Take it, leave it, whatever ,Ķ some thoughts from one reader of the BIP.
I guess more than anything else, it seemed ,Äúpreachy,Äù. Serious and dark observations, opinions and arguments that all seemed to be directed AT the reader and most of time delivered from what felt like the top of a soap box. At times the message was along the lines of ,Äúyou,Äôre on your own pal, wise up and see the prison you,Äôre in,Äù or become and suffer the consequences of being a part of the MACHINE. Fair enough and although stark and bleak, the over-all metaphor of the prison is well developed. When the message turns to one of ,Äúwise up or we,Äôre coming to get you,Äù, this just seems to close to the fire and brimstone preaching, again just felt like I was being berated from a pulpit at times.
My personal opinion would be that as a ,Äúrevisit to Discordia,Äù it misses the mark on the serious/humorous element that (I feel) is central to Discordianism. What has drawn me to Discordianism as a ,Äúdefault reality grid,Äù is the laugh. It is a fun way to view the universe we live in. The original PD says to the reader, ,Äúcome and view the world this way, suspend your disbelief and have a laugh with me,Äù. The BIP creates a rather stark reality grid for the reader and any real laughs are had at the reader,Äôs expense. While this may be the intent, it,Äôs not an effective method for getting people to buy-in.
What I saw as I was reading it was the basis for a kind of journal, a prison journal written and left behind to be discovered by the next inmate. The journal is told in first person and builds the reality grid of BIP as our anonymous journal author learns his ropes around the prison he found himself in. Stories and anecdotes relate key learnings and discoveries about the nature of the prison and its inhabitants with other characters portraying certain archetypes or personality classes for interaction lessons. The jail authority being the ,ÄúMachine,Äù, while appearing all encompassing it actually represents the twisted, corrupt failings of the endeavors of man and conformity. The affects of disinformation could be relayed in the interactions of prison inmates and guards. While not mythical in any sense, a pantheon or host of characters could be useful in delivering material. All this leads up to the eventual awakening and escape of the journal author, leaving behind a guide for the next hapless prisoner.
Anyway, just my thoughts ,Ķ
Congrats over-all on getting a group of Discordians together to get anything done.
BTW, favorite line of the text is page 18 ,Ķ ,ÄúTherefore we exist because something is a lying cheating bastard.,Äù Love this concept and was the one decent laugh in the whole text. Not only is this a decent chuckle, but as the ,Äúsomething,Äù is very easily linked to the eastern philosophy of the ,Äúillusion of separation,Äù, it,Äôs a metaphysically correct statement as well.
fair enough assessment. I think it's not so much that we left the humor out as it is that a majority of hte people that collaborate on this project have REALLY dark senses of humor.
I'd agree with Tits on this, as I've had a similar perspective on the BIP. I won't say I've read everything there is to offer, (working on it), but it does carry with it a sense of urgency that turns me off to allot of philosophical tracts (Although some def. need to hear it.).
I still consider it valuable and interesting work, and plan to pitch in my own views when the solidify to coherency.
To be clear: The BIP was never meant to be a stand-alone work. There were two other projects planned to follow, one of which would have been an attempt to infuse some more modern humor into the material. "Lollercaust" it would've been called. There was also another that would've delved more into the occult type stuff. Unfortunately, as it has been mentioned many times by many of us, we don't get paid to do this stuff. And so the requisite pot of community time and effort was rather empty.
Yeah it's dark, yeah it's preachy. That's how a lot of us felt at that time. We all started writing and this was what came out. Again, more was to follow but we just couldn't get into the proper modes to churn it out.
I think it would still be nice to get a "Lollercaust" type thing done but it seems like we're in a dry spell right now. Perhaps as summer turns to fall the creative juices will start flowing. And hopefully, the new blood can throw down as well.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 15, 2007, 05:55:32 PM
To be clear: The BIP was never meant to be a stand-alone work.
Naw. But if you ram it into "top billing", it makes it
look that way.
I have to say I agree. Especially considering how pre-conditioned people are to read from top to bottom.
"Okay, so I've come to PrincipiaDiscordia.com now I'm going to try these forums out. ??? What's this BIP thing?"
I understand the sentiment. Getting new blood into the thing, but I think perhaps it's more appropriate to move it back down and have the established posters guide the new blood. I just think it may be confusing for n00bs and they're likely to skip it anyway.
Just my thoughts, take them for what they're worth.
I also think that if we go off on any othe substantial courses of thought (i.e. Shrapnel, Ripples, etc.) we may want to retitle the sub-forum.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 15, 2007, 06:12:09 PM
I have to say I agree. Especially considering how pre-conditioned people are to read from top to bottom.
"Okay, so I've come to PrincipiaDiscordia.com now I'm going to try these forums out. ??? What's this BIP thing?"
I understand the sentiment. Getting new blood into the thing, but I think perhaps it's more appropriate to move it back down and have the established posters guide the new blood.
Well, that's because you hate America,Ñ¢ and love terrorists.
We should just rename the whole forum BIP, and erase everything else, as was earlier threatened.
Then we'd be REALLY REAL Discordians, because WE'D have a BIP, and those losers over on Myspace wouldn't.
I'm gonna name my new cat Bippy the WunderBip.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on July 15, 2007, 06:16:33 PM
I'm gonna name my new cat Bippy the WunderBip.
I'm gonna ask our local board of corrections to rename all of the state prisons BIPs.
Since the BIP was only one part of a much larger trend, and this has been an area more for new ideas than anything else, a name change may be in order. Something linked to Neophilia, perhaps?
Also, I really need to remove that new reply crap while on wireless. I spent 7 minutes trying to post my above reply.
sounds good to me. I think we need to get away from BIP for awhile. It's kind of like were those parents who refuse to remodel their son's room. The son who has since gone on to college and is now running his own IT business.
the common thing between the topics discussed in this subforum seems to be that they're all in a way connected to reality grids, how they are formed and how they can be dissected.
a name change is a good idea, because even though the subforum is called BIP, only the old threads are really about the BIP anymore, and the rest is mostly busy searching for something new to explore.
but a name like "neophilic reality grid development studies" is probably something you'd rather find at the bottom of the forumlist anyway :) :)
Quote from: triple zero on July 15, 2007, 06:44:09 PM
the common thing between the topics discussed in this subforum seems to be that they're all in a way connected to reality grids, how they are formed and how they can be dissected.
a name change is a good idea, because even though the subforum is called BIP, only the old threads are really about the BIP anymore, and the rest is mostly busy searching for something new to explore.
but a name like "neophilic reality grid development studies" is probably something you'd rather find at the bottom of the forumlist anyway :) :)
How about we call it "ITT, WE TAKE OURSELVES ALL SERIOUSLY!"?
yeah let's call the subform "Serious Discordianism"
instant WINNAR
Quote from: triple zero on July 15, 2007, 06:48:46 PM
yeah let's call the subform "Serious Discordianism"
instant WINNAR
:mittens:
Then we should invite Prince Tao over as a guest speaker.
too much serious
too much fluff
is there really any cause for alarm?
ultimately its up to the reader to do the due diligence
everything is available
the BIP is what it is
a online collection of perspectives written by people who see a society of closed minds
and see this as a bad thing
most people who say that a piece of art 'changed their life' were people who were looking to have their life impacted and changed
and were open to or seeking alternative points of view
Then again, if it is this or 23pinealglandness and talking about what I ate, then this wins out every single time.
Quote from: Cain on July 15, 2007, 07:25:48 PM
Then again, if it is this or 23pinealglandness and talking about what I ate, then this wins out every single time.
no contest
looking at it that way - i guess its this shit that distinguishes this forum from every other bulletin board in the history of cybernetica
so maybe it isnt such a bad idea to highlight this shit
maybe just change the section title to 'Think for Yourself'
Quote from: LHX on July 15, 2007, 07:28:27 PM
maybe just change the section title to 'Think for Yourself'
Whatever. Just so long as we mash it in every noob's face.
:lulz:
HA
you have been ordered to think for yourself
OR ELSE MOTHERFUCKER
I thought that BIP was an exploration/elaboration of the 'reality grid' concept from the PD. Also, before there was BIP, there was discussion of 'PD06'. I considered the BIP discussions simply to be an extension of one aspect of PD and not the entire thing itself.
I think that other relevant points should be retrieved & discussed as much as possible and added to what's already been achieved.
As for BIP itself, it's been thrashed out fairly thoroughly and, like RWHN said, could probably benefit from being left for a while so we can turn our attention to other things.
Right now, the 'shrapnel/ripples/radiation' idea seems to be where the momentum is. At least, the momentum relating to the original PD06 thought. The momentum for cock/repost/fail is as strong as ever as far as I can tell. :lulz:
Quote from: Mangrove on July 15, 2007, 10:28:15 PM
Right now, the 'shrapnel/ripples/radiation' idea seems to be where the momentum is. At least, the momentum relating to the original PD06 thought. The momentum for cock/repost/fail is as strong as ever as far as I can tell. :lulz:
Things are looking up!
Turning the corner!
STAY TEH COARSE!
:lulz:
I'm staying the course!! No flip-flopping for me!! :wink:
everything in the BIP is true anyway
so i dont know what all the commotion is about
Quote from: Cain on July 15, 2007, 06:18:29 PM
Since the BIP was only one part of a much larger trend, and this has been an area more for new ideas than anything else, a name change may be in order. Something linked to Neophilia, perhaps?
Neophilia?
Is that ever sarcasm.
Maybe Apocalips would be a good umbrella name for all the different WAKE THE HELL UP projects.
Well, I'm going to try to have my cake and eat it too. And while I'm discussing the intricate layers of the cake, I'm going to tell you all about how yummy it was in Discordian Recipes.
42, I actually like the idea of "fictionalizing" aspects of the BIP as part of a "notes left behind for the next Prisoner".
Kind of like in V, where Evey gets the letter from the woman in the other cell.
Hmmm... A lot of V thoughts lately. Is it on cable now or something?
Already in bargain DVD racks, anyways.
Even in screen format, its memorable thou, and makes a good allusion.
Cramulus' Suggestions for forward progress
1. identify the specific sections of the BIP which are considered too dark or too preachy (the two most common complaints about it).
2. modify them on the wiki.
3. take all this stuff and put it in a new PDF-book. In this book the BIP metaphor is mixed in with humorous stuff such as meme bombs, Discordians in History, the Parable of the Gong, a lot of Vex's stuff, and other more "high content / high humor" passages. Add art.
5. profit
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 03:19:07 PM
42, I actually like the idea of "fictionalizing" aspects of the BIP as part of a "notes left behind for the next Prisoner".
I agree here too. I think if we continue the shtick (that Discordia = Joke = Religion), we need a parable which illustrates these principles.
I think we need a story about a Jesus-like figure that sees the BIP and escapes from it. You know, so followers of this ideology can say "What Would Edmund Lava do?" (or whatever his name is). Only this guy probably isn't a miraculous miracle birth with rainbows coming out of his chakras, he's probably an average gray faced shmuck like you and me. But by the end of the story he's cool.
((I just got the following funny mental picture - a training montage about illumination))
I've been thinking about writing this myself but no time at the moment.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 16, 2007, 03:52:59 PM
Cramulus' Suggestions for forward progress
1. identify the specific sections of the BIP which are considered too dark or too preachy (the two most common complaints about it).
2. modify them on the wiki.
3. take all this stuff and put it in a new PDF-book. In this book the BIP metaphor is mixed in with humorous stuff such as meme bombs, Discordians in History, the Parable of the Gong, a lot of Vex's stuff, and other more "high content / high humor" passages. Add art.
5. profit
This post is here to agree with Cram.
Cram - Agreed on forward progress solution.
Love the name 'Edmund Lava'.
LMNO - I think that your original BIP piece should be paired with your GSP piece. After the reader goes through the BIP, you could add a filler paragraph that says:
"And if you find all that dark, scary & depressing, then read this instead." - then lead into the GSP piece. That way, people will get to see both sides of the coin, realize they're the same, that the coin is a metaphor and that the bitching about how 'dark the BIP was' was, in fact, horse shit.
Well, that's what my cereal was telling me this morning.
I'm thinking I need to wrap up "LMNO-PI" with a quick gunshot to the head, and get to work on "Lost in the City: Being a Moral Tale of a Man Trapped in Prison".
LMNO-PI - The Final Installment.
When I woke up...it was all a dream.
The End.
- Thanks in advance. Send check to usual address.
Hey all, interesting convo since my post. I've been a bit busy the last few days and not around for much foruming.
I used to write a fair bit, but long ago. Most of what I write now is for ritual purpose or guided meditations/trance work. Personally, I think the BIP project is missing some metaphysical aspects, but then you've got a lot of barstools around here. I'd be happy to contribute a bit here and there if you think anything is worth taking. Nothing strikes me just now, but maybe I as continue to poke around here I'll get a wild inspiration.
I don't really see any consistent framework across some of these metaphors. This kind of prison thing and this modern warfare/IED/shrapnel thing ... kind of hard to find a cohesive frame to fit
Cram, I like you're ideas of "go forward" and would be willing to help identify what I thought were "preachy" bits. What's the deal with the wiki? i've never really used one except for reading
LMNO, ... is that PI in reference to Private Investigator?? done that work before ... worst shitty job I have ever had!
Quote from: Forteetu on July 17, 2007, 04:54:28 AM
Hey all, interesting convo since my post. I've been a bit busy the last few days and not around for much foruming.
I used to write a fair bit, but long ago. Most of what I write now is for ritual purpose or guided meditations/trance work. Personally, I think the BIP project is missing some metaphysical aspects, but then you've got a lot of barstools around here. I'd be happy to contribute a bit here and there if you think anything is worth taking. Nothing strikes me just now, but maybe I as continue to poke around here I'll get a wild inspiration.
I don't really see any consistent framework across some of these metaphors. This kind of prison thing and this modern warfare/IED/shrapnel thing ... kind of hard to find a cohesive frame to fit
Cram, I like you're ideas of "go forward" and would be willing to help identify what I thought were "preachy" bits. What's the deal with the wiki? i've never really used one except for reading
LMNO, ... is that PI in reference to Private Investigator?? done that work before ... worst shitty job I have ever had!
Go and read it http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=4569.0
It is required.
Also very long.
There are also places that have the text without the commentary or jpeg battles.
For example, http://dolphin.esosoft.net/erisbarandgrill.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1119 .