I have not commented much on the BIP because I determined to read it from Cover to Cover (which involved a lot of paging about since its in flyer format). However, now that I've finished it (and reread it) I had a couple observations.
First, I suppose I would need to understand the spirit in which it was written, particularly the goals of its writers. Based on other comments hereabout, I was under the assumption that perhaps the BIP was seen as a way of pushing forward some of the popular philosophies held by many Discordians. However, what I read was more of a political/social rant which doesn't look much different from many blogs these days. Should I be looking at BIP as rants, or as propaganda? (Is the audience existing Discordians/Anarchists or Pinks/Cabbages/Thuddites that you wish to thwack open?)
Second, the format feels very ordered. While I don't think that there's a need to do cut-up method for all Discordian works, the overall feel was of a single linear series of rants, preached at an individual, rather than a discourse of philosophy, discussion of models/ideas or anything like that.
Third, there may be some value in examining the perspective... there appear lots of "I think", "I know", "You are" sort of statements, which make the overall feel of the document preachy. Maybe that will work... in my experience though it tends to fall flat.
Observation: In the 1960's when Omar and Mal were working on the PD, the written word was the best form of communication (for the sort of communication they were forming). They used guerrilla publishing and distribution to push their ideas out. In such, they utilized Burroughs's Cut Up method to make their writing very different than the normal writing (for comparison, check out some of the pamphlets being pushed by Chomsky and others during that time). This, I think, was very important. In several of Bob's books and the PD (and a lot of other stuff written by the early proto-discordians), the writing style intentionally breaks from the 'normal' writing style. This makes the read more 'discordant', it makes the read more memorable (I will never forget the telegram to Jehova) and (most important in my opinion), the cut up method plays tricks in the synapses. When the brain doesn't get what it expects, it gets surprised. Surprise information tends to stick in the brain more effectively than expected information. Further, assuming that Leary's theories were, in any way, shocks can also induce meta-programming opportunities. This seems to have been the goal of Mal, Omar and the gang and I've found that it does seem to work (in some sense) in many cases.
However, when reading BIP, it felt just like a Noam Chomsky, Libertarian or similar pamphlet. It had good information, but there was no style, no panache, no finesse.... Good points for the content, but low marks on presentation and use of today's secret ingredient. Remember, any written work can tell someone where to go, but a good one can tell someone where to go and make them look forward to it.
The very first time I read the PD, I had moments of shocking awareness. This wasn't due to the Illumination within the PD, but rather the PD's interaction with my brain... it didn't teach me something new, it just flashed something I should have realized in front of my face and then went on its merry way. Moments later, my brain caught up and said "OH!". The PD is manipulative in its writing, not willing to just lay out the data, but it hides the data in chocolate so you'll eat it before you know what's good for you.
We no longer live in the era of the printed page. We live in a time when data is interactively processed by individuals, nearly simultaneously, complete with multimedia support and LULZ. Maybe a modern revisitation to the PD would be better processed in a new and different format (Maybe weekly YouTube posts or something of that nature). If you want to stick to written work, then I think you may want to find a format that appeals to the modern reader which I'm not sure you've done yet.
I'm sure I'll have more thoughts, but I felt that getting the overall intention would probably be the best first step... so is BIP intended to be more:
Pontificating, Teaching, Subverting or just good ol' Whacking Off?
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Hey Rat, I am behind in my work, so I don't have time enough to give what you've written a thorough reading. I will do that tonight at home.
So far, I feel like you are very spot-on with a lot of things that I feel similarly about. Like I said, I will respond and try to actually engage in this when I get home.
Prof Cram wrote a really good "book report" on the BIP. I recommend doing a little thread archaeology for it, unless he happens to show up and provide a link, or if I do it when I get home. I think, based on the bit of what you've written so far, you shared some similar thoughts.
That said, it's really awesome of you to provide feedback. It's something I haven't yet taken the time/balls to do, but it's always good for anything to get feedback to keep giving it momentum. So awesome.
GREAT critique, Ratatosk.
Yea, my book report is here:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11440.0 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11440.0)
that was my 50th post. =) A lot of new posters have made basically the same comments - some good stuff in there, but it lacks the proper packaging to be effective.
We had a several week long discussion about whether or not 'Black Iron Prison' is the correct metaphor. Eventually we got tired of talking about it. The same thing is happening with the "age of aftermath" magazine project - there's a lot of good thought, but we seem to lack the leadership and momentum to push it into what we want it to be.
The BIP pamphlet was written before I was here, but I get the impression that it was basically a collection of rants and sermons written around the same time period. That's why there's no unified direction. At the time there was a lot of energy towards writing another edition of the Principia, but the motion swung towards exploring the black iron prison metaphor. A lot of the "core discordian" stuff fell out of the project's scope (anyone who was around at the time - please clarify / correct me).
I'm still in favor of working towards a BIP 2.0 pamphlet - one in which we take what's good about this one and whittle it into something akin to the PD. I also feel it could use some cutup art and humor.
I encourage you to get an account on the blackironprison.com wiki (a number of people here can hook you up with one) and propose some changes to the articles you think could use some work. The most effective way to see progress seems to be to throw a snowball and hope it turns into an avalanche.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 18, 2007, 09:12:00 PM
I have not commented much on the BIP because I determined to read it from Cover to Cover (which involved a lot of paging about since its in flyer format). However, now that I've finished it (and reread it) I had a couple observations.
First, I suppose I would need to understand the spirit in which it was written, particularly the goals of its writers. Based on other comments hereabout, I was under the assumption that perhaps the BIP was seen as a way of pushing forward some of the popular philosophies held by many Discordians. However, what I read was more of a political/social rant which doesn't look much different from many blogs these days. Should I be looking at BIP as rants, or as propaganda? (Is the audience existing Discordians/Anarchists or Pinks/Cabbages/Thuddites that you wish to thwack open?)
So before I begin, I should preface this by saying that I am not part of the BIP project. I joined on here after being shown the BIP project by Prof Cram, but I haven't actually taken part in it myself, so this is all just expressions of my opinion, as opposed to anything with any sort of "authority" on the BIP.
That said--I feel like it's a combination of rants and propaganda. The idea, the feeling that I got from it, was the notion of grabbing someone by the shoulders and shaking them aggressively until they got it.
Quote
Second, the format feels very ordered. While I don't think that there's a need to do cut-up method for all Discordian works, the overall feel was of a single linear series of rants, preached at an individual, rather than a discourse of philosophy, discussion of models/ideas or anything like that.
I think you make a really, really good point here. Part of the fun of the original PD is how bizarre and all over the place it is, and fun makes people more receptive. It is fairly linear. I don't think this is necessarily bad, but I feel like the rants don't necessarily... join as well as they could. Does that make sense? The linear would work, except I feel like this is more walking from room to room on a hallway. We have to keep moving back out into the hallway before we can step into the next room, rather than having a fluid progression. This sensation of disjointedness, while still in a linear array, makes it harder to really "get into" or "sink into" the experience of reading the BIP, I think. It doesn't feel like a polished, finished product (which, when you have a polished, finished product, you won't feel anything--you'll just be paying attention to the content or what have you). This is partially I'm sure because it ISN'T a polished, finished product. But nonetheless, yes, the format could use some work.
Quote
Third, there may be some value in examining the perspective... there appear lots of "I think", "I know", "You are" sort of statements, which make the overall feel of the document preachy. Maybe that will work... in my experience though it tends to fall flat.
YES YES YES.
AND YES.
At the risk of offending some people here who have written some really excellent stuff for the BIP, the two things that really turned me off were the air of smug superiority of the authors and the feeling like, well, I could've been talking to some Hot Topic kids at times. A lot of the BIP material is really good, once you step past the preaching tones. There's also some, though, that feels very formulaic, and that made it harder for me to accept the preachy stuff when I got to it.
There's a lot of really good material in the BIP project right now. But a lot of it is a very aggressive, combative tone. If that's okay with the target audience then SUPER. Mission beginning to be accomplished. But I feel like the people that we're going after, the cabbages as it were, are not going to be receptive to that kind of antagonistic approach. Smug superiority and preachy tones will only turn them off.
Quote
Observation: In the 1960's when Omar and Mal were working on the PD, the written word was the best form of communication (for the sort of communication they were forming). They used guerrilla publishing and distribution to push their ideas out. In such, they utilized Burroughs's Cut Up method to make their writing very different than the normal writing (for comparison, check out some of the pamphlets being pushed by Chomsky and others during that time). This, I think, was very important. In several of Bob's books and the PD (and a lot of other stuff written by the early proto-discordians), the writing style intentionally breaks from the 'normal' writing style. This makes the read more 'discordant', it makes the read more memorable (I will never forget the telegram to Jehova) and (most important in my opinion), the cut up method plays tricks in the synapses. When the brain doesn't get what it expects, it gets surprised. Surprise information tends to stick in the brain more effectively than expected information. Further, assuming that Leary's theories were, in any way, shocks can also induce meta-programming opportunities. This seems to have been the goal of Mal, Omar and the gang and I've found that it does seem to work (in some sense) in many cases.
However, when reading BIP, it felt just like a Noam Chomsky, Libertarian or similar pamphlet. It had good information, but there was no style, no panache, no finesse.... Good points for the content, but low marks on presentation and use of today's secret ingredient. Remember, any written work can tell someone where to go, but a good one can tell someone where to go and make them look forward to it.
The very first time I read the PD, I had moments of shocking awareness. This wasn't due to the Illumination within the PD, but rather the PD's interaction with my brain... it didn't teach me something new, it just flashed something I should have realized in front of my face and then went on its merry way. Moments later, my brain caught up and said "OH!". The PD is manipulative in its writing, not willing to just lay out the data, but it hides the data in chocolate so you'll eat it before you know what's good for you.
These paragraphs are so chock full of good!
I am a graduate of an undergrad literature program and I'm researching literature graduate programs. So I am biased when I say that written word and text will never be outdated, dammit! If nothing else, I think it's only gotten better--there's something SPECIAL about holding a hardcopy of something in my hands. I get that feeling that this is something that is beyond just an internet meme--this is something solid, tangible,
lasting. I will be the first to admit, however, that it is highly likely that I'm the only one who feels that way. :| I think there's a lot of potential for a hardcopy of the BIP, though. I was looking at some of the one-sentence meme bombs, and the 5160-label sets, and thinking how much potential those represent for mixing in with BIP material. There's so many ways to update this stuff.
You mention the telegram--well, what have we got now? Print-out an inter-office memo, or a "while you were out" slip or even just an email. There's a lot of room for updating without copying, but maintaining the fun spirit of the original PD. I think there's nothing wrong with the idea appearing very clearly as an offspring of the PD, in fact, I think that might even be a positive. As a lit nerd, I'd hate to see us step away from hardcopy, because I feel that there really is a lot of potential there.
Quote
We no longer live in the era of the printed page. We live in a time when data is interactively processed by individuals, nearly simultaneously, complete with multimedia support and LULZ. Maybe a modern revisitation to the PD would be better processed in a new and different format (Maybe weekly YouTube posts or something of that nature). If you want to stick to written work, then I think you may want to find a format that appeals to the modern reader which I'm not sure you've done yet.
I've given my spooge for literature up above. I'll let that lie.
That said, I think the idea of YouTube posts is GREAT. Although I fully endorse the idea of maintaining a hardcopy presence, I think expanding and diversifying the way things are done is brilliant. Just look at Cram's 5160 stickers, the pamphlets people hand out, etc. We're already moving that way. It's just a matter of getting something a little more assembled, if you will.
I think the magazine project is a really great idea. I desperately need to go plug in my poor laputater because the battery is dying (old old lappy is sadface) and then I think I'm going to revisit that thread. I think everything you've had to say is really great, and it's really good to be continually revisiting and reassessing things, particularly like the BIP project. So applause for a fantastic post, and thanks for the food for thought!
I agree with the above.
Let me be honest: The BIP metaphor was flashed on, people started writing, I tossed some of the better rants into Word, Syn came up with the cover, and it ended up in PDF.
Whole thing took about a week. And it shows.
Basically, I was sick of the "we shoulds" and I just went ahead and did it during my lunch break.
That is to say: There was no effort to edit, streamline, chop up, or even approach a decent layout. I figured my half-assed attempt would prod other people into going further with it. No one did.
I'll totally go along with doing a revised second edition, to include more from the wiki, to add graphics, meme bombs, even jokes.
But someone has to be willing to take control and just do the fucking thing. We have a list of Kopyleft authors. They won't mind if you use their stuff.
Also, as far as the YouTube thing goes, I've been saying for months that if anyobe with video graphic knowledge wants to make something to attach to any of the POEEcasts that I've done, DO IT.
Quote from: LMNO on June 20, 2007, 01:17:01 PM
But someone has to be willing to take control and just do the fucking thing. We have a list of Kopyleft authors. They won't mind if you use their stuff.
I was trying to lay low because if too many people get involved it will stagnate and die in discussion.
But I am working on exactly that.
This is all I am releasing in the way of information for the time being. The rest is as classified as HIMEOBS. :p
I personally think that the fact that the BIP ever got as put together as it did is an indication of what an awesome group of people are milling around this board. There are only one or two other groups that I've seen (while admittedly I have not seen much) who can put together something like that, and they had MUCH more solid and defined "leadership" and "administration" and the suchlike. PD has none of that, yet something as cohesive as the BIP was assembled. However, despite all this awesome, I am A) very picky and demanding and B) a former editor, and once you get that in your blood, it doesn't go away easily! So I nitpick. But I think it's beyond awesome that there's something there for me to nitpick in the first place.
I have no skills in the YouTube department or I'd hop on that bandwagon. Prof Cram keeps saying he's going to buy a videocam, but then he had some unexpected expenses, so that's on hold last I heard. We had one or two amusing video ideas should that ever come to pass, though, so hopefully we'll be providing some roflcopters for all you fine PD.com folk soon. :D
I don't have much more to add. Other than to say I think at the point in time this was put together a lot of us were "in a mood" at the time. It was a time when everyone was bringing the rantage and it wasn't just TGRR carrying the water. I think that is another factor in how all of the writings seem to be circling the wagons around the same ideas.
We already have more then enough material floating around for another pamphlet. It's just a matter of recalling it, putting it into a format, and then PDFying it. But like L says, someone's just got to do it.
Feel free to pick as many nits as you see fit, D Cup.
If you want a second opinion, I can PM you my contact info.
Also, I am taking some time off the first week of July, and I have some past editing experience as well. I'd be glad to pitch in and help out.
Also, this is what my "cool shit from back in the day" thread was about; trying to tighten up meandering threads. It could use even more editing. I'll bump it.
Thank you :D
What I'm currently working on is some archaeology. Since I've only been posting here for about a month and lurking for about a month longer, I have a very limited scope of what I can think of to dig up for this. I think I've got some really good ideas for how I'm going to put it together and things that I'm making up to put into it. I've plucked out some of my favorite stuff from when I've been here, along with a few things from the BIP pamphlet, but I could definitely use more range in what's been written. As I said, there's lots of really good stuff going on here, and I've barely gotten my toes wet in the grand pool (or sewer :p) of PD.com.
Oh, and the Machine,Ñ¢ pamphlet was done the same way, so that could probably be tightened up, too.
Well, if you are thinking about assembling a pamphlet or some other type of publication, and are looking for material, a way to go might be to ask they kopyleft authors to either bump or forward to you links to things they've written that they think are publishing worthy. It would save you some time and effort from thread diving.
Thanks for the feedback! I think I was incorrectly expecting something finished, rather than a draft.
In that case, maybe we could create several 4-6 page pamphlets and circulate those over a period of time (one pamphlet a month/week/biweekly?
). Then we take from the best of those with new material and existing Kopyleft material and have that be BIP 2.0 or whatever...
Thoughts?
Also, has anyone seen the "Float, Don't Float" pamphlets or was that only some local scoundrel?
Rat, it has become obvious that if you want anything to happen, to do it yourself, with little expectation of help from others.
Also, a list of Kopyleft Authors:
Cain
SillyCubin
Littlest Ubermench
DJ Rubberducky
LHX
Vexati0n
LMNO
RWHN
Mangrove
Hunter S Durden
Cram
Mourning Star
Kaou Suu
000
The Other Anonymous
That One Guy
Hawk
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 20, 2007, 03:18:57 PM
Thanks for the feedback! I think I was incorrectly expecting something finished, rather than a draft.
In that case, maybe we could create several 4-6 page pamphlets and circulate those over a period of time (one pamphlet a month/week/biweekly?
). Then we take from the best of those with new material and existing Kopyleft material and have that be BIP 2.0 or whatever...
Thoughts?
Also, has anyone seen the "Float, Don't Float" pamphlets or was that only some local scoundrel?
No, what are the Float Don't Float pamphlets?
I like the idea of smaller, regularly published pamphlets.
I think they'd be easier to populate if we didn't focus them on trying to make a point or enlighten people - like we could dump some of the funny threads into them.
the PD used rubber stamps and random art to create that crazy cutup vibe
the internet definitely has its share of analogues.
Float, Don't Float pamphlets appears in Columbus about 3 years ago in random "Free Newspaper" boxes downtown and on the OSU campus.
Basically the front of the pamphlet said "Float" and then under that it said "Don't Float"
The first page had the word "Float" at the top and pictures of various objects that apparently float.
The second page had the words "Don't Float" at the top and pictures of various objects that apparently do not float.
The items in the series got more and more bizarre with each issue and then they just stopped after about 4 months.
<i>Rat, it has become obvious that if you want anything to happen, to do it yourself, with little expectation of help from others.</i>
Yeah, I agree... thats why I thought that short pamphlets might be the best way to start, any ONE person who wants to can develop a small couple pages of material, post it here (or at bip or wherever) and then people that wish to can distribute it. After we have a collection of pamphlets we can use it as the source material for a larger production. I've already started my first one ;-)
I like that Float don't Float gag.
I'm currently on a "Notice of Compulsory Illumination" trip, myself.
Float/doesn't float is getting thrown into my hopper. I have a great text file going at work, some word documents at home, plus a whole file of images and LOADS of post-it notes over my computer.
I am incredibly excited about this.
I feel like my brain has already begun to stagnate in my month and a half out of college (I've been reading grad school bulletins not unlike a fiending drug addict) and this project is giving me something positive and mentally stimulating to work on. I am nerding out with delight over here. :D
I've found that since I started posting here, my intellectuial/creative spirits have been much improved.
Ditto. Especially back in the Retail Hell days. It even got me recording music again, albeit somewhat sporadically, but it's better than zilch.
Discordianism exists in the acts, not the words ;-)
See Also: http://www.mybrochuremaker.com/brochure-template-trifold-fun.html
Hrmmmmm.......
Some very interesting, quality critique there. I came in to the BIP project around the beginning of this year, so it had some time to percolate and get (slightly) edited and grouped. I made my own contribution (which got tossed up on the Wiki page) and I'm very interested in expanding that particular metaphor as are many of us around these parts.
As far as the pamphlets idea goes, it might be possible to combine all the various semi-related ideas that have bubbled up in the last few months (the Aftermath Magazine, BIP 2.0, the pamphlets) into one, more inclusive format. One pamphlet a month (we've already got the Aftermath name for it - might as well carry that over) that can be both posted/printed and put up on the WorldPress blog site already in place, and every 6 months (or a year or whenever) we can combine things into a more organized format as a slightly slicker compilation.
I never looked at the BIP stuff as a static work - if it was, why have a forum dedicated to expanding/discussing/working on/contributing to it after all. Hell, even the PD gets stuff tacked on to it (sometimes in a bad-touch way *coughSJGamescough*) with new editions. This IS all about change and chaos after all :mrgreen:
Quote from: LMNO on June 20, 2007, 04:41:31 PM
I've found that since I started posting here, my intellectuial/creative spirits have been much improved.
I've definitely found that my writing and my philosophical musings have gotten the proverbial kick in the ass from all of this, and that is definitely a good thing. However, I've always been creative, and my music is where I most fully express all of this stuff. Words are nice and all, but to me music is how I most effectively communicate this - the interplay of chaos (improvising a bass line on the fly or just adding fills where I feel them) and order (the more rigid aspects of song form) over time is what I strive to portray in my playing. Too much chaos and you get Free Jazz. Too much order and you get the 3-minute pop single. Balancing the two is - to me at least - what makes it all so much fun. That's what I took to heart in the PD, and that's what I've most readily grasped in regards to the BIP stuff.
Because of this place, I've gotten much better at writing down the concepts I have trouble articulating outside of music. Hopefully I'll keep improving, and maybe we can even get things moving with the next phase of the BIP/Aftermath ideas to spread it to whoever might get something out of it in the rest of the web and the world at large.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 20, 2007, 04:53:58 PM
Discordianism exists in the acts, not the words ;-)
See Also: http://www.mybrochuremaker.com/brochure-template-trifold-fun.html
Hrmmmmm.......
That brochure maker is an amazing army of lollerskates. I see infinite potential in their pre-designed templates with the pictures of smiling people and the suchlike :evil:
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 20, 2007, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 20, 2007, 04:53:58 PM
Discordianism exists in the acts, not the words ;-)
See Also: http://www.mybrochuremaker.com/brochure-template-trifold-fun.html
Hrmmmmm.......
That brochure maker is an amazing army of lollerskates. I see infinite potential in their pre-designed templates with the pictures of smiling people and the suchlike :evil:
Ah yes... and they let you upload your own pics as well.... which for my first shot may involve downloading their pics and editing them just slightly ;-)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 20, 2007, 05:14:30 PM
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 20, 2007, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 20, 2007, 04:53:58 PM
Discordianism exists in the acts, not the words ;-)
See Also: http://www.mybrochuremaker.com/brochure-template-trifold-fun.html
Hrmmmmm.......
That brochure maker is an amazing army of lollerskates. I see infinite potential in their pre-designed templates with the pictures of smiling people and the suchlike :evil:
Ah yes... and they let you upload your own pics as well.... which for my first shot may involve downloading their pics and editing them just slightly ;-)
(http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/cs-salute.jpg)
I salute this plan!
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm trying to spread, think about and improve ideas for subversion. Everything else is just a bonus.
i had written this reply just before the board crashed, so it's a bit of a latecomer, but i feel i still have some things to say that haven't been said: (and below it is a new reply to what came after that)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 18, 2007, 09:12:00 PM
Observation: In the 1960's when Omar and Mal were working on the PD, the written word was the best form of communication (for the sort of communication they were forming). They used guerrilla publishing and distribution to push their ideas out. In such, they utilized Burroughs's Cut Up method to make their writing very different than the normal writing (for comparison, check out some of the pamphlets being pushed by Chomsky and others during that time). This, I think, was very important. In several of Bob's books and the PD (and a lot of other stuff written by the early proto-discordians), the writing style intentionally breaks from the 'normal' writing style. This makes the read more 'discordant', it makes the read more memorable (I will never forget the telegram to Jehova) and (most important in my opinion), the cut up method plays tricks in the synapses. When the brain doesn't get what it expects, it gets surprised. Surprise information tends to stick in the brain more effectively than expected information. Further, assuming that Leary's theories were, in any way, shocks can also induce meta-programming opportunities. This seems to have been the goal of Mal, Omar and the gang and I've found that it does seem to work (in some sense) in many cases.
holy fuk
that's a way of looking at the PD i hadn't considered yet.
it does make me feel we might have kinda missed the target with the BIP pamphlet in that perspective :)
(btw i don't want to dismiss the original BIP pamphlet here, it has its own definite value in its own right)
ok considering this, we are facing some interesting challenges:
- there's hundreds of different forms of communication out there and indeed, print form might not be the most effective one anymore.
- we have the talent among us to make some interesting new use out of these communication channels, something that hits people from an unexpected angle, and shake them up.
- on the downside, new memes are being created every day over the entire internet, and interest stuff is short-lived
- on the upside, somebody discovering a year-old meme for the first time, often still enjoys it
- uh
interesting and different ways of communication this board has produced so far:
- Silly's upsidedown faces
- Cram's newspaper articles
- the Wrath of MSPaint Cabal's work
- TROLLING other messageboards
- LMNO/Earfatigue voice rants and POEEcasts (though IMO those could be *immensely* improved if Silly were to slap *any* sort of video or whatever behind those and publish on Youtube, for great instant exposure)
- some HIMEOBS tech (RSVP)
- ..
one thing, i think augmenting the LMNO/POEEcasts with a simple sort of video (talking head with appropriate background, whatever) and putting it up on youtube, would increase their audience a LOT. for starters, the sound quality is already a lot better than the average thing you find on youtube, so having a simplistic video going along with it is probably easiest. people want something moving to look at while listening to talking, otherwise their attention is gone like that. anything that moves. srsly.
--- - - -- - - -- ----->8---- cut here ----8<------- - - - - - - - - - - -
to DC and other editor-peoples: i've got some editing skills as well, at least i've got some good experience with Adobe Indesign 2.0 and have layouted and "designed" a simple paper magazine for my old students association a few times. what i can offer is: if you guys will also be using Indesign, we can probably send the .indd document over a few times, and i can help out with the shifting and putting-things-into-place and adjusting until the page looks right and inserting more functional whitespace kind of stuff.
(the thing is, i am kind of lazy and very bad at "just getting around and do it", so i need to organize close collaboration with others for myself in order to get things done)
Quote from: triple zero on June 21, 2007, 11:26:03 AM
one thing, i think augmenting the LMNO/POEEcasts with a simple sort of video (talking head with appropriate background, whatever) and putting it up on youtube, would increase their audience a LOT. for starters, the sound quality is already a lot better than the average thing you find on youtube, so having a simplistic video going along with it is probably easiest. people want something moving to look at while listening to talking, otherwise their attention is gone like that. anything that moves. srsly.
Shit, I've been trying to get someone to attach images to those rants ever since I started them. I agree 100000000% with this.
Don't
make me open iMovie.
I'm up for doing it but I need a hook. So far I've listened to a few of the audio clips and drawn a blank.
I think my video skills may be like the old songwriting dilema - which comes first the music or the lyrics. Usually I seem to come up with the visual first and then teh words come after and I'm getting a mental block trying to think of something that would work with the poeecasts, possibly for this reason.
If anyone else does, however, then let me know and I'll jump right on it.
I'd be happy with random images, unrelated to the words, as long as they grabbed attention.
Tits, for example. Probably clothed tits, so as not to get banned, but still, just a cool visual that will make people stare at the screen first, and then listen to the words.
I actually have an upcoming rant written by someone other than me (actually, its a transcript of Codename V's broadcast from V for Vendetta) where images will work well. I was going to intersperse them in the rant, but it will work equally well in video form.
Quote from: LMNO on June 21, 2007, 02:21:40 PM
I'd be happy with random images, unrelated to the words, as long as they grabbed attention.
Tits, for example. Probably clothed tits, so as not to get banned, but still, just a cool visual that will make people stare at the screen first, and then listen to the words.
So simple and yet so perfect!
How could I have been so blind as to not see this?
Wait'll I get home tonight - there'll be more tits than you can shake a nipple clamp at :evil:
000 -- nice thought on using InDesign. We've just started tooling around with it in my office, using the free trial, so I should definitely get that onto my home computer. It's only a 30 day trial, but I can definitely put this together in 30 days or less. And it gives exactly the kind of flexibility I was looking for that I can't get elsewhere. Thank you so much for making me think of that, I was ready to pull my hair out trying to format this stuff! :eek:
And now you see why eventually, I just stuck it into MS Word.
I was using MS Word and it was what was driving me crazy. :lol:
I miss having access to University printers were I could print a jillion pages on the cheap, plus photocopies. What I really wanted to do with this was print things up, cut 'em up, paste 'em down, photocopy, rinse repeat.
OFUK I HAVE REVEALED TOO MUCH :tinfoilhat:
That's why you need to work in a corporation with massive xerox machines..
Um... no, you don't.
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2007, 11:06:58 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm trying to spread, think about and improve ideas for subversion. Everything else is just a bonus.
Are you seeking Mass Subversion, or subversion of the individual?
Personally, I'm not at all confident that mass subversion is doable and I try to focus my attacks on subverting individuals (When Man is Free, then Mankind will be Free ;-) ).
Oh, mass subversion is doable, its just tricky.
Most of the thinking behind it has to be reverse-engineered, then control tested. Thats the problem. All the money and research is going in the opposite direction.
But challenges are always fun.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 21, 2007, 04:06:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2007, 11:06:58 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm trying to spread, think about and improve ideas for subversion. Everything else is just a bonus.
Are you seeking Mass Subversion, or subversion of the individual?
Personally, I'm not at all confident that mass subversion is doable and I try to focus my attacks on subverting individuals (When Man is Free, then Mankind will be Free ;-) ).
Little of column A, little of column B... I like to think of my life as the delicious leftovers stew of silly mind things. :D
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 21, 2007, 04:06:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2007, 11:06:58 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm trying to spread, think about and improve ideas for subversion. Everything else is just a bonus.
Are you seeking Mass Subversion, or subversion of the individual?
Personally, I'm not at all confident that mass subversion is doable and I try to focus my attacks on subverting individuals (When Man is Free, then Mankind will be Free ;-) ).
I'm with you there. Crowds are big angry dangerous things when poked and, even if you do manage to pull it off, all you end up with is the same army of zombies, bent to your will.
Operation mindfuck is best accomplished one head at a time.
Dear Santa --
I have been a moderately good girl. For Christmas this year, I would like a pony, a fire truck, and an army of zombies bent to my will.
KTHX KISSES
-DC
Quote from: LMNO on June 21, 2007, 02:21:40 PM
I'd be happy with random images, unrelated to the words, as long as they grabbed attention.
Tits, for example. Probably clothed tits, so as not to get banned, but still, just a cool visual that will make people stare at the screen first, and then listen to the words.
I was thinking about this on the way home from work last night. (Probably because my wife was riding with me.) And then something popped into my head: "Meme-Boobs".
20-pager, in color, featuring scantly-clad or non-clad breasts with the meme-bombs overlayed. Done tastily of course, in an arty sort of way (whatever that means.)
Of course we'd need money and female volunteers for such a thing.
If we had thought of this 5 years ago, this would have been no problem.
Wait, I wasn't around 5 years ago.
Maybe we can get Pope Tom to use some of his influence on his harem of nubiles.
I suppose to be PC we'd have to throw in some guys as well.
Memes emblazoned on rock-hard abs?
That works for me.
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 02:31:39 PM
Memes emblazoned on rock-hard abs?
That works for me.
There are dudes on this board with rock-hard abs?
-DC
180% okay with that 8)
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 22, 2007, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 02:31:39 PM
Memes emblazoned on rock-hard abs?
That works for me.
There are dudes on this board with rock-hard abs?
-DC
180% okay with that 8)
I'm working on it. 3-4 days a week. I'm a lot less mushy then I was when I started out on this place two years back.
Please note I didn't say anyone here has rock-hard abs.
However, I know some guys who actually know what the inside of a gym looks like.
Haven't been near a gym in over a year but sea kayaking keeps the six pack rippling 8)
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 22, 2007, 02:47:51 PM
Haven't been near a gym in over a year but sea kayaking keeps the six pack rippling 8)
doesn't it get hard to steer after the 6-pack?
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 22, 2007, 02:47:51 PM
Haven't been near a gym in over a year but sea kayaking keeps the six pack rippling 8)
In that case, I nominate Silly as the first one to take photos of his abs with a meme bomb written on it.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 22, 2007, 02:50:28 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 22, 2007, 02:47:51 PM
Haven't been near a gym in over a year but sea kayaking keeps the six pack rippling 8)
doesn't it get hard to steer after the 6-pack?
It takes more than just a sixer to take out a seasoned Scot like Silly.
LMNO, the only reason I inquire about the state of abs of men on this board is that I wonder where else we will get abs to put meme-bombs on? (same question already brought up about where to get meme-boobs.) Suu has already established that her husband is teh sex, but she's also established that she is teh territorial, so that's a dead end. :sad:
Now I'm all worked up over sexy subversion and I'm starting to get afraid I'll never see any of it! Nooooooooo!
Pope Tom still has some connections to the club kids, we can ask him. I used to know a lot of people who were expressing their individuality via exhibitionism, but they grew out of it.
We just need to find some kopy-left boobs and abs.
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Pope Tom still has some connections to the club kids, we can ask him. I used to know a lot of people who were expressing their individuality via exhibitionism, but they grew out of it.
What/who are "the club kids?"
-DC
Expressed her way through her grocery bill in college via exhibitionism. Likewise grew out of it.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on June 22, 2007, 03:01:07 PM
We just need to find some kopy-left boobs and abs.
It would look better if it was real and not shopped.
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 22, 2007, 03:02:06 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Pope Tom still has some connections to the club kids, we can ask him. I used to know a lot of people who were expressing their individuality via exhibitionism, but they grew out of it.
What/who are "the club kids?"
-DC
Expressed her way through her grocery bill in college via exhibitionism. Likewise grew out of it.
Tom & I are both in Boston, and have spent waaay too much time in the Goth/Fetish/Industrial scene.
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 03:09:36 PM
Tom & I are both in Boston, and have spent waaay too much time in the Goth/Fetish/Industrial scene.
Gotcha. Well, if any of them wanna provide boobs and/or abs, that sounds good to me.
I'm going to play with some ideas on this when I get home tonight with my tablet. I think I could come up with some pretty decently interesting stuff, but no guarantees.
Quote from: LMNO
Tom & I are both in Boston, and have spent waaay too much time in the Goth/Fetish/Industrial scene.
Where IS that scene now that Man Ray is the site of (still unfinished) Cambridge Condos? I never see anything specific anymore and my ties to the Industrial scene have gone lax since I got involved in local hip-hop.
Also, our best bet is probably to recruit random people via a "girls gone wild" strategy: booze, cameras and release forms, and maybe a free hat (HIMEOBS of course).
Quote from: That One Guy on June 22, 2007, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO
Tom & I are both in Boston, and have spent waaay too much time in the Goth/Fetish/Industrial scene.
Where IS that scene now that Man Ray is the site of (still unfinished) Cambridge Condos? I never see anything specific anymore and my ties to the Industrial scene have gone lax since I got involved in local hip-hop.
Also, our best bet is probably to recruit random people via a "girls gone wild" strategy: booze, cameras and release forms, and maybe a free hat (HIMEOBS of course).
Considering that guy's in the cooler, it would appear there's an opening for that sort of thing.
Quote from: That One Guy on June 22, 2007, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO
Tom & I are both in Boston, and have spent waaay too much time in the Goth/Fetish/Industrial scene.
Where IS that scene now that Man Ray is the site of (still unfinished) Cambridge Condos? I never see anything specific anymore and my ties to the Industrial scene have gone lax since I got involved in local hip-hop.
Also, our best bet is probably to recruit random people via a "girls gone wild" strategy: booze, cameras and release forms, and maybe a free hat (HIMEOBS of course).
The DJ and head bartender have Saturday nights upstairs at Axis for the New Wave Night. Machine does an Industrial/Fetish night some Saturdays. Xmortis is at TT the Bear's on occasional Fridays. and Ceremony is at Tua An Nua on Mondays.
LMNO
-knows too much about this shit.
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Pope Tom still has some connections to the club kids, we can ask him. I used to know a lot of people who were expressing their individuality via exhibitionism, but they grew out of it.
Club kids as in Michael Alig and James St. James? Or some post 90's group?
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 22, 2007, 04:53:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Pope Tom still has some connections to the club kids, we can ask him. I used to know a lot of people who were expressing their individuality via exhibitionism, but they grew out of it.
Club kids as in Michael Alig and James St. James? Or some post 90's group?
Quote from: LMNO on June 22, 2007, 03:09:36 PM
Tom & I are both in Boston, and have spent waaay too much time in the Goth/Fetish/Industrial scene.
Damn, blast from the past!
Where were you in 1993?
In Boston, looking at latex-clad tits in a dark & smokey club.
Damn Boston!
Manhattan was where the scene was at ;-)
Not that I got to see it very often seeing as how I had to sneak out of the Watchtower Society complex in order to go play.
NYC?
Bullshit.
Everytime the fetish troupes went to NYC, they blew those fashion victims out of the water.
:lulz:
B U M Pimo this has been the most win thread in the BIP forum with the most impressive fresh new ideas for a while.
(of course they were written up by a relatively new n00b, that only makes sense)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 18, 2007, 09:12:00 PM
I have not commented much on the BIP because I determined to read it from Cover to Cover (which involved a lot of paging about since its in flyer format). However, now that I've finished it (and reread it) I had a couple observations.
First, I suppose I would need to understand the spirit in which it was written, particularly the goals of its writers. Based on other comments hereabout, I was under the assumption that perhaps the BIP was seen as a way of pushing forward some of the popular philosophies held by many Discordians. However, what I read was more of a political/social rant which doesn't look much different from many blogs these days. Should I be looking at BIP as rants, or as propaganda? (Is the audience existing Discordians/Anarchists or Pinks/Cabbages/Thuddites that you wish to thwack open?)
Second, the format feels very ordered. While I don't think that there's a need to do cut-up method for all Discordian works, the overall feel was of a single linear series of rants, preached at an individual, rather than a discourse of philosophy, discussion of models/ideas or anything like that.
Third, there may be some value in examining the perspective... there appear lots of "I think", "I know", "You are" sort of statements, which make the overall feel of the document preachy. Maybe that will work... in my experience though it tends to fall flat.
Observation: In the 1960's when Omar and Mal were working on the PD, the written word was the best form of communication (for the sort of communication they were forming). They used guerrilla publishing and distribution to push their ideas out. In such, they utilized Burroughs's Cut Up method to make their writing very different than the normal writing (for comparison, check out some of the pamphlets being pushed by Chomsky and others during that time). This, I think, was very important. In several of Bob's books and the PD (and a lot of other stuff written by the early proto-discordians), the writing style intentionally breaks from the 'normal' writing style. This makes the read more 'discordant', it makes the read more memorable (I will never forget the telegram to Jehova) and (most important in my opinion), the cut up method plays tricks in the synapses. When the brain doesn't get what it expects, it gets surprised. Surprise information tends to stick in the brain more effectively than expected information. Further, assuming that Leary's theories were, in any way, shocks can also induce meta-programming opportunities. This seems to have been the goal of Mal, Omar and the gang and I've found that it does seem to work (in some sense) in many cases.
However, when reading BIP, it felt just like a Noam Chomsky, Libertarian or similar pamphlet. It had good information, but there was no style, no panache, no finesse.... Good points for the content, but low marks on presentation and use of today's secret ingredient. Remember, any written work can tell someone where to go, but a good one can tell someone where to go and make them look forward to it.
The very first time I read the PD, I had moments of shocking awareness. This wasn't due to the Illumination within the PD, but rather the PD's interaction with my brain... it didn't teach me something new, it just flashed something I should have realized in front of my face and then went on its merry way. Moments later, my brain caught up and said "OH!". The PD is manipulative in its writing, not willing to just lay out the data, but it hides the data in chocolate so you'll eat it before you know what's good for you.
We no longer live in the era of the printed page. We live in a time when data is interactively processed by individuals, nearly simultaneously, complete with multimedia support and LULZ. Maybe a modern revisitation to the PD would be better processed in a new and different format (Maybe weekly YouTube posts or something of that nature). If you want to stick to written work, then I think you may want to find a format that appeals to the modern reader which I'm not sure you've done yet.
I'm sure I'll have more thoughts, but I felt that getting the overall intention would probably be the best first step... so is BIP intended to be more:
Pontificating, Teaching, Subverting or just good ol' Whacking Off?
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Quote from: triple zero on June 21, 2007, 11:26:03 AMholy fuk
that's a way of looking at the PD i hadn't considered yet.
it does make me feel we might have kinda missed the target with the BIP pamphlet in that perspective :)
(btw i don't want to dismiss the original BIP pamphlet here, it has its own definite value in its own right)
ok considering this, we are facing some interesting challenges:
- there's hundreds of different forms of communication out there and indeed, print form might not be the most effective one anymore.
- we have the talent among us to make some interesting new use out of these communication channels, something that hits people from an unexpected angle, and shake them up.
- on the downside, new memes are being created every day over the entire internet, and interest stuff is short-lived
- on the upside, somebody discovering a year-old meme for the first time, often still enjoys it
- uh
interesting and different ways of communication this board has produced so far:
- Silly's upsidedown faces
- Cram's newspaper articles
- the Wrath of MSPaint Cabal's work
- TROLLING other messageboards
- LMNO/Earfatigue voice rants and POEEcasts (though IMO those could be *immensely* improved if Silly were to slap *any* sort of video or whatever behind those and publish on Youtube, for great instant exposure)
- some HIMEOBS tech (RSVP)
- ..
one thing, i think augmenting the LMNO/POEEcasts with a simple sort of video (talking head with appropriate background, whatever) and putting it up on youtube, would increase their audience a LOT. for starters, the sound quality is already a lot better than the average thing you find on youtube, so having a simplistic video going along with it is probably easiest. people want something moving to look at while listening to talking, otherwise their attention is gone like that. anything that moves. srsly.
addition: boobies
Quote from: triple zero on July 02, 2007, 01:30:15 PM
B U M P
imo this has been the most win thread in the BIP forum with the most impressive fresh new ideas for a while.
(of course they were written up by a relatively new n00b, that only makes sense)
mucho breakfast strudels to the writer of those posts
I've had similar thoughts in the "new medium" of getting the message out which is the basic motivation for the first couple vids I've done so far.
I'll throw in the mix to this party.
Quote from: triple zero on June 21, 2007, 11:26:03 AMholy fuk
that's a way of looking at the PD i hadn't considered yet.
it does make me feel we might have kinda missed the target with the BIP pamphlet in that perspective :)
(btw i don't want to dismiss the original BIP pamphlet here, it has its own definite value in its own right)
ok considering this, we are facing some interesting challenges:
- there's hundreds of different forms of communication out there and indeed, print form might not be the most effective one anymore.
- we have the talent among us to make some interesting new use out of these communication channels, something that hits people from an unexpected angle, and shake them up.
- on the downside, new memes are being created every day over the entire internet, and interest stuff is short-lived
- on the upside, somebody discovering a year-old meme for the first time, often still enjoys it
- uh
Well, I didn't originally look at the PD that way... I thought its style was simply nonsense style. Once I read Illuminatus! I realized that there was some trick being played on my brain, but I didn't really put it all together until I had read and correlated the information in Quantum Psychology, Prometheus Rising, The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles (a must read to catch the psychological programming tricks), and the Cosmic Trigger Series. All of that together (with Angel Tech and InfoPsychology) created in my mind an environment which I think may have been in the minds of Hill, Kerry etc. I've found a lot of interesting patterns in the data (and it may all be in my head), but it does appear to me that Wilson and company were specifically trying to play in our minds with this style.
Leary, when you look at his early work, seemed to have a pretty good handle on how brain washing worked. Wilson, from a philosophical position saw these basic brainwashing (programming) techniques used by societies on their children. This further extended then to connect Antero Alli's research on ritual (looking at psychological/physiological effects of the ritual, rather than some supernatural base). Alli considers ritual as a programming tool. Wilson seems to have connected this to rituals among the Freemasons and the Historical Chronicles basically appear as a study of how these rituals might have worked. One book I haven't mentioned, but really seems key to the whole paradigm is "Masks of The Illuminati", we get a very interesting view of how Bob felt that ritual could be used to change people's perceptions.
After processing all of that, I went back and reread the PD and Illuminatus!, in both cases I tried to look for intentional programming (assuming that I wasn't just seeing patterns for my prover to fit my thinker). It seems to me that there are a couple key tricks used. (I'm a hacker, please excuse the metaphors)
1) The Buffer Overflow - In computer lingo, a buffer overflow means that you stick more data in an area than should go there. When that happens sometimes the system pukes the data into a different area, if that different area has higher privileges... then you might be able to execute a command that you shouldn't be able to. In mental metaprogramming we see a similar kind of thing. A deluge of information which may be of questionable value, then right around the end (when your brain has started puking the data back up a bit) there's the actual programming. This seems to occasionally work and I've seen such tricks documented as part of cult brainwashing and even among members of the intelligence community.
In the PD and TIT this seems to happen in many of the insane runon paragraphs (some excellent examples in Schroedinger's Cat as well). Numerous times there will be a mass of words that may or may not be saying anything useful... but right toward the end there's a key philosophical point which I think our brains are intended to simply pick up. The great imagry from TIT where we see the painting of Moses on Hagbard's submarine. After trivial statements, blah descriptions etc. there's that great line about the One commandment that Moses is pictured with "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!"
2) Injection Attacks - Injection attacks happen when you expect some data and instead get data + commands. In computers, if you expect the user to type their username and they actually type "username' or '1=1 " the computer (if its not looking for it) will process the data as "SELECT user where their username =username or 1=1" Well 1 always equals 1 so the attacker can now log in with no password. In a similar vein, some of the metaprogramming tricks I think I see appear similar. We get expected results, with superfluous data... the superfluous data is the actual payload.
I think Hypoc and the Bitter Tea might be an example where this is used. Also, perhaps in the Sermon on Ethics and Love.
3) Unexpected Response - Sometimes systems will get terribly confused if you provide them with unexpected information/commands/etc. In hypnosis there are a few tricks that make use of this with subjects. One, for example involves preping the user over a period of time to know what to expect in a hypnotic state, then eventually an unexpected response. For example, the hypnotist may extend his hand and as the person goes to shake it, they take their hand away. If the person has been placed in the right state of mind already, this can cause their neurological system to appear to simply drop into a wait state. Again, this same sort of trickery appears in both PD and Illuminatus!
This appears more often in some of Bob's later work, though I think we could connect a few of the PD parables here. In Schrodinger's Cat, I think the first one I noticed was his destruction of the planet at the end of the first couple chapters (or was it the first chapter?)
In short, I think these little mental tricks are one of the key things that keep the PD relevant. Even if you don't get all of the period references, the mental programming still works.
Of course, I may be full of Bullshit (but it makes the flowers grow yadda, yadda, yadda)
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 21, 2007, 02:16:49 PM
If anyone else does, however, then let me know and I'll jump right on it.
why not take short sequences of other videos (maybe currently popular youtube videos) and put some meme bombs into it, just as text over the image. so people would be bombarded with information via three layers: the audio, the images, the text.
this is where i got the ideas from. unfortunately it's german and i don't know if there's some similar tv show in the us/uk; but maybe you're getting the idea, or the inspiration. they're talking about the theory of relativity....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MFg2L_B3Lgc
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/mittenspixelated-1.jpg), Ratatosk
Quote from: stromcrow on July 03, 2007, 11:15:52 PM
why not take short sequences of other videos (maybe currently popular youtube videos) and put some meme bombs into it, just as text over the image. so people would be bombarded with information via three layers: the audio, the images, the text.
this is where i got the ideas from. unfortunately it's german and i don't know if there's some similar tv show in the us/uk; but maybe you're getting the idea, or the inspiration. they're talking about the theory of relativity....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MFg2L_B3Lgc
there's heaps of ideas being kicked around for vid clips. i do think it is a great new medium to include in the campaign
Silly's new forum at http://p3nt4gr4m.com/boards/ looks to be a promising new place to hold these discussions
fixdidit, cuz i'm an idiot
Rat, that was an awesome analysis.
Could you explain #2 a bit more?
IMO, while "a buffer overflow means that you stick more data in an area than should go there. When that happens sometimes the system pukes the data into a different area, if that different area has higher privileges... then you might be able to execute a command that you shouldn't be able to." is one of the most concise and fully correct ways of explaining a buffer overflow in classic computer hacking i have ever seen, i don't really think it works as a metaphor for "mindhacking" or "brainwashing" techniques, because, TBH, the two don't have very much in common with eachother.
except that you can learn both best by unsatisfiable curiosity and an obsessive compulsion for tinkering, perhaps :)
IMO it would be more useful to explain these techniques from the usual psychologial point of view, or perhaps if you wanna give it some flair the magickal point of view (but i would advise against that, even though it just explains the same things with different words, people on this forum are kinda allergic to it, because they think psychology is actual science and therefore more valid :) ) um so that's really not going to go anywhere.
psychology it is.
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 03, 2007, 09:24:46 PM
Leary, when you look at his early work, seemed to have a pretty good handle on how brain washing worked. Wilson, from a philosophical position saw these basic brainwashing (programming) techniques used by societies on their children. This further extended then to connect Antero Alli's research on ritual (looking at psychological/physiological effects of the ritual, rather than some supernatural base). Alli considers ritual as a programming tool. Wilson seems to have connected this to rituals among the Freemasons and the Historical Chronicles basically appear as a study of how these rituals might have worked. One book I haven't mentioned, but really seems key to the whole paradigm is "Masks of The Illuminati", we get a very interesting view of how Bob felt that ritual could be used to change people's perceptions.
After processing all of that, I went back and reread the PD and Illuminatus!, in both cases I tried to look for intentional programming (assuming that I wasn't just seeing patterns for my prover to fit my thinker). It seems to me that there are a couple key tricks used. (I'm a hacker, please excuse the metaphors)
.............
In short, I think these little mental tricks are one of the key things that keep the PD relevant. Even if you don't get all of the period references, the mental programming still works.
Of course, I may be full of Bullshit (but it makes the flowers grow yadda, yadda, yadda)
I've been thinking on and off on this one for the past day. As a ritualist by practice I find a lot of relevance in what you are saying in your 3 techniques. There are similar techniques used in ritual space. Nice analogy to computer programming and one that I think works quite well. There is a potential trap in the analogy which is the over-mechanisation of the process. I find it near impossible to separate the psychological, physiological and "superantural" aspects of any event or reality. While the analogy to computer programming is an extremely valid one and holds much merit in the simple fact that our brains are (in one frame of reference) simply chemical computers, it does not complete the picture with regards to who/what is involved. I completely agree that ritual is a programming tool and there are many tools in the basket to choose from. At the same time, through personal experience, I have had to make room for the "ghost in the machine" or supernatural aspect of what is occuring in ritual. The one being programmed, the one programming and (for lack of a better term) the programer's programer all come in to play in significant ritual practice.
More to your specific point though. I couldn't agree more with the premise that the same technique works even if the period references are old. I also feel it is part of the reason why the PD was written and is perceived as a joke. Humour, its rythm, timing and technique is also similar to the computer analogies you made. Many of a good punchline was delivered as superfluous or unexpected data. I think that humor itself should not be excluded from the list of techniques used.
So its about updating the period references and finding updated metaphors to carry the payloads. Computer science, the internet, war in the middle east, global warming ... these are the kind of things that would replace Mao Buttons.
Quote from: triple zero on July 05, 2007, 01:30:28 PM
, i don't really think it works as a metaphor for "mindhacking" or "brainwashing" techniques, because, TBH, the two don't have very much in common with eachother.
except that you can learn both best by unsatisfiable curiosity and an obsessive compulsion for tinkering, perhaps :)
Not so sure I'd agree with that. Techniques like Mantra could be considered Buffer Overflows. Actaully, there are quite a few ritualistic practices that might fall under this category, Sufi dances is one and even self-flagelation could be in this pile. There is also a VERY hardocre Buffer Overflow feeling to Leary's "How to Operate Yor Brain" video
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IMO it would be more useful to explain these techniques from the usual psychologial point of view, or perhaps if you wanna give it some flair the magickal point of view (but i would advise against that, even though it just explains the same things with different words, people on this forum are kinda allergic to it, because they think psychology is actual science and therefore more valid :) ) um so that's really not going to go anywhere.
psychology it is.
Reckon I'm screwed then, eh?
Quote from: Forteetu on July 05, 2007, 02:00:14 PM
Not so sure I'd agree with that. Techniques like Mantra could be considered Buffer Overflows. Actaully, there are quite a few ritualistic practices that might fall under this category, Sufi dances is one and even self-flagelation could be in this pile. There is also a VERY hardocre Buffer Overflow feeling to Leary's "How to Operate Yor Brain" video
is that video on youtube or googlevid?
i agree that the buffer overflow model works rather well, but the problem is, the metaphore doesn't really get you very far, if you delve deeper into the details (buffer overflow, data dumped, ok and now what) you'll be looking at shellcode for the brain, filter evasion, arbitrary code execution, etc. and while i'm sure you can hook up some sort of analogy between the brain and a computer system, it doesn't really get you very far, because at the fundamental level the things are very different, so you can't really extrapolate "ok if this works in computer hacking, i can do a similar thing to my brain", doesn't work, you can only (and always) connect the correspondences
backwards.
though (and no offense meant by this) if you're used to magickal systems and occult, the fact that the correspondences can only be found after the fact shouldn't bother you too much :)
also i'd like to echo LMNO, of Ratatosk could elaborate a bit more on the injection attack, because IMO this is exactly such a where the correspondence seems to be superficially there but when you examine it close doesn't quite hold up. (but maybe i'm wrong and Rat will demonstrate)
QuoteIMO it would be more useful to explain these techniques from the usual psychologial point of view, or perhaps if you wanna give it some flair the magickal point of view (but i would advise against that, even though it just explains the same things with different words, people on this forum are kinda allergic to it, because they think psychology is actual science and therefore more valid :) ) um so that's really not going to go anywhere.
psychology it is.
Reckon I'm screwed then, eh?[/quote]
heh.
if you look in the archives of the BIP subforum you'll find some threads about symbolism and occult stuff.
we tried.
it's all very nice and easy, there's a few members on this board quite well versed in QBLH and the occult, but in the end we got hit on the head by Roger and a friend of his.
and in the end i think they were right. because connecting Tarot and Qabalah to BIP-topics is all very nice, but you tend to lose focus and start gnawing away at the menu while your steak is getting cold. what i mean is, it can be a very fun intellectual game to talk and chat about, but unless you really practice it all (with the meditation, visualisation and rituals etc) it is just intellectual sockfucking in the end. so i'm not saying it can't be useful at all, but you'll have a hard time getting anything fruitful from it by discussing it on this forum.
that, and you'll be dodging flames from the pragmatists hammering away at your more vague statements, that you won't have a chance to actually get anywhere either :)
i think that about sums it up from our past experiments connecting the occult and current-day discordianism.
Quote from: triple zero on July 05, 2007, 03:06:46 PM
is that video on youtube or googlevid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQq_XmhBTgg
Quote
i agree that the buffer overflow model works rather well, but the problem is, the metaphore doesn't really get you very far, if you delve deeper into the details (buffer overflow, data dumped, ok and now what) you'll be looking at shellcode for the brain, filter evasion, arbitrary code execution, etc. and while i'm sure you can hook up some sort of analogy between the brain and a computer system, it doesn't really get you very far, because at the fundamental level the things are very different, so you can't really extrapolate "ok if this works in computer hacking, i can do a similar thing to my brain", doesn't work, you can only (and always) connect the correspondences backwards.
Again, I think this is where it becomes difficult to seperate the physiological/psychological and metaphysical aspects of reprogramming. It is these ritualistic "buffer overflow" techniques such as mantra that overflow the logical/rational mind to inject reprogramming directions directly to the psyche/metaphysical self while in gnostic state.
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though (and no offense meant by this) if you're used to magickal systems and occult, the fact that the correspondences can only be found after the fact shouldn't bother you too much :)
None taken. I see great value in allowing personal experience to color perception and many times have my perceptions been changed "after the fact" of a ritual experience.
Quote
it's all very nice and easy, there's a few members on this board quite well versed in QBLH and the occult, but in the end we got hit on the head by Roger and a friend of his.
and in the end i think they were right. because connecting Tarot and Qabalah to BIP-topics is all very nice, but you tend to lose focus and start gnawing away at the menu while your steak is getting cold. what i mean is, it can be a very fun intellectual game to talk and chat about, but unless you really practice it all (with the meditation, visualisation and rituals etc) it is just intellectual sockfucking in the end. so i'm not saying it can't be useful at all, but you'll have a hard time getting anything fruitful from it by discussing it on this forum.
I fully support the idea that the occult is nothing without practice. Read all you want and brag about your library of tomes, but if you're not out there in rite, its just all meaningless drivel. I do think that modern-day Discordianism has a role in ritual practice. The message still has not gotten across to ritualists as spelled out in ON OCCULTISM, they're all to serious and gothy. There is a quickly growing community of ritualists out there, they should be reminded that laughter is an acceptable form of magickal practice.
LMNO, Forteetu and Triple Zero
An injection attack occurs when you provide a system that is expecting DATA with something that looks like data, but is actually programming. In most cases, a web form is feeding the data you enter into a database... if you can send database commands instead of the data it expects, you can change the functionality of the program.
Illuminatus! does this (as does Schroedinger's Cat). I don't have examples in front of me (I really should do a more indepth analysis at some point) ;-)
Basically, Bob pulled this off by creating nonsensical paragraphs, or paragraphs that appeared to make sense but didn't. Sometimes, this happened with a single sentence than ran on for most of a page, or in at least one case, the descriptions you read in the paragraph are actually describing opposites (such as talking about the sun shinning , but within a sentence or two mentioning that it was dark).
When you see these sorts of blobs of data, there's often a philosophical SMACK either right at the end, or intermingled with the nonsense.
Basically, if your sucking up a load of nonsense, it seems common for people to set the "reading robot" on autopilot. Data gets sucked off the page and into the brain without a lot of filtering (maybe because you've had to shut off your filters to even process it I dunno). Along with the nonsense data, you get a bit of programming data.
The similarity with a SQL Injection attack is only so useful... but it seemed ok for a metaphor. I do agree that any computer programming metaphor is only partially useful and doesn't really get into the depths of the psychology involved. However, it seemed a useful way to lump the most obvious tricks used in some of the 'traditional' Discordian works which I think the BIP could benefit from.
Peter Carroll once said that every time your brain makes a new 'connection' between different bits of data, the natural reaction is laughter ("If you don't laugh after seeing a particularly clever bit of mathematics, then you probably didn't understand it"). I have no idea how scientific his view is, but it does often seem that new ideas/concepts/philosophies tend to be accepted by the masses when presented humorously. Maybe we tend to miss the serious stuff, maybe its just that the serious stuff makes us laugh, if its really a new idea... maybe all of this is bunk.
well, IMO, a well-written mathematical proof is in structure VERY similar to a good joke with punchline.
so from that notion, i can totally understand where that Carrol guy is coming from.
BUT i'm not so sure about the "laugh when a new connection is made" thing. it may be true, but it sounds a bit like he's seen a few examples that seem to correspond with eachother and made up a rule about it. not very scientific indeed, but of course not necessarily wrong either.
did you know young kids laugh when they see something unexpected happen?
if they see a brick falling upwards, they'll start laughing.
if an adult sees it, it'll freak them out. unless they can quickly spot "the trick" and then laugh about "how clever" it was. but is that the same kind of laughter?
is there a difference between laughter at the unknown and some sort of relieved laughter of "getting it" ? or is it both the same thing, based on the experience of "learning", like mr Carrol says?
the above paragraph is probably important to take into account when designing O:MF mindfucks, street art, etc.
coming back to the math proof and humour. i once read John Cleese trying to give a (his) definition of humour: "two frames of reference that appear unconnected, being brought into correspondence/connection in an unexpected manner" (sorry this is retranslated back from the dutch translation of a book by him i once read).
the thing is, this is really the same structure as a mathematical proof. the one frame of reference is the premises/axioms, things that you already know. the other frame of reference is the thing you are setting out to prove.
all that a proof basically does is rewriting the premises according to their rules, until you end up with the sentence you were trying to prove. and that's when you write QED, "that which we set out to prove", which is the punchline.
the manner in which the correspondence is "unexpected" is a measure of how trivial the proof is. if you set out to prove that 2 + 3 = 5 (look it up, i have written the proof somewhere in the archives of this forum) it's not really interesting and a rather bad joke. but the proof that there's an infinite number of primes is already more funny. Turing's halting problem never fails to bring at least a smirk to someone who really gets it (and the implications) for the first time. and Goedel's Incompleteness theorem is so funny it's almost scary, in a very very similar way to the way we discordians laugh at the horrible troofs we write.
Triple zero,
I think you and I are on the same pages as to Carroll's commentary. I think it may be true in some sense, I'm just not sure that his explanation uses the traditional scientific models. But then, maybe it does... Carroll has some pretty deep ties in physics etc... so maybe there's something more behind it than metaphor....
is he a good read, btw? got any suggestions (titles) for something i might pick up?
Carroll writes mostly on the Chaos Magic system... so depending on your choice of models, it may or may not be to your liking. "Liber Null& Psychonaut " is my favorite of his writings. He also wrote Liber Kaos which is good too.
I can't remember if it was psychonaught or liber kaos I read a few years back but I liked his take on quantum theory.
He wasn't really coming at it from the 'pseudo quantum' angle that a lot of the new agers and the like seem to have a field day with but he did suggest that quantum theory pointed to an indiscriminate universe where probability is only defined by point of observation.
Made me think of the old 'tree falling in the woods' gag - one of those things that a lot of people seem to think they 'get' but obviously don't fully, otherwise they wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
Also Pete Carroll has a writing style that totally blows away years of dusty archaic traditional bollix that occult theory has been needing to shake off for centuries now. He kinda ditches a lot of that kitschy mumbo jumbo that prolly sat a lot better with the neanderthals who came up with it.
I just want to point out that every occult secret is either so banal that a sockfucker could figure it out, or so abstract as to be useless.
You may now carry on.
There are no occult secrets.
Not any more.
Secrecy goes back to the days where you could get set on fire for things like knowing there's no such thing as god.
It's all just modes of consciousness that most people never think to experience.
Point. If I can find the secrets of the Assassins and the OTO both by merely using Google, then they ain't that good at keeping them.
Quote from: Cain on July 07, 2007, 12:59:22 PM
I just want to point out that every occult secret is either so banal that a sockfucker could figure it out, or so abstract as to be useless.
You may now carry on.
There are no secrets. The same core concepts are told over and over again and in countless variant ways at different times and in different societies. Each time these core concepts are wrapped in the context of the reality grid of the audience. Understanding the "secrets" of each path is simply becoming familiar with the reality tunnel it was being delivered through. When times were more difficult for the radical free thinkers, "the burning times" ... (i hate that saying) ... then the concepts were concealed in more ambiguous "secrets". Not only can the secrets of the "mystery orders" be found on the internet now, but the same concepts are also plainly visible in other paths.
You know, I had originally intended to put that phrase, occult secrets, in quotation marks. I don't know why I didn't.
Quote from: Cain on July 07, 2007, 12:59:22 PM
I just want to point out that every occult secret is either so banal that a sockfucker could figure it out, or so abstract as to be useless.
You may now carry on.
The occult secrets you speak about are not the occult secrets you experience. You can read about perception manipulation all day long... but the 'secret' may exist only in the experience.
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 08, 2007, 05:25:42 PM
The occult secrets you speak about are not the occult secrets you experience. You can read about perception manipulation all day long... but the 'secret' may exist only in the experience.
:thumb:
bump
cause forteetu mentioned hacking techniques as a metaphore for .. whatever we're doing here, and i just realized he was even more right.
it's all about "breaking out" of your current environment.
in the buffer overflow, you break out of the buffer to get into code-execution space
in the sql injection, you first break out of the quoted variable, then out of the current statement (and then into the database)
in the cross-site scripting (XSS), you break out of the HTML encoding, the javascript encoding, the current environment whereever your data is inserted. you break the first prison wall; a quote. you break the second prison wall; a closing bracket >; now you're "free", and that is where the fun really begins, because now you can do stuff that you couldn't do before.
... back to whatever i wasn't doing.
Quote from: triple zero on August 28, 2007, 03:01:18 PM
bump
cause forteetu mentioned hacking techniques as a metaphore for .. whatever we're doing here, and i just realized he was even more right.
it's all about "breaking out" of your current environment.
in the buffer overflow, you break out of the buffer to get into code-execution space
in the sql injection, you first break out of the quoted variable, then out of the current statement (and then into the database)
in the cross-site scripting (XSS), you break out of the HTML encoding, the javascript encoding, the current environment whereever your data is inserted. you break the first prison wall; a quote. you break the second prison wall; a closing bracket >; now you're "free", and that is where the fun really begins, because now you can do stuff that you couldn't do before.
... back to whatever i wasn't doing.
Yep, I also have a book put out by the famed geek press "O'Reilly". It's called "Mind Hacks: Tips and Tools for Using Your Brain". I also have Phil Hine's "The Book of Atem: Secrets of Evocation for the 21st Century" the similarities seem quite interesting.
i have mind hacks in electronic format but i can't really get into it, somehow.
Quote from: triple zero on August 28, 2007, 04:22:55 PM
i have mind hacks in electronic format but i can't really get into it, somehow.
I noticed this too...
Maybe these sorts of things are best discussed within the less scientific models, Chaos Magic, 8-Circuits etc. It all seems to discuss the same stuff... but Bob's books, Carroll and Hine's stuff... state the idea with a depth and richness that Mind Hacks just doesn't seem to have.
Though, the similarities between its exercises and chaos magic exercises leaves me to wonder if, perhaps the writers weren't perhaps familiar with the ideas and tried to restate them without the metaphors and mysticism... maybe it lost something in translation.
Or maybe comparing the writing quality of an O'Reilly book to RAW isn't fair ;-)
well, from programming reference manuals and technical stuff, i know O'Reilly is really high quality stuff. not only for completeness and accuracy, but also the writing style is usually good to read.
i'm inclined to agree that the "chaos magic" or "occult" approach to the whole mindhacking business appeals more to me as well. of course, the added difficulty is that you need to keep your head clear, avoid consuming the menu and keep translating "what does this metaphore *really* mean".
Quote from: triple zero on August 28, 2007, 05:02:08 PM
well, from programming reference manuals and technical stuff, i know O'Reilly is really high quality stuff. not only for completeness and accuracy, but also the writing style is usually good to read.
i'm inclined to agree that the "chaos magic" or "occult" approach to the whole mindhacking business appeals more to me as well. of course, the added difficulty is that you need to keep your head clear, avoid consuming the menu and keep translating "what does this metaphore *really* mean".
I agree... but maybe that constant self-questioning is necessary to grok the concepts? Maybe it fits with Leary's "meta-programming" circuit or even Crowley's "Every Solider is followed by a Hunchback" !?!?!?!?!?
With quantum physics, we have to get our head out of normal reality and talk about concepts using metaphors that don't quite fit (Wave/Particle etc). Maybe to discuss the mind we are more able to function with the use metaphors that aren't trying to expressly state what IS going on, but rather as a more abstract model. Systems that analyze themselves seem difficult to do right.. if it can be done at all. However, a system should more easily be able to analyze a model (which happens to be very close to the system itself)... maybe.