is it too early to call the recycling / environmental movement a failure?
is separating your garbage into plastic and paper a unnecessary obstacle at this point?
im sayin:
since the early 90s ive been trained to approach trash with a distinguishing eye
and like a good citizen i did it
but
the polar bears are still dying
melting snow
oil running out etc
at what point is it the smart move to abandon these surface / lip service acknowledgements to good 'environmental intent' and instead focus on other things?
also: at a certain point - does it not make good sense to exploit, rape, and exhaust a society that is founded on raping, exploiting and exhausting?
if this way of life is killing the planet - cant we kill that way of life using the same approach?
eat more?
this is probably not what you were going for but I am conjuring an image with an Easter Island motif.
whatever works man
im noticing - even those things that seemed to be 'honorable' dont really work when you are stuck in a cesspool
You certainly have to wonder, when you are engaging in these activities, like you lay out, what impact does it really have? I mean, no doubt that recycling the gazillions of aluminum cans keeps them out of landfills, etc.,
But then you wonder about the larger impact. the impact on the larger system. It probably feels really good to some to recycle, use compost, make houses out of mud and tires, etc., and that's good for that individual. But, then when you go macro, what does it mean?
We have lots of individuals performing lots of individual acts, and some joint but probably not that many in the grand scheme of things.
I've wondered, if in the end, it will be the Earth itself, that fixes the Earth.
<tangent>
When I was a young Discordian (like age 15 or 16) I thought it would be a cool mindfuck to disable the crosswalk button. This one particular crosswalk had annoyed me quite a bit - you'd press the button and it would seem to INCREASE the amount of time it took for the pedestrian crossing light to activate. So late at night I went there with a hex driver and took apart the mechanism. LO AND BEHOLD IT WASN'T CONNECTED TO BEGIN WITH. I thought of all those minutes I spent repeatedly pressing that button and waiting for my turn to go.
It was all just a ruse! An illuminati scheme to make you FEEL like you've got control of the situation, but it's just an illusion.
</tangent>
But that's the vibe I got from your post LHX. Like when we spot these illusions and gimmicks, shouldn't we not just ignore them, but trash them?
At the mall where I get lunch there are two trash cans. One for bottles and cans, the other for trash. Very clearly labeled. But when you watch the cleaning staff empty the trash, both bins are emptied into the same receptacle. Why even have the signs?
PS: I like the new sig, LHX. Where's that from?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2007, 09:12:43 PM
I've wondered, if in the end, it will be the Earth itself, that fixes the Earth.
This reminds me of a quote from Flex Mentallo. It's something to the affect of, "It's not the Earth that needs saving, but mankind."
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on October 09, 2007, 09:32:58 PM
It was all just a ruse! An illuminati scheme to make you FEEL like you've got control of the situation, but it's just an illusion.
This also reminds me of a train of thought that kept running through my head. Like you, LHX, I've been wondering what the purpose of recycling is. I mean, sure, it looks and feels good if you think it's actually doing anything, but are you really? It seems like when it comes down to it, recycling seems like a diversion to make us feel good about ourselves. To make us think we're doing something in face of the massive declining state of the world.
Are we actually doing something? :sad:
But here's a counter to this. What if the illusion is not the recycling, but the adverse affects of our presence? All this weird stuff is actually normal, and we're just creating it/explaining it away with our own sins? We're the one's who are fucked, because we're caught in the loop of feeding new industries that are simply making money off selling our garbage back to us? "Would you like some extra poo with that?" Guess what I'm trying to ask is, is it real? If it is real, then are we actually doing anything about it? Or is it hype, and we're simply scaring ourselves in certain directions. Reasons and directions? I dunno, I'm just sayin'.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on October 09, 2007, 09:32:58 PM
PS: I like the new sig, LHX. Where's that from?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Theholocaust.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Sky_Black_Death_presents:_The_Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Sky_Black_Death_presents:_The_Holocaust)
i think track 8 or 9
Is it enough to do as you're asked, if you believe in your cause?
That seems like the important question.
unless your causes asks you to do more than youre asked
That's the thing I'm getting at. If it matters at all, then intelligence and initiative and hard work should be applied.
in my city we used to separate our trash in organic and non-organic trash. i was raised to pay attention to this.
at a certain point they stopped separating the stuff, i was a bit dissapointed because it felt so good, "doing my part" and all.
later, i heard that having two separate transportation chains for the trash actually cost more energy because the garbage-processing facility got a lot more efficient at separating or processing the garbage and stuff.
dunno how far this is true (instead of just told me to feel better), but simply burning the garbage for energy isn't that bad of a solution when you add up all the factors.
First off, LHX, recycling isn't really linked to global warming.
it's linked to the humongous amounts of garbage we create.
All environmental problems are not the same.
Secondly, as far as "does it not make good sense to exploit, rape, and exhaust a society that is founded on raping, exploiting and exhausting," keep in mind:
You are part of that culture, too.
I, for one, don't want to increase the amount I'm being fucked, on the possible chance it doesn't collapse as planned.
i dont want to increase it either
im just saying maybe its unavoidable
LIFE: Prepared to be fucked in the ass!
I think the problem with recycling is similar to the problem of voting.
As individuals, it probably doesn't matter whether or not we recycle. But it's totally important that we, as a group, do it.
so we're stuck. The socially responsible thing to do, in both cases, is something in which we cannot perceive the effect of our effort.
I grew up in a small town where everyone had "nature" at the top of their list of Important Things. We did recycling my whole life, except for paper/cardboard... that got used in the fireplace and woodburner for heat.
I was really shocked when I watched the "Bullshit" episode on the subject of recycling. Important note: I think Penn and Teller provide Bullshit to counter existing Bullshit and thus their show should be considered Bullshit, but as the PD says "Bullshit makes the flowers grow, and that's beautiful."
Anyway, some interesting points from that show:
Glass and Aluminum are the only products that we can currently recycle at a flat or positive gain in energy use. Paper, plastic, etc etc are not cost effective and often "recycle bins" for these end up in the landfill with the rest of the garbage that we separated it from.
The current projections on landfills indicate that a single landfill (some distance, I think 10 miles square) would cover all of the needs of the US for the next (insert some very long period of time that I can't recall... 1000 years or something).
Now, my opinion is that Penn and Teller exaggerate their position for ratings and because the name of the show is Bullshit! So I think that the truth (What is truth?) exists probably somewhere between "recycling will save the world" and "recycling is Bullshit!"
I still recycle cans, glass and cardboard because there are dumpsters right near my house and it makes less trash that I have to jam into my "one size must fit all" trash can that we get assigned to us by the city. However, I have abandoned that it necessarily does much more than make me feel good and makes someone cash for that aluminum.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on October 10, 2007, 07:20:37 PM
I think the problem with recycling is similar to the problem of voting.
As individuals, it probably doesn't matter whether or not we recycle. But it's totally important that we, as a group, do it.
so we're stuck. The socially responsible thing to do, in both cases, is something in which we cannot perceive the effect of our effort.
I guess this is where you hope to change enough cogs to have some over-arching effect on the larger social mechanism.