While reading Cram's diatribe on why he puts up posters, something interesting occurred to me:
It seems that everywhere you go, you bump into the strange expectation that what you do has to have some kind of lofty goal; people seem to think if you don't have a Higher Cause in mind, what you're doing is useless.
And yet at the same time, we live in an era of such complacancy and docility as could hardly be imagined just a century ago. People both expect activity to be driven by lofty motivation, and at the same time spend heartbeats watching goddess-damned American Idol.
Either these two trends are simply opposites in a state of dissonance, or they are somehow corelated. As unintuitive as this may seem, the latter seems to make sense in a way.
For humans, like all living things (and most inanimate objects), are not wired to strive for higher causes all of the time. No, we're rather predisposed to hanging out, indulging in selfish pleasure, being lazy and generally not living our lives for impersonal forces or imaginary goals. Yet at the same time the entire thrust of most major Western ideologies of the past 2-3 millennia seems to rest on making people feel guilty for doing what comes naturally to them. Judaism tells you not to eat delicious ham and seafood (and also to thoroughly limit your enjoyment on the Sabbath). Christianity tells you, in many interpretations, to limit your sexual adventures to only the very limited area considered acceptable by the Church. After these had their run for a while (particularly Christianity), the Industrial revolution brought along a new, secular social ethic, which came with a new schooling system, which came with an ethos based entirely on limiting your present indulgence to enjoy future pleasures. Study now so you can succeed later. Do your homework and we'll let you go out tonight.
In small amounts, any of these would be tolerable and probably even succeed in guilting one into limiting themselves, to a point, and focussing on some imaginary goal, to a point. But now I wonder if perhaps at some point we simply overload and go into a state of perpetually unmotivated laziness, believing we should be doing Something For The Greater Good or should even Just Do Something Good For Ourselves, but continually preferring to sit on our asses and grow fat.
I can see this tendancy in myself - the will to ignore whatever has been hammered into my superego and just indulge in inactivity and base physical pleasure. The laziness coupled with an unfaltering belief that I should be doing more than I am, as should everyone else.
Discuss.
Oh right, duh, I forgot to point out the point. Writing at work is so distracting.
The point is, doesn't this whole plethora of SRS shrapnel look like an excellent way to induce docility while appearing to preach activity? Doesn't it seem that as a whole, the preaching parties might be bombarding the audience with guilt and moralizing precisely in order to cause an overload? Could it be I lost my train of thought and don't know quite how to put what I originally had in mind at this point?
Confusing people IS a Higher Cause.
100 extra points awarded if we can get their eyes to glaze over.
This glances off the rant in my head about The Machine, but in a different way... It would seem part of what fuels the Machine is apathy and inertia.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
I wonder if perhaps at some point we simply overload and go into a state of perpetually unmotivated laziness, believing we should be doing Something For The Greater Good or should even Just Do Something Good For Ourselves, but continually preferring to sit on our asses and grow fat.
I can see this tendancy in myself - the will to ignore whatever has been hammered into my superego and just indulge in inactivity and base physical pleasure. The laziness coupled with an unfaltering belief that I should be doing more than I am, as should everyone else.
Discuss.
That's a good observation.
About a year ago, somebody (Faust or Felix?) ranted about trying to squelch that voice in your head which is saying "You should be doing more," because it saps the fun out of your relaxation. I think it's a healthy vibe - in moderation.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
While reading Cram's diatribe on why he puts up posters, something interesting occurred to me:
It seems that everywhere you go, you bump into the strange expectation that what you do has to have some kind of lofty goal; people seem to think if you don't have a Higher Cause in mind, what you're doing is useless.
And yet at the same time, we live in an era of such complacancy and docility as could hardly be imagined just a century ago. People both expect activity to be driven by lofty motivation, and at the same time spend heartbeats watching goddess-damned American Idol.
Either these two trends are simply opposites in a state of dissonance, or they are somehow corelated. As unintuitive as this may seem, the latter seems to make sense in a way.
In my opinion, the trick is to find the happy medium. I've known the lazy people who waste away in front of the tube. But, I've also known people who are obsessed with saving the world. These people who think if they don't "acheive something" in their lives that they are utter failures, and thusly, put immense pressures on themselves and end up not really making ANY progress whatsoever. I dated someone like this. She thought it was the goal of her life to make some Earth-shattering, monumental change in the world. But she was way overthinking and it actually hampered her motivation to the point where she was pretty much paralyzed.
For myself, I am in a field of work where my work is expected to have impact on others and to improve their lives. However, I try to be very disciplined about it and not shoot for Mars where what I really need to do is just focus on landing on the Moon.
To bring it to our BIP/Machine metaphors, it's that changing a small cog and hope that it can exert some change on surrounding cogs. Maybe, over time, you effect enough where it can start to alter the direction of The Machine, even if to a microscopic degree. To expect or think you can make some monumental 180 degree shift in its course, I think, is foolhardy and will get you just as far as the bum on the couch watching the Flavor of Love marathon.
It's cliche, but I think its about finding a way to be satisfied with baby steps. Patience and discipline are essential components of thinking for yourself.
It also perpetuates self-guilt though. A friend of mine is now incredibly depressed. "I'm 33," she says, "and all I do is go to work at a dead-end job, come home, have dinner. On weekends, I may hang out with my friends. Where did I go wrong? I was supposed to be famous and important by now."
"But you've got a good life, and a boyfriend you're in love with," I say (the 'oh, then stop' trick doesnt work on her). "You should be happy."
"BUT I'M NOT IMPORTANT!"
I think basically if people didn't keep trying to make things better, things would just be okay on their own. Most of our large-scale, impersonal problems are the result of attempts to improve the world. (Which nicely ties in with my rant about how The Solution Is The Problem.)
If there weren't people who tried to make the world better, the world would be nice?
That's what I'm getting from this.
Quote from: Felix on June 04, 2008, 07:33:59 PM
If there weren't people who tried to make the world better, the world would be nice?
That's what I'm getting from this.
It might be a start. There are, of course, people who make the world shitty because that's what they do, rather than screwing it up with their "solutions." It's never as simple as pinpointing a single cause for all the world's shit.
Scientists and doctors aside.... Look at the people who have made major changes in the world, what they were trying to change and how they did it.
Am I lazy because I'm not another Ghandi? Another Lincoln? I don't think so.
Will whatever I do in my life have an impact on the whole world, probably (most likely) not but then again that has never been my goal in life. To be important, famous, remembered? Is that important to me? When I was 20 maybe, before my kids were born.
I guess that is what really changed the way I look at what I want out of my life, is my children. Now do I want THEM to change the world, OH HELL YES. Will I be disappointed if they don't? Nope.
However, if I can, in my own way make others question the whys and wherefores of the bullshit we have in the world today, then I'll be a happy camper! It will be the icing yanno.
I have a hunch that most of the people who actually did change the world for the better, did this out of indulgence - out of curiosity, out of keen interest, out of compassion.
But I have been known to fall under the influence of hippie-scented optimism, so who knows.
Quote from: LMNO on June 04, 2008, 06:37:25 PMI was supposed to be famous and important by now."
This, I think, is the problem.
We were the first generation constantly told how 'special' each and every one of us were, and it turned us into a civilization full of people who think they are already famous, and are wondering why the checks aren't coming in yet, and why nobody is snapping pics of them coming out of the Piggly Wiggly?
Nobody TRIES to do anything worthwhile to become famous because they think they already are. And if they are somewhat smart enough to realize they aren't famous, they are depressed because they aren't famous.
Few seem to stop to think about the kinds of lives people who are already famous live.
On Judaism: No pork/no seafood make sense. I wouldn't eat lobster from Mexico, for example, and that's similar sanitary conditions to the ancient world. Hepatitis and Trichinosis are nasty diseases.
The "seethe a kid in its mother's milk" probably had more to do with not liking some other local tribe.
Not that the point is invalid, or that those laws make sense today, when one can get healthy Maine lobster and can cook pork to eliminate Trichinosis.
That's entirely beside the point. The point is that - completely regardless of the reasoning behind it - these prohibitions are excercized through moralization and (especially) by making people feel guilty when they "go wrong". Whether this is for an actual reasonably logical reason or not is simply irrelevant.
Quote from: PeregrineBF on June 05, 2008, 12:06:33 PM
On Judaism:
I smell threadjack.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2008, 10:25:59 PM
I have a hunch that most of the people who actually did change the world for the better, did this out of indulgence - out of curiosity, out of keen interest, out of compassion.
That checks out, in a sense. Tesla didn't change the world forever because he was a hero paladin of some sort, he changed it because he was smarter than anyone else at the time, and refused to stop researching the thing he loved most. The fact that he set the groundwork for almost all of our technology today was just the byproduct of his passions. There are a lot of people like that.
Quote from: Khara on June 04, 2008, 08:00:57 PM
I guess that is what really changed the way I look at what I want out of my life, is my children. Now do I want THEM to change the world, OH HELL YES. Will I be disappointed if they don't? Nope.
Something I've noticed about people and their kids is that they almost never share the same vision for how to bring about change.
Quote from: Felix on June 05, 2008, 04:52:11 PM
That checks out, in a sense. Tesla didn't change the world forever because he was a hero paladin of some sort, he changed it because he was smarter than anyone else at the time, and refused to stop researching the thing he loved most. The fact that he set the groundwork for almost all of our technology today was just the byproduct of his passions. There are a lot of people like that.
Excellent example. I also think this is true of well over 99% of all Great Artists, from poets to painters to writers to whatnot.
I don't think most people have such high expectations on our behavior. It would be awesome if higher ideals permeated into everyday living (beyond the noble expectation that you just do (almost) whatever you want - which is a negative freedom), for they inspire us, but that just doesn't happen in a system driven by the "free market." It seems almost every facet of society is based on the assumption that $ is the most efficient means of compensation/motivation. For instance, G.W. Bush said he would encourage green energy through market incentives. I don't entirely agree with this method of inspiration, but I can't entirely disagree, either. It would get some expected results, but is ultimately flawed because its fundamental assumption that money is the only means of motivating ultimately yields all kinds of unwanted side-effects (manipulation of ledgers and other numbers to further their interests instead of what the incentives were originally created for is one of them).
If I were in charge of the system, I would make the ideal of human prosperity (as yet undefined in an exact sense) valued over fiscal prosperity, but I'm told that will never happen for reasons that sound unfamiliar to me.
You guys (BB and Peregrin, so far) keep confusing the cheese with the cake. It's not about the actual ideals. It's about the guilt complex associated with them. Verily, most people in the Western World today don't actually have a very developed moral code or ideal for themselves or for mankind. But a vast majority feels very, very guilty, deep down, for not being more moral.
It's illogical, thus practically unshakable.
Lol. Whoops. I guess I should've kept the second paragraph in mind when I wrote that.
Burnstoupee Posted this link in the random links thread, but I think it may have some relevance here. http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html
I particularly liked the idea of ignoring everyone. When you latch on to something that you enjoy, or are very fond of it may indeed go over better of you just keep your blinders on and keep plucking away on it. Perfecting it over time and eventually reaping the rewards for your efforts, or not, but that is not really the point is it?
Insofar as morals, or the lack there of and the guilt associated with that I would say that the first step in outlining said morals would be the feeling of guilt associated with the lack of them.
When we grow up in this world we are bombarded with images of how special we all are and how each and every one of us will some how become immortal, famous, rock stars, writers, we are told that if we just buy this book, listen to this lecture, don these shoes, that our success is a given.
When we come to realize that somehow it never worked out for us, here at X years old surrounded by our books, our crap, our decaying ideas, yes you can bet your ass it's depressing. We can look back and say, "I should be important by now!" or "What the fuck happened? I went through all the proper channels and look at what I have accomplished... nothing."
You have become one who goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, goes to bed and occasionally goes out on the weekends. Dose this mean you are somehow inferior, that you do not matter to those who depend on you for sustenance, guidance, like your children? No. Each of us dose have a particular destiny to discover, something important to accomplish, whether it shall be earth shattering in proportion, or if it's only that you have successfully completed embryogenesis it is still an accomplishment.
If we are ever feeling guilty or sulky about our failure to better mankind, then perhaps we should do something on the micro level. Something small to jumpstart the process, plop a quarter into a donation box or better yet, sprinkle the sidewalk with all the coins in your pockets. Don't over think it just go about it like Cram was saying in the Meme bomb thread, like a monkey at a typewriter. Perhaps it won't elevate the guilt, or even make you realize that the guilt itself is unnecessary, but it will help others to find more quarters on the sidewalk.
what's funny, my dad actually sent me that link, heh. i think i may have said this before (i think it was at eb&jelly, though), in light of everyone wanting to do something extordinary it seems that now the most extordinary thing to do is be ordinary. i work at a print shop... in short, i make copies. most of what i do is copy things for mr. corporate executive. the 'damn the man' attitude driven person would be absolutley miserable at this job. although i really enjoy what i do. i was having a conversation with a fellow coworker and we were talking about how some customers tend to be total dicks and how he felt that he was wasting away doing this job day after day. i mentioned that he should try looking deeply into what he really does. fathers, mothers...humans....come into my work and have things printed so they can sustain their lives. the presentations i do (for the most part) are done so that people can survive. (i.e. maintain their jobs in order to get those greenish security papers to feed themselves and others etc.) to throw a moral righteousness into the job is only going to necessitate a feeling of guilt. i don't need that added stress. so i work to make sure that i do what i do with carefulness and mindfulness. what happens is i achieve many, many little successes and occasionally failures. the lack of an objective keeps me focused in the momentary work i'm doing. so perhaps an effective way of using the higher power meme is to use it to within practical circumstances rather than a grandiose objective.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 05, 2008, 07:14:44 PM
You guys (BB and Peregrin, so far) keep confusing the cheese with the cake. It's not about the actual ideals. It's about the guilt complex associated with them. Verily, most people in the Western World today don't actually have a very developed moral code or ideal for themselves or for mankind. But a vast majority feels very, very guilty, deep down, for not being more moral.
It's illogical, thus practically unshakable.
Evidence pls.
No, that was just my opinion based on observation. Not scientific fact or even scientific Theory, no siree.
Oh, I understand the point, just saying that there is a reason for some of that stuff. Not that the reason doesn't get distorted and forgotten, and I think that's part of why people feel bad. They have RULES to follow, and no reason to follow them. So they break the RULES and feel bad for doing something wrong. Jewish dietary law doesn't make sense with USDA/FDA approved stuff, but it makes a ton of sense if you live in Mexico.
As for not having a moral code, see the murder of Kitty Genovese.
What about it? You mean the thirty-odd people who watched and did nothing?
Fuck a higher cause. I just like to laugh.
In my experience the ones with the loftiest causes tend to provide the biggest lulz.
I'm just here for the ride - rest of the world can take care of itself
Quote from: Nigel on June 06, 2008, 09:40:37 AM
Fuck a higher cause. I just like to laugh.
For the lulz was inevitably going to be mentioned, wasn't it? :)
Quote from: Verbatim on June 05, 2008, 11:35:38 PM
No, that was just my opinion based on observation. Not scientific fact or even scientific Theory, no siree.
I'm sure with enough grant money it could become a scientific theory.
Quote from: Felix on June 06, 2008, 10:41:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on June 06, 2008, 09:40:37 AM
Fuck a higher cause. I just like to laugh.
For the lulz was inevitably going to be mentioned, wasn't it? :)
Yes, because some variation on it is the motivator for a fair number of people, and I don't think there's any reason to be ashamed of it any more than there's a reason to be ashamed to say that I sit in the sun because I enjoy it.
Ooooooh! sun! i know what i'm doing tomorrow.
shame is gay
Yes, "for the lulz" is kinda what I meant with indulging. It's one variety.
Guilt can be quite crippling, but it has its necessity. Although I'm much more inclined to agree that most of the world's problems are caused by powerful people thinking they can fix the world's problems. The search for equality tends towards setting up our system to cater most the lowest common denominator. Teacher spends all his time tryna get timmy and sally to add, while the potential geniuses in the class go over stuff they understood five years ago.
If we let everyone do what they want guilt-free, then the Tesla's, Einstein's, Da Vinci's of the world are most definitely still going to do amazing things. Stop telling young GWB's that they could grow up to be president, even if it IS true, it's not going to be a pretty sight.
See if there's a point to what i'm saying here, i'm not sure there is.. Basically, I used to think I had do do something amazing with my life, and it would be a guilt-ridden waste of talent if i didn't, now i just think i've got to enjoy every second of my life, and it will be a crying shame to spend this holy gift of life unhappy. It's definitely a crying shame if any of you (or anyone else for that matter) is unhappy, contributing to the misery of the world, but I can't stop you, no one can make you happy more than temporarily.
The earth is flat. I think most assumptions people have are backwards: you think you would be happier if you were doing more for the world or for others, I like to think that you would be doing more for the world and for others if you were happy. Be happy, guilt-free. Smile and the world smiles with you. (sometimes i do want to punch myself in the face)
:mittens:
I can see the beginning of a wonderful friendship here, mister bones.
Quote from: bones on June 11, 2008, 09:41:19 AM
Guilt can be quite crippling, but it has its necessity. Although I'm much more inclined to agree that most of the world's problems are caused by powerful people thinking they can fix the world's problems. The search for equality tends towards setting up our system to cater most the lowest common denominator. Teacher spends all his time tryna get timmy and sally to add, while the potential geniuses in the class go over stuff they understood five years ago.
If we let everyone do what they want guilt-free, then the Tesla's, Einstein's, Da Vinci's of the world are most definitely still going to do amazing things. Stop telling young GWB's that they could grow up to be president, even if it IS true, it's not going to be a pretty sight.
See if there's a point to what i'm saying here, i'm not sure there is.. Basically, I used to think I had do do something amazing with my life, and it would be a guilt-ridden waste of talent if i didn't, now i just think i've got to enjoy every second of my life, and it will be a crying shame to spend this holy gift of life unhappy. It's definitely a crying shame if any of you (or anyone else for that matter) is unhappy, contributing to the misery of the world, but I can't stop you, no one can make you happy more than temporarily.
The earth is flat. I think most assumptions people have are backwards: you think you would be happier if you were doing more for the world or for others, I like to think that you would be doing more for the world and for others if you were happy. Be happy, guilt-free. Smile and the world smiles with you. (sometimes i do want to punch myself in the face)
Yay Bones! I like this.
:D
whoops, did i post something that didn't make you want to injure my face?
thanks guys. I look forward to yuor tasty friend chips
Now I will be forever riddled with guilt for not being as happy as I could be.
CURSE YOU! :argh!:
:mittens:
I think it's additionally helpful to heed the advice of the mynah birds.
"ATTENTION."
Quote from: bones on June 11, 2008, 09:41:19 AM
Guilt can be quite crippling, but it has its necessity. Although I'm much more inclined to agree that most of the world's problems are caused by powerful people thinking they can fix the world's problems. The search for equality tends towards setting up our system to cater most the lowest common denominator. Teacher spends all his time tryna get timmy and sally to add, while the potential geniuses in the class go over stuff they understood five years ago.
If we let everyone do what they want guilt-free, then the Tesla's, Einstein's, Da Vinci's of the world are most definitely still going to do amazing things. Stop telling young GWB's that they could grow up to be president, even if it IS true, it's not going to be a pretty sight.
See if there's a point to what i'm saying here, i'm not sure there is.. Basically, I used to think I had do do something amazing with my life, and it would be a guilt-ridden waste of talent if i didn't, now i just think i've got to enjoy every second of my life, and it will be a crying shame to spend this holy gift of life unhappy. It's definitely a crying shame if any of you (or anyone else for that matter) is unhappy, contributing to the misery of the world, but I can't stop you, no one can make you happy more than temporarily.
The earth is flat. I think most assumptions people have are backwards: you think you would be happier if you were doing more for the world or for others, I like to think that you would be doing more for the world and for others if you were happy. Be happy, guilt-free. Smile and the world smiles with you. (sometimes i do want to punch myself in the face)
BUMP, for the profundity of the post.
This is an amazing outlook, bones.
shucks
:mrgreen:
Quote from: bones on June 11, 2008, 09:41:19 AM
The earth is flat. I think most assumptions people have are backwards: you think you would be happier if you were doing more for the world or for others, I like to think that you would be doing more for the world and for others if you were happy. Be happy, guilt-free. Smile and the world smiles with you. (sometimes i do want to punch myself in the face)
:mittens:
The bolded part is a total meme bomb
Quote from: Kai on November 11, 2008, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: bones on June 11, 2008, 09:41:19 AM
The earth is flat. I think most assumptions people have are backwards: you think you would be happier if you were doing more for the world or for others, I like to think that you would be doing more for the world and for others if you were happy. Be happy, guilt-free. Smile and the world smiles with you. (sometimes i do want to punch myself in the face)
:mittens:
The bolded part is a total meme bomb
Oh snap! How did I miss that?