Q: Is it possible to love somebody and still smack the shit out of them?
A: Yes.
Emotions can make us do unpredictable things. Love has little to do with other emotions, it seems to coexist seamlessly with any other emotion.
what you say is true
but
in some circumstances - im saying it may be a sign of love to deliver a beating to something/someone
(this understanding extends to the fact that things that love you can also deliver a swift ass-kicking if the situation is ripe)
I can't relate to it personally, being a father. However, I can recognize and understand how this can be the case for others. I've never been to the point where I wanted to use any sort of corporal punishment on my daughter. Sure, there have been several times where she's really pushed my buttons and got me agitated, but I guess my programming makes me just throw my hands up and walk away. But it's different for other people and I'm loathe to get into THAT can of worms of morals and ethics.
Personally, I think love leads to fear leads to ass-beating.
Example: Your child starts wandering away from your side and comes very close to stepping off the sidewalk into a busy street. Had that been me, my mother would have seized me immediately and swatted me on the hand or buttocks, and probably yelled also. This is because her love for me turned into stark terror at the idea of my getting hit by a car, so she wanted to condition me *against* stepping out into the street in the future. And she used pain infliction to set up that conditioning.
I have no insights on whether this is a useful thing, or an effective thing. But I am pretty sure on the "Love -> Fear -> Ass-beating" train of thought. Heck, didn't we have a thread once about Fear and Desire (Love) being looped together? Pretty easy to switch from one to the other.
Have you ever heard those folks that justify hitting their kids with a statement like "I was hit as a kid, and I turned out alright!"? I usually find these people are total arseholes with no insight. I was hit as a kid, and know I'm some kind of weirdo. Not that that explains cause-and-effect.
I have hit my kids (I have two) a couple of times, and it's been more about the arbitrary mood I was in at the times, rather than through any objective standard punishment for what they've done. I did notice, though, that it had my desired effect - they modified their behaviour to what I wanted.
Still, I stick to a belief in no corporal punishment. I (or we, to include my lover) believe that short-term modifications of behaviour are not worth potential long-term problems that I perceive can occur in personality, character and spirit because of hitting.
I don't look harshly on folk that smack their kids. I just think there's better ways.
it would to be a rare situation in which it would make sense to lay a ass-whooping on somebody/thing you love
but
rare situations do occur from time to time
So far I've managed to find creative ways to get my daughter to listen without resorting to that sort of thing. Most of the time targetting a toy she really loves seems to help. So instead of putting her in time out threatening to put her favorite toy train in time out seems to have a good effect. Of course there are times where a 3 year old is going to be a 3 year old, irrational. Then, you really need to get creative, and patient.
for the record - i dont have kids
and altho it annoys the shit out of me when somebody says that things 'mahdjgickqually' change when your seed gets planted and crawls out the womb - i will admit that i do not have that first-hand experience
i started this thread as a extension of the observation that sometimes people in general require a beating that would prevent them from entering a situation where they would get beat even worse
not necessarily a child or your child - but anybody in general
the only thing attached to this is the fact that there is tremendous responsibility placed on the person delivering the beating
ie - if a person delivers a beating incorrectly or for wrong reasons - they will catch it back
and prolly worse
but
if you have to temporarily decomission a person in order to prevent them from calamity
there dont seem to be a problem with that
(i could be wrong of course)
How much of a beating are we talking here?
i dunno man
discretion etc
Can't help thinking that there's better ways to physically restrain someone than kicking the shit out them.
Although prolly not as much fun it might leave less dents in your loved ones.
im sayin tho - if you had to do it then you have to do it
tho i still cant think of any situations where it would be necessary
of course culturally, there are people who would argue that it is mandatory for proper child rearing. For example Cambodian cultures and Sudanese cultures have a traditional element of corporal punishment in their child rearing. And I imagine they would say that it is out of love.
Might be out of hate too.
We have a strong tradition of domestic violence in this country, going back centuries.
Bottom line - there's every chance that some day your kid is gonna come at you wif a knife. At that point I'll most likely cripple the fucker.
Sweet sharp spinal trauma
quick factoid from a Psychology of Education class I took:
Kids who were spanked score significantly lower on the SATs than kids who were never spanked.
the practicality of SAT scores is debatable
toss those same kids in a steel cage match and the outcome might be different
school of hard knocks can be educational too.
Quote from: LHX on May 10, 2007, 05:51:58 PM
the practicality of SAT scores is debatable
toss those same kids in a steel cage match and the outcome might be different
But how should I raise my kid if I want him to win the Nobel prize AND wrestle bears? :p
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on May 10, 2007, 07:05:16 PM
Quote from: LHX on May 10, 2007, 05:51:58 PM
the practicality of SAT scores is debatable
toss those same kids in a steel cage match and the outcome might be different
But how should I raise my kid if I want him to win the Nobel prize AND wrestle bears? :p
You encourage him to develop into a physicist, which helps him win the prize and encourages him to host BSU parties.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on May 10, 2007, 05:33:14 PM
quick factoid from a Psychology of Education class I took:
Kids who were spanked score significantly lower on the SATs than kids who were never spanked.
Strange.
Physiognomy identifies fear of failure with the ass.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on May 10, 2007, 07:05:16 PM
Quote from: LHX on May 10, 2007, 05:51:58 PM
the practicality of SAT scores is debatable
toss those same kids in a steel cage match and the outcome might be different
But how should I raise my kid if I want him to win the Nobel prize AND wrestle bears? :p
Beat the shit out of them with encyclopaedia?
Also keep in mind that there is a difference between discipline and abuse.
I was disciplined, my mom smacked me if I got snippy to her. She didn't knock my teeth out, she taught me a lesson: smacks hurt, so don't drop F-bombs in front of mom when you're 13 years old.
My dad would pop me on the ass if I did something wrong. Did he beat me until I was black and blue? No. Did I learn a lesson? Yeah, because I don't think he had to do it more than a couple of times in my lifetime, and they were all when I was still in elementary school.
We were also pretty involved kids. I started taking Taekwondo when I was 10 along with my brother and sister. I also did intermural soccer and then in high school I swam competitively, played volleyball, and was in the drama club for a period of time. My sister ran track, etc., and my brother was so ADHD that either he was stupid on medication or could barely sit still in school, so the state of Rhode Island forced him to drop out of high school because they "don't employ professionals to work with such disruptive students" and insist that we send him to a mental institution. (Please to note it's a fad in RI to be locked in one of our fine mental institutions. I want to say that 75% of the state say that they are diagnosed bipolar I)
However, my brother found his niche in the kitchen and became a chef by ways of hard knocks and now makes some serious money in Florida. My parents weren't happy that he dropped out of high school, but he's no dummy and they know that as well.
ADHD =/= insane, disruptive, retarded, etc. Just to let you know.
I think that parents should do their best to encourage kids to stay off the streets by getting them in sports, clubs, and giving them an occasional needed smack, but don't fucking beat them or whip them.
And don't fucking ignore them either. Sometimes I think that's worse.
I hated being ignored. Nothing makes you feel less important than not being noticed. Attention is probably the most important thing to GIVE (fixed) as a parent.
Just guessing, I'm 20 and childless. :)
Quote from: Kaou Suu on May 11, 2007, 10:03:19 PM
My dad would pop me on the ass if I did something wrong. Did he beat me until I was black and blue? No. Did I learn a lesson? Yeah, because I don't think he had to do it more than a couple of times in my lifetime, and they were all when I was still in elementary school.
You might consider revising this line.
Quote from: Felix on May 12, 2007, 01:34:44 AM
I hated being ignored. Nothing makes you feel less important than not being noticed. Attention is probably the most important thing to GIVE (fixed) as a parent.
Just guessing, I'm 20 and childless. :)
You are driving the correct motorcycle with child safety seat. (yes I know there is no such thing)
This is largely why kids act out when they do. Not necessarily because they aren't getting enough attention, but because they aren't getting it when they want it.
But moreover, giving attention, meaningful attention, to a child can help reinforce self-worth, in my mind. Especially when you observe what the child reacts to. If you go outside to play catch with you child and she is constantly stopping to look at the bugs crawling on the grass, stop playing catch and explore with her. I think there are many parents who think doing ANYTHING with a child = giving a child attention. But if it isn't something the child enjoys or relates to, it's a waste. That's not to say you don't try to introduce new things like a sports activity, artistic expression, etc.
Anyway, that was a longwinder version of IAWTC
No, you make a point. Attention is different than mentally engaging someone.
I have two parents who parented WAY differently than I do. And similarly in several aspects as I am still a product of my ubringing.
My parents did NOT praise. Did NOT bring into focus strengths. Instead, they harped and griped, bitched and bullied on weaknesses. If I had to fault my parents on ANYthing when I was growing up, it's that they always thought the measure of my ego needed balancing out with their spoon-feeding of how imperfect and fucked-up I was (and my younger brothers as well).
So while I was well aware of my own particular gifts and strengths (they were stated as matter of fact not necessarily as things to hone and find skills in), I was continuously urged to modify my behavior to improve and lessen the negatives of being ME. Verbal shit-kicking, friends and foes, is just as painful in a LOT of ways as being ignored and having the crap beat out of you.
I was rather lucky that my parents CARED what I did...they just had no way of doing this caring productively. Religion and its practice took the place of actual ENGAGEMENT in my life. My parents just put me on remote control for the most part while I was in school. Which worked well for me since I was really too self-disciplined to ever fuck up anything real and basically just did what I was asked/supposed to for the most part.
The rub came with my brothers who almost flunked out of high school, each of them, and neither of them have a college degree to this day. So when Dad when to prison, each of them had been on the family dole in their own way, and now they are eating shit trying to make a living. For all my parents cared, they still didn't give my brothers very good survival skills or expect them to live beyond their parents' means to any fucking degree whatsofuckingever.
BE that as it may, I'm raising two boys in a VERY mixed cultural setting. Fucking Afghan meets America. But in a lot of ways, my husband and I AGREE on more than we disagree on when it comes to my boys. We don't HIT them, though we do grab them and hold them or squeeze 'em a bit tight to get their attention. I do yell rather a lot...but I think that's me in general. I am LOUD.
As for the attention my kids get, I give them A LOT of space...I like a lot of space myself. And I notice when I am with them, I want to micromanage them...so it's better when they play, they have their own games and play them. But I know their friends, I'm in their classrooms, very heavily involved in their school lives. My kids aren't ignored per se, but I'm not in their assholes, I just know what the fuck is going on.
It's a tenuous balance at best, and I doubt I'm much of an expert at all. If anything, my kids are AN EXTENTION OF WHO I AM. They are like my arm, my foot, my finger. I know them, they are not only of my body, but they are the closest thing to me there is without being ME myself. I sort of own them, but they are things that grow and progress beyond my own scope and control. It's cool, scary and wonderful all at the same time.
The love I have for them...it's like loving your own intestines or lungs. It's so a part of you, that you don't question the need or want of it. It's just THERE.
There's no other way to describe my children for me. I need them, I love them and I nourish them as best as I can. But they are still their own entities that cause wonder, entertainment, inspiration and consternation.
Not to ignore the inherent danger in the phrase, but..."greater good".
Quote from: LHX on May 10, 2007, 03:31:35 PM
im sayin tho - if you had to do it then you have to do it
tho i still cant think of any situations where it would be necessary
Pepper started wigging out hard at the tail end of a really heavy acid trip. He's 6'4 and weighed about 190 at the time, and he started trying to wrestle people to the ground and bite them. not a good scene. I was tripping balls too, but I still had some presence of mind left. People were threatening to call 911, and since I was the one who sold everyone the acid, I REALLY didn't want the cops involved, at least not while I was still there and still holding. One of the girls who lived at the house we were in tried to get Pepper to calm down, and he bit her thumb. He was trying to bite THROUGH her thumb, and she was screaming her fucking head off. Shit was about to reach the point from which no good things can concievably happen. I grabbed Pepper's head and began to pry his jaws open, freeing the foolish girl's thumb. Pepper never skipped a beat, he just decided to replace her thumb with mine. Reflex twitched at the last nanosecond and his front teeth delivered a painful glancing blow to my thumbnail as I yanked my digit out of harm's way. People in the background conferring in fearful whispers, sure to call the aforementioned authorities any time now. I stood straight up and grabbed Pepper's chin with my left hand. Turned his face toward mine and sized up direction and distance. Right Cross. Hard. Harder than I've ever hit anyone before or since. Broke one of his front teeth in half on my ring. He sways for a second, like a boxer in a bad hollywood slo-mo shot. Doesn't fall. Shakes his head and looks at me, eyes clearing.
"Dude..."
"Dude. Get your shit together and keep it there. You're about to get us busted."
"Sorry, dude. I hit my head when we had to climb down the rocks to get out of the way of that train and got stuck in some fucked up loop."
"You cool?"
"I'm cool. I'm over it."
"A'ight then."
****
About a year later, I came back from my first summer working in Maine to find my old partner living under a bench in the backyard of a church, shooting speed and working small-time hustles to feed his habit.
I beat the ever-loving shit out of him. Worked him over until he was too hurt to sleep outside. Told him I'd either take him to the hospital or his parents' house. Dropped him on the front step of their suburban mini-mansion, honked the horn, and took off.
Now he's taken over the family business, has a wife and a house in a nice neighborhood in the city. Alpha status restored.
That, to me, seems like an acceptable case of beating the shit out of a loved one. But it's gotta be a pretty exceptional situation, not just an attempt at behavior modification.
After reading through this thread, I think it's worth pointing out that every person and every child is different. What works for one, even if it's the most rational approach that works for far more than one, may completely backfire for a different kid. For example, when I read Felix's post saying how being ignored is horrible feeling, I couldn't help but disagree (in my case, that is.) For me, being passively ignored (that is, not because of anything I did that merits exclusion) is one of the nicest things people can do. Being entirely alone makes me feel like the people who aren't there are acknowledging that I'm able to handle myself. I also know that that's nothing like most kids, especially teenagers, like me, but it's always worth the time of any parent to not just assume that one method will work, no matter who their kid really is.
My daughter's only three months, so I've still got no actual field experience, but i only beleive in "hitting" in a small, situational sense. As punishment, no. As a way to imprint certain thigns into the child, perhaps.
If my daughter reaches for the oven, i'll move her away. If she just comes back, i may give her a small sharp slap on the hand as she almost touches it, so she relates touching the oven with pain. I'd only do this based on the logic that, should she touch it when i'm not there to stop her, it'll hurt alot more, and cause real damage.
The smack for running into the road i can understand. The smack for not tidying a room i cannot personally justify.
Quote from: LHX on May 08, 2007, 02:15:24 AM
Q: Is it possible to love somebody and still smack the shit out of them?
A: Yes.
Ignoring most, I will stick to this proposition.
Due to the title, I assume this is meant to concentrate on the question if loving your child can include hitting him or her.
Smack the shit out of them is firstly indicating that this is not simply hitting, but seriously hurting somebody.
Love is secondly an impossible word to use, because of the very personal dimension that love has. What the one calls love is for the other certainly no love at all. So the one can smack the shit out of a child and love that child, while the other can't. I think that loving somebody is no guarantee to treat somebody well.
So: YES, but not because it is good.
From an ethical point of view, I would say that beating the living shit out of somebody is in no way positive for that person.