Blarg!
I enjoy the fact that most of your rants are political.... just make sure to throw in a few that arent every now and then..
given the fact that most of us here have the same views on nearly everything..... it's good to have political speeches by like-mined people...
Quote from: Spoon E. GeeI enjoy the fact that most of your rants are political.... just make sure to throw in a few that arent every now and then..
given the fact that most of us here have the same views on nearly everything..... it's good to have political speeches by like-mined people...
I really can't help it. I am a political junkie of the first water; crackheads shake their heads when they see me, and herion addicts look at me as if they know me.
I frequently wake up in front of CSPAN, caked with my own filth.
It's a sickness, most times...right now, however, it's a
survival trait.
As for non-political rants, I just says what our lady crams into my cranium. The closest I've gotten is the "addiction to speed" sermon, or the "getting over on the bosses" sermon.
I would just like to addition to some things you said.
It is a bad indication, as rednecks of backwoods and neo Nazi groups side with the government of the USA on something. It is a worse indication, if they begin to give up to it rhetoric usual of the announcement of the policy of the USA in favor of the words which sound, as they could come of in administartion... I do not know whether that thinks badly the administration or this crazies, but in any case I can not think any lower of them.
But all it is all simple foreplay, before I receive to my main point.
The whole point of this war must enough of the young person 'Freethinkiners', both literally and figurativly in such a way that those in the strength be able to reach Illumination. Saddam are inside on it because, if it were not, we would go to North Korea.
Quote from: livid E. T.The whole point of this war must enough of the young person 'Freethinkiners', both literally and figurativly in such a way that those in the strength be able to reach Illumination. Saddam are inside on it because, if it were not, we would go to North Korea.
RAW weirdness aside, the only illumination necessary is the profit margin of MacDonald Douglas and Exxon, which are GW Bush's masters.
If you would look on the true face of evil today, however, look at Karl Rove.
Could you tell me a little about this Karl Rove guy?
I just went searching for stuff on him and it all points to him being a political strategist, a tool not a policy maker.
Perhaps this has the makings of a larger conspiracy than what I'm thinking of at the moment.
And as far as profit margins, I see GE, yes General Electric, standing to profit most from this war. Last time I checked they owned NBC, and were one of the largest weapons manufacturers and they've got their hands in oil just like everyone else. They just get to sell airtime and airpower in the coming days...
Quote from: livid E. T.Could you tell me a little about this Karl Rove guy?
I just went searching for stuff on him and it all points to him being a political strategist, a tool not a policy maker.
Perhaps this has the makings of a larger conspiracy than what I'm thinking of at the moment.
Karl Rove holds the title of Senior Advisor to the President. He is the single most influential man in American politics today.
He is also a world-class chicken hawk. He dodged the draft during the Vietnam war, but he is the single most eager man when it comes to THIS war. Of course, HE won't be going...YOU might, though (provided you are a young American male).
I like political ranting; there's no reason why we shouldn't talk about politics here (other than reasons of paranoia, of course). If you go to most forums that don't have a strictly political agenda, you will find that a good portion of the people there are usually fascist morons. Even if there are only a few fascist morons, they are loud and obnoxious enough to make the whole place a living hell for the rest of the people there. Unlike at most forums, the people here generally have a clue.
So, it's a bit like preaching to the choir, but who cares?
I think if it weren't for the stunning hypocrisy of US policies, it wouldn't depress me so much; it is the blatant subversion of ideals by the Bush administration that bothers me. America is dead. We didn't need Iraq or weapons of mass destruction to destroy us; our own leaders did it to us. The dream is dead.
IMHO, political discourse is not only appropriate here, but required. As many of you know, when I started posting to these forums, I was all for war with Iraq (and Iran, and Saudi Arabia, etc). Why? Because I was only getting information that was spoon-fed to me from the media. This whole debate about "Left-Wing Media Bias" vs. "Fox News Channel" and these majority of AM talk-radio guys, is just a mirage. No, more likely it is a distraction.
You see, the Left (CNN, The NY Times, etc) seem to be favoring the peace movement, while 'lambasting' Bush and his cronies. Meanwhile, the Right whines on endlessly about never getting their message out, and of the Left's supposed bias.
But when the shit hits the fan, they will all line up and get their pablum of information from the same source: The Pentagon. Whatever spin they inevitably try to put on the news, in the end it will be the same exact information, presented in the manner which will achieve the highest possible ratings or profits for said outlet. For them, it is ultimately about money, not truth.
Anyway, while I still watch the news and listen to a couple of talk-radio guys (for the humor value, mostly), I have started thinking for myself. Why? Because of the issues raised in this and other forums I frequent, as well as my own research into the current events.
The result: I no longer support a war with Iraq, at least at this time. Why? If I don't trust Bush to have the American citizen's best interests at heart, why would I think he has the world's best interests at heart, by going to war? The American populous were the first victims of Bush's tyranny (although I recognize he isn't really in charge, I will still refer to him as the Tyrant), and now that is going to be spread worldwide. Lovely. Now you, too can know the wonder of living under the Patriot Act! And coming soon, "Patriot Act II: The Death of Freedom"...
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
"War hath no fury like a non-combatant"
--E.C. Montague
"Where they have made a desert, they call it peace"
--Tacitus
A German proverb states that, "In time of war, the devil makes more room in hell". Well, friends, I suggest you reserve your room now, before the rush.
With the likes of those who are currently earning their eternal torments, you will NEED a reservation.
Donald Rumsfeld, for example, already has so much blood on his hands that he has forgotten what it smells like. From selling Saddam 800 liters of anthrax seed-stock in the 80's, to his ideas on moving MX missile silos as close to population centers as possible, this walking abomination already has HIS burning pit laid out.
He is FAR from being the worst criminal in the administration. The entire cabinet is a virtual "who's who" of the criminally insane. Powell was involved in the attempted cover up of the My Lai massacre of 1968, Cheney sold Saddam chemical equipment from 1996-2000, and Karl Rove...Well, you get the point.
"Now hold on, Rev Roger", you say, "This ain't a political site! This here's a discordian site! What the hell are you doing getting all political on us?"
Well, I have bad news, kids. The Man doesn't CARE if you like haiku or word association. He doesn't CARE if you are a free thinking poet who likes a little chaos. He doesn't even care that you haven't had your rightful share of prairie squid yet.
He's gonna draft ya anyway.
That's right, kids! Once the war is over and the occupation begins, Uncle Sugar is gonna need a lot more sniper-bait, more meat for the grinder, grist for the mill. Kids are gonna be expected to give their all, maybe even their lives, for their oil company...Oops, I mean their country. And guess who those lucky kids are? Well, if you are living in America, and you are between the ages of 18-30, that means YOU are those lucky kids! Actually, the draft age is 18-36, but the army likes 'em young.
THAT'S why the Good Reverend is so political.
These are dangerous times. While America seems strong, it is actually like a mighty oak tree that has been struck by lightning. It's still plenty strong on the outside, but the inside is dead. The fundamental strenght of America is Americans...and those are mighty thin on the ground right now. What we have instead is the Dittoheads...the Rush Limbaugh fans.
We think you know who we're talking about, Mister CNN anchorperson, SIR! Miss "If there's a war, the stock market will go up", MA'AM! Mister "If you are against the war, you're un-American", SIR!
Damn straight. These "good Americans" who are howling for war are NOT the people who are going to have to go fight it. Why the hell should they? They have YOU for that, or at least for the occupation (which, incidentally will be headed by an interim government led by an American civilian, apparently). They will (supposedly) enjoy an economic boom caused by the war (although the economy went DOWN during Gulf War I) while you get your ass shot off in Basra, while you hold down the natives so that Standard Oil has time to suck all the Iraqi oil out of the ground.
Sound like crazy talk? Yup, it is. So make sure you line your Kevlar helmet with tin-foil, so you don't have to think about these things while you scratch your sand-fleas and wonder where the next suicide bomber is coming from.
Or kill me.
<tansmission ends>
Hmmmmmmm, this gives me an idea for a thread topic...
Quote from: Velvet JesusAmerica is dead. We didn't need Iraq or weapons of mass destruction to destroy us; our own leaders did it to us. The dream is dead.
You make a good point, but don't let it get you down.
Americans are like crabgrass...if even a BIT survives, we tend to come back.
The problem, of course, is keeping that bit alive in the face of a tyrant, a right wing electorate, and Madison Avenue.
America is dead but humanity lives on (for now)...
Quote from: MapleManAmerica is dead but humanity lives on (for now)...
Not dead. Just very, very ill.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Americans are like crabgrass...if even a BIT survives, we tend to come back.
True. We
are rather like weeds. :P
:evil: :x :twisted: :evil: :x :twisted: :evil: :x :twisted: :x :twisted: :P :P :P
What am I that I should be...
The Object of your emnity...
Now that you have come for me
There's no-one left you can abuse
Our values now have bled us dry
In paradigms that only lie
While our souls are burned to dust
Our future's stripped away
Controversy is the key
That shows us things we will not see
And common-sense shall breed dissent
For this what it says:
Rules, Break the rules...
Unchain the fools
And FUCK THE WHOLE CONVENTION!
Rules, Break the rules
Release the news
And shock the whole foundation!
There it is folks, genuine bona-fide Trollaxian dissent distilled into a neat little eda of disgruntled angst and directed rage...
Our governments have lost their common sense, and clad in their psychic armor they broil the spirit of our nations in the sun, then crawl away to a dark place when they are done.
Common sense does not say kill them all, common sense says: "KILLING FOR PEACE IS LIKE SCREWING FOR VIRGINITY."
Common sense tells us that the most powerful man in the world is a sociopathic, dishonest illiterate half-wit with the brains of a randy marmoset scrambled around until they're extra crispy.
Common sense doesn't say chain yourself to a tree or form a tent embassy out the front of a government building. Common sense says: "MAKE IT RIGHT BY PLAYING THEIR GAME RIGHT INTO YOUR HANDS."
We can't make it better by walking out and making a racket and throwing tantrums. The best way to nutralise our idiotic world "Leaders" ( :lol: ) is by ensuring peace breaks out everywhere.
So Jews, Hug a palestinean.
Catholics, Go have a beer with a protestant.
Discordians, Have coffee and cake with a greyface...
And make sure that it makes the news and doesn't get F&*^ed around with to seem like the exact opposite.
UNchaion the fools because this hHellion's Coming out swingin!!!
~TRollax~
Interestingly enough, I attended an anti-war rally held at my campus earlier today. Not a large crowd but it's not a large city, and there's mostly rednecks around here anyways. Considering it was -25 C without the wind (which was a real bitch btw) I figured it was a decent turnout. Now to my rant :D
The world is learning my friends, in fact the world has been slowly learning since the end of US isolationism. The world has been learning that the United States is NOT free, is NOT democratic and is mainly selfish and ignorant.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the States are an Empire, the bully on the playground. But guess what, the other little kids start to get pissed off, on soon enough that bully gets the shit kicked outta them (pardon the language). The day will come when the US will fall, and some other power will rise in its place (I'm going to guess an Asian power). I just hope that sometime soon the world learns more, learns that the cycle has to stop, that we can't stop beating the shit out of each other, cause the bruises don't heal as easily as they used to.
You know, I'm not totally against the war on Iraq.
For one, I dont like Saddam Hussein.
For two, if this war is about economic power and oil... I dont feel like I have a problem with it.
What I have a problem with is the fact that A: our leader is an idiot and B: americans are selfish and self deluded.
If you drop bombs on a country, and then say that its because that country is run by a dictator who supports terrorism... what do you do about all of the other fascist states that exist in this day and age? Are we (americans) going to personally improve the way of life in the middle east... or how about africa/south america/asia/everywhere else in the 3rd world. Thats stupid, its not even a believable lie.
How about this? We (americans) drop bombs on Iraq and actually admit that its about Oil and Power. I'd be down for that, its not dishonest at all. If we're going to improve our status as world power, and take out some asshole, thats fine with me... but I wont support it if I'm being lied to and abused (Like I am.)
Thats how I feel right now.
I just think its stupid that the US is trying to delude itself into thinking its some kind of moral/ethical authority. Its not, nor does it need to be.
I'm glad you don't support a war with Iraq, even if you're not totally against it. However, any war against Iraq, even if it's an honest one as you proposed, will mean the death of millions of honest Iraqi civilians. I'd love for the States to be honest about its foreign policy, but honesty doesn't entail them to destroy innocent lives.
Sure Saddam's a jerk, no bigger a jerk than Dubya, but he still needs to be dealt with firmly. How about the US invests all the money it would spend in taking down Saddam's regime and instead hire ONE guy to go out and kill Saddam. For God's Sake man, no one's that tough to kill, I mean we almost killed Hitler and he was much harder to get at. If Saddam's the problem, get Saddam. I'm sure if THE most powerful nation in the entire globe wanted a SINGLE person dead, they could have him dead. Maybe instead of US intelligence agencies investing all their budget on supporting the US drug industry they could spend a few million disposing the world of a feudal dictator.
But I'm being rational, the US isn't going after Iraq to free them of Saddam, they could easily get rid of Saddam. It's about politics, a war for the Dubya means popularity, take focus away from the home front (a war he's losing) and away from the disintegrating US economy.
Gulf War II will mean the death of thousands and potentially millions of bystanders, mainly Iraqi. It will be much uglier than Gulf War I, which wasn't necessarily pretty. This War is gonna be nasty, too many will die or have their lives ruined, and it doesn't matter whether or not they die honestly.
In short, Z^3, I'm kind of shocked that you would support a war if only the US government was honest about it. I wonder if the Iraqis are "down with" having their country decimated by US bombings (whose economy and infrastructre has already been destroyed by the strongest embargo in history). Now, I don't think Joe Q. Iraqi is too 'cool' with coming home from work and finding a US smart bomb smashed through his daughter's bedroom. Is it the Iraqis fault they're being oppressed? I would think not, they can be oppressed or dead, or if America has it their way oppressed then dead.
Now if I misinterpreted your post please correct me.
Quote from: ZombieZombieZombieYou know, I'm not totally against the war on Iraq.
For one, I dont like Saddam Hussein.
For two, if this war is about economic power and oil... I dont feel like I have a problem with it.
All I can say in reply is:
1. Saddam is a monster. I don't like him either...but we have many monsters as ALLIES too, don't we? Besides, who made us the world's cop?
2. On the oil issue; please tell me you don't approve of using war as armed robbery writ large. If we go in for oil, we are no different than Saddam was in 1990.
Quote from: ZombieZombieZombieI just think its stupid that the US is trying to delude itself into thinking its some kind of moral/ethical authority. Its not, nor does it need to be.
Are you suggesting that we have all the authority we need because we CAN?
The question I'm asking myself is... Is Saddam really that terrible?
Remember that about all the info we get about him are strongly biased western stories.
Sure he's an evil dictator, but SO IS EVERY OTHER LEADER OF ANY NATION.
But the main problem I have about the war on Iraq is...
The fact that the US didn't have the common decency to finish their previous war before starting another one...
First Al-Qaeda or whatever destroyed some stuff in the US.
The US retaliates by paying a visit to Afghanistan.
so far so good, if MY country got attacked, I'd want some revenge as well...
And then suddenly Bin Laden and his Hooky Crew are out of the picture and it's all Saddam's fault.
Saddam was just sitting there in his Gulf-State, enjoying bossing people around and minding his own business, and the next minute he's promoted to the devil incarnate in the eyes of the western world.
SADDAM IS NO TERRORIST!
SADDAM DOES NOT SEND OUT TERRORISTS!
BIN LADEN AND SADDAM DON'T EVEN LIKE EACH OTHER!
He tried to expand his borders and his wallet a bit by attacking Kuweit a few years back, and got his ass kicked in return.
Now he just turned into a handy scapegoat.
I am and will remain 105% against the war on Iraq.
I don't give a shit about the thousands of possible dead innocents.
I just follow my instincts, and when every cell in my body screams that this war should not happen, then I listen to my genetic code.
Weapons of mass destruction my ass...
oh, and
QuoteAre you suggesting that we have all the authority we need because we CAN?
This is the basics of all human behaviour, human culture, human evolution and human history.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: ZombieZombieZombieI just think its stupid that the US is trying to delude itself into thinking its some kind of moral/ethical authority. Its not, nor does it need to be.
Are you suggesting that we have all the authority we need because we CAN?
Not exactly. I just notice how the people in politics who use morality and ethics as the basis of their standpoint are full of shit. Morality and Ethics has absolutely nothing to do with politics for these people, its just a tool that they use to manipulate the masses into self righteousness.
It had just occured to me that the united states remains blissfully ignorant about a lot of things. When september 11th happen we were urged not to let the terrorists win, not to change. Thats a little fucked up, because change is necessary. We need to understand why these people hate us enough to destroy our buildings, the american people NEED to know WHY things happen rather than just trusting to government to blow up the people responsible. So we go on, not understanding why the rest of the world hates us, secure in the belief that we are absolutely right and that anyone who isnt with us is against us.
Americans are arrogant and self righteous, and so are our politicians. Worse yet, americans are dishonest with themselves about all of this, they blame the rest of the world rather than looking inward and examining themselves.
If france wont support us, they support terrorism... etc
So what we have done, is gone on a vindictive rampage in the middle east, without understanding or educating ourselves to why the initial event happened in the first place. We pump ourselves up by buying flags, and patriotic T-shirts, and our president does everything his power to paint our enemies as the true form of evil (he's really colorful about that). So we get all pumped up on that too, because that makes us righteous.
Its disgusting.
Quote from: ZombieZombieZombieSo what we have done, is gone on a vindictive rampage in the middle east, without understanding or educating ourselves to why the initial event happened in the first place. We pump ourselves up by buying flags, and patriotic T-shirts, and our president does everything his power to paint our enemies as the true form of evil (he's really colorful about that). So we get all pumped up on that too, because that makes us righteous.
Its disgusting.
I would say that many of our politicians feel that way, and some of our more Rush Limbaugh-ish citizens are...but they do not do it in my name, though they remain convinced that they do.
QuoteAmericans are arrogant and self righteous, and so are our politicians. Worse yet, americans are dishonest with themselves about all of this, they blame the rest of the world rather than looking inward and examining themselves.
Not just americans...
Just about every human being on this planet fits that description...
(when this sentence is taken out of the whole war-context)
And yes, of course I fit that description as much as anybody else.
Americans are just more
extravagant about it in general.
But in the end, everyone thinks that they are right and the others are wrong, and blame others instead of themselves...
It can be on an individual level, but is most often seen as the mindless "US Vs THEM" mob mentality.
The principle stays the same...
Everyone I know who is right always agrees with ME!
(Page 00032, bottom of page. Not just a blank-space filler you know)
I dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...
Quote from: MapleManI dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...
nah, saddam is pretty bad. When shiite muslims confronted him about some issues at one of his conferences he nonchalantly ordered them taken outside and shot. This was televised.
Yes, it was anti-iraq propaganda... but that sort of stuff is difficult to fake.
I might not support going to war with him, but he's still a dickhead.
Quote from: MapleManI dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...
Oh, monsters exist, all right. Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Hussien...they're out there. The problem is, SH hasn't attacked us, and who made us the world's cop?
We have problems of our own.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: MapleManI dont think sadam is any more evil or a monster than any one of us... i iknow im gonna be accused of naievity (sp) etc but wth i just dont think anyone is...
Oh, monsters exist, all right. Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Hussien...they're out there. The problem is, SH hasn't attacked us, and who made us the world's cop?
We have problems of our own.
Exactly.
As soon as the World Trade Centers were taken down the first thought in my head was "That's just not right." But my second thought was "What did the Americans do to have this happen to them?"
I remember watching media coverage and hearing news anchor after news anchor explain the attacks on the basis of "they're jealous of our freedom", "they hate freedom", "they despise democracy". Who in their right mind would say anyone hates freedom? American media was assuming the terrorists did this act either unprovoked, or simply because they hated the "free world".
I'm sorry but planes don't just fall out of the sky. The attacks were not acts of aggression, they were acts of retalliation for 50 years of crippling US foreign policy. As much as the attacks were wrong in every sense of the word, it was the US who brought this upon themselves.
It seems that the US still holds that it is the terrorists who must be changed, who must be converted to democracy. But it is America who must change, it is the US who must take a policy of peace instead of war. The terrorism will not be curbed by more counter-attacks, it's a downwards spiral.
Were all motivated by the same things when it comes down to it, nobody is a monster none of those you named are exceptions.
Quote from: MapleManWere all motivated by the same things when it comes down to it, nobody is a monster none of those you named are exceptions.
I disagree, but I approach this from a different standpoint.
Yes, humans are all motivated by essentially the same thing, and thats self preservation and interest. But there are distinguishing characteristics about how people approach it, and how much they look out for other people as well as themselves.
Because I am opinionated, and believe myself to have a small grasp of what is "right" and "wrong" according to my own ethics/morality/honor... I reserve the right to apply the label "monster" to anything that grossly defies that.
Funny, how I'd apply that label to my countries own leader for helping turn that nation into a theocracy.
But the way people aproach things is based on both there situation and who they are neither of whitch they choose, now you might claim that they do choose who they are and they do choose there situation, but those choices all stem from there situation and themselves, which stem's from there situation and themselves, and so on and so forth.
Quote from: MapleManBut the way people aproach things is based on both there situation and who they are neither of whitch they choose, now you might claim that they do choose who they are and they do choose there situation, but those choices all stem from there situation and themselves, which stem's from there situation and themselves, and so on and so forth.
No offense, but...RUBBISH! (John Cleese voice) We are all motivated by the same basic drives...however, how we
respond to those drives is entirely a matter of choice. We have drives, not instincts. Instincts cannot be disobeyed, drives can.
Otherwise, the entire human population would act just like Hitler.
Quote from: khagan
I'm sorry but planes don't just fall out of the sky. The attacks were not acts of aggression, they were acts of retalliation for 50 years of crippling US foreign policy. As much as the attacks were wrong in every sense of the word, it was the US who brought this upon themselves.
Isn't that kind-of like saying that the Palestinians have brought the wrath of the Israelis down upon themselves, by conducting suicide attacks upon the Jewish state? It's a "Chicken and Egg" problem: Which came first, the invasive US foreign policy in the Middle-East, or the unfriendly Islamic states against which these policies are aimed? Same goes for the Israeli-Palestinian issue.
The Middle-Eastern states say the US started it, by sticking our noses in where it wasn't wanted. We say we stuck our noses in, to stop the spread of Communism, Islamic Fundamentalism, and to protect our friend Israel. So who is right?
I don't know, either.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: MapleManBut the way people aproach things is based on both there situation and who they are neither of whitch they choose, now you might claim that they do choose who they are and they do choose there situation, but those choices all stem from there situation and themselves, which stem's from there situation and themselves, and so on and so forth.
No offense, but...RUBBISH! (John Cleese voice) We are all motivated by the same basic drives...however, how we respond to those drives is entirely a matter of choice. We have drives, not instincts. Instincts cannot be disobeyed, drives can.
Otherwise, the entire human population would act just like Hitler.
Heh... its the Gom Jabbar.
can really enjoy your debate:
T H I N K I N G H E L P S ! ! !
ever w0ndered about the fact in a democracy that people are able
to elect/vote for ANY goverment for ANY period of time -
BUT THE DAY AFTER
in a DEMOCRACY people are UNable (not allowed/forbidden) at ANY
time to diselect/cancel/change their votes...
where is the p0wer of the people? when it c0mes up to facts like in
spain: 80% against the iraq-war, prime aznar (bushdog like blair) just
let things happen like god-given! and the really pity about that is people
in arabia didn't receive all that KEY-POINTS.
phantom pope (chANGErANGE)
(http://coolashacka-world.com/stuff/bush_wanted.gif)
phantom pope (911alarm911)
Note: This is the result of several hours of discussion back and forth between two friends, late at night, not sure wether to laugh or cry at the World around them. It was the kind of discussion where world problems are solved. It was the kind of discussion that was biased, reflected, and full of prejudices of every kind. It was the kind of discussion that needed a bar to sit next to, and a pair of refilling pint glasses.
All we had were packets of cigarettes and a couch, with a television droning in the background. But we made do.
Once, some feller told people that the world was round. Then he sailed to India. Only it wasn't India. It was somewhere else instead. Now, in this Somewhere Else Instead, there lived a lot of little red men (as opposed to the little brown men in Africa and other primitive parts of the world, and the little yellow men in China, and the Great White Man in Europe). And the Great White Man did as he always did; he gave the wonders of civilization to the little red men. Now, the Great White Man doesn't always agree with himself, but it was quickly determined that Somewhere Else Instead held great promise and a billion dreams. And the malcontents and the freaks of Europe needed a place to get away from persecution. So they traveled to this Somewhere Else Instead, and found that it stretched far, far north, and far, far west. And they encountered other little red men, and gave them the wonders of civilization. Their price: The land of the little red men. But they graciously allowed the little red men to travel to secluded spots, which they named reservations. After killing those that wouldn't fit in there, of course.
Now, among the Great White Men who came to Somewhere Else Instead, where a few folks who'd decided that a little knowledge was a dangerous thing, and you should listen to your parents, eat your pea soup, and read the Bible of the White Christ (as my viking forefathers called that carpenter from Galileh (sp?) with the idea that people should be nice to one another), and preferably, only the Bible of the White Christ. Along with a few others, they decided that they didn't want anything to do with their oppressors, the Great White Men who'd stayed back in Europe.
Because they had a dream. A dream of freedom and liberty. With capital letters. So they made war, not love, and gained their freedom and their liberty, and men of Vision sat down, and made a brave new country. That this country eventually became the size of the european continent as a whole didn't bother them.
However, as previously noted, a little knowledge is a bad thing, according to some people (among others, the Puritans, who had found that they quite liked the north-eastern part of the land. Because there was, among other things, this cool bird called "turkey" there. Much like the country, but with less sand niggers. But that is neither here nor there). So you have a lot of isolationist, ignorant people who come together and create a country. What do you get, some 400-500 years later? A country to large to effectively govern itself, divided in some fifty states, founded on ignorance and fear, and living on ignorance and fear. The people of this country have freedom to do what they want, including a god-given right to carry firearms and to fire them, and, should the government turn bad, to use against them. Nevermind that the government has, at this point, large tanks and other artillery, and weapons of mass destruction.
Now, humans being humans, in these 400 odd years, there have been some wars. At a point in time, the huge, ignorant mass that was Somewhere Else Instead decided that since little yellow people were attacking them, and a little Great White Man from Austria with a funny moustache was brewing trouble in Europe, they ought to give the old boys in Europe a hand. And so they did. And they also tried out their nifty new toy on some little yellow people on a small island that wasn't to important, because only little yellow people lived there. It was a nifty toy. It was capable of splitting atoms.
Feeling good about themselves for winning the war that the silly Great White Men in Europe had been battling (or so the people of Somewhere Else Instead thought), they decided they'd keep a hand in this "war"-business. Because they were a Power to be Reckoned With now that they had split the atom, and those people in Eastern Europe who was making a bad copy of them were rather threatening, so they needed to keep in shape.
And they did so, never fighting on their own land, but bombing the shit out of a lot of Unimportant Countries with little yellow men, mostly, and getting a nasty bite in the 1970s. But that was ok. Because they were still a Contender!
And then, the Sand Niggers began making trouble. There was another guy with a funny moustache, who tried his hand at this "secular rule"-thingamajig in one of the many little desert lands with little brown people, and decided that since he didn't have a coast line to his land, and there was a small land with a coastline and lots of oil as one of his neighbouring countries (the oil was an unepected bonus), they would probably like to live under his beneficient rule. The people of Somewhere Else Instead didn't agree, and sent a lot of people with Big Fucking Guns to the desert to press buttons and blow shit up. Which was fun. And eventually, the man with the funny moustache sulkily went home. And there was much rejoicing, for the people of Somewhere Else Instead had once again proven that they were right in not trusting people not from Somewhere Else Instead, and that they didn't need to know jack shit. And the guy with a name which bore certain allegorical similarities to Tree was done serving as the leader of this land.
It is a sad fact, as the Son of Mr. Tree rules Somewhere Else Instead, to see that, as often happens, people who were picked on as children grow up to become bullies. The fat and bloated Somewhere Else Instead decides that it has indeed the right to govern the world. After all, they are the biggest free land in the world, because places where little yellow men, or little brown men, or... No, wait, the little red men are all dead or Civilized. Sorry. Places where little yellow men and little brown men rule are of course not free places. One cannot, after all, buy a gun on a street corner in all those places. And when you can buy a gun, it's often because the ruler of that small place is a tyrant who likes his people killing each other. And they get to buy bigger guns.
But luckily, Somewhere Else Instead has the biggest guns.
So, the Son of Tree is tired of talking to other Great White Men from Europe and little men of various colours from the rest of the world. And he sits back from the sandbox, holding his bright and shiny gun up, and says: "It's okay. I rule a land of freedom and democracy, the land of the Right Way, so it's perfectly alright for me to tell other lands how they should be governed, and if I don't like the rulers of those other lands, I know better who should rule there, so I can give those countries to whomever I want. And you are all stupid do-do heads for disagreeing with me. Come on, Tony. Let's kick the ass of that stupid sand nigger."
This little fight started because the unthinkable happened. Someone brought the fight home to Somewhere Else Instead by flying some aeroplanes into some really tall buildings, and because the people of Somewhere Else Instead's lives are worth so much more than the lives of some little brown or yellow people, who go around dying in great numbers everyday anyway, the media gave those areoplanes and those tall buildings a lot of attention.
First, it was decided that a small country housed the guy who did it. It was a Fascist Theocracy. And, as the Son of Tree could've put it: "We don't like your kind 'round here."
So they replaced the unjust theocracy. Hooray!
And then, the Son of Tree said: "Aha! That guy with the funny moustache obviously has a lot in common with the evil priest of the dark god Allah! He's one of dem mos-lems. Let's get him too."
Which was wrong, because the guy with the funny moustache (not the Great White Man, the sand nigger) was very secular, and indeed, the clergy of the dark god Allah frowned upon him because he was not properly into their evil ways.
And this is where we stand now. The guy with the funny moustache says he hasn't got any BFGs, and the Son of Tree says "Yes you do! And now I'm gonna use my BFGs since I can't find yours!"
And the Great White Men of Europe shake their heads and grit their teeth in frustration.
Alright, rant mode off. Needed to get that out.
To reiterate the main points:
- Americans as a whole are stoo-pid. Americans as individuals can be okay, even if the president is a shaved baboon.
- Europeans are a bunch of smart-ass arseholes.
- People who are neither from Europe nor America don't matter.
- The US should stop treating knowledge like an armed bomb, and stop treating armed bombs like candy.
- Hey, US-dweebs! Unlike what you may think, the rest of the world is NOT out to get you. And, we might even find you likeable. If you cut the fucking attitude!
Oops. Slipped into rant mode again.
I'm all done now.
Euphoric
-Norwegian Ninja. I do children's parties.
Quote from: EuphoricAlright, rant mode off. Needed to get that out.
To reiterate the main points:
- Americans as a whole are stoo-pid. Americans as individuals can be okay, even if the president is a shaved baboon.
- Europeans are a bunch of smart-ass arseholes.
- People who are neither from Europe nor America don't matter.
- The US should stop treating knowledge like an armed bomb, and stop treating armed bombs like candy.
- Hey, US-dweebs! Unlike what you may think, the rest of the world is NOT out to get you. And, we might even find you likeable. If you cut the fucking attitude!
1. The majority of Americans did not vote for GW Bush. American as a whole are not stupid, just too cynical to get involved in the political process.
2. Europeans are currently what Americans used to be: Free.
3. People from neither Europe nor America don't matter? REEALLLY? I wonder what the Canadians on this forum would have to say about that? To what level of importance do you relegate the other 89% of humanity?
4. Just because the rest of the world isn't out to get America doesn't mean that GW Bush isn't out to get YOU. This is the year of the monkey...and if it isn't, it should be.
It's the year of the goat; the year of the monkey is 2004.
See? Europeans ARE smart-asses... :wink:
Year of the Ram!
I've said this before.
So it seems that us unimportant Canadians are also smartasses.
Quote from: ListerIt's the year of the goat; the year of the monkey is 2004.
See? Europeans ARE smart-asses... :wink:
No, I was not using the Chinese calendar, I was using the new American calendar. The year of the monkey began on Nov 7, 2000 and will end (I HOPE) on Nov 7, 2004.
It's also the year of the goat, but the goat is US!
If it doesn't, this stoo-pid yet important American will be going someplace unimportant, like Canada. Or maybe Mexico; they have good food and tequila, I'd be pretty well-off, and I don't drink much water anyway.
Quote from: SheckyQuote from: khagan
I'm sorry but planes don't just fall out of the sky. The attacks were not acts of aggression, they were acts of retalliation for 50 years of crippling US foreign policy. As much as the attacks were wrong in every sense of the word, it was the US who brought this upon themselves.
Isn't that kind-of like saying that the Palestinians have brought the wrath of the Israelis down upon themselves, by conducting suicide attacks upon the Jewish state? It's a "Chicken and Egg" problem: Which came first, the invasive US foreign policy in the Middle-East, or the unfriendly Islamic states against which these policies are aimed? Same goes for the Israeli-Palestinian issue.
The Middle-Eastern states say the US started it, by sticking our noses in where it wasn't wanted. We say we stuck our noses in, to stop the spread of Communism, Islamic Fundamentalism, and to protect our friend Israel. So who is right?
I don't know, either.
I believe it was the UN that "stuck their noses" into Palestine, by creating the Jewish State of Israel after WW2. I find it ironic that Israel means "struggle with God", it seems that the Jews have struggled for their entire existence as a people and throwing them into the mess that is the Middle East was just furthering their struggle.
So it was the UN that brought the "wrath" of the Israelis on Palestine. Palestinians now employ suicide attacks simply because they have no alternative. Think about it, how much oppression would it take for you to take your OWN life? It would be a hell of a lot.
US intervention in the Middle East is not as simple as Israel and Palestine though. They have consistently meddled in the foreign affairs of Middle Eastern states for decades now.
So in terms of the chicken and the egg, it was neither. It was, and always will be, the fault of the United States.
Quote from: khaganSo in terms of the chicken and the egg, it was neither. It was, and always will be, the fault of the United States.
Actually, it was the British that set up Isreal.
Blaming the Americans for every bad thing in the world is as goofy as GW Bush excoriating Europe for not acting like good little vassals.
In addition, is the USA the only country that has been meddling in the Muslim world? I think not. We are ALL to blame on this one.
:idea: a stalemate, deadlock would be TWO 2 equally entitled,
with same equal rights balanced, STATES: 1 israel / 1 palestinian
let's say if israel makes trouble - saddam can pressure them
let's say if palestinian makes trouble - usa can pressure d0wn
between them 5km wide strip of UNO-presence in the beginning
just a bit 2 easy to realize into transf0rming it... don't harm me 4 that
phantom pope (C0NflictC0N)
Quote from: phantom pope:
between them 5km wide strip of UNO-presence in the beginning
Not a bad idea, considering the MFO between Egypt and Isreal has kept the peace for 30 years.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: khaganSo in terms of the chicken and the egg, it was neither. It was, and always will be, the fault of the United States.
Actually, it was the British that set up Isreal.
Blaming the Americans for every bad thing in the world is as goofy as GW Bush excoriating Europe for not acting like good little vassals.
In addition, is the USA the only country that has been meddling in the Muslim world? I think not. We are ALL to blame on this one.
No doubt the Brits were under constant pressure from UN and the Jews themselves to create a Jewish homeland state.
I didn't say that it was only the US but I truly believe that the States must take most of the blame for the mess that is the Middle East.
I don't remember voting for George W. Bush, I don't remember supporting the many interventions in the Middle East. All I can seem to remember is going to rally after rally, signing petition after petition, spraying wall after wall to oppose the United States (and MY country's) foreign policy. But I guess I am to blame.
I know I'm not any better than any American, but at least I know that. Americans (and of course I'm generalising) seem to believe they are the only people that are never in error. I don't want to bring all the blame on the States, sure they're not the only nation that is not acting as responsibly as they could. But there must be some responsibility given to the US for the mess in the Middle East and in my humble opinion, the States must receive the majority of this responsibility.
And if you didn't realise it, I was being a bit farcical by the end of my writing, playing on the general sentiment that the "US is evil incarnate".
Quote from: khaganI believe it was the UN that "stuck their noses" into Palestine, by creating the Jewish State of Israel after WW2. I find it ironic that Israel means "struggle with God", it seems that the Jews have struggled for their entire existence as a people and throwing them into the mess that is the Middle East was just furthering their struggle.
So it was the UN that brought the "wrath" of the Israelis on Palestine. Palestinians now employ suicide attacks simply because they have no alternative. Think about it, how much oppression would it take for you to take your OWN life? It would be a hell of a lot.
US intervention in the Middle East is not as simple as Israel and Palestine though. They have consistently meddled in the foreign affairs of Middle Eastern states for decades now.
So in terms of the chicken and the egg, it was neither. It was, and always will be, the fault of the United States.
Okay, just a minute here. At first you said
I believe it was the UN that "stuck their noses" into Palestine, by creating the Jewish State of Israel after WW2, then conclude your statement with
It was, and always will be, the fault of the United States.Isn't that a little contradictory? The U.S. doesn't control the UN (as has been made plain by recent events there), and never has. Anyway, I wasn't trying to lump all of the problems in the Middle East into the Israeli-Palestinian issue.
What I was saying was this: Both sides have their view on who is to blame for the hostilities, and neither is really right. They say we started it, we say they started it, and the whole mess degrades into a childish playground brawl. Much like the Israeli-Palestinian issue has.
That's where the "Chicken and Egg" analogy came in. Which came first? Our invasive foreign policy or their hate-filled policies against our interests in the region? They (and you Khagan) apparantly say the US policies started all of this, but I disagree. This goes back to the original Crusades (in 1055 I belive), which makes this the fault of the Catholic Church!
... Now you know why the Pope is so hell-bent against the war in Iraq! :lol:
Quote from: khaganNo doubt the Brits were under constant pressure from UN and the Jews themselves to create a Jewish homeland state.
I didn't say that it was only the US but I truly believe that the States must take most of the blame for the mess that is the Middle East.
I don't remember voting for George W. Bush, I don't remember supporting the many interventions in the Middle East. All I can seem to remember is going to rally after rally, signing petition after petition, spraying wall after wall to oppose the United States (and MY country's) foreign policy. But I guess I am to blame.
I know I'm not any better than any American, but at least I know that. Americans (and of course I'm generalising) seem to believe they are the only people that are never in error. I don't want to bring all the blame on the States, sure they're not the only nation that is not acting as responsibly as they could. But there must be some responsibility given to the US for the mess in the Middle East and in my humble opinion, the States must receive the majority of this responsibility.
And if you didn't realise it, I was being a bit farcical by the end of my writing, playing on the general sentiment that the "US is evil incarnate".
You are absolutely right on that one. The US government has to answer for a hell of a lot in the Middle East, as well as in other theaters around the world. While our "leaders" like to tout our 'Humanitarian Aid' in places like Africa, they turn around and totally screw the pooch in other areas.
For example, we kept Saddam Hussien in power. We gave him the initial stocks of chemical and biological weapons, ostensibly so he could prevent Iran from overrunning his then-weak military forces (after he had invaded Iran). This led to 8 years of bloody warfare, in which millions of Iranians and Iraqis died horrible deaths. Then, when Hussien was no longer an asset (and he irritated us by invading Kuwait), we stomped his country into rubble.
Another shining example of our government's "wisdom" was our training and arming of Osama bin Laden's forces in Afghanistan. We couldn't allow the Soviets to get a foothold in the region, when they primarily wanted only to stop an Islamic State from setting up shop on their borders. What did we get for our assistance to bin Laden? 9-11.
There are many more examples of our poor foreign policy, but these are all seen through the clarity of hindsight. I remember when Iran took our embassy employees hostage. I also remember the Cold War with Russia. It was these things that brought us to follow a misguided policy known as "The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend". We all know now that Hussien and binLaden were the wrong people to get into bed with, but at the time, I think necessity was all that drove our policy.
The US Government has one primary goal, when it comes to foreign policy: To win, at all costs, especially if we come out with as little blood on our own hands as possible. It isn't right, mind you. It simply is the way they are.
BTW, I didn't vote for Bush, either. I voted for Nader.
First of all Shecky, I'd like to say right on for voting for Nader.
It is, of course, quite easy to criticize the mistakes of the past. However, the strange thing is, people have been opposing US foreign policy for 50 years now. This whole "US blows" mentality is not new, nor is it a fad. Millions around the world have come to the same conclusion, the US is not right in what they are doing. However, to say "that's just the way they are" is not good enough for me.
I often get quite mad with people who give up by saying "that's just the way things are". But things will only be that way as long as we allow them to be. Things must be changed, and things will change. The anger builds, I've no doubt sputtered enough anti-US sentimentality to fill up a rally, and things will only get more emotional.
To tell you the truth, I'm getting pretty tired of the whole "United States" era. I'm just waiting for the day that China and Japan assert their potential as political and economical superpowers. Until then I guess I have to complain about the US. But I figure that in 50 years or so, people will have forgotten about the States and will instead be protesting against the Republic of China or some other Eastern nation.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 05, 2003, 05:58:27 PM
Quote from: Spoon E. GeeI enjoy the fact that most of your rants are political.... just make sure to throw in a few that arent every now and then..
given the fact that most of us here have the same views on nearly everything..... it's good to have political speeches by like-mined people...
I really can't help it. I am a political junkie of the first water; crackheads shake their heads when they see me, and herion addicts look at me as if they know me.
I frequently wake up in front of CSPAN, caked with my own filth.
It's a sickness, most times...right now, however, it's a survival trait.
As for non-political rants, I just says what our lady crams into my cranium. The closest I've gotten is the "addiction to speed" sermon, or the "getting over on the bosses" sermon.
I thought I was the only one who did that.
thank god there's no one here these days who would openly admit to voting for Nader.
You think?