Novels with appendices... are they necessary? If the material is truly important, it should be in the actual story, no?
Opinions?
Books are like people.
If you don't like it, rip it out.
I enjoyed the appendicies of Infinite Jest more than the book itself.
Quote from: LMNO on May 01, 2008, 07:42:45 PM
I enjoyed the appendicies of Infinite Jest more than the book itself.
What was their function in the novel? Were they central to the plot?
Obviously, you've never read Infinite Jest.
That's not a dis-- it's actually incredibly difficult to describe a "plot" of any sort.
Quote from: LMNO on May 01, 2008, 08:19:02 PM
Obviously, you've never read Infinite Jest.
That's not a dis-- it's actually incredibly difficult to describe a "plot" of any sort.
No, I've actually never even heard of it, that I can recall.
A book I am working on was going to include appendices, but a few friends tried to nix the idea... which is why I am asking for opinions. As I've said before, I prefer the appendices of Illuminatus to the rest of the book...
You like it?
Why consider not having them then?
Fuck people's opinions.
In my opinion, the appendices are like a collective of notes that could have created too much of a distraction in the main novelization, but is still valuable data to the storyline...IF you want to read them.
If it's a heavily plot-driven story that relies on massive amounts of backstory and history that will get in the way, use an appendix.
Or you can use it in a very post-modern way, and mess with the form. Cf: the footnotes in Discworld & The Widow's Son, Infinite Jest, et al.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on May 01, 2008, 08:32:33 PM
You like it?
Why consider not having them then?
Fuck people's opinions.
This is what I've been thinking... but I have a strange irrational fear of being considered pretentious.
Quote from: LMNO on May 01, 2008, 08:35:59 PM
If it's a heavily plot-driven story that relies on massive amounts of backstory and history that will get in the way, use an appendix.
Or you can use it in a very post-modern way, and mess with the form. Cf: the footnotes in Discworld & The Widow's Son, Infinite Jest, et al.
Not really plot heavy, but there IS a lot of backstory.
Quote from: Hoopla on May 01, 2008, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 01, 2008, 08:35:59 PM
If it's a heavily plot-driven story that relies on massive amounts of backstory and history that will get in the way, use an appendix.
Or you can use it in a very post-modern way, and mess with the form. Cf: the footnotes in Discworld & The Widow's Son, Infinite Jest, et al.
Not really plot heavy, but there IS a lot of backstory.
Will it get in the way, can you incorporate it into the main story?
Quote from: Hoopla on May 01, 2008, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on May 01, 2008, 08:32:33 PM
You like it?
Why consider not having them then?
Fuck people's opinions.
This is what I've been thinking... but I have a strange irrational fear of being considered pretentious.
Too late.
There, fear gone, go write.
Appendices are cool. Also, you should strive to be as pretentious as possible!
I liked the footnotes in the Bartimaeus Trilogy and the Discworld series. But an appendix in the back...
The only time I've ever encountered such a thing was in LoTR, and it really felt like TMI. Cool, a short story about Arwen and Aragorn. Publish it in your Tales of Middle Earth anthology. And whole alphabets? Multiple alphabets? That's just excessive now.
If one can read your book, skip the appendix, and not lose much enjoyment, the index probably is a waste.
On the other hand, WoT really could have used an index so I could keep all 600 named characters straight.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on May 01, 2008, 10:53:19 PM
If one can read your book, skip the appendix, and not lose much enjoyment, the index probably is a waste.
OR, it could be considered gravy?
WoT could have used a lot of things. Like 6 fewer books.
The idea of an appendix is usually "This is related information, but doesn't have a *direct* bearing on the story at hand" if it's fictional, or "This is related information which is useful to have, but doesn't necessarily need to be read" if non-fictional.
I've read some books where the appendix was really useful, enjoyable, and an interesting read. Then there have been some where I've read a bit of it and understood why it wasn't included in the main text: it sucked.
I think it depends partly on the type of tone you're trying to set in the book if it's fiction, where an appendix can really lend weight to the idea of a world that really exists outside the confines of the story. If it's nonfiction, appendices are neat, generally contain interesting information that's only tangentially related, and don't need to be read if people don't want to.
What's the book about and what are its potential appendices?
appendices can also be used for giving a short introduction to required knowledge, like Fourier Theory or Arithmetic Encoding (compression), which is then mentioned in the book with a little footnote "for spags that have never heard of Fourier Theory, see the appendix for a short introduction, continue reading and then get back to school wtf are you thinking, DUDE".
I think the idea of extra material which may help extend the book from purely fictional terms is a good one to go by. As 000 mentioned, if you're referencing certain areas of knowledge that are less well known, it can be an idea to have one.
I would also generally agree the larger the scope and the text, the more likely an appendix will work with the book in question.
In the case of Illuminatus! the publishers told the Bob's that their book had to be cut by *insert large number that I don't remember here*. So they pulled out a lot of material and then, found that they could shove a good portion of it in the appendices.
Maybe you should write your book and let the editor edit it ;-)
Write an appendix or I'll kill myself.
Can you hold back the appendix untill the second edition?
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on May 02, 2008, 01:21:00 AMWhat's the book about and what are its potential appendices?
It's about five people who have 're-written' their lives in varying ways, and to varying degrees of success... the central character is rather eccentric and often spouts off about bizarre circumstances as proof of her ideas - the circumstances are real occurances but sound fictional (Emperor Norton, Cyrus Teed, some strange cases of spontaneous human combustion, etc) also just a few strange throwaway comments from other characters are linked to real life events (like a case of a waitress encountering a strange customer who didn't know how to eat a steak at Max's Kansas City in John Keel's "Mothman Prophesies" to an unnamed waitress, which I claim happened to a character in my book, but will reference Keel).
Also that central character is a Discordian, but only vague references are made throughout... I would go into some more detail about Discordianism.
Also, there is a LOT of backstory that, while technically relevant, doesn't necessarily HAVE to be told to tell the story, so I thought I could add some of it in there.
Plus, the outcomes of the lives of strictly minor characters, but not major ones - which I just find funny.
What do you think? Appendix worthy?
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
Plus, the outcomes of the lives of strictly minor characters, but not major ones - which I just find funny.
What do you think? Appendix worthy?
Yes, people are about characters that are initially minor (See: Boba Fett, Janitor, Jesus)
Quote from: Dido on May 02, 2008, 02:05:40 PM
Can you hold back the appendix untill the second edition?
Your optimism amuses me.
Optimism?
Quote
Write an appendix or I'll kill myself.
If you say so.
In summation: The best part of your book would be where I kill myself.
That's the best part of any book.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on May 02, 2008, 02:26:30 PM
In summation: The best part of your book would be where I kill myself.
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:27:32 PM
That's the best part of any book.
demonstration:
John Stalvern waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were demons in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to Cernel Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a space marine for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the spaceships and he said to dad "I want to be on the ships daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the space station base of the UAC he knew there were demons.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "You must fight the demons!"
So John gotted his palsma rifle and blew up the wall.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the demons
"I will shoot at him" said the cyberdemon and he fired the rocket missiles. John plasmaed at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the demons" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the demons"
And then John was a zombie.And then Hunter killed himself.
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on May 02, 2008, 01:21:00 AMWhat's the book about and what are its potential appendices?
It's about five people who have 're-written' their lives in varying ways, and to varying degrees of success... the central character is rather eccentric and often spouts off about bizarre circumstances as proof of her ideas - the circumstances are real occurances but sound fictional (Emperor Norton, Cyrus Teed, some strange cases of spontaneous human combustion, etc) also just a few strange throwaway comments from other characters are linked to real life events (like a case of a waitress encountering a strange customer who didn't know how to eat a steak at Max's Kansas City in John Keel's "Mothman Prophesies" to an unnamed waitress, which I claim happened to a character in my book, but will reference Keel).
Also that central character is a Discordian, but only vague references are made throughout... I would go into some more detail about Discordianism.
Also, there is a LOT of backstory that, while technically relevant, doesn't necessarily HAVE to be told to tell the story, so I thought I could add some of it in there.
Plus, the outcomes of the lives of strictly minor characters, but not major ones - which I just find funny.
What do you think? Appendix worthy?
It sounds like the perfect disguise for the actual point which is, in fact, the appendix.
Quote from: Dido on May 02, 2008, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on May 02, 2008, 01:21:00 AMWhat's the book about and what are its potential appendices?
It's about five people who have 're-written' their lives in varying ways, and to varying degrees of success... the central character is rather eccentric and often spouts off about bizarre circumstances as proof of her ideas - the circumstances are real occurances but sound fictional (Emperor Norton, Cyrus Teed, some strange cases of spontaneous human combustion, etc) also just a few strange throwaway comments from other characters are linked to real life events (like a case of a waitress encountering a strange customer who didn't know how to eat a steak at Max's Kansas City in John Keel's "Mothman Prophesies" to an unnamed waitress, which I claim happened to a character in my book, but will reference Keel).
Also that central character is a Discordian, but only vague references are made throughout... I would go into some more detail about Discordianism.
Also, there is a LOT of backstory that, while technically relevant, doesn't necessarily HAVE to be told to tell the story, so I thought I could add some of it in there.
Plus, the outcomes of the lives of strictly minor characters, but not major ones - which I just find funny.
What do you think? Appendix worthy?
It sounds like the perfect disguise for the actual point which is, in fact, the appendix.
You may have a point.
Quote from: triple zero on May 02, 2008, 02:43:19 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on May 02, 2008, 02:26:30 PM
In summation: The best part of your book would be where I kill myself.
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:27:32 PM
That's the best part of any book.
demonstration:
John Stalvern waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were demons in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to Cernel Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a space marine for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the spaceships and he said to dad "I want to be on the ships daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the space station base of the UAC he knew there were demons.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "You must fight the demons!"
So John gotted his palsma rifle and blew up the wall.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the demons
"I will shoot at him" said the cyberdemon and he fired the rocket missiles. John plasmaed at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the demons" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the demons"
And then John was a zombie.
And then Hunter killed himself.
Zippletits wins an internet.
Quote from: Dido on May 02, 2008, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on May 02, 2008, 01:21:00 AMWhat's the book about and what are its potential appendices?
It's about five people who have 're-written' their lives in varying ways, and to varying degrees of success... the central character is rather eccentric and often spouts off about bizarre circumstances as proof of her ideas - the circumstances are real occurances but sound fictional (Emperor Norton, Cyrus Teed, some strange cases of spontaneous human combustion, etc) also just a few strange throwaway comments from other characters are linked to real life events (like a case of a waitress encountering a strange customer who didn't know how to eat a steak at Max's Kansas City in John Keel's "Mothman Prophesies" to an unnamed waitress, which I claim happened to a character in my book, but will reference Keel).
Also that central character is a Discordian, but only vague references are made throughout... I would go into some more detail about Discordianism.
Also, there is a LOT of backstory that, while technically relevant, doesn't necessarily HAVE to be told to tell the story, so I thought I could add some of it in there.
Plus, the outcomes of the lives of strictly minor characters, but not major ones - which I just find funny.
What do you think? Appendix worthy?
It sounds like the perfect disguise for the actual point which is, in fact, the appendix.
To be honest, though, no. I've been working on this novel for ten years, off and on (I know.) and only thought about adding appendices sometime last summer.
But, I won't deny that the appendices are somewhat more interesting to me now than the rest of the book... but I suppose thats to be expected.
Quote from: triple zero on May 02, 2008, 02:43:19 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on May 02, 2008, 02:26:30 PM
In summation: The best part of your book would be where I kill myself.
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:27:32 PM
That's the best part of any book.
demonstration:
John Stalvern waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were demons in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to Cernel Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a space marine for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the spaceships and he said to dad "I want to be on the ships daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the space station base of the UAC he knew there were demons.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "You must fight the demons!"
So John gotted his palsma rifle and blew up the wall.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the demons
"I will shoot at him" said the cyberdemon and he fired the rocket missiles. John plasmaed at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the demons" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the demons"
And then John was a zombie.
And then Hunter killed himself.
You know, I always wondered what the Warhammer 40k novels were like...
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on May 02, 2008, 01:21:00 AMWhat's the book about and what are its potential appendices?
It's about five people who have 're-written' their lives in varying ways, and to varying degrees of success... the central character is rather eccentric and often spouts off about bizarre circumstances as proof of her ideas - the circumstances are real occurances but sound fictional (Emperor Norton, Cyrus Teed, some strange cases of spontaneous human combustion, etc) also just a few strange throwaway comments from other characters are linked to real life events (like a case of a waitress encountering a strange customer who didn't know how to eat a steak at Max's Kansas City in John Keel's "Mothman Prophesies" to an unnamed waitress, which I claim happened to a character in my book, but will reference Keel).
Also that central character is a Discordian, but only vague references are made throughout... I would go into some more detail about Discordianism.
Also, there is a LOT of backstory that, while technically relevant, doesn't necessarily HAVE to be told to tell the story, so I thought I could add some of it in there.
Plus, the outcomes of the lives of strictly minor characters, but not major ones - which I just find funny.
What do you think? Appendix worthy?
Another option for fiction is to release short stories based on characters in it! The idea here being, I'm lead to understand, that you can then publish a collection of said stories and not have to worry about writing another novel. Money in the bank!
Would you like to be my agent?
I like the way you think.
If I wasn't so lazy I'd write a book myself. Alas, laziness underwhelms and I have to live vicariously through others instead.
I'd probably make a terrible agent.
Why do you think its taken me 10 years to write the damn thing?
Quote from: Hoopla on May 02, 2008, 07:40:34 PM
Why do you think its taken me 10 years to write the damn thing?
:lulz:
I saw an ad for some "novel writing software" the other day. It claimed to let you do things like "plot your novel" and "start writing from the end of the novel and work backwards!" I'm amazed people think you can't do things like that normally, without special software. Albeit when I looked at the actual specs it seemed more like an organizer than anything else and might have been useful. But they need to word their "benefits" section better.
Plotting: Pshaw!
I am appendix-positive.
Quote from: Nigel on May 03, 2008, 04:00:09 AM
I am appendix-positive.
I'm not. They took mine out :(
It was a really good one too; I was told that it was like 6 inches long.
Damn! That's big.