wtf is with the BIP login page?
it willnot let me create an account.
One does not simply walk into a BIP wiki account.
I'll set you up. You'll get a PM shortly.
so, I'm looking at the user list over at the wiki.
wtf happend to Starship, Take Me and RygD?
Haven't seen either in ages.
i suppose a starship took him, and ryg got rolled.
makes sense
I want to propose an overhaul of the Wiki. Moar later.
Quote from: Cain on September 17, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
I want to propose an overhaul of the Wiki. Moar later.
Overhaul all you want, the BIP is dead.
And to think we had high hopes of magazines and mass movement.
It was never going to be a mass movement. Also, some of us had jobs which kind of meant even being on a computer was difficult, which kind of make things tricky when your production team exists on the internet and not down the road in a nice office.
Troof. If any of you are filthy rich, and can replace my current yearly salary. I'll gladly devote 40 hours a week to BIP production endeavours. Until then, I squeeze in what I can.
Well, at least you, LMNO, Cram etc can actually work on a computer.
I was in manual labour hell. I got home and all I wanted to do was eat and sleep. Right now, I'm catching up on my reading, which may or may not lead to new and interesting ideas and diversions.
Quote from: Payne on September 16, 2007, 07:03:37 PM
One does not simply walk into a BIP wiki account.
I just wanted to aknowledge this awful, awful reference.
:lulz:
I was on a roll that day.
I shame myself, sometimes...
:x
Heh, I actually missed that first time round.
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch on September 18, 2007, 02:03:20 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 17, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
I want to propose an overhaul of the Wiki. Moar later.
Overhaul all you want, the BIP is dead.
And to think we had high hopes of magazines and mass movement.
??
The BIP dead?
hahahah
I'll agree that we exhaustively described the metaphor in its current and several alternate formats
but it's not
dead. Sometimes you've just said all you can about one topic.
Maybe you missed out on the BIP's most recent development, the revised brochure in my sig. Also last I heard, Faust was working on hosting it on principiadiscordia.com in a similar format to the way the PD is hosted there now.
As for the magazine project:I feel our lack of forward progress on that front was related to a lack of writers and coherent structure. We spent so long talking about it we ran out of wind. We couldn't agree on what it was going to be (no surprise there), and few people made forward progress, but no one wanted to throw their backs into a project without a coherent goal at the end.
These things grow and evolve over time. Sometimes they need some space and time to grow like a bacteria culture. For example - after all the Lollercaust talk, that project eventually 'died'. Flash forward in time, and I actually put together about 25-35 pages of material. But with little assistance, I lost the energy to do layout & graphics. So it 'died' again. Right now the material is sitting in the WOMP Holding Tank, and when the energy and inspiration occurs, someone else will pick it up. Then if/when it's released there will be a flurry of activity, the positive energy will carry us to other things, and Lollercaust will have 'died' again.
Well, dead in the way trees are dead in the winter. When the energy and productivity comes back to the forums, I'm sure some of what we were doing with the BIP will come back, but as of now, not much is going on with it. At the least, it's pretty far away from the days of threads getting 6 pages in the space of a few hours, new material being pumped out by the boatload, and planning for rapid expansion. All I can hope for is that at within a few resurrections this stuff will hit a critical mass and all of what we're doing ends up with a way bigger payoff.
troof to all writ.
i have a few things i'm working on right now, mostly they're in fragments.
a few ideas and a concept, some writing (in it's rough, rudementary form.)
basically, i want to write on the angle of conning pinks. "Madgjickque" in place of "O:MF", basically.
i'm using a heavy sleight of hand metaphor in an attempt to describe the process people go through
(perceptual conditioning, or acculturation, etc) in a BIP shift, on the double tier of Self Awareness of the BIP and breaking out of it, as well as altering other peoples' BIP (i don't know what the consensus is, but advertising strongly suggests this is possible to me.)
example:
imagine you get home from work, unlock your deadbolt, unlock your doorknob, walk in, close the door, sit down on the couch and toss your jacket over the arm of the couch.
you lay back, enjoying this moment of tranquility and reprieve after a tiresome day at the job. then you notice a note on your coffee table that no one could have left there, nothing else in your appartment was touched, etc...and the note just says "hey."
i'm trying to describe the process a person can go through to achieve that effect in another person.
[edit]
also, i just started school for the fall, so it'll be slowish to hammer it out with three research papers coming, several small essays and too much unnecessary reading.
but the rigor squeezes out drops of creativity i didn't know were there.
Sounds interesting.
Also, stage magic may be worth looking into as something to help aid that. I only really can do minor sleight of hand and card tricks, but with the right props and audience you can sometimes get worthwhile results (I'm more a theatre person than magician, really. Just sometimes you have a crossover in skills). In fact, we could really do with a talented stage magician on the boards - illusion and misdirection are key components in a good mindfuck. Not necessary ones, but useful nonetheless.
I call it Psychic Kung Fu.
there's an example in Illuminatus:
QuoteDrake stared at the plan and shook his head. "Some people will recognize what a pentagon means," he said dubiously.
"They will be dismissed as superstitious cranks. Believe me, this building will be constructed within a few years. It will become the policeman of the world. Nobody will dare question its actions or judgments without being denounced as a traitor. Within thirty years, Mr. Drake, within thirty years, anyone who attempts to restore power to the Congress will be cursed and vilified, not by liberals but by conservatives."
"Holy God," Drake said.
The Grand Master rose and walked to an old-fashioned globe nearly as large as King Kong's head. "Pick a spot, Mr. Drake. Any spot. I guarantee you we will have American troops there within thirty years. The Empire that you dreamed of while reading Tacitus."
Robert Putney Drake felt humbled for an instant, even though he recognized the gimmick: using one single example of telepathy, plucking Tacitus out of his head, to climax the presentation of the incredible dream. At last he understood firsthand the awe that the Illuminati created in both its servitors and its enemies.
Quote from: Cain on September 20, 2007, 12:32:13 PM
Sounds interesting.
Also, stage magic may be worth looking into as something to help aid that. I only really can do minor sleight of hand and card tricks, but with the right props and audience you can sometimes get worthwhile results (I'm more a theatre person than magician, really. Just sometimes you have a crossover in skills). In fact, we could really do with a talented stage magician on the boards - illusion and misdirection are key components in a good mindfuck. Not necessary ones, but useful nonetheless.
This also seems related to the "two man con" in
American Gods.
i'm don't do stage type magicianry or "conjuring" "illusionism"-
but really, it's the same principals that you use in effective sleight of hand.
which, when extrapolated into a flexible metaphor, becomes a really good
instrument of thought for deceiving others- or as i like to do, deceive them, and then show them how i did it so they might think a little next time.
here's a snippet, you might like: (it's part of the metaphor i'm working on as a whole)
i divide the whole process into three parts (likened to the traditional "Godhead"- creation, sustenance and destruction...) and rename them "White Power" "Black Magic" and "Grey Matter."
in one basic aspect, Black Magic is "Magic That Works," and represents the creative aspect. it consists largely of tricks of misdirection and subterfuge, the mechanics of re-representing reality in a specific manner. such things include NLP, convincing use of fallacy, manual manipulations (i.e. when enough people flood Wiki articles to start convincing people, etc...) there's a specific sub-category i call the "Dark Art of Zen Sales"- it's basically a crash-course on reading people, "pacing" them (google if you're unfamiliar) and the like- intended for field work where agents of whatever it is we are can jujitsu minds.
White Power is a combination of Colors in a proportion that is balanced and un-refracted (you cannot distinguish one band from another...) it's a metaphor for the aspects one has to account for to pull it all together, and represents the destructive aspect. in short: you don't preform effective magic by just doing a trick, you mix and match techniques by assessing the areas vulnerable to deception and start chipping away...
grey matter is basically YUO. i.e. the ego that is YOURS. it must be maintained. it must be cultivated. it must be (generally or specifically) educated and more things in order to function at top-notch. it is also the synthesis of White Power and Black Magic on it's own, whether you practice white power/black magic or not. Grey Matter is your BIP, and represents the sustain principal. ---> your BIP/EGO is, consciously or unconsciously, an anomaly that occurs between the polarity of your personal tools (black magic) and how you use them (white power.)
still banging the text.
You might want to rethink the term "white power".
Just saying.
I like where you're going, Prater.
Quote from: LMNO on September 21, 2007, 02:02:49 PM
You might want to rethink the term "white power".
i have to admit, it kinda distracted me as well from the actual message of the post.
but apart from that, good stuff
White flour? Wife power?
If you want to rip off Lou Reed, you can call it "White Light/White Heat".
it's very intentionally White Power.
it targets a symbolic aspect that's supposed to get under peoples skin.
don't act like lollercaust isn't the same allusion.
if you want to go that way, you should call it white flour.
White Flower?
i prefer plant analogies when possible.
Anyway, my plan was to use the BIP Wiki for mindfucks and jakes as well, as these are illustrative in showing a person their situation, as well as being a way to pass a boring afternoon.
Not only will it be more useful than digging through O:MF forum for ideas all the time, it would likely inspire new tricks and mindfucks, especially if we added some from other sites (Improv Everywhere has stuff we could use), and added variations on themes. Propaganda could be posted there too. That way, O:MF becomes the forum for ongoing stuff, while the BIP Wiki records what is successful and what works.
I fully support this. Especially as we already have a piece on the Wiki about "Excercises" to keep people fresh and on their toes in their cells. I think this could work quite nicely.
however i applaud the idea, because i think it could work,
there is one tiny little warning.
somewhere in the deep dungeons of poee.co.uk (i think) there is some ancient wiki-like (everybody can edit) collection of texts (mostly of the 23PINEALFNORD variety) that nobody ever dares to go near to because it is such a horrible mess of unordered shit that really needs a good weeding out (cause there's also good stuff) but the randomness is too demotivating to get started at it, i think.
of course, current day wiki software is much better at maintaining, ordering, searching and keeping things a bit tidy (even semi-random stuff like uncyclopedia or ED are reasonably well structured), so it'll probably work out fine.
I thought that was www.discordianism.com ?
Sides, Cainad is tight with them. I'm sure we could flood out their bad stuff with our good (and vice versa)
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2007, 11:19:30 PM
I thought that was www.discordianism.com ?
Sides, Cainad is tight with them. I'm sure we could flood out their bad stuff with our good (and vice versa)
Lol. The wiki there doesn't seem to exist anymore, and the last post was ages ago. The most entertaining things on there now are Idem's four or so posts that all say "What" or some variation thereof.
What happened to the wiki?
It's still there. Make sure you use www.blackironprison.com
POEE is undergoing some maintenance currently so you can't access it through the main page.
I meant the wiki at Discoridanism.com
pfft!!! details, details.
/
:argh!:
It's ok RWHN, we know you're a 'Big Picture' man. Let us handle the details.
Yeah, can someone get me a big pitcher of Root Beer. I'm thirsty.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on September 25, 2007, 01:58:06 PM
What happened to the wiki?
Please to be attempting to use the following linkification device: www.discordianism.com/wiki (http://www.discordianism.com/wiki)
All your redirects are belong to the server! :lulz:
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 24, 2007, 02:42:33 PM
I fully support this. Especially as we already have a piece on the Wiki about "Excercises" to keep people fresh and on their toes in their cells. I think this could work quite nicely.
if someone is capable of finding/making an ebook of "Astonish Yourself!" by Roger-Pol Droit,
that should be included. it's some french guy. there's 101 "practical mind experiments" in the
book, designed similarly to RAW's exercises in Prometheus Rising (i know the prevalent disdain for RAW, but
shit, Prometheus Rising is a lot more useful than anything we've come up with
so far).
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on September 18, 2007, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch on September 18, 2007, 02:03:20 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 17, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
I want to propose an overhaul of the Wiki. Moar later.
Overhaul all you want, the BIP is dead.
And to think we had high hopes of magazines and mass movement.
??
The BIP dead?
hahahah
I'll agree that we exhaustively described the metaphor in its current and several alternate formats
but it's not dead. Sometimes you've just said all you can about one topic.
Maybe you missed out on the BIP's most recent development, the revised brochure in my sig. Also last I heard, Faust was working on hosting it on principiadiscordia.com in a similar format to the way the PD is hosted there now.
As for the magazine project:
I feel our lack of forward progress on that front was related to a lack of writers and coherent structure. We spent so long talking about it we ran out of wind. We couldn't agree on what it was going to be (no surprise there), and few people made forward progress, but no one wanted to throw their backs into a project without a coherent goal at the end.
These things grow and evolve over time. Sometimes they need some space and time to grow like a bacteria culture. For example - after all the Lollercaust talk, that project eventually 'died'. Flash forward in time, and I actually put together about 25-35 pages of material. But with little assistance, I lost the energy to do layout & graphics. So it 'died' again. Right now the material is sitting in the WOMP Holding Tank, and when the energy and inspiration occurs, someone else will pick it up. Then if/when it's released there will be a flurry of activity, the positive energy will carry us to other things, and Lollercaust will have 'died' again.
just saw this, yeah I am slowly working away at making the bip into a html document, but am having some trouble with image transparency when setting them behind sections the text.
heres whats done so far:
http://principiadiscordia.com/bip/1.php I am up to page 12 or something.
Quote from: Prater Festwo on September 27, 2007, 08:37:00 PMRAW's exercises in Prometheus Rising (i know the prevalent disdain for RAW, but
shit, Prometheus Rising is a lot more useful than anything we've come up with so far).
(sorry for this offtopic rant but bleah)
i'm having two of my friends read that book now
they're having an INCREDIBLY hard suspending their disbelief long enough to even grasp a small part of the value RAW is trying to bring.
you wouldn't expect it, because you're so familiar with the subject, but the book is quite difficult for those who don't have an idea what he's going to talk about. you need a LOT of goodwill to swallow all the bullshit.
- all references to whatever has to do with "quantum" are simply wrong (yes, all of them, quantum was a
very young field when RAW wrote about it), and because these two friends are physicists, this pretty much fills them with
rage about the pseudoscientific bullshit. (especially when RAW confuses the story by talking about "quantum jumps" in evolution which is an entirely different meaning of the word quantum)
- for any mind that is trained in critical thinking (against religion, advertising, anything that tried to sell anything through false arguments), alarm bells will continously go off while reading the book. the forms of reasoning RAW uses in the book are very similar to those used by populist politicians, pseudoscience and snakeoil sellers. for example, chapter 1, "what the thinker thinks the prover proves" uses some kind of double-bind technique to get the unbelieving scientific mind into it ("This refers not to you but only to those benighted fools in the opposite camp who refuse to recognize that your theory is the only reasonable one. Of course.")
you won't get away with that kind of reasoning with
anyone who has tried a decent stab at disproving pascal's wager (for example)
if you wanna chase away smart people, this is the way to go about it. of course, as someone pointed out before, just like Illuminatus, RAW filled the book with brainwashing tricks. but some of them are so transparent.
it's the constant bombardment with advertisements and propaganda. whereas cabbages might build up a thick skin against this kind of stuff (or their heads would splody), others have developed little alarm bells in their head that ring whenever some dipshit tried this bull on you and simply avoid whatever they have to say.
anybody else recognize that feeling? you read something, and you just "feel" part of the text is just there to convince you instead of simply presenting you the information you want to hear. i deconstruct (and disarm) nearly every ad that comes my way like that.
and then, i hold my heart for when they reach the chapters about the 7th and 8th circuit .. while a nice idea, those things need a LOT of refinement because now they're just vague sketches of .. something. "DNA consciousness"? "Quantum consciousness"? .. sorry.
by the way, just a disclaimer, i loved the book, read it in one go and enjoyed most of it very much :-) but that's just because i knew what i was looking for, and RAWs explanation of the 8 circuits was already quite a lot better than the bullshit i had read about it so far ;-)
It best when you don't give them the book and say, "this has answers!" but instead if you say, "check out some of the ideas this guy has. Writing style is kind ahack-ish, but there's a few good point in there," it might go better.
RAW himself does warn against taking his work too seriously or too literally.
I do think the underlying intent is not to show us how the mind really works, so much as to provoke critical thought about it. I know - that's a pretty cheap trick to justify being way off base or just plain wrong.
And though I lurved Prometheus Rising, the chapters about the higher circuits are pretty sketchy. Like, Quantum Consciousness? Really?? :fnord:
Yeah. I was thinking, "says who? you cite sources up the wazoo for the first 5 circuits, and then... nothing."
yes, these are precisely my concerns about the book, but in each case it offers actionable experiments for you to try and decide on yourself.
usually, i would be pretty weary of this thought, but i considered the experiments before i tried them. i don't think there is much to substantiate these things as of yet, but they seem pretty conceivable to me. (if not entirely predictable, or rational to us.) i like to think that as life is developing and unfolding, it takes time to look at it's options for the relatively near future (selective...but then, i feel that DNA is an independent life-form).
but as far as realizing yourself as an "8th-circuit" consciousness, as it is described, seems a bit off.
not un-possible, but off. i've had what he calls "non-local" experiences, but it's not what he presents.
and he always warns, of course, he's using ontological jujitsu.
as for it being a hard book to swallow for the skeptic, well, yeah. it's always easy to agree up to the fourth circuit. it's even relatively easy to buy into the 5th circuit, particularly with alot of research that's been done on the mind's capabilities. and really, i highly recommend it to people with all of these considerations stated. when it comes to propagation of propaganda, you have to be viscious and narrow. but spreading self-tools: those need a warning label.
specifically for the "thinker/prover" metaphor- i have a hard time understanding why people lack the ability to consider that their perception might be self-affirming, so it doesn't seem outlandish to me. but i get why someone who hasn't considered that would be very put off, especially if it only presents itself after puberty.
It's all crap.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2007, 03:29:21 AM
It's all crap.
Yeah, but... so is pretty much everything else that's been penned by monkeys, right?
Quote from: Lysergic on September 30, 2007, 03:41:20 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2007, 03:29:21 AM
It's all crap.
Yeah, but... so is pretty much everything else that's been penned by monkeys, right?
WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF RALPH WALDO EMERSON.
Quote from: Prater Festwo on September 29, 2007, 06:13:15 AM
yes, these are precisely my concerns about the book, but in each case it offers actionable experiments for you to try and decide on yourself.
The thing is though, that presents the problem that Crowley had, and opens the door for things like Scientology.
Al said that you shouldn't take his word for it, you should do the exercises and note the results... Scientology says, "it must work the way I say because if you do these actions, you get these results."
But, in relation to all the other stuff RAW lays down, if you get yourself into
any headspace heavily enough, you'll have the expected experience, be it Jesus, Satori, being "clear", or feeling the touch of the Noodly Appendage. I mean, that's the whole point of most of RAW's books.
So yeah, if you believe in the 8-circuit model hard enough, you'll have 8-circuit types of experiences.
But so what?
i don't believe in an 8 circuit model.
i don't even feel that the model of circuitry is effective beyond aiding a vague but useful understanding of yourself and others' primary actions and associations.
however, experiments that are presented in any religious tradition, philosophy or Fuck All, are good things to explore in understanding the natures of other peoples' realities.
because when it comes to the kid at burger king (likely), quantum physic terms don't mean shit, they just sound smart and catch in this kids loose head for some reason. see, his reality, i'm sure you'll agree, and we probably would all agree on this one thing the most, his perception of reality, his own subjective experience is vastly different from your own. you are, generally speaking, a skeptic and a critical thinker.
the absence of this detail makes the calculations for physics possible, but it does not encapsulate reality. physics is a vastly useful tool, but it is that: an application.
however, it is precisely this detail that is absent in physics that is a crucial key to communicating effectively, let alone subtly and in subversive ways.
i guess, to sum it: emapthy is a more useful people-tool than physics. the abuse of those terms is likely for an edge over inconsiderate readers and unburdened thinkers.