Enlightenment can be a tough road.
Having an open mind does not mean an open highway bereft of tribulation and conflict. Indeed, so it would seem, it can increase both of those.
The knowledge and understanding of how limitations can choke. But yet, when others do not share or recognize this, one's societal world, one's social circles, can quickly become very limited. Or at the very least, strained.
This has become apparent to me as a parent. Watching my little girl, eager and wide-eyed with the world. A thirst to experience all that she can experience. No shame in sillyness. No inhibitions for idiosyncracies. Yet, when amidst others of her age, who have already begun to develop their blinders, it can be painful to watch. Because I remember what it was like, to be just a little different then all of the other straight and narrows. I remember the giggles. I remember the pointing. Being comfortable with myself, yet lonely as others decide that they are not.
And so I see it beginning with my little one, before she has even entered the public school system. To be sure, kids still like her, and play with her. To be sure, she still enjoys that which is deemed normal and traditional for a kid her age, and of her gender. And to be sure, I can see in her playmates the happy anarchy of childhood innocence is still there, and viable. But I can also see where they are being introduced and indoctrinated to the typical paths that so many others unquestioningly navigate. The hard and fast rules of what boys do and what girls do. The mantras of how to properly experience the universe we are in.
And so the tricky part comes. How to maintain integration without fostering isolation. How to cherish and champion individuality, and at the same time, teach companionship and comradery. To impart that though others may not jive with parts of the personality that their friendship is still valuable and vital.
It's an odd thing. We are invariably social creatures. It is undeniable that at some level we all want to belong to something. To be a part of a collective of characters. At the same time, there are parts of our identity that will cause clashes, and sometimes, with those we most want to be friends with, or partners with, or lovers with. As an adult this is easy to understand and rationalize, and so too with time will it become obvious to my little one and others like her who are growing up now.
In the meantime, I make it my duty to keep that which may dull to not lessen her shine.
I know exactly how you feel. My neice is going to be seven in March and each year she goes through school I see the Machine doing its work. The desire to 'be like other kids' is very strong in children. I didn't have it, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view . . . it sounds like your daughter won't have it either: it usually starts pretty early.
background story:
Today is show and share day at preschool. They get to bring in a toy or something to share with the rest of the class. Well, I have this really old Batmobile that was mine when I was a kid. I also have a Flash action figure from the same time. My daughter really likes playing with them so she took them to school today. Immediately, upon arrival a little blonde girl runs up to her and says "Ew, you brought a boys toy." Then after she goes in the room a little boy comes up to her and says "Why did you bring a boys toy?"
I know this comes from parents and family these kids are surrounded by. Just like the fact my daughter doesn't see a delineation between what boys should play with and what girls should play with comes from my wife and I. We don't discourage her or really say anything. If it brings her joy (and it isn't going to kill or maim her) we let her do it. And I know that parents don't instill these kind of stereotypes maliciously. They are just doing what they know, which really makes it even more insidious. My daughter loves playing with these kids and they love playing with her. It's just hard to see those moments where they aren't jiving because they aren't thinking the same way.
Ug.
I find that kids are very open-minded until they think they learn something, and thus "know" it . . . then they are as regimented as your average dullard adult.
I have this issue with my own daughter. Being the youngest and having two very athletic older brothers she has grown up playing every sport right along side of her brothers. She has played soccer on a team for the last 3 years, however, this year she wanted to play football. She watched the boys on my youngest sons team (this was their first year of contact) run crying every time they got hit and her opinion was what a bunch of pansies. (She did put it a bit more ummmm, well, she's 8. ) I was ok with her playing if she really wanted to, but they wouldn't let her. Said it was too rough. They suggested she become a cheerleader (which she did but just because the uniform was cute, her words not mine) instead of a football player.
She ended up being asked to be a part of a competition cheer squad and loves it, but....
Would it have killed anyone to let her play ball?
This is why I plan to be the pariah of the PTA when I'm older.
Quote from: Khara on February 08, 2008, 03:08:42 PMI have this issue with my own daughter. Being the youngest and having two very athletic older brothers she has grown up playing every sport right along side of her brothers. She has played soccer on a team for the last 3 years, however, this year she wanted to play football. She watched the boys on my youngest sons team (this was their first year of contact) run crying every time they got hit and her opinion was what a bunch of pansies. (She did put it a bit more ummmm, well, she's 8. ) I was ok with her playing if she really wanted to, but they wouldn't let her. Said it was too rough. They suggested she become a cheerleader (which she did but just because the uniform was cute, her words not mine) instead of a football player.
She ended up being asked to be a part of a competition cheer squad and loves it, but....
Would it have killed anyone to let her play ball?
don't you have girls football teams over there?
I've seen similar situations develop with my oldest daughter; it's been less of an issue with my younger two because the boy is some kind of natural charismatic freak so everything he does, other kids think it's "cool", and my littlest is autistic or something and could give a crap what other kids think.
The oldest girl, though, has definitely suffered a little from being "weird" and not on the same wavelength with the other kids. The lucky thing, for us, is that we live in Portland, which has a really strong diversity ethic built into the local culture, and I think partly as a result of that she is more accepted than she would have been in many other areas. She's also got the benefit of being a regular kid in a school which also houses the city's only school for genius kids, which means that although she's a nerd and a freak by most standards, she's by default not as much of a nerd and a freak as the Access kids, which all the other regular kids are used to.
Those mitigating circumstances aside, I've noticed that as she's gotten older, the difficulty of being the "weird kid" has gotten much easier on her. She has embraced her identity, and because at home being an independent thinker is encouraged and celebrated as coolness, she is proud of being the weird kid at school. She's made friends with the other weird nerd kids, so she has her little bunch she hangs out with, and other kids seem to respect her, even when they don't like her. She's got a string sense of self and has always been a champion of the outcast, and won't hesitate to stand up for other kids if she thinks they're at a disadvantage, so rather than getting picked on for being different, she's assembled her own little clan of freaks and geeks, and the bullies and assholes seem to pretty much leave her alone.
Based on the completely anecdotal evidence of my own kid, I think that the outlook is good for your kids, because if their quirkiness is embraced and reinforced at home, they will have a strong sense of self and pride, and the social stigma of being different at school will roll off them as they grow up.
Yuo=good parent
Quote from: Dr. Felix Mackay on February 08, 2008, 10:59:04 PM
Yuo=good parent
Yeah, when she's not drunkenly raping pangolins.
Really, I'm not surprised Nigel's big one is brainy and already forming a cabal. That's pretty cool.
In another couple years I'll be able join these discussions from the parent point of view. And in the meantime I'll be listening to help prepare myself for these common issues that come up.
The way I'm starting to look at the individuality versus camaraderie issue is to start with the former and trust that the latter will work itself out. Which essentially is what Nigel was saying if I read her right. And of course I have the luxury of thinking about this conceptually without all the complexities of real life...
SHUT UP, MY MOM DIED FROM DRUNKENLY RAPING PANGOLINS!
But seriously, thanks guys. :)
Quote from: Nigel on February 08, 2008, 08:26:25 PM
Based on the completely anecdotal evidence of my own kid, I think that the outlook is good for your kids, because if their quirkiness is embraced and reinforced at home, they will have a strong sense of self and pride, and the social stigma of being different at school will roll off them as they grow up.
I'm not too worried about my daughter. I grew up in a tiny, tiny speck-on-the-map town in Northern Maine. If you aren't the typical redneck, potato-farmer wannabe, or potato-farmer's wife-in-training, you are quickly ostracized. I managed to get through it fairly unscathed. Where we live now is a little more diverse, but she does seem to have a strong sense of pride and confidence in herself, and I think my wife and I just letting her be her and reassuring her helps. But she is fairly headstrong as well. That's what I concern myself with the most. That she will shun friendships because they don't understand certain aspects of her personality. Like sometimes she'll say someone isn't her friend anymore because they had a disagreement about something. So we just remind her that not everyone is alike and just because you don't agree on something doesn't mean you can't still be friends.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 11, 2008, 02:31:28 PMLike sometimes she'll say someone isn't her friend anymore because they had a disagreement about something.
i have found that this is something certain women can do, with their best friends, and switch like three times a week. (works best if they're three girls, they can create all kinds of combinations of like-not-like relations in only a group of 3)
i found it's best to just ignore it, oh yeah, and listen and be understanding, instead of trying to solve anything.
your kid is just about 10 years early with doing this, that's all.
Yeah, and it can't be all that bad because this morning she asks me if we could invite these same friends over to our house. So I have a feeling this upcoming weekend is going to be girl central at the WHN compound. I'm glad I have a space heater in the basement.
Quote from: triple zero on February 08, 2008, 08:09:50 PM
Quote from: Khara on February 08, 2008, 03:08:42 PMI have this issue with my own daughter. Being the youngest and having two very athletic older brothers she has grown up playing every sport right along side of her brothers. She has played soccer on a team for the last 3 years, however, this year she wanted to play football. She watched the boys on my youngest sons team (this was their first year of contact) run crying every time they got hit and her opinion was what a bunch of pansies. (She did put it a bit more ummmm, well, she's 8. ) I was ok with her playing if she really wanted to, but they wouldn't let her. Said it was too rough. They suggested she become a cheerleader (which she did but just because the uniform was cute, her words not mine) instead of a football player.
She ended up being asked to be a part of a competition cheer squad and loves it, but....
Would it have killed anyone to let her play ball?
don't you have girls football teams over there?
There are a few (very very few) girls who play on their parks and rec teams or school teams, they are rarely allowed to play. However, every girl I have seen here who plays footbal is really large. That was their issue with my daughter, she's just a little thing. But no we do not have girl's football teams here that I know of.
but the small ones are the meanest ;-)
That's what I always say.
Having watched her kick her brother's asses more than once, I would have to agree. She takes mean, spiteful and revenge to a whole new level.
:lulz:
000, I hope you are remembering the difference between football for the rest of the world vs. football for Americans. For some reason in the US (*cough*CHAUVINISM*cough*) women are stymgatised as butch or frail, and American football is verboten to both. *shrug*
It's been the subject of many a primetime made-for-TV movie of the week.
I'm not surprised at all by the responses of the fellow parents here...makes sense the byline would be "give your kid enough trust in him/herself to be him/herself"...as it should be. It's tough sometimes with public school to walk that balance between making sure your kid isn't crushed daily by the assholes of the world and shoring them up to be ready to take on anything and everything.
We embrace diversity so much in this house that my kids are thankfully colorblind and religiously ignorant. But I know there will come a day when they will pick up stuff from school, come home with it, and I will have to correct their "vision." Living what you believe in this type of situation is truly the best way to go. I HATED the hypocrisy my parents displayed at every turn. The worst of it was, they were total hypocrites and DENIED it. If I'm stupid enough to be a hypocrite, I hope when my kids call me on it, I will just cop to it and have done with it.
Good on you, all you parents ITT, for recognizing that giving kids strength doesn't weaken you as a parent (something my parents STILL don't get, somehow). I think having grown up "different" ourselves as kids, I think it somehow became important to let our kids embrace and power through those differences and the difficulties they may have socially because of them. It's a tough thing to watch, though, I'll tell you that. When I see my youngest (7 years) dealing with it, I want to kick some elementary school ass.
But then I remember that there are always going to be battles ahead, and it's better he learn NOW how to deal with assholes than to become an hero over them later.
Fuck, the thing about football in the US is that it's a narsty brutal sport and even my dad, green beret Special Forces Airborne with over 100 confirmed kills, commander of the AJ Baker Ranger Base, who was inducted into the Oregon Military Hall of Fame, and pulled back into active duty training troops in 2006 due to sheer badassness, uses his Ninja Mind Skillz to forbid his offspring and offspring of offspring to engage in it. He fears that they will become retarded or have teeth knocked out if they play football.
It's not like Daddy's a sexist; he taught (tried to teach) me to kill with my bare hands, taught me to shoot all sorts of weapons, encouraged me to join the military, and my sister's a Marine. It's just that he believes that playing that game is a Bad Idea.