As a Discordian, I often feel it is not only an obligation, but occasionally a duty to undermine, question and, if necessary, personally destroy authoritarian systems of control and coercion. Sometimes I do it out of deep-seated distaste, sometimes out of boredom and sometimes for profit, but that is another debate.
Furthermore, I subscribe very much to the views of the noted child psychologist, Jean Piaget, who considered that socio-cognitive conflict was a critical part of the learning process. While researchers have rushed to note that this does not necessarily mean confrontation or opposition, these are in fact important facets of socio-cognitive conflict. If we wish to learn and evolve, it is only through disagreement and conflict that we can ever hope to mentally improve ourselves.
Therefore, when I see groups who not only approve of creating an authoritarian system that stifles this dissent, but that it hypocritically takes this position under the mantle of some philosophy or religion, I get somewhat annoyed. And when I see groups or individuals giving out advice on how to perpetuate this state of affairs...well, that has to be answered. Especially on the internet, where such advice may be put to immoral use, even if that was not the original intention of the author. Such an article would be, for example, How to Keep Your Coven from Being Destroyed by David Petterson (aka Eran). Under the guise of saving covens from villainous trolls, he gives very sound advice on how to maintain systems of control, and his work has been fairly widely disseminated.
I intend here to critically analyze his arguments, both in order to show this is in fact the case, and to highlight the authoritarian strain that it helps legitimize. A follow-up counter-essay may follow, but for now, this alone will do.
Eran starts off by laying out what he sees as "the problem". Namely that
QuoteWe've all seen Covens fall apart, or larger umbrella organizations torn by internal strife. Sometimes, this is simply part of the natural cycle of creation and dissolution, an outworn group dissolving to make room for new growth. But at other times, a group with much promise can be damaged or destroyed while seemingly still young and healthy.
There are a number of problems here, right off the bat. Firstly, there is the false distinction between a "natural cycle" of strife and the (presumably) unnatural once he dislikes. What counts as natural, and what does not? As you'll find out from the rest of his article, what he means by not natural is that it was an intended outcome, or one that arose from purposefully created strife. However, can we really say that is not natural? Purposefully created strife may be the product of legitimate grievances that can be resolved in no other way. Since humans exist in a state of competition as well as cooperation, any conflict resulting from that must be 'natural', if we are using the most widely accepted definition of the word. A similar vein of thought might conclude that any group that did succumb to internal strife lacked the necessary legitimacy to make it effective anyway. A group with solid foundations and that has not sought to create grievances should be able to deal with a level of internal dissension. If it cannot, there is clearly a crisis of legitimacy going on.
Secondly, his comment about groups that seemed to be young and healthy. Firstly, its an anecdote, which should make anyone suspicious right away. Secondly, how do we know his perceptions are not faulty? A coven may have many problems or structural weaknesses they wish to hide from outsiders, in hope of attracting more members, attaining certain goals, etc etc. Unless one has intimate knowledge of the group in question, how can one come to a conclusion about its actual potential? It seems very...convenient to lay the blame on some outsider, some scapegoat.
QuoteThe process by which this happens sometimes seems mysterious and incomprehensible. At times, it's impossible to clearly see what went wrong. Looking at the tragedy after the fact, it seems as if everyone did everything right. There were, perhaps, misunderstandings and miscommunications. But most of the people involved honestly and sincerely tried to understand everyone's point of view, and they did all the correct conflict-management and conflict-resolution kinds of things. But somehow, everything they tried simply made matters worse.
There is an inherent presumption here that the divide or problems are surmountable, that the group can be "perfected". Sometimes, no matter how sincere a person is in their beliefs, and no matter how much they want to end the conflict, this is impossible due to irreconcilable viewpoints. You have heard of irreconcilable ideas, yes?
QuoteIt's almost enough to make you paranoid, and wonder if there's a cowen plot to break the will of our most dedicated and ethical people.
Yes, its the devilish tricksters, the Cowan, out to break those of the old religion! Ahahahahaha! Or, possibly, you have a problem with taking responsibility for problems that arise in your community and constantly make references to external agents as being the problem. I know which I think is more likely.
QuoteA while back, Isaac Bonewits published a review of a book which explored this subject. The book is called, Antagonists in the Church: How to Identify and Deal with Destructive Conflict, by Kenneth Haugk...Isaac highly recommended this book, in spite of it being written from a Christian perspective and intended for a Christian audience of ministers and lay leaders....For a modern Witch or Pagan, reading Haugk's book frequently gets tiresome, because Haugk honestly views conflicts within Christian groups as ultimately being the work of the Devil out to destroy the True Church. But putting aside the Christian apologetics, there's an amazing amount in there which is useful and incredibly insightful.
Again, I can see a number of problems here. You are essentially taking your model for conflict from an absolutist and somewhat paranoid interpretation of Christianity, which lays the blame on the Devil. The only difference between yourself and Haugk is that he uses the Devil, and you use outsiders. The form is otherwise exactly the same, an original and totally committed source, external of course, that creates all this conflict and disorder.
QuoteHere's a very important insight: Such conflicts don't "just happen." The really destructive ones, the really vicious fights which tear apart Covens or larger groups, conflicts which break the spirit of the most dedicated Elders, these conflicts aren't accidents, and they aren't the consequence of simple misunderstandings or miscommunications. No; they happen because particular individuals made them happen. There is a class of personality traits which makes certain individuals crave conflict.
How convenient. I suppose blaming it all on a personality type means you can avoid the need for any sort of self-analysis or critical questioning of your own handling. Also, the conceit that such conflicts are always planned is incredible. As someone who has experience as a conspirator and instigator in some conflicts, I like to consider myself an actual expert in the area. And I can tell you this much: there is no such thing as a single, original cause of any fight. A vicious and destructive fight can be totally sincere and honest, or it can have multiple origins, some legitimate and others done for self-gain, or other reasons entirely.
QuoteThe personality traits they possess can be identified, and their techniques can be thwarted or rendered ineffective. To handle them properly takes prior knowledge and preparation, however. It also requires a willingness to take firm action, and to freely exercise your legitimate authority as a Coven Leader.
Presumably, any technique that works on such a personality obviously bent towards conflict and destruction would undoubtedly also work on anyone who raised legitimate problems or issues which a Coven leader decided they did not want to address or resolve. After all, if they are not good enough to work on such "dedicated" individuals, then they are worthless, and if they are good enough, then they have multiple applications.
How useful that it also allows the Coven leader to exercise their "legitimate" authority over others. How is any sort of authority legitimate, least of all within religious groups? From whence does such authority derive? Do you have control with the consent of those you exercise power over, or is it based within your religious structure, your "advanced knowledge" or indeed other factors? Many covens are susceptible to nepotism, corruption and the Big Fish in a Little Pond Syndrome, all of which don't sound especially good sources for authority at all.
QuoteSince this is a religious context, I'll also give some thoughts on the theology of it all. Regardless of how Haugk views the matter, as Witches we needn't see it as a conflict of good vs. evil, but rather as a case of treating the people around us in the ways which are appropriate to each individual person. Nor is it a case of a cowen plot, but rather of processes which are entirely natural, though discomforting - in the same way a plague or a flood or an earthquake is entirely natural. Though the Gods of Nature throw such disasters at us, we needn't stand passively and merely accept the destruction. If you live on a floodplain or geologic fault, you can, and should, make proper preparations to minimize how badly you'll be hurt
.
But wait a minute, you just said above that this is not a natural process? So which is it? Are these people part of a natural system of universal checks and balances on autocratic jerks, or are they not? You contradict your opening statements, which makes the coherency of your train of thought suspect.
And if you build your house on a floodplain or geological fault line, then you're an idiot, or you have to accept the element of risk in your actions. I mean, if we're going to extend metaphors here.
QuoteReally destructive conflict is caused by people who are driven to engage others in unwinnable contests. Such people generally have very low self-esteem, little regard for those around them, often a rather loose grip on consensual reality, and frequently possess a fair measure of paranoia. Their low self esteem makes them want to tear others down, in order to make themselves look better by comparison. Having little or no regard for others, they won't care about the damage they cause, and frequently won't even recognize they've caused any. Being unable to distinguish reality from their own rich inner fantasy lives, they will be very convincing liars, because they honestly believe the incredible things they say. And their paranoia is often justified; when they act on their inner drives, they start causing damage, and people stop liking them. Paranoiacs frequently do have many enemies, and few friends.
I question Eran's psychological credentials. For starters, this is taken directly from the description for paranoid personality disorder. Does Mr Eran have any proof that such people actually suffer from such a disease? What is his evidence? Or is he just using mental illness as a particularly nasty and underhanded slur against people who upset the status quo? Surely if these people are sick, then they deserve our sympathy and medical attention, not scorn and belittlement.
I of course question the entire psychological profile put forward here. Again, from personal experience, those who are most suited to creating real, debilitating conflict are usually very sophisticated and adept in social situations, and have a very good grasp on social dynamics and human behaviour in general. They would have to be, in order to create the sort of problems that tear a Coven apart. Unless it was a very weak coven in the first place, of course, in which case my criticisms about legitimacy apply.
QuoteAll this makes them very guarded and closed-off and secretive, though they'll frequently hide behind a carefully-constructed mask of outward friendliness. One such person was overly fond of the most famous quote from Machiavelli: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." That kind of deceit and duplicity is something to look out for.
A Machiavellian personality is nothing like paranoid personality disorder. Goddamnit, if you are going to pretend to diagnose people with serious mental illnesses, as least keep some coherency in your argument. Such a person would likely tend towards psychopathy, because while they can understand and model their behaviour according to social expectations, they themselves feel no real compassion, benevolence or sympathy because of that empathy.
And again, we are assuming a priori that there is some sort of mental issue going on here. I find this pattern of implicit dehumanization of critics both worrying and somewhat disgusting. Some people enjoy conflict out of boredom. Have you never seen two cats start a fight simply because they can? And, as always, it overlooks legitimate or accidental conflicts entirely.
QuoteIn a Pagan context, it wouldn't be appropriate to use this imagery of Eternal Conflict. We'd do better with an image more in keeping with Pagan myth and symbolism.
Something like "Shiva" or "Kali" would be an improvement. After all, destruction is a natural process, though one which we don't want to stand too close to, if we can help it. But then, destructive people get most of their strength from the fear and worry they can inspire in their targets, and putting on them a label like "Kali" gives them far too much power. Better still would be a term which, while not minimizing the danger, doesn't give them more respect than they deserve. The Books of Raoul say, "Every ecosystem needs maggots," and so I've heard the term "maggot" used effectively, though that seems to go too far the other way. A word I've chosen to use is "troll.
Wow...hate Hindus much? Both Shiva and Kali have very important roles within Hindu cosmology, ones that are mirrored elsewhere by deities like Coyote, or Hermes, or Eris. I note the objection to the use of the names of the destructive deities isn't the implicit insult to other religions either, but to not give them too much credit or power. So instead you steal an internet phrase.
QuoteIn much of European mythology and folklore, giants, trolls, and ogres are embodiments of the forces of Chaos, natural forces which often batter at the walls of civilization or even at the orderly forms which Nature Herself creates. Chaos is not an "evil" force. It's simply the flip side of the creative impulse. Seeing destructive people as chaotic rather than as evil helps to place them into a useful and meaningful Pagan context. Of all these chaotic embodiments, trolls are sometimes among the strongest - yet they also have an unintentionally comic side, as we're reminded by fairy tales such as the "Three Billy Goats Gruff," or modern stories such as Tolkien's "The Hobbit". Trolls can be easily outwitted, if you know something about them, for sunlight turns them into harmless boulders. An understanding of the true nature of destructive people is the sunlight which renders them impotent and ineffective.
Oh wow. This is incredible. You're actually being serious here. If we're going to talk folklore, then fine. To extend the metaphor, yet again, the giants of Norse mythology were a destructive force because the Gods denied them immortality. They jealously kept the apples which granted them immortal life in Asgard, and refused to share their powers. The hierarchy between the giants and Aesir looks a more likely cause of conflict than anything else you care to name. But after all, you've already decided those who engage in conflicts are mentally ill, so I doubt rational arguments will sway you much.
Secondly, conflating chaos with destruction and evil, opposed to order? What is this, Christianity 101? I think a generation of avant-garde artists want a word or two here, not to mention several thousand Discordians. Chaos is value neutral, and can as often lead to creation as destruction, since its primary element is that of change. Order can easily be as oppressive as chaos, if not more so, because with oppressive order, the possibility of change or difference is removed. Classical Greece is a perfect example of creative chaos, and the Roman Empire a perfect example of oppressive order.
Thirdly, will you please make up your mind? Are trolls scary and uncontrollable, mentally ill individuals who can reduce entire communities to strife, or are they easily dispatched? You can't have it both ways. This is starting to sound like a Bush speech, hype the threat, then promise the supposedly easy cure. Which of course begs the question no-one ever asks, that if the cure is so easy, why is the threat so dangerous?
QuoteFrequently, trolls are unaware of the damage they're causing. A cornered mongoose doesn't really want to rip you to pieces; it just wants to get away. So too, a destructive person will usually deny wanting to cause pain. .... This is the key in a nutshell: trolls are not healthy people, so they can't be expected to act in mature and healthy ways. And treating them as if they were mature and healthy is like treating a cornered mongoose as if it was a beloved housecat. The results are not pretty.
A mongoose or a plague-carrying flea is not likely to change into something else. Neither is a troll. Unless you are very, very skilled as a counselor, nothing you can do will help a troll get healthy. In fact, things you'd normally do to help other people will just make matters worse. If you are understanding and patient in response to a troll's dishonest or destructive acts, what troll learns is: dishonesty and destructiveness is rewarded by patience and understanding. This encourages the troll to continue being dishonest and destructive.
Ah, pseudospeciation at its best. Trolls are not only mythological creatures, they are mongooses, and plague-bearing fleas. And, just like terrorists, they cannot be negotiated with, since they are supremely irrational (except when they are being deviously Machiavellian and manipulating people into doing their bidding, one presumes).
QuoteBecause trolls need conflict, they are very practiced at it. Experience is a good teacher, and most trolls will have had an enormous amount of experience by the time they are old enough to join a Coven. If you wind up being the target of a troll's attacks, fighting back is not a good idea. Trolls are very, very good at turning any frontal assaults to their advantage. They are even better at finding and manipulating more subtle responses. One of the most powerful defensive tricks they have is pretending to be the victim. Once you respond - in any way, regardless of how measured and controlled your response is - they begin telling everyone they know about how mean you are, and how cruel and vicious and vindictive you're being. It's a good way to turn your own friends against you, and begin making you feel isolated and paranoid. This tactic has the additional advantage of turning attention away from whatever unethical acts the troll was doing in the first place.
Unless of course, they weren't involved in any unethical conduct, and they really are a victim, that you are victimizing. This paragraph says to me "ignore anything the so-called troll says! Everything will be a lie, they can't be trusted!" So much for the truth winning debates, instead the solution would seem to be isolation and ignoring the points raised. Again, avoiding the necessity of, oh, perhaps taking a critical look at yourself and your role in the conflict or drama.
QuoteSo, patience won't help; retaliation won't help; love and support won't help. Explaining the situation won't help, and neither will proposing solutions or compromises, nor will mediation or engagement in any sort of dialogue. If you wind up in any dispute or argument with a troll, doing any of these things will simply make matters worse, and will probably result in incredible pain. Yet these are exactly the approaches you should use with most people who are not trolls. Most people are healthy. Trolls are not, and should not be treated as if they are. Trolls are not healthy; they won't get healthy, they don't want to get healthy, and keeping them near you will eventually let them harm you.
WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERR-UH, TROLLS. So you may as well not bother engaging any person who is causing any sort of minor upset, since they are a troll (supposedly). The only thing that can be done is to remove them as soon as possible, and ignore anything else they say or do. Only then can our pristine and perfect world can be restored.
That is part one of both this essay and my response completed. The next should follow shortly.
:mittens: x :taco:
:mittens:
Many mittens to you. That was a great read.
I also noticed this guy took the "troll" metaphor at face value. Thing is, an internet troll isn't supposed to be the mythical monster who turns to stone in sunlight. "Trolling" is a method of catching fish, and an internet troll is one who fishes for arguments by trolling.
(But I've made the same mistake before being corrected on it, so whatever.)
Yes, I found that a little strange too. I mean, it sortof fits, when you consider Loki etc where "giants" in the way Prometheus etc was a "Titan", but its stretching it a lot, and the original meaning still works far better. Also, ironically most named giants within the Norse sagas were actually ancient and very wise, and very different to their common depiction as mindless monsters and killers
It actually seems to me a simple and clear indication that the writer wrote everything off the top of his head, with no research or any attempt to use external sources to justify his claims. Which is actually evident all through the text (well, at least the parts you quoted.)
Well, we've got 6 more pages of this to hack through. And trust me, it only gets worse.
:mittens: :mittens: :mittens:
Excellent!
I love how the style is a mix of an intellectual/analytical paper and confrontational rant.
:thanks:
I like to think its what I do best.
By the end of this, I'll be lucky if every Pagan on the planet doesn't treat me in the way Christian Fundies treat Dawkins.
Which will be awesome.
:mittens:
Very awesome. I'm sure the lulz generated by Wiccans being told they're so similar to Christians will be nice and epic.
I can't believe I actually read that whole post only to realize that I'm pretty much going to side against anything that can be accurately described as authoritarian. :evilmad:
Awesome post, Cain.
Too bad we're going on strike.
Its alright.
Twinke has posted it to Mind n Magick and her Livejournal, and Cydira is posting it in some places where it will get a terrible reaction. All with my blog link. From there on in, the Pagans shall come to us.
8)
well played, sir.
"Newage Sewage."
(stolen from a RAW interview)
'nother favorite:
QuoteThe Berkeley mob once called Leary and me "the counter-culture of the counter-culture." I'm some kind of antibody in the New Age movement. My function is to raise the possibility, "Hey, you know, some of this stuff might be bullshit."
Appropriate :mittens:-ery to you, sir. But...
Quote from: Cain on March 16, 2008, 01:28:14 PM
Well, we've got 6 more pages of this to hack through. And trust me, it only gets worse.
Worse? How can it--
Never mind, I'm not going to ask. I'll just wait to see the epic.
Well done. I haven't read all of it due to finals week but I did read most of it.
I'm going to repost this in it's entirety at Barbelith (http://www.barbelith.com/) > Temple, where I ruffled feathers previously and narrowly escaped a ban. Unless of course you object.
Only "good Discordianism" is allowed there, which of course is just fluffy bullshit and pinealism.
QuoteSo, patience won't help; retaliation won't help; love and support won't help. Explaining the situation won't help, and neither will proposing solutions or compromises, nor will mediation or engagement in any sort of dialogue. If you wind up in any dispute or argument with a troll, doing any of these things will simply make matters worse, and will probably result in incredible pain. Yet these are exactly the approaches you should use with most people who are not trolls. Most people are healthy. Trolls are not, and should not be treated as if they are. Trolls are not healthy; they won't get healthy, they don't want to get healthy, and keeping them near you will eventually let them harm you.
my presence at TCC has been minimal, but it sounds like this guy has The Final Solution (tm).
also, i have a special place in my gall for Hinduism. our ilk would definitely been in Shiva n' Kali's good graces.
(also, Shiva was much more than the destruction aspect of Godhead.)
round the 'bout, props.
Quote from: EmmaE on March 18, 2008, 12:15:17 AM
Appropriate :mittens:-ery to you, sir. But...
Quote from: Cain on March 16, 2008, 01:28:14 PM
Well, we've got 6 more pages of this to hack through. And trust me, it only gets worse.
Worse? How can it--
Never mind, I'm not going to ask. I'll just wait to see the epic.
The answer to that question shall become painfully obvious later today.
QuoteWell done. I haven't read all of it due to finals week but I did read most of it.
I'm going to repost this in it's entirety at Barbelith > Temple, where I ruffled feathers previously and narrowly escaped a ban. Unless of course you object.
Only "good Discordianism" is allowed there, which of course is just fluffy bullshit and pinealism.
Please feel free. Only caveat I have is to link them to the entry at http://episkoposcain.blogspot.com/2008/03/deconstructing-pagan-authoritarianism.html so they know who to piss and moan at should they feel upset.
Quote from: Prater Festwo on March 18, 2008, 02:06:56 AM
QuoteSo, patience won't help; retaliation won't help; love and support won't help. Explaining the situation won't help, and neither will proposing solutions or compromises, nor will mediation or engagement in any sort of dialogue. If you wind up in any dispute or argument with a troll, doing any of these things will simply make matters worse, and will probably result in incredible pain. Yet these are exactly the approaches you should use with most people who are not trolls. Most people are healthy. Trolls are not, and should not be treated as if they are. Trolls are not healthy; they won't get healthy, they don't want to get healthy, and keeping them near you will eventually let them harm you.
my presence at TCC has been minimal, but it sounds like this guy has The Final Solution (tm).
also, i have a special place in my gall for Hinduism. our ilk would definitely been in Shiva n' Kali's good graces.
(also, Shiva was much more than the destruction aspect of Godhead.)
round the 'bout, props.
He wasn't at TCC, fortunately, but yes, he does seem to have a little bit of a place in his heart for extreme measures.
ah.
donde, then?
[edit]
n/m, shows on google.
Quote from: Cain on March 18, 2008, 06:18:16 AM
Quote from: EmmaE on March 18, 2008, 12:15:17 AM
Appropriate :mittens:-ery to you, sir. But...
Quote from: Cain on March 16, 2008, 01:28:14 PM
Well, we've got 6 more pages of this to hack through. And trust me, it only gets worse.
Worse? How can it--
Never mind, I'm not going to ask. I'll just wait to see the epic.
The answer to that question shall become painfully obvious later today.
QuoteWell done. I haven't read all of it due to finals week but I did read most of it.
I'm going to repost this in it's entirety at Barbelith > Temple, where I ruffled feathers previously and narrowly escaped a ban. Unless of course you object.
Only "good Discordianism" is allowed there, which of course is just fluffy bullshit and pinealism.
Please feel free. Only caveat I have is to link them to the entry at http://episkoposcain.blogspot.com/2008/03/deconstructing-pagan-authoritarianism.html so they know who to piss and moan at should they feel upset.
Will do, it won't be going up for a day or so though. I've got to find some time to format it for html and whatnot.
That's cool, whenever. I've only really started to get dug into part 2 now, and I've been meaning to do it since Monday, so I'm hardly in a position to chide others over time management!
Ok, it's up:
hxxp://barbelith.com/topic/28259
Now I've just got to compose my thoughts on the issue...
My thoughts are: I did it for the lulz. I also may be overstating my position somewhat, but then again, so is he, so on the whole, its a balanced discourse.
Part two in the next two posts.
Apologies for the gap in time between the previous article and this. I've been busy attending to personal issues and have only recently had the time to put the finishing touches on this section. With that out of the way, we shall continue with the critical evaluation of the How to Keep Your Coven from Being Destroyed.
The second part of that essay starts with a restatement of the original principles and conclusions of the previous entry, namely that conspiratorial thinking about the cause of conflicts are good things, that negotiation is letting the terrorists, I mean trolls, win, and that despite all of this being a natural process, it should somehow be confronted and dealt with, presumably because many Pagans are only in favour of nature when its inoffensive.
However, the purpose of this section of the essay is to identify the difference between a (supposed) troll and a (supposedly) normal coven member. Eran likens the troll to a "tarantula or scorpion", while an ordinary coven member is apparently more akin to a "pet hamster."
I find the imagery here very interesting. Troll, scorpion, tarantula. The former is a creature from Northern European that many are familiar with, from stories involving goats and bridges to Tolkein's myths, often used as the scary elements within a child's tale. The latter are creatures to which we have a natural aversion, thanks to evolutionary biology gifting us with more common sense than, say, the writer of this essay. In short, he is using the text to evoke these feelings of discomfort and buried, irrational childhood concerns, and then presenting the 'troll' as the perfect outlet for such feelings. It is a technique that works well, especially on people who think in mostly visual terms, but is hardly the mainstay of a serious debate (of course, neither is my mockery, but I have to be me, and I do try to keep it to the sidelines).
On the other hand, we have the normal coven member, or the hamster. They're small. They're fluffy. They're kind of cute, in an inoffensive way. They're utterly defenceless and rely on you entirely for their protection and needs. Here, in contrast, we are invoking the feelings of benevolent paternalism. The coven leaders are defending you against the big, bad trolls, because you're too nice and naïve to understand the brutal realities of the world. I don't know about you, but I grew out of the need to have a parent try and second-guess my every decision quite a while ago, and have found doing my thinking on my own to be no great burden. Of course, some people have not, but we have institutions for such people, like the Southern Baptist Church, or the Conservative Party.
Anyway, the use of the discomforting analogies is a lead-up to the solution provided in the previous section, which is of course ejection without a moment's delay. You see how this works, now, I assume, so I shall not labour the point. Create revulsion and discomfort, link to a phrase, offer solution that immediately remedies the feelings. Naturally, this should be done without recourse to anything like public debate, formal hearings etc because they may contradict the leader. Did I say contradict the leader? I meant, just give the troll what they want. Of course. Yes.
Eran sounds what would seem a sensible note of caution about his own list, which makes me further question his suitability for writing such an essay. If he is only able to clarify, in broad terms, what constitutes trollish behaviour, and overlays it with so many warnings about how some people can have off days, but on the other hand no troll will show even most of the signs he has listed, then I have to question the use of his list at all. All this does is hand over a check-list for any aspiring coven autocrat to use as they see fit.
Furthermore, concentration on the behaviour, over the causes, ignores the legitimacy that any of the listed actions may in fact have. By removing the cause of behaviour from observation, all we ever end up doing is reaffirming the boundaries of the currently existing power structure, regardless of how good or bad that structure may be.
Anyway, lets turn to these supposed traits, and see what they actually consist of.
QuoteAmazingly Likeable. Trolls often have the ability to be liked almost immediately. They can be very ingratiating, and seem incredibly open and friendly. It isn't necessary to be suspicious of someone who gives a very positive first impression. Some wonderful people also have a great deal of personal charisma. Instant, karmic connections can happen (and, in Paganism often do); but coupled with other warning signs, this could indicate an attempt at manipulation. Trolls tend to be likeable - it's what keeps them from being immediately recognized. It probably kept them from being beheaded at a young age.
Hmm. Just a little different from his earlier description, that of someone who has, and I quote "very low self-esteem, little regard for those around them, often a rather loose grip on consensual reality, and frequently possess a fair measure of paranoia."
As far as I have found, those who tend to be likeable individuals usually have incredible self-esteem, which is part of their charm. The motto of such people is often "I'm OK, you're OK", which breeds mutual respect. Likeable personalities often take a genuine interest in those they engage with, and deal with them in a positive and constructive way. Doesn't sound very paranoid or lacking a grip on reality to me.
Of course, I did mention the psychopathic personality type in the previous entry, but not only are such people genuinely rare, they contradict his own previous assertions about the nature of these trolls. Of course, I agree that trolls I know do in fact fit the above description provided by Eran, but I am not trying to convince everyone that trolls are mentally ill. It also smacks just ever so slightly of jealousy – that a person can come along and be well liked without having to rely on some sort of rank or authority to get such respect.
QuoteGushing Praise. This is related to being Amazingly Likeable. Does the person seem to be trying to butter you up, to identify your insecurities (everybody has some) and to play on them to give you strokes and lull you into acceptance? Does the person give gifts out of proportion to your level of intimacy and acquaintance?
I think my jealousy angle may be in fact correct. This just reeks of it. If someone is likeable, chances are they will praise good work by people involved. That's part of their likeability, that they are not overly critical or dismissive of efforts done by the people involved. As for gifts – some people are naturally generous, or have better incomes and means than others. I would expect someone adept within social situations to generally be capable within the workplace and possibly involved either with management of people, human resources, public relations or other areas where one could expect relatively decent pay.
QuoteGotcha. Does the person seem to find joy in pointing out other people's errors or slips, mistakes and goofs, faults and bad habits? Does the person seem to imply these mean he or she is smarter or better suited to be a leader than is the one who goofed? Does the person sometimes ask questions he or she already knows the answers to, just to see if you know?
Somewhat of a contrast to the entry above. However, if we study the context of the language more closely, some details come out. The problem here is critical evaluation of the coven leadership. "Other people" in this entry does not mean the people to whom the supposed troll is praising and being friendly with", but the troll's "betters". Because god forbid something could be wrong with the leadership. If a leader is making mistakes, and is lacking in knowledge, then they probably shouldn't be a leader. It's that simple. Eran obviously disagrees with this, because rank is in and of itself more important than anything else, especially spiritual growth and learning, which could be accelerated by a leader who doesn't consistently screw up, or doesn't know their stuff as well as they should.
QuoteCoven Hopper. Does this person have a history of moving from Coven to Coven, usually (or always) leaving on bad terms? Does he or she have nothing but negative things to say about the leader(s) of previous groups? Does the person exhibit a dislike of Pagan Leaders in general?
On one hand, this could be a valid criticism, but on the other hand...have you actually met many Pagan leaders? I can only go by the ones I have encountered online, but many seem little more than petty bullies interested in lording it over the serfs – that is, the rest of their coven, and demonstrating their authority at every chance they get.
And chances are, if someone does leave several groups, then they are going to say bad things about some leaders. That many moves suggests a problem of some sort. However, it doesn't tell us if the problem is with the individual (as Eran obviously believes) or the system (which is more towards my beliefs). Its a purposeful fallacy, the use of this description, because it picks a sample group where resentment and anger against other Pagan leaders is likely to be high, regardless or not if it is justified.
QuoteName Droppers/Initiation Collectors. Does the person expect you to be impressed by the people he or she has met, or the number of groups or Traditions he or she has worked with? Is there frequent reference to his or her marvelous and unmatchable experiences, skills, and knowledge? (Real sages can let their light shine without constant boasting).
"
Sounds like the green-eyed monster again. Usually, the people most guilty of this are in fact coven leaders, who cant help but boast about their seemingly extraordinary past and contacts within the Pagan community. I suspect the problem here is being shown up for being a fraud, or feeling threatened by someone who actually does have some ability beyond pretending to be all quiet and sage like.
'Sage' is a cover term for timid, normally, which suggests a lack of confidence in ones abilities. To be sure, you don't need to show off at every turn, but equally you don't have to squirrel away your sage-like knowledge and and skills so no-one ever sees them. Unless you don't actually have them, of course.
QuoteExcessive Rulehating. Many Pagans are very independent people. However, if someone is going to work within an established group, they need to be willing to follow whatever guidelines that group has, however loose or restrictive those guidelines might be. Trolls hate such restrictions. Healthy people who dislike a given group's rules are willing to admit that particular group may not be right for them, and to look elsewhere without animosity. Trolls will be angry at you personally for running a group which does not suit them.
Damn, I've been caught out! I'm a rule-hating troll!
Now, lets examine this in some detail. Apparently, Pagans are very independent people. But they are only allowed to express that independence in the right way, which means never questioning the rules. Where is the independence in submission? See, this is what happens when you allow Rush Limbaugh type dittoheads to dominate the national discourse for more than a few years. Word meanings go all Orwellian. Independence means never questioning things. Individuality means conforming. War is Peace. And we have always been at war with troll-kind.
Urgh. Secondly, remember who said this:
QuoteOnce a Coven Leader realizes there's a troll in the midst of the coven, all that needs to be done to get rid of the troll is to tell him or her to go away. There doesn't need to be any red tape or formal hearings or anything of that sort. Trolls love red tape, and can usually tie up a whole organization in such a proceeding for months, or even years. Trolls need conflict the way healthy people need food, and a formal hearing - even one whose purpose is an attempt to eject the troll - is exactly the arena in which they thrive.
Yeah, Eran not only says trolls love red tape (in direct contradiction to this) but also...wait for it...hates red tape himself! Of course, there is a difference when it comes to ignoring and reducing rules when you are the coven leader, and rules for the "little people." Little people, i.e.; everyone else in the Coven, is held to a different standard to the leader.
And of course, if someone who is 'healthy' disagrees, they should leave anyway, since the group is not right for them. So in Eran's world, you're allowed to be an individual, but only with some other coven. Also note how this ties in with the description of those who travel from group to group or are outspoken against Pagan leaders. If this is the standard of most Pagan leaders, no wonder there are a segment of bitter, disenchanted and independently minded people out there. He's helping to perpetuate the very problem he says he is trying to cure.
QuoteEchoes and Re-runs. Is this person frequently involved in arguments and destructive conflicts? Do conflicts seem always to occur and re-occur when this person is around? Does the person accept responsibility for his or her role in previous disagreements, or are these problems always blamed on someone else?
Useless without context. If the structure is the problem, then the same conflicts will reoccur until either the structure is changed, the individual is crushed and made to conform, or is run out. Eran's lack of ability to distinguish between collective, systemic problems and individual ones is his main, great failings.
QuoteUnnamed "Others". Are "others" always to blame for this person's problems? Do "others" always agree with this person's concern? Does the person carry tales told to him or her by "others"? Is this person always vague about just exactly who these "others" are?
Given the way Eran seems to think a coven should be run, as a personal fiefdom with him as the Theocrat in Chief, I'd want to keep my criticisms of the leadership as anonymous as possible too. I'd also likely go to the person I trust and like a lot, and the person who has already shown some level of criticism with my concerns as well. Eran's lack of understanding of the processes here are incredible.
QuoteLiving One's Religion. Does this person exhibit unethical or dishonest and destructive behavior in other areas of his or her life? A destructive person won't stop being destructive in Circle, and trolls object to having you look at other areas of their lives. Someone who is destructive or dishonest in their personal lives will be equally destructive and dishonest in their Craft lives.
What if one's religion rewards those smart enough to get away with dishonesty for the greater good? What if destructive behaviour is only directed at those unethical institutions, groups or individuals who deserved their fate? I have partaken in deception before, to infiltrate groups or deflect suspicions from myself, and have undertaken acts which could be classed as destructive (I prefer disruptive, but since Eran's not too fussy with his terminology, I suspect this would be included). What if one's religion involves having a good time and giving hell to any idiot stupid enough to try and deny you that?
Eran would have you believe every Pagan (at least, every True Pagan) is some goodie two-shoes type, meek and mild-mannered. You'd think for someone who not so subtly gives the impression that he is used to the harsh realities that lesser coven members are not, he'd understand sometimes having an effect on the world around you involves reference to a different moral code than one of quiet contemplation and spiritual growth. The monk and the knight were both Christian, but their actions could not be further apart. And there is even greater disparity within the many strands of Pagan belief than there are of expressions of religiosity in Catholicism.
The fear here is of someone with power, outside of the official power structure, and someone who is capable of planning ahead (as dishonesty and deception, by necessity, involve thinking ahead to the consequences of ones actions). Such people are generally dangerous to those who derive their power from their station or authority and little else.
QuoteLiar. Is the person often caught in outright lies? Are there excuses and slick explanations always at the ready? Excuses can get pretty imaginative. A common technique is to frequently claim to have misunderstood or misremembered the conversations in question. One troll even invented the condition of "aural dyslexia" to "explain" his frequent false statements.
A liar is a liar, but the reasons behind their lies can be many and often non-offensive. And again, I've seen far more Pagan leaders who are liars than followers, especially when it comes to questioning their authority, where they can get positively revisionary about past conversations, rules and statements. And clarity of rules should be of paramount importance. If a leader leaves the rules vague and undefined, then it is their fault when people take advantage of that.
As an aside, auditory processing disorder is in fact an underlying condition of dyslexia, and may affect up to 60% of dyslexia sufferers. Again proving Eran has no grounds for his use of psychological terms and language. If Eran knew anything about psychology or biology, he'd know dyslexia was a neurological problem, and such problems can have effects on other sensory processes. Instead, he labels someone a lying troll and (presumably) expels them. Nice.
QuoteNote Takers and Journal Keepers. Trolls like to write things down - slanting the record, of course, to make themselves look good, and to make everyone else look bad. They'll pull out their journals from time to time to "prove" how mean someone else was, or to back up their own incredible claims. Of course, even healthy Pagans often keep magical workbooks and notebooks, so simply keeping a journal - even a highly subjective journal - doesn't make one a troll. But does the person sometimes use these subjective personal accounts to back up a claim? Are these accounts filled with extreme adjectives and intimations of others' imagined states of mind? Does the person seem unable to realize that their journal is subjective testimony, and not an objective and accurate, proven account?
Of course, no Pagan leader would ever slant the record with their own subjective judgements either. And if I had to deal with a duplicitous leadership, you can bet I'd be recording what was said and when as well.
Also, every account is going to be, to a degree, subjective. You're a human, not God (sorry Satanists, I'm sure you'll get over it, one day), you are bound by your perceptions, senses, models of human behaviour, past experiences, social status and a bunch of other factors. You can try to minimize these, but if someone is quoting back your exact words to you, that's about as objective as you can ever hope to get.
QuoteExcessive Sarcasm. A ready wit is a good thing. A consistently sarcastic and caustic wit, which constantly belittles others, is not. Does the person seem unable to comprehend the painful and destructive effects of his or her own sarcastic statements?
Of course, someone who has been thrown out of several covens for not accepting their (likely ludicrous) rules and repression, upon seeing it again, would never engage in sarcasm at all, would they?
Some people have naturally caustic wits. Some people can't help but point out hypocritical or pathetic behaviour on the part of some leaders. Sometimes, these people get beheaded and have their hands cut off, like Cicero. Other times, they get called trolls and expelled from covens. Also, I very much doubt someone who was so hurtfully sarcastic to the entire coven would be very likeable. So again, I suspect Eran means sarcasm directed at the actions of the leadership.
QuotePests. Is the person constantly calling with questions, suggestions, personal problems? Does he or she expect you to be willing to drop everything to deal with any and all concerns? Is he or she offended and angry if you can't?
Sounds more like someone who joined a coven for personal reasons relating to support. I can't see much of this being very trollish, even given the contradictory definitions given so far. Of course, labelling them a troll then allows the leader to get rid of them without feeling much in the way of guilt, and yet also proves this isn't about trolls at all, but about inconveniencing the all mighty coven leaders, and dealing with those problems in any way possible.
QuoteCauses. A social conscience is a Good Thing, and many Pagans are very active politically. But great social causes can also be a mask for selfish demands, or for a desire for personal power. Does the person heap scorn on those who don't have an equal zeal for the same causes? Does the person use these causes as excuses to start fights - even when it's time to settle down to other work?
Funny how these causes can be a mask for selfish demands and personal power, but a coven is not, of course. And if I felt strongly about a cause, then yes, I would heap scorn on those who only pay lip benefit to it. Why? Because I feel strongly about it.
The problem here is not the cause, or personal power seeking. The problem is that the sort of person attracted to causes often has a highly developed value system, including some abstract absolutes. And than means if the Coven leader, who may or may not be a power hungry jerk, transgresses these, obedience to them will not mean as much as righting the wrong that was committed. Again, its the problem with personality types who fight back and wont accept certain actions.
QuoteBad Losers/Bad Winners. In arguments or disagreements - or in games and leisure activities - does the person react well to resolutions? What kind of impression does the person give about past conflicts? Is there excessive gloating when the person wins, or harping and whining when he or she loses? Are personal disagreements often depicted in terms of winning and losing, rather than as attempts to resolve differences? Does a loss provoke retaliation? Does the person use various forms of intimidation, or passive-aggressive techniques, to get what he or she wants?
In short, does this person follow the implicit advice of Eran, who has shown absolutely no interest in conflict resolution whatsoever?
QuoteExcessive Privacy or Secrecy. Information management is one of the most powerful tools of a troll. Be wary of anyone who tells you too many things "in confidence," or who warns you away from talking to people he or she knew formerly, or people involved in his or her tales. Of course, this does not apply to legitimate Oaths taken in a religious context. Many paths require Oaths of secrecy, and respect for the privacy of others.
If you've got nothing to hide....then you should be very worried about people who have an excessive interest in your personal life. Information is a tool of power, and any relatively sane, independent individual who recognizes this will of course attempt to place limits on what a coven leader knows. My personal life is just that. If I want interfering busybodies snooping on me, I'll go join Opus Dei. Last time I checked, Paganism wasn't a cult, and that means respecting peoples privacy. Only despots and autocrats believe that privacy is a bad thing.
QuoteOathbreakers/Braggarts. Is the person only too happy to tell you all the secrets of some other group or tradition? He or she will also treat your privacy with just as much contempt. Is the person inordinately proud of knowing Secrets which other people are not privy to?
Breaking oaths and telling secrets is probably bad form...but lets be honest, if I can find your group's secrets with half an hour's research on Google, chances are so can anyone else. Its not really a secret when you can turn up 50+ pages on the topic. And besides, secrecy within religious groups is a tool of power and coercion. Individuals have the right to privacy, but when groups engage in it, it becomes very sinister. Sharing knowledge can only lessen abuses and potentially open up fruitful discussion on a variety of topics.
QuoteProjection and Inconsistency. "When you complain about something, it's malicious gossip; but when I do, it's just sharing feelings, or warning someone about something." "When I call you nasty names, it's just an accurate description; when you talk about me behind my back, it's slander." Trolls are unable or unwilling to apply the same standards to themselves which they apply to other people. They will violently criticize others for actions they engage in themselves. Does the person seem to have an inability or unwillingness to consider other viewpoints?
But they're so likeable! How do they manage it, being so likeable yet totally incapable of understanding someone else's points of view? And of course, if there is an inconsistent standard being applied from above, by those with power in the coven, then of course there will be inconsistency in actions undertaken by those without power. That you, the leaders, set the rules of the game when it comes to such things, demands an element of inconsistency, if articulation of the problem is impossible.
QuoteChange Your Focus. If a new person joins your group, does he or she insist on having a better way to do things? Does the person always want to bend the rules of your group, or do away with them? Remember: Paganism is big, and you have no responsibility to provide for the needs of everyone who comes to you. If your group isn't to the liking of a potential member or a new member, there's nothing in the least wrong with insisting that person seek fulfillment elsewhere.
Change is bad! The old ways are best! Now let us eat our raw meat and retire to the trees for the night!
Um, yeah. Perhaps if someone has a way that is supposedly better, you should give it a try and see if it works? I mean, assuming you want to be fair about this and aren't simply clinging to relics of tradition because it is the source of your authority. I also like the restatement of accept the rules as they are, or be expelled. Great attitude there, the "never question me" gambit.
QuoteInappropriate Application of Pagan principles, such as the value of love and trust, or the Rede, subjective realities and creating your own realities, "going with my feelings," following one's own sense of ethics, 12-step "recovery," and so on. Does the person use Pagan ideals and Newage jargon as excuses and covers for unethical behavior?
Only Coven leaders are able to decide what the appropriate applications of Pagan principles are. Its kind of like the old Catholic priesthood, only the meaningless jargon is in English, and you don't get a sip of wine (which is a shame, because some churches actually have some rather fine wines). Why do Pagans put up with this crap? Have you considered the example of Martin Luther, at all? The breaking away from the established and corrupt orthodoxy bit, not the virulent anti-Semitism part. If your so-called leader doesn't know their shit as well as they should, relies on power games and appeals to authority for their decisions, and is basically incapable of arguing their point within the confines of your select religion, why the hell should they be allowed to dictate the correct and incorrect application of Pagan principles? They should be ridiculed, then tarred and feathered. Literally or figuratively, I'm not fussy.
Anyway, Eran promises to show in the next part how trolls (who hate rules, don't you know) will, um, use rules and red tape to tie up formal organization. Because apparently following your own rules is bad or something...
Link at http://episkoposcain.blogspot.com/2008/03/deconstructing-pagan-authoritarianism_22.html
:mittens:
I have way too much time on my hands.
Sadly, I have even more :sad:
Cain, you might want to register at Barbelith since a particular idiot there cannot tell the difference between me and you.
Here's what he posted before the thread was locked:
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8118/assholeatbarbelithfp4.png)
*facepalm*
I'll speak to them later tonight.
Swote.
Their membership requirements are a bit...extreme, aren't they?
I mean, its no problem for me, I have the blog and this place to show my internet presence, but srsly.
when I signed up at Barbelith, it took them two months to approve my membership. Sadly, I haven't been back.
Tangent: St. Mae says there are some Discord-hip people over there and suggests that they would be a great community to network with.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on March 23, 2008, 03:48:38 PM
when I signed up at Barbelith, it took them two months to approve my membership. Sadly, I haven't been back.
Tangent: St. Mae says there are some Discord-hip people over there and suggests that they would be a great community to network with.
St. Mae is correct. There are some very intelligent and funny people over there.
There also are some real heels that think they aren't abusing their power as mods because it takes at least two of them to
gang up agree on moderation before it can be enacted.
Cain, those deconstructions were spot-on.
Urgh, it seems my fate is to always fall behind in producing a new part on this essay. I have so many projects on my plate, not to mention readings I want to do, that finding the time to sit down and clear my head of any other distractions for an hour or so to be more difficult.
But there I am, at last, getting on with it. In this section of the essay, I want to respond to Eran's proposed rebuttals of 'trollish' arguments. Eran's arguments is that trolls "misuse" Pagan principles in order to get their own way. However, I want to talk a little about the format of his argument before we deal with what he actually says.
Eran uses a structure known to advertising types as the "but" sales pitch. I like this, mainly because it allows me to say "butt" in polite company and have a reason for doing so. But more importantly, it takes advantage of how people process arguments. By placing the supposed detractions to an argument first, then responding, what sticks most in the mind is the rebuttal, not the original claim. It also means he can frame the argument in terms he prefers, he can create "strawmen" and proceed to tear down these logical fallacies, misrepresenting very real arguments. It is quite an underhanded method, in fact, and is done precisely to mislead and persuade you via irrational means to accept his worldview. Just keep this attempt at manipulation in mind.
I'm going to structure my response along good old Hegelian Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis lines because of this. I will contrast both his claims as to what a trollish argument is and his reply, and critically assess both. As far as I know, this method only has a place within philosophy, and not advertising, and so will counteract the previous structure. Assuming there are any common truthes to be found at all.
Eran gives his usual spiel and recap of the last chapters – his tedious "understanding" of a troll and his even more laughable 'trollspotting guide' and then reminds people how trolls love to abuse Pagan principles in order to cover their actions. To which I reply, "o rly?" Eran admits they can be very convincing to large amounts of people, which makes me suspicious. If they are convincing to "other members of the local Pagan community, and to other members of larger Pagan umbrella organizations. They can even sound convincing to you, as their target." then perhaps, just maybe, there is merit to what is being said?
But no Eran suggests ignore anything like rational thought and instead steam ahead, before letting doubt set in. After all, if you're going to be dead wrong, at least you can say you were certain in your convictions. Which, as we know, makes everything alright.
Anyway, this predictably brings us to the actual arguments themselves, so here they are, presented next to each other for easier comparison.
Quote"Catch a troll in a lie, and the troll will go on about subjective realities, and how things "felt" a certain way to the troll, and you have no right to impose your personal perceptions of reality upon those of the troll. Don't Pagans value the subjective perceptions of all people? You'll also be told not to impose your ethics upon the troll. Don't trolls have as much right as you do to create their own sense of ethics? Don't Pagans value the idea of encouraging individuals to construct their own ethical guidelines, their own means of contact with Divinity? "
Quote"If the troll claims privileges based on subjective realities or personal ethics, or any of the other Pagan principles which rely on the sanctity of the individual, always keep in mind: those principles apply to you as well. The perceptions of the individual matter, and are valued, and each person must act in ways consistent with that person's sense of ethics and of contact with the Gods. Which means you, too, have the right to act upon your perceptions and ethics. If you perceive someone as dishonest and untrustworthy and destructive, then act in ways appropriate to those perceptions, and to the ethical principles you value. Do not let the troll dictate perceptions or ethics to you. "
OK then. Assumption one is that the troll is in fact lying. The simple fact is how we perceive and give meaning to events is subjective, insofar as we are limited by personal, sociological, economic, historical and biological factors, as well as access to information. This is a simple fact. Ask any lawyer who has cross-examined a few eye-witnesses to a crime and you'll soon see how perceptions of events can widely vary.
However, this does not mean that all perceptions or views have equal value, or are equally valid. Only the most insipidly cretinous New Age moron would argue such thing. If someone misperceived a comment or situation, then it is your duty, in order to resolve the conflict, to try and explain what exactly was happening. Understanding people have a different point of view does not mean agreeing with them, however it is the first step in defusing problems.
Also, you don't have the right to impose your perceptions of reality on other people. Unless that person is actively trying to harm someone, maybe. In such a case, restraining them may be in the interest of everyone, but otherwise...well, lets put it this way. From reading the original trollish statement, it seems to say that "I feel this way or that way about
- ". However, from that, Eran infers the right to act on such beliefs, which is not supported by the original statements at all.
To me, it looks like Eran is reducing the situation to a point where just about any position can be valid. In other word, the truth becomes meaningless, and all that matters is the power one wields, which effects the extent to which one can impose their worldview on the other. And since this is about Coven leaders versus lowly members, uh, trolls, it gives them all the advantages. All views are equal, so all that remains to solve the dispute is the quanta of power held by the respective parties.
Eran's final statements show exactly how much he values conflict resolution. He is actively going out of his way to cause conflict and clearly has no real desire to 'solve' it, except by exercising his powers over the individual in question. Conflict resolution relies on a certain amount of synthesis of opposing viewpoints, whereas this subscribes to the "separate but equal" principle.
Quote"If you're reluctant to accept the word of a troll who's lied to you in the past, you'll be accused of not approaching that troll with the level of love and trust you really should have. Don't these ideals mean you must accept what the troll tells you? Don't they mean you must forgive and forget? "
Quote"The love and trust we're "supposed" to feel toward each other is not supposed to be blind. It needs to be appropriate, and precisely in keeping with the nature of whatever you're dealing with. You may have perfect love and trust for a rabid mongoose. That doesn't mean you'll treat it as you would treat a housecat. It means you'll treat it as a perfectly rabid mongoose, and take the steps which are perfectly appropriate in dealing with it. You'll trust it to act like a mongoose. If someone lies to you repeatedly, you are being cruel - to yourself, to your Coveners, to your Gods, and, ultimately, to the person - if you refuse to treat that person as a habitual liar. "
Again with pseudospeciation. He really does love to paint people he doesn't like as some sort of crazy animal (and conversely, people he does like as meek housepets). And he seems to advocate treating people according to some sort of double standard. One rule for people who are meek and controllable, another for people who are not...
Interesting. See, I've run sites with much tougher crowds than any Pagan covens (imagine thirty people like me, all in one place) and I've found the best way to lead is by example and fairly. The rules apply equally to everyone, or they are not rules, only a system of control. And to be honest, if you need more than a few rules, you have some serious control freak issues, or are unable to deal with deviations from your idea of how a coven should be. Love doesn't come into the equation at all. Its as simple as this: am I applying the same standard to this person as to everyone else? Love may not be blind, but justice is, and I'd rather be just and fair in my dealings than go down Eran's route.
Quote
"Consider ejecting a troll from your Coven, and you'll run afoul of the Rede's admonition to "harm none." How dare you do such a dreadful thing to a poor troll? Aren't you causing harm, and interfering with the will of another person?"
Quote"The Rede says to "harm none" - and that includes you. By allowing the lies and manipulations of a troll to damage you, you're actively participating in the harm being done to you, to your Coveners, to your Tradition, and to anyone else being affected by the troll. If you refuse to eject a troll from your Coven, you are responsible for the harm done to your Coven from then on. "
We're stretching the definition of harm here somewhat, are we not? I wasn't aware that bruised egos were covered by the Rede, I must have missed that meeting. Both ways, that is. Surely though, if we want to take a broad look at the concept of harm, surely the least harmful solution would be to resolve the conflict to the satisfaction of every party? You know, so no-one is harmed, instead of only some people, or one person instead of the majority.
Quote"Some trolls are well versed in the language (but not the meaning) of 12-step programs. Tell a troll to desist in destructive behavior, and you'll be told not to "interfere" in the troll's "recovery program." Aren't Pagans tolerant of all paths? "
Quote"By allowing the troll to continue harmful actions without consequences, you're engaged in what 12-step programs call "enabling". Sometimes, someone addicted to drugs or alcohol is protected by friends and family members - they might make excuses for the person at work, or bail the addict out of jail, or, through a sense of love and loyalty, they might try to protect the addict from the harmful effects of his or her own actions. But this only encourages self- (and other-) destructive behavior to continue. And that does more harm. Yet you don't really want to impose your will on others else by attempting to control their actions. The solution is straightforward: "You can act however you want - but not around me." If a troll tries to spring 12-step jargon on you, just invoke "tough love" and tell the troll to take his or her recovery program elsewhere. "
I probably shouldn't say what I think of 12-steppers here. If you really want to know, I suggest checking out some of Ivan Stang's rants, it's pretty much along those lines.
Furthermore, I've never come across this excuse, not even once. To me, it looks like Eran doesn't want covens to be the focial points of mutual support groups – that allowing an addict in would cause more headaches for him than it would solve, and that they should be ejected because he doesn't want to deal with them. Its like in the last chapter, the person who needs support. He doesn't want to have to deal with that. Equally, he doesn't want to help them and cares nothing for their self destructive behaviour, so he tells them to get lost.
"Do as ye will and harm none?" More like "don't die where I might have to clear up your mess, and shove off". Harm through inaction is a very real thing, but apparently is not worth mentioning.
Quote"Tell a troll that certain destructive behaviors are simply not tolerated in your Coven, and you'll suddenly become authoritarian and inflexible and overcontrolling. Pagans are opposed to authoritarianism, aren't they? "
Quote"Is this authoritarian? Certainly not. No one is required to stay in your Coven. People who are there, are there by choice. Consenting adults and all that. As a Coven Leader, you have every right to run your Coven however you feel is proper, and other people have the right to participate or not, as they feel is proper. Authoritarianism can only happen where there is some means of compulsion. There can be no authoritarianism where there is assent, and no one stays in your Coven unless they personally choose to do so. You don't have the right (or the power!) to control others. But as a Coven Leader, you do have the right (and the responsibility!) to set the ground rules for your Coven. On the other hand, a troll has no right to force you to allow the troll to remain in contact with you, or with your Coveners. A troll has no right to dictate what behavior is acceptable in your Coven, and what behavior is not. Those are rights which you hold. "
Pagans are against authoritarianism? This is news to me. Is this like the way the Bush administration is in favour of freedom? Also, Eran is inflexible and authoritarian. The entire reason for this essay to legitimize the use of power by the Coven leader to get rid of people they don't like. Eran nowhere shows he believes in compromise or resolution of conflicts, he believes in the ejecting of people who are too annoying, to his worldview, to deal with. That's pretty much the definition, Eran baby.
But lets deal with some of Eran's claims in detail, because they interest me, in a perverse way. He believes that because you chose to join the Coven, of your own free will, you are consenting to his leadership. However, this doesn't deal with misrepresentation, miscommunication and changes in leadership or rules over time. If you have no control over those contract changes, or are unaware of them through no fault of your own, then are you really responsible for them?
Eran believes there is only authoritarianism where there is compulsion. This might be news to all those psychologists who have been studying the Authoritarian Personality, where it can appear without the person in question having any form of power at all. Furthermore, Eran clearly does have power. He can expel people from a coven against their will, which is compelling them to leave.
Moreover, authoritarianism does involve a certain amount of consent. As a social phenomenon, it is divided between those who lead and those who follow. Those who refuse to do either form a third party, those who refuse to have an assigned role in this dominant-submissive relationship. Furthermore, the problem may not be with the coven, but only the leader. I myself have been in such a situation more than a few times. I liked the people I was there with, but the person in charge was a raging asshole. Kind of like Eran. In such a situation, agitating against the leadership while staying a member is the most likely, obvious and right course to take. Unless you think you should sell out your friends to ass-kiss a leader.
Through threats and promises, the classic carrot and stick approach, coven leaders obviously do have power over others in the coven, and can use a number of tricks to control their members. He could threaten to expel people, give promises of certain positions or coveted duties to others...an imaginative leader certainly has ways to maintain their authority within a group. Power purely means the ability to get others to accept your interests, and by that standards, there are many ways to maintain control over a group of people, even if legal recourse to methods of control do not exist.
Also notice a troll has no rights to force people to stay in contact with them, but Eran does have the right to dictate what behaviour is or is not acceptable. An interesting double standard. If its a right, but not one that everyone has, then it's not really a right, is it? I believe we have a word for such rights, and they are privileges. Because Eran is the leader, he can set rules of conduct and who you can or cannot deal with. It all just sounds a tad cultish, not to mention obviously betraying a belief in rank and control.
Quote"If you express an opinion the troll doesn't care for, you'll be labeled a One-True-Wayist and possibly even compared to an Inquisitor or Pope or some such. Pagans are opposed to enforced dogma; how dare you push your ways onto others?"
Quote"Are you a One-True-Wayist simply because you express an opinion? Of course not! Charges of authoritarianism or One-True-Wayism are simply absurd in any Pagan context. We have no way of enforcing belief, nor of compelling practice. Any Pagan who doesn't like the beliefs of practice of someone else is always free to go elsewhere, or to stop associating with the person with whom they disagree. A person who makes public accusations of authoritarianism or One-True-Wayism is, beyond doubt, a troll who is simply trying to stir anger toward a target. Ignore such tactics when directed at others, and when they're directed at you, don't give them a thought. Charges of One-True-Wayism are made simply in an attempt to embarrass you and get you to shut up. Indeed, they are examples of the troll trying to force his or her opinions onto others. The troll is trying to silence a point of view with which he or she disagrees! Who is the actual One-True-Wayist here?"
Needless to say, there is absolutely no way you could compare this to Eran calling people he doesn't like trolls, just to discredit them.
As for enforcing belief or compelling practice....well, I think I dealt with that in the previous section. However, I'd like to add a little something here. Historically, expulsion was the punishment for political offences against the Polis, or city-state. It dated back to the times when humans were hunter-gatherers, where a single person would quite likely succumb to the elements once they had been cut off from the tribe, or less enlightened times, when foreigners would often not be welcome in their new society. And while out attitudes and ability to survive without a tribe have leapt far ahead, our hard-wiring and basic instincts have not. The fear of exile, of expulsion, is one that is very hard for many people to overcome, and still instils a level of fear at a pre-rational level.
And how is describing the underlying theme of an argument or a viewpoint equal to attempting to censor someone? I, and indeed countless others, are merely pointing out that this is authoritarian. If you are fine with authoritarianism, then great, that's your problem and not mine. However, it has to be said, lots of people do have issues with authoritarianism, so its likely they would want to be told if you could detect this sort of thinking via statements etc. After all, you're not trying to force your value judgement, or any sort of action, merely by pointing out how things are now. And if you do propose an action, from a position of no authority, how do you enforce it?
That's all of Eran's points and counterpoints, however, there is a further section to this essay you will have to suffer before we conclude this section. This is the section on (please don't laugh) 'Healthy Self-doubt'.
Quote"It is healthy and it is important to question yourself. A Coven Leader who never doubts his or her own actions and decisions is a dangerous person whom it would be wise to stay away from. But a Coven Leader who allows self-doubt to prevent effective and necessary action is equally dangerous. Yes, re-examine your understanding of ethical issues, frequently and deeply. Don't assume you're always right, lest you cast yourself into the role of an infallible Pope willing to burn others for mere disagreement. (In fact, a refusal to question oneself is one of the hallmarks of a troll!) But equally, don't refuse to make decisions, just because others might disagree with them."
Is that so? But I thought the purpose of a troll was to "cause you to hesitate or to be unsure of yourself at a time when what you need is self-confidence." So should you question yourself, or not? I am getting mixed signals here.
As for a lack of introspection or questioning...hmm, sounds more like a leader than a troll to me. A troll who constantly questions their external world isn't likely to delineate between their external and internal curiosity, are they? You'd also hope someone who questioned their own actions might question why they continually put forward incoherent and contradictory arguments to support their position.
Quote"Coven Leaders have the responsibility to take what steps are necessary to protect their Covens. That's one of their primary jobs. Coveners rely on them, and expect them, to do this. It is not a power seized unjustly or arbitrarily; it is a power granted by the Coveners, by virtue of them asking to join - and to remain in - the Coven. If you let a troll manipulate you by playing on your self-doubts, you're falling down on your responsibilities to people who have trusted you with their spiritual growth. Indeed, this inappropriate manipulation of healthy self-questioning is yet another example of trollish misapplication of important Pagan principles! "
I don't expect a leader to do anything except perhaps concentrate more on the group dynamic than the average person and try to look to overall goals and aims, instead of purely personal ones. And even then that only depends on the sort of group I have joined. I may only expect them to buy some decent coffee for the next meeting, depending on who they are.
Your job is not to protect anyone. You are not the person to decide who is a threat, who is not and how to deal with them. If your group is strong and open, it will, on its own, regulate against real threats and and not require your leadership or support in dealing with them.
But of course, Eran wants to play the paternalistic role against the evil outsiders. No-one else in the Coven is capable, which allows for him to use his powers to expel individuals as he sees fit.
And how exactly does Eran know that all coven leadership is granted by the Coven? Sure, leadership is a social fiction, that relies on a certain level of acceptance of the roles given. But if it is not explicit, if the leader is not elected, and there are difficult (or no) methods for their removal, then it is illegitimate. Furthermore, if power is exercised in an unjust way, then the leadership is just as illegitimate as if it had been put in power without consent. Consent of the majority for leadership does not give you carte blanche to treat a minority or individual as you please. You should really consider reading some John Stuart Mill at some point, hopefully then you'd realize how much of an idiot you sound when you don't think these things through.
Quote"What you need here is to be clear on these principles in your own mind. Give careful thought to these issues, and do your best to understand them thoroughly. But the time to engage in such introspection is not during a period of crisis. Solve these questions in your own mind before they become issues argued by a troll. "Solving" does not mean you never come back to them. It's useful and productive to come back to these issues again and again, and to let your view of them expand and grow as time goes on. But when there's someone actively tearing your Coven apart, it's time for direct action, action based on preparations and understandings you've already achieved. Afterwards, there'll be time to reassess and improve your understandings further. People grow by making mistakes, and learning from those mistakes. Don't be afraid to let yourself make some mistakes. Take the actions you feel are right, and then learn from them."
Being certain is better than being right. Feelings are better guides than actual knowledge. Oh please. You may as well just say "think with your gut!" and get it over with. Because we know, acting on principles that may have little or no relation to reality can never go wrong, can it? And how would Eran know if he's made a mistake, if he expels someone for no reason (like we established in the previous section). He never gets feedback on the effect of his actions, so he can never KNOW if he has done the right thing or not.
Quote"Have frequent discussions within your Coven about matters such as this, so your Coveners understand the issues as thoroughly as you do. If a troll begins to present misapplied principles as excuses for unethical behavior, you want your Coveners to see through those tactics as well. Again, don't argue these points with the troll. In a Coven situation, that only prolongs the pain. Get rid of the critter, and then afterward you'll have all the time you need to de-brief with your Coveners. "
"Chuck the troll, use this guide as a check-list of reasons as to why it had to be done. Don't forget to teach them the principles in this guide, so they will agree when they see some uppity git we need to get rid of."
Or, I don't know, you could let them see all the information for themselves and let them draw their own conclusion? But then again, I don't feel the need to act like a parent towards anyone in the groups I belong to. I treat them like equals, who can make up their minds, without having the ground adequately prepared beforehand to get the result I want.
Quote"In larger settings - formal churches and umbrella groups - things get a little more complicated, because you usually have to present a case to some council or governing board in order to get rid of a troll. There, it's possible for the troll to bollix up the works by raising these issues, and insisting they get argued out before an expulsion vote is taken. Handling his situation is a topic for anther time; for now, just keep in mind that any Pagan organization should 1) discuss these issues long before a crisis takes place so they're already thoroughly understood, and 2) have rules of procedure in order to stay on topic during discussions about possible disciplinary actions. "
Indoctrination is an ugly word, isn't it? This isn't quite it, but its an attempt to create a consensus around the driving ideas behind this essay, even before a problem arises. By managing the perceptions of the problem, it becomes so much easier to frame it in terms like this essay does, and advocate the same stupid, pointless punishments this essay does.
Oh joy.