Time to release the hostage?
I'm a big fan of rearranging the furniture in my house. I love to put familiar things in unfamiliar places. It always seem to make everything seem at the same time less and more.
I would also probably be the nightmare of a proponant of Feng Shui.
I had occasion to think about some old concepts, Hodge and Podge in particular, but it doesn't really matter what the concepts were. I've found that, even though I believe I know what they mean, I don't have as much time for them because they haven't evolved much since they were first committed to paper. In fact this is probably the reason why I stuck around PD when I came. The BIP as an evolution and re-evaluation of the PD intrigued me, and the added emphasis on ALL aspects of "humanity" as displayed by some of PD's members. This Discordia isn't a love in, or head in the clouds bullshit.
In the process of considering what it is about these older concepts that makes me, I don't know... Uncomfortable? I thought about the BIP metaphor again, and I keep getting the nagging feling that although this is a concept that promotes change, it doesn't in fact change much itself.
You can change your cell, but the prison always seems to remain the same.
Now I understand that this solid, stable metaphor is neccesary for a communicable metaphor, one which you can pass to people unconected with Discordianism and reasonably expect them to understand, it does leave you at kind of a dead end afterwards. It invites the question "What next?". Of course the answer is to continue changing your cell, but can we change the prison? is that the next next step?
I tried to look into some of these ideas with "Paths" and "Shrapnel" with inconclusive results. I still feel I (we?) are missing a crucial evolutionary aspect in the BIP, one with which we can describe or even predict how and why the prison must change over time. (I tried to "expand/contract" it with "paths" "add on/subtract from" with "shrapnel", in earlier notes I had) I wasn't sure what my few conclusions meant. I'm guessing neither did you, or at least little has been said about it.
Here are some questions I thought of while writing the notes for this: Is the BIP capable of programming itself, in much the same way our cells programme themselves (through us). Does it really matter if it does or not?
Are these questions only interesting to me because of my dislike of static oncepts and my propensity for rearranging the furniture?
Do i have too much time on my hands, or is it time to release the hostage?
Hmmm -- I think with a careful arrangement of bars, you change your Black Iron Prison into a Golden Sphere of Possibility.
Since it's a personal transition, you don't need to work in small little bites, like you do when trying to alter the MachineTM. You can make radical personal changes and- perhaps - not just spruce up your cell, but realize that it's actually a not-so-bad room in a mansion.
But thats still basically the same thing.
I'm not suggesting we break free of the prison. I'm only suggesting that an evolutionary aspect in the concept as a whole. might be a good thing.
The PD in the '60s was a good concept for the time. It has been refined and changed and evolved to the BIP, which is good today. Where do we go next?
The BIP is not definitive, I feel, and none of these concepts ever really can be, but an evolution of the concept can't be a bad thing, can it?
Here are some more thoughts I'm bouncing around.
if we forget for a moment that you can change your cell/room or whatever, and consider that the unbreakoutable element of the BIP has been inherent since the PD, then you can consider that the prison itself is evolving. Kinda like the prison is a house boat and the river is time. Where is the prison going next? what will the next evolution be? how can we affect it's evolution ourselves, to our advantage?
I think you bring up a good point. Even as new as I am here and to the BIP metaphor, now that you mention it I think I've had this nagging feeling as well, that more change and movement is necessary.
I wasn't here to witness it, but I take it the BIP pamphlet was first written following a rapid kind of Renaissance, a short period of time in which many new thoughts surfaced on these boards. I take it a similar thing happened around the time when Cram produced the second version of the pamphlet.
And I get the feeling we may be heading into another short Reneissance. Then again, I may just be filtering things through my personal feeling of rapid change, which is directly affected by my "discovery" of BIP and the PD.com boards.
This is one of those places that the Five Seasons metaphor is incredibly useful. I think what you're expressing, Payne, is the frustration of Bureaucracy. And I think I share that frustration, even if I have no right to (cause what have I even done so far for Change?)
That last post highlights a symptom of Bureaucracy. Taking the BIP metaphor and and turning it into a house boat sounds a bit like you're stretching a metaphor you love a bit too far.
I have no new thoughts to give right now, and I have a busy day ahead of me, but I'll meditate on this.
Okay, I have a new metaphor in mind (it involves flies, shit, honey and amoebas). Need to write out a parable to illustrate it, so it will be up this evening (i.e, in about five hours).
Quote from: Payne on March 14, 2008, 01:48:35 AM
Here are some questions I thought of while writing the notes for this: Is the BIP capable of programming itself, in much the same way our cells programme themselves (through us). Does it really matter if it does or not?
I would say we could never really tell. But it may have to do with how I view BIP from a macro point of view. I guess I tend to think of the Prison in similar terms to how Hill/Thornley talk about Reality in the PD, specifically the part about Reality Grids. Also, I think of Prison cells in terms of aesthetics and visualisation. I don't think of it as literal freedom-impairing imprisonment, but that they are our metaphysical surroundings. Using prison cells as the image is handy because of the bars.
Anyhoo, so from my perspective I don't think you can answer that question, because in my perspective the Prison is Reality, the Cells are kind of like our Reality Grid. We can change them, move them, expand them, but we can never make them so large that they map out the whole Prison. We simply don't have enough input, nor do we have the capability to process and plot out all of that input.
QuoteAre these questions only interesting to me because of my dislike of static oncepts and my propensity for rearranging the furniture?
Nah, I think it shows a desire to see more and understand more of the picture and one I share. I think it to be a sad state of affairs when someone leaves their ability and desire to wonder about what's going on with their pencils and crayons in school.
Quote from: Payne on March 14, 2008, 02:07:35 AM
But thats still basically the same thing.
I'm not suggesting we break free of the prison. I'm only suggesting that an evolutionary aspect in the concept as a whole. might be a good thing.
The PD in the '60s was a good concept for the time. It has been refined and changed and evolved to the BIP, which is good today. Where do we go next?
The BIP is not definitive, I feel, and none of these concepts ever really can be, but an evolution of the concept can't be a bad thing, can it?
This is good, you are jogging my memory and what was going through my head when I proposed the "Shrapnel" idea. I think the BIP sort of lays out the boundaries, not that we can really concretely draw them out on paper. I remember another concept I was working with when I was contemplating "Shrapnel" was Syndemics.
A rough recap, Syndemics is the idea that one thing can affect or play into a multitude of conditions. For example, Thing X has been demonstrated to have a role in ADD, Substance Abuse, Cancer, and Impotence (I'm just making this up so don't read too much into these examples). The idea is that if you change Thing X, you can have an impact on ADD, Substance Abuse, Cancer, and Impotence.
So, maybe, with BIP we've figured out (kind of) the lay of the land. The territory, now it's about looking inward, looking at mechanics. For example, if one could discover a Thing X that impacts Closed Mindedness, Apathy, and Tyranny, then perhaps one could think of ways to address or impact Thing X, and therefore, make impacts on Closed Mindedness, Apathy, and Tyranny. (again just examples)
So with the Shrapnel thing, I talked about how Religion could be one of those pieces of Shrapnel, and how it can impact how one consciously or unconsciously picks their Paths, or how they walk their Paths. And so we find that Religion is something that informs Closed Mindedness, Tyranny, and Policy. Of course, then the trick is, what is there to be done about it? You certainly can't get people to stop being Religious, but can people have a different perspective on how their Religion should impact their broader society, including those who don't share their beliefs?
Ultimately though, one could feel like their pissing into the wind, so all of this is probably just meaningless mental masturbation.
Anyone got a smoke?
Quote from: Payne on March 14, 2008, 01:48:35 AM
Here are some questions I thought of while writing the notes for this: Is the BIP capable of programming itself, in much the same way our cells programme themselves (through us). Does it really matter if it does or not?
If this is the case, which I tend to agree with you here, then is it that the change is so slow and so subtle that you don't realize it has happened until it's major? (Remember I'm a mother so pardon my example) It is like a child you haven't seen in a few months and when you do you are like "Look how much you have grown/changed" yet the parents do not see what you see because they see the child every day. I don't think we notice the gradual evolving around us, it has to be a bit 'in your face, tear it up and start over' for us to see it quickly.
Quote from: Payne on March 14, 2008, 01:48:35 AM
Are these questions only interesting to me because of my dislike of static oncepts and my propensity for rearranging the furniture?
Do i have too much time on my hands, or is it time to release the hostage?
No I don't think it's you, or maybe it's because I rearrange my house many times throughout the year as well. I think there are those of us who do not have the patience, or maybe tolerance to wait for the change, we have to get the ball rolling so to speak.
As for releasing the hostage, well if you know where the door is, why be a hostage at all?
:mittens: You have given me a lot to think on!
I have a big transcript I need to edit and throw up here later, a conversation I had with Eve in IM. Hopefully I'll get that done Before I have to leave for Edinburgh tomorrow.
Also, asa note to Khara: The hostage isn't us, the tostage is the (what I think of) static concept of the BIP.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 14, 2008, 01:44:13 PM
So with the Shrapnel thing, I talked about how Religion could be one of those pieces of Shrapnel, and how it can impact how one consciously or unconsciously picks their Paths, or how they walk their Paths. And so we find that Religion is something that informs Closed Mindedness, Tyranny, and Policy. Of course, then the trick is, what is there to be done about it? You certainly can't get people to stop being Religious, but can people have a different perspective on how their Religion should impact their broader society, including those who don't share their beliefs?
Actually, I think we're already doing what we should be doing, at least on a small scale.
This touches on Vex's idea of meme hacking by "branding" one meme with another.
One of the big thrusts of the Discordian movement is to decrease the
gravity of religion. It helps people think about their beliefs as a joke, and thereby not get weighed down by it. Will it - on some scale - help people from becoming suicide bombers? Probably not. But I bet we've stopped people from condeming each other, and I bet we've helped people understand that your morals and your sense of "I should..." can come from yourself, shmuck, because you're a pope too.
Quote from: Payne on March 14, 2008, 02:01:03 PM
Also, asa note to Khara: The hostage isn't us, the tostage is the (what I think of) static concept of the BIP.
My thoughts on hostage vs prisoner are pretty serious. However, putting it the way you have I see what you are saying and will have to toss it around with my son for a bit before I go there :D
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 14, 2008, 02:05:03 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 14, 2008, 01:44:13 PM
So with the Shrapnel thing, I talked about how Religion could be one of those pieces of Shrapnel, and how it can impact how one consciously or unconsciously picks their Paths, or how they walk their Paths. And so we find that Religion is something that informs Closed Mindedness, Tyranny, and Policy. Of course, then the trick is, what is there to be done about it? You certainly can't get people to stop being Religious, but can people have a different perspective on how their Religion should impact their broader society, including those who don't share their beliefs?
Actually, I think we're already doing what we should be doing, at least on a small scale.
This touches on Vex's idea of meme hacking by "branding" one meme with another.
One of the big thrusts of the Discordian movement is to decrease the gravity of religion. It helps people think about their beliefs as a joke, and thereby not get weighed down by it. Will it - on some scale - help people from becoming suicide bombers? Probably not. But I bet we've stopped people from condeming each other, and I bet we've helped people understand that your morals and your sense of "I should..." can come from yourself, shmuck, because you're a pope too.
I don't doubt it, and really that's all we can expect for change I think, small scale. But I think there are probably other of these Things we can find and look to have some kind of small scale impact on. I need to contemplate on this some more and maybe come up with a list of other Things, and what they may potentially impact.
The Map is not the Territory The Menu is not the Meal and the Model isn't the Thing being modeled.
I think that some people may have read the PD and then think that's as far (or as evolved) as the metaphors have gone. This though, in my experience hasn't been the case. RAW, Carroll, Hine, Alli, Stang etc etc have all been writing books since then and have taken the metaphor in a number of different ways. Herein lies the big conundrum that I find with PD.com sometimes. Sombunal people on here think that the PD is old and crufty and in need of a good remodeling, but they don't appear to want to read the stuff that's been remodeled. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular, mind you. We are a diverse group and we all have our own backgrounds and opinions. (I'm not even saying that you SHOULD read these authors... only that they have been evolving the model).
The PD doesn't appear, in my opinion, as the last word, or a stagnant set of ideas... it appears to me as a beginning. People started at the beginning and then moved forward, mixing the memes they found there with other memes from their own life experiences. Carroll expands the Reality Grid/Tunnel Metaphor to discuss 'magic' and how magic and ritual can be modeled as modifications to our reality tunnel. Phil Hine, takes that same concept and grounds it a bit more in psychology modeling magic as a big metaphor for self-psychotherapy, in order to effect changes in how we perceive the world and modify our reality grid/tunnel/BiP/Whatever. Antero Alli, with his crazy background in art, theater and performance has utilized the "reality grid" and the 8 circuit model to develop a sort of theatrical system designed to manipulate the perceptions of the individual (Paratheatrics). Wilson has written some fantastic essays, books etc all discussing aspects of these models, where they appear to work, where they seem to fail and how he used them and what he perceived that he experienced while using different methods to manipulate these grids, tunnels and circuits.
Even the BiP seems to me as another potential path that has sprung off of the PD as a beginning. Should we call the seed stagnant?
To think that Cosmic Trigger, Reality is What You Can Get Away With, Angel Tech, Book of Atem, Psychonaut, or any of the other books will not (in and of themselves) stagnate and die seems silly. Anytime something is written down, it has become static. However, that doesn't mean that the ideas, the memes or memetic entities are stagnant. When a person reads any of these writings, the memes infect their mind. They mix with other memes and might form new ideas, or maybe clarifications of ideas, or clarifications of models. There's no need, in my opinion to try to stretch one model to be THE NEVER STAGNATING MODEL; that seems like an absurdity to me. Any model shows us a way of looking at/ordering stuff, based on the current levels of knowledge and ignorance about the subject... as we gain new knowledge, we'll probably need new models.
Memes, like genes don't stagnate, because they connect with other memes and form new memetic combinations. Memes in that configuration can then connect to new memes and form other, different memetic combinations. Stagnation, if referencing the PD, seems (in my opinion) only to exist in the minds of people that believe (in the bad sense) what they read in the PD.
Just my thoughts...
Uh, you didn't need the scrolling banner at the top. I'm well aware of those phrases and what they mean (to me at least)
I agree with you to a large extent. I wouldn't say that the BIP is stagnant, only that it is relatively static as an idea.
Maybe an exploration as to why various evolutions of the ideas and concepts in the PD aren't as popular, even though they MAY be more relevent is kind of the tack I'm on.
And how we can look at the BIP to make it apply more to non-discordians.
See: The transcript I'l post later today.
Quote from: Payne on March 14, 2008, 02:32:33 PM
Uh, you didn't need the scrolling banner at the top. I'm well aware of those phrases and what they mean (to me at least)
I didn't figure you needed it, but I liked putting it there.
Quote
I agree with you to a large extent. I wouldn't say that the BIP is stagnant, only that it is relatively static as an idea.
It's a model... models are usually static. That's how they model things. The idea, surely isn't static though, is it? Several of us had a large discussion somewhere recently on just what the BiP 'was' or at least what it was intended to model. If people read the BiP Pamphlet, then the memes will hopefully mix with stuff in their head and continue to grow (just like with the PD).
Quote
Maybe an exploration as to why various evolutions of the ideas and concepts in the PD aren't as popular, even though they MAY be more relevent is kind of the tack I'm on.
Well, I think that depends on the audience, every author I mentioned has had a number of published books, they run workshops and pretty much earn a decent living on those models, so they must be popular with sombunal people. They don't seem as popular here (at least among some people), but I don't know how many of the denizens of PD.com have read any of those expansions of models...
The thing is, models appeal to different people. The BiP doesn't much appeal to me personally, I think because it has such a pessimistic feel to it (IMO). Being born makes you a prisoner, the only way out is death... that's just not as useful to me as the reality tunnel metaphor, which doesn't trap you anywhere, it just says "you have limited perception" without making that a Bad Thing. Prison, usually (at least in my mind) seems like a bad thing. In all honesty, because I have a Christian background, I think the BiP sorta reminds me of the whole "born into sin and you can't escape except through death" sort of thing.
Quote
See: The transcript I'l post later today.
Sounds very interesting :)
1. I agree with models being static.
2. I agree that BIP came in a big rush, with the inevitable ebb
3. I still feel there's something big behind "shrapnel", but I still haven't gittem my mind around it yet.
4. I (personally) moved from BIP to Monkey Mind, linking the two (monkey mind being almost wearing a straightjacket in your cell), and have been playing around with that for a while.
5. The concept of who the Jailor is (self) is also fun to play with.
6. In time, another idea that resonates with the board will arrive because one good thing about PD.com is that it is always looking for the Next Thing.
7. I think the biggest cause of the knee jerk to the Old Skool PD (OSPD) is not that it's no good an no-one ever did anything else with it, it's that the Pinealists act that way.
8. This is a request for more information and links on Paratheatrics, please!
Okay, I'm back but my parable thing needs more work before it's readable and my mind is too mushy for editing right now, so I'll just write out the basic idea:
We are all stuck in a gooey, sticky substance. For as long as we can remembers, this goo has been all we know. It's too sticky for us to ever get out. Even if we manage to get out of it, some of it will stick to us and will never leave us. To some of us it seems the goo is pure and sweet. To some it seems the goo is rancid and ugly. To some it seems the goo is actually a kind of prison, designed to keep us in for ever. To others it seems like a random mess with no rhyme or reason. But what if this goo is some kind of amoeba? An organic organism, not quite sentient but certainly alive, with all the complex chemistry of a living being. The amoebic goo surrounds each of us with our own personal cocoon, tailor-made to fit us. So some of us surround ourselves with rancid, painful goo, and hate every moment of it. But once you realize the goo you live in is the goo you choose to live in, you can start to hack it.
Or here's another thought: maybe your cocoon is made of your own feces. Eat well and your cocoon will be a healthy, snuggly place. Eat junk and you'll be swimming in diarrhea.
The metaphor needs some refinement, and like I said my mind is too mushy right now. It does seem to be a bit of an awkward redressing of the BiP metaphor, but I'm thinking it might be a more useful model than BiP, to realize the prison is itself an organic being, with complicated chemistry that reacts to our choices.
[/laem]
Quote from: st.verbatim on March 14, 2008, 05:54:46 PM
Okay, I'm back but my parable thing needs more work before it's readable and my mind is too mushy for editing right now, so I'll just write out the basic idea:
We are all stuck in a gooey, sticky substance. For as long as we can remembers, this goo has been all we know. It's too sticky for us to ever get out. Even if we manage to get out of it, some of it will stick to us and will never leave us. To some of us it seems the goo is pure and sweet. To some it seems the goo is rancid and ugly. To some it seems the goo is actually a kind of prison, designed to keep us in for ever. To others it seems like a random mess with no rhyme or reason. But what if this goo is some kind of amoeba? An organic organism, not quite sentient but certainly alive, with all the complex chemistry of a living being. The amoebic goo surrounds each of us with our own personal cocoon, tailor-made to fit us. So some of us surround ourselves with rancid, painful goo, and hate every moment of it. But once you realize the goo you live in is the goo you choose to live in, you can start to hack it.
Or here's another thought: maybe your cocoon is made of your own feces. Eat well and your cocoon will be a healthy, snuggly place. Eat junk and you'll be swimming in diarrhea.
The metaphor needs some refinement, and like I said my mind is too mushy right now. It does seem to be a bit of an awkward redressing of the BiP metaphor, but I'm thinking it might be a more useful model than BiP, to realize the prison is itself an organic being, with complicated chemistry that reacts to our choices.
[/laem]
Oh I like where that might be going :)
Quote from: LMNO on March 14, 2008, 04:25:32 PM
8. This is a request for more information and links on Paratheatrics, please!
Paratheatrics, in some sense, can be described as a distillation of religious/spiritual/magical practices, with as much of the supernatural metaphor as possible stripped away. Rather than invoking a godform, the practitioner might invoke the second circuit of an individual in a particular state (the video Orphans of Delirium http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bufz9hw7znw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bufz9hw7znw) shows an example of one such ritual/performance). Antero's book "Towards An Archeology of The Soul" is an in-depth Paratheatrics book, personally I'm torn on the system. On one hand, I think its a little silly, but have experienced altered states playing with the system. On the other hand, I have a friend who has been a performance artist for some time and they system was seemingly perfect for him. He was going through a rough divorce etc. and the system was very useful for him to dig out of the emotional hell he was in. The results might have been the same with Leary's model or Crowley's magick... but since he holds no belief in magick and thinks Leary was a acid headed hippie... this model seems to be useful for him where the others were not.
On the third hand, I liked "Angel Tech" more than "Archeology of the Soul"... but they're two very different models/metaphors/whatthefuckevers from the same guy based on the seeds in the Principia.
Oh... I'm slightly disappointed.
I was thinking they would be more of how to trigger curcuit responses on a large scale (performances, and such).
I remmeber this band back in the 90s... sort of an american Neubauten from SF. Their performances were more like Dionysian rituals. It was awesome. And dangerous. And fun.
[edit: They were called Crash Worship. www.crashworship.net/]
Quote from: LMNO on March 14, 2008, 06:53:25 PM
Oh... I'm slightly disappointed.
I was thinking they would be more of how to trigger curcuit responses on a large scale (performances, and such).
I remmeber this band back in the 90s... sort of an american Neubauten from SF. Their performances were more like Dionysian rituals. It was awesome. And dangerous. And fun.
[edit: They were called Crash Worship. www.crashworship.net/]
Well, there is a consideration for the potential effect on the audience, but Antero seems to think that internalization and action are necessary for major shifts. However, just as a whole coven is affected by being present at a ritual, or a parishioner experiencing a revival, the audiences do seem to have circuits triggered at points. The main focus is personal, but some of the more advanced stuff is aimed at engaging specific circuits in the audience (the end of Archeology of the Soul discusses that some).
Mostly, it made me LOL a lot. :lulz:
Wanna know what the real deal is with the BIP?
There's nothing outside :lulz:
The final scene of Dark City, ITT.
Quote from: SillyCybin on March 14, 2008, 07:26:26 PM
Wanna know what the real deal is with the BIP?
There's nothing outside :lulz:
That should be on the first page of the Lollercaust.