It's true. Nothing can go wrong. Ever.
Seriously. It's impossible. Try it. What? Shit fucked up on you? Oh, so that's why you think something went wrong. What you are really saying is that shit didn't turn out the way you planned. Well, why don't you go do the same thing you did before? Right? You were so sure it would work the first time, maybe the results were just a fluke.
Oh...? What's that you say? You can't do the same thing again because it won't succeed, just like what happened the first go round. I get it now. So nothing actually went wrong then, did it? No laws of physics were violated? No supernatural or metaphysical interference? Good. Glad we got that settled.
So why, pray tell, did you expect it to have succeeded in the first place? There was something you didn't know, wasn't there? Ah. I suspected as much. So if it all boils down to what you may or may not know, why do you keep insisting that anything can ever go wrong? Events will play out precisely as they are meant to do in accordance with natural law. You just need to get a fucking clue, mate.
What about personal law and morals? If you feel that something has gone wrong, then it has. To say that nothing can go wrong because things went just as natural law wanted (if a law could ever want anything), while ignoring human thought and feelings, is to lessen humans and all life. It isn't just us humans who can feel bad when things get fucked up. Most other animals, too, can feel bad when things go wrong, and we would be denying them as well as us as a life.
Besides, natural law can never go wrong. Most times, anyway.
Anyway...I just realized...if things never can go wrong, what about civil disobedience? When African-Americans decided that things just weren't going right for them--or slavery, even--was it just natural law that they were oppressed? Tibet?
Quote from: K-Scar on March 19, 2008, 06:13:04 PM
What about personal law and morals? If you feel that something has gone wrong, then it has. To say that nothing can go wrong because things went just as natural law wanted (if a law could ever want anything), while ignoring human thought and feelings, is to lessen humans and all life. It isn't just us humans who can feel bad when things get fucked up. Most other animals, too, can feel bad when things go wrong, and we would be denying them as well as us as a life.
Besides, natural law can never go wrong. Most times, anyway.
Anyway...I just realized...if things never can go wrong, what about civil disobedience? When African-Americans decided that things just weren't going right for them--or slavery, even--was it just natural law that they were oppressed? Tibet?
Take a step back and look at what you just wrote. I have no idea what "personal law" is supposed to mean. Morals are tied to beliefs and beliefs are just thoughts you keep having. They don't actually exist. Also, "laws" don't want anything. They are examples of the way things are. Like gravity, which just sucks.
As for feeling bad when existence turns bad... humans == animals (and vice versa). Having a slightly above average ability to form abstract thought probably only makes the situation worse, but that's about it. It seems to me animals (without an exagerated and artificial system of expecations) tend to simply accept the reality in which they find themselves and actually DEAL with it.
How exactly is "civil disobedience" an example of things going wrong? Do you really want to deconstruct the circumstances surrounding the slave trade and everything that goes with it? And what about Tibet? What about any of these things makes you think something "went wrong"?
I know humans are animals, that's what I meant. Personal law is just beliefs that you actually listen to (such as stealing is bad because the Bible says so. Morals are stealing is bad because either I say so or because everyone else says so). And just because you can accept reality doesn't mean things can't go wrong. I can accept the fact that people die, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to miss the people who die.
As for the rest of the shit I wrote, it was something to do with morals, but I don't remember the point I was trying to get at there.
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 05:58:20 PM
It's true. Nothing can go wrong. Ever.
Seriously. It's impossible. Try it. What? Shit fucked up on you? Oh, so that's why you think something went wrong. What you are really saying is that shit didn't turn out the way you planned. Well, why don't you go do the same thing you did before? Right? You were so sure it would work the first time, maybe the results were just a fluke.
Oh...? What's that you say? You can't do the same thing again because it won't succeed, just like what happened the first go round. I get it now. So nothing actually went wrong then, did it? No laws of physics were violated? No supernatural or metaphysical interference? Good. Glad we got that settled.
So why, pray tell, did you expect it to have succeeded in the first place? There was something you didn't know, wasn't there? Ah. I suspected as much. So if it all boils down to what you may or may not know, why do you keep insisting that anything can ever go wrong? Events will play out precisely as they are meant to do in accordance with natural law. You just need to get a fucking clue, mate.
Can you define what you mean by natural law?
Quote from: Jenne on March 19, 2008, 07:00:14 PMCan you define what you mean by natural law?
I don't have a better word for it, but by "natural law" I mean the way things work in IRL. Gravity, thermodynamics, all that physics and cosmological stuff that we've barely begun to understand. This includes all those things we haven't figured out yet, as well.
Quote from: K-Scar on March 19, 2008, 06:55:08 PM
I know humans are animals, that's what I meant. Personal law is just beliefs that you actually listen to (such as stealing is bad because the Bible says so. Morals are stealing is bad because either I say so or because everyone else says so). And just because you can accept reality doesn't mean things can't go wrong. I can accept the fact that people die, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to miss the people who die.
As for the rest of the shit I wrote, it was something to do with morals, but I don't remember the point I was trying to get at there.
So "personal law" are just thoughts you keep having while "morals" are thoughts other people keep having. Got it.
My original point is the fact that if results do not match expectations for a specific course of action then it is a failure within the system of expectation rather than a fundamental flaw in the universe.
I don't see how imaginary things like "morals" or the whether or not we miss people when they die have anything to do with my point.
Everything goes according to "natural law" and that is the "right" way for things to go?
Explain then please, accidents, natrual disasters and the like.....
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 07:19:52 PM
Quote from: K-Scar on March 19, 2008, 06:55:08 PM
I know humans are animals, that's what I meant. Personal law is just beliefs that you actually listen to (such as stealing is bad because the Bible says so. Morals are stealing is bad because either I say so or because everyone else says so). And just because you can accept reality doesn't mean things can't go wrong. I can accept the fact that people die, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to miss the people who die.
As for the rest of the shit I wrote, it was something to do with morals, but I don't remember the point I was trying to get at there.
So "personal law" are just thoughts you keep having while "morals" are thoughts other people keep having. Got it.
My original point is the fact that if results do not match expectations for a specific course of action then it is a failure within the system of expectation rather than a fundamental flaw in the universe.
I don't see how imaginary things like "morals" or the whether or not we miss people when they die have anything to do with my point.
Oh, nothing, really. I just wanted to know what a Moralist felt like. Know what? Makes you feel like a dumbass. As yes, morals are what other people tell you, though there is actually the rare moment where you come up with your own thoughts.
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 07:19:52 PM
Quote from: Jenne on March 19, 2008, 07:00:14 PMCan you define what you mean by natural law?
I don't have a better word for it, but by "natural law" I mean the way things work in IRL. Gravity, thermodynamics, all that physics and cosmological stuff that we've barely begun to understand. This includes all those things we haven't figured out yet, as well.
Quote from: K-Scar on March 19, 2008, 06:55:08 PM
I know humans are animals, that's what I meant. Personal law is just beliefs that you actually listen to (such as stealing is bad because the Bible says so. Morals are stealing is bad because either I say so or because everyone else says so). And just because you can accept reality doesn't mean things can't go wrong. I can accept the fact that people die, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to miss the people who die.
As for the rest of the shit I wrote, it was something to do with morals, but I don't remember the point I was trying to get at there.
So "personal law" are just thoughts you keep having while "morals" are thoughts other people keep having. Got it.
My original point is the fact that if results do not match expectations for a specific course of action then it is a failure within the system of expectation rather than a fundamental flaw in the universe.
I don't see how imaginary things like "morals" or the whether or not we miss people when they die have anything to do with my point.
Ok, this explains much to me. Thanks for explaining further on these points.
Quote from: Khara on March 19, 2008, 07:24:06 PM
Everything goes according to "natural law" and that is the "right" way for things to go?
Explain then please, accidents, natrual disasters and the like.....
You're putting emphasis on the word "right" for some reason. Do you mean it in some special use of the term? If so, please define.
As for accidents and natural disasters... Name one event that violated the laws of physics.
Quote from: K-Scar on March 19, 2008, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 07:19:52 PM
I don't see how imaginary things like "morals" or the whether or not we miss people when they die have anything to do with my point.
Oh, nothing, really. I just wanted to know what a Moralist felt like. Know what? Makes you feel like a dumbass. As yes, morals are what other people tell you, though there is actually the rare moment where you come up with your own thoughts.
For what it's worth, it's a common mistake. Humans are pack animals, just like dogs and chimpanzees. It's common to confuse the salesman's opinion for one's own. Most people don't bother trying, or even becoming aware of what they're doing.
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 08:05:21 PM
Quote from: K-Scar on March 19, 2008, 07:27:00 PM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 07:19:52 PM
I don't see how imaginary things like "morals" or the whether or not we miss people when they die have anything to do with my point.
Oh, nothing, really. I just wanted to know what a Moralist felt like. Know what? Makes you feel like a dumbass. As yes, morals are what other people tell you, though there is actually the rare moment where you come up with your own thoughts.
For what it's worth, it's a common mistake. Humans are pack animals, just like dogs and chimpanzees. It's common to confuse the salesman's opinion for one's own. Most people don't bother trying, or even becoming aware of what they're doing.
Hm, see, now to me, that begs the question: is there any real difference between the two?
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: Khara on March 19, 2008, 07:24:06 PM
Everything goes according to "natural law" and that is the "right" way for things to go?
Explain then please, accidents, natrual disasters and the like.....
You're putting emphasis on the word "right" for some reason. Do you mean it in some special use of the term? If so, please define.
As for accidents and natural disasters... Name one event that violated the laws of physics.
Right, as in the opposite of wrong.....
...since the laws of nature depend on the individual characters of the things constituting nature, as the things change, then correspondingly the laws will changes. Thus the modern evolutionary view of the physical universe should concieve of the laws of nature as evoloving concurrently with the things constituting the environment. Thus the conception of the Universe as evolving subject to fixed eternal laws regulating all behaviour should be abandoned. (Whitehead 1933, p. 143)
Thereby saying if said laws are subject to change, then there cannot be a wrong nor a right....
It just is.
Quote from: Khara on March 19, 2008, 09:01:27 PM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: Khara on March 19, 2008, 07:24:06 PM
Everything goes according to "natural law" and that is the "right" way for things to go?
Explain then please, accidents, natrual disasters and the like.....
You're putting emphasis on the word "right" for some reason. Do you mean it in some special use of the term? If so, please define.
As for accidents and natural disasters... Name one event that violated the laws of physics.
Right, as in the opposite of wrong.....
...since the laws of nature depend on the individual characters of the things constituting nature, as the things change, then correspondingly the laws will changes. Thus the modern evolutionary view of the physical universe should concieve of the laws of nature as evoloving concurrently with the things constituting the environment. Thus the conception of the Universe as evolving subject to fixed eternal laws regulating all behaviour should be abandoned. (Whitehead 1933, p. 143)
Thereby saying if said laws are subject to change, then there cannot be a wrong nor a right....
It just is.
Oh, so you're saying basically (as concerns natural disasters):
Motherfuckin' bad wind came, blew down my home.
Now the green grass grows.
Bad wind came, blew down my home.
Goddamn goodness knows!
Where green grass grows there can't be wrong.
And goodness knows, there ain't no right!
Ain't no wrong now, ain't no right.
Ain't no wrong now, ain't no right.
Only pleasure and pain. Or some such....
Did you know you have the incorrect unicycle but you're on the right road?
Just saying.
Quote from: Random Probability on March 21, 2008, 12:27:47 AM
Quote from: Khara on March 19, 2008, 09:01:27 PM
Quote from: Random Probability on March 19, 2008, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: Khara on March 19, 2008, 07:24:06 PM
Everything goes according to "natural law" and that is the "right" way for things to go?
Explain then please, accidents, natrual disasters and the like.....
You're putting emphasis on the word "right" for some reason. Do you mean it in some special use of the term? If so, please define.
As for accidents and natural disasters... Name one event that violated the laws of physics.
Right, as in the opposite of wrong.....
...since the laws of nature depend on the individual characters of the things constituting nature, as the things change, then correspondingly the laws will changes. Thus the modern evolutionary view of the physical universe should concieve of the laws of nature as evoloving concurrently with the things constituting the environment. Thus the conception of the Universe as evolving subject to fixed eternal laws regulating all behaviour should be abandoned. (Whitehead 1933, p. 143)
Thereby saying if said laws are subject to change, then there cannot be a wrong nor a right....
It just is.
Oh, so you're saying basically (as concerns natural disasters):
Motherfuckin' bad wind came, blew down my home.
Now the green grass grows.
Bad wind came, blew down my home.
Goddamn goodness knows!
Where green grass grows there can't be wrong.
And goodness knows, there ain't no right!
Ain't no wrong now, ain't no right.
Ain't no wrong now, ain't no right.
Only pleasure and pain.
Or some such....
Did you know you have the incorrect unicycle but you're on the right road?
Just saying.
Actually, I'm not saying that at all, you titled this "There is no wrong" I asked if that made everything right. You asked what I meant by right, I explained.
You can't have one without the other.
No order without chaos just as no chaos without order. They may not balance each other, but they both have to exist!
The opinion of Dr. Ernst Durrnacker:
Quote"...You speak of the quantum...The great Wolfgang Pauli once asked his students, 'Why did the electron tunnel across the voltage potential?' And he answered, 'Because it had a 1.4559% chance of doing so!' Ha-ha! No, wait, I have that wrong...it should be 'Because the turnpike was closed.'"
"At all events, it is never enough to examine only the specific and the particular. No, for the universal whole is greater than the sum of its particulars. Echoes of the past coexist with echoes from the future. They are like waves; they intersect and form interference patterns. Tell me, do you have black thoughts, or do you fear the dark?"
(We do not know what to say to Dr. Duurnacker. We are embarrassed by his question, and so we do not answer.)
"Well, then, all right. Very well: imagine that time is a duckpond. A pebble falls into the water at one end -- the past -- and another at the far end, which is the future. The ripples from these events propagate throughout time, and where they intersect and interfere strange patterns form. These patterns, they persist, they grow and change. But they are not real things, not ab-original! No, not at all. They arise only from the interactions of disturbances in time, in the Ur-field."
"These patterns, they are you and me. Now I will show you an interesting thing. Put your hand in front of the reading-lamp -- close, close to the bulb. But not so close that you burn yourself!"
"See the light glowing through? The light, even the feeble artificial light, it goes through your skin and your muscle, and through all your tissues. Even through bone! When you are walking down the city pavements in the bright sunshine, the light goes everywhere inside you. There are no areas of absolute darkness inside the human being. None! Time, too, is like that. See how it is? The existence-patterns, they are not apart from the light. They are not apart from time. The universal metempsychosis [meant here in the sense of temporal psychosis]means that past and future permeate us. Permeate and create us. And so there is no cause for alarm! No catastrophe can occur!"
"No, indeed. Within the universal metempsychosis the catastrophes of little pink shoes and thoughtless children mean nothing. See? I am smiling. I smile, and my hands do not tremble."
Of course, I would assert that God's Army in the Congo does wrong things. That is because I am human. If you are an asteroid, say, or a seafloor volcanic vent, then of course there is no wrong. And I -- if I were a shelf of granite gradually eroding away in Patagonia, or, perhaps, a 3-billion-year-old lump of ice laying on the side of a small crater on Pluto's moon Charon -- why, certainly I would agree with you!
However, as a sea-cucumber, I assert that things which hurt me are wrong. I especially hate those steely hook thingies that one sometimes ingests by accident, and which get embedded in one's hindgut. Those things are just
wrong!. Bad and wrong.
So it goes.
~~ Jack of Turnips
Quote from: Khara on March 21, 2008, 01:45:43 PM
Actually, I'm not saying that at all, you titled this "There is no wrong" I asked if that made everything right. You asked what I meant by right, I explained.
You can't have one without the other.
No order without chaos just as no chaos without order. They may not balance each other, but they both have to exist!
Ah, in that case, you're not even riding a motorcycle.
I said, "Nothing can go wrong" not "there is no wrong". Major difference.
Whether you think something is right or wrong is largely a matter of opinion, and therefore imaginary.
Balance is another imaginary concept. It might help if you try and realize that there is no order or chaos, either. Things just are.
Aaaagh.
Stop wiff da tr00fs. :lol:
*hates reading/hearing/saying there is no order or chaos*
Maybe because I'm feeling VERY chaotic atm.
[Pedant]
All is Chaos.
In Chaos, we imaging Order and Disorder.
But they are illusions in the greater Chaos.
(translation: get yr fuckin terms right, fuckos!)
[/Pedant]