRL, now that I think about it. I'm daydreaming about cussing out my mom who doesn't even let me use the word "poop" as an expletive.
Try "poomp".
Try using "cunt" for a while then offer "shit" as an alternative.
I've tried "poomp", and she's decided that she'll dock my allowance if she hears me swearing, or hears any swearwords in my music.
*snarls, paces in cage*
I hope you're planning a big party when you finally get the fuck out of there.
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 07:57:16 PM
I've tried "poomp", and she's decided that she'll dock my allowance if she hears me swearing, or hears any swearwords in my music.
*snarls, paces in cage*
Use "encopresis".
It's technically a medical term.
I will celebrate with a "grand finale" that will have my town talking for months.
Also, I am fond of the term "achalasiac". Google it. 8)
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 08:06:14 PM
I will celebrate with a "grand finale" that will have my town talking for months.
Be careful. She's still going to be your mother for another 40 years or so.
She's 56.
Also, I fully intend to have as little to do with her as is possible, there have been injustices committed, to say the least.
I'm thinking of something involving lots of rainbow confetti, glue, and... well, the precise target has yet to be determined.:?
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 08:06:14 PM
Also, I am fond of the term "achalasiac". Google it. 8)
I did. And Okay this is the sexiest thing evar--
QuoteTreatment
The approach to treatment is to reduce the pressure at the lower esophageal sphincter. This may be achieved by manipulating the lower esophagus sphincter with special instruments.
Therapy usually involves widening of the lower sphincter or injection with botulinum toxin (Botox) to paralyze it and prevent spasms. Medications such as long-acting nitrates or calcium channel blockers can also be used to lower the pressure at the lower esophagus sphincter.
Professor Cramulus
Popping at least ten Boners
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 08:14:12 PM
She's 56.
Also, I fully intend to have as little to do with her as is possible, there have been injustices committed, to say the least.
I'm thinking of something involving lots of rainbow confetti, glue, and... well, the precise target has yet to be determined.:?
Why burn a bridge when you can blow it up, eh?
Something like that.
It's more that I've been itching to commit some massive asshattery for a very long time, and this provides a perfect opportunity. I hate this place, and most of the people in it, so asshattery there shall be.
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 08:28:30 PM
Something like that.
It's more that I've been itching to commit some massive asshattery for a very long time, and this provides a perfect opportunity. I hate this place, and most of the people in it, so asshattery there shall be.
Why wait? Stealth asshattery is more fun, anyway.
She probably has a curfew.
Quote from: LMNO on March 28, 2007, 08:35:04 PM
She probably has a curfew.
So what? The best asshattery is done in broad daylight.
Oh, I can stay out as late as I want, and go anywhere I want.
Provided I'm with people she sees as "credible".
Which precludes all of my friends that are into this sort of "fun".
I was gone for an afternoon once (she didn't find my note) and she rounded up a bunch of yahoos to act as a "search party" when all I'd done was go to the store and spent the afternoon with a friend drinking coffee and watching DVDs at her house. I got in trouble because she didn't see the note I'd stuck on the front door, which doesn't strike me as something I should be blamed for.
That, and a lot of things I will not detail publicly, involving actions meant to shame and demean me.
Quote from: Michal on March 28, 2007, 08:42:29 PM
Oh, I can stay out as late as I want, and go anywhere I want.
Provided I'm with people she sees as "credible".
Which precludes all of my friends that are into this sort of "fun".
Then your friends need to learn to blend in.
Every good asshat should be credible as hell on the outside, able to attend Baptist BBQs without raising any eyebrows, yet seething with hate and malice for all things "normal" on the inside.
I think I've found one who's trainable.
Quote from: Random Probability on March 27, 2007, 11:32:45 PM
Hey, Netaungrot. Why don't you go see what you can fit in your ass?
Just saying.....
Kill yourself, fuck the body.
Quote from: Netaungrot on April 01, 2007, 09:26:27 PM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 27, 2007, 11:32:45 PM
Hey, Netaungrot. Why don't you go see what you can fit in your ass?
Just saying.....
Kill yourself, fuck the body.
That is so last week...
How do you think I got to this state of existence?