This from Doloras LaPicho from http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/.
QuoteIdealism = elitism = just another treehouse club
The people at PrincipiaDiscordia.com (and if you haven't read the Principia yet, you are made of lose and fail) have an interesting new manifesto called Black Iron Prison (taking a phrase from P. K. Dick, to describe the chains of ideology, pretence identities and bad habits which prop up existing exploitative power strucutres.). It's a fun read, but annoyingly it has pretty much the same failing as virtually any "radical cultural product" in this day and age - it is generally spot on about the problem, but falls down on the solutions. While it makes a clarion call for people to throw out their useless and self-limiting identities, it never challenges its own presuppositions - idealism coupled with elitism, the self-justifying ideology (what a Scientologist would call a "service facsimile") of the modern "cultural technician" classes. I quote:
What you have to remember is that if the grazing sheep can see you then so can the bad guys. If you've found a loophole then you've shown them it and you can bet your sorry ass that they'll be busy sealing it up just as you're busy decomposing in an unmarked grave, all the while fertilising the grass that the sheep are fed.
The more obvious you become the more attention you will draw so burn the Che Guevara teeshirt and buy something with Hugo Boss written on it. Tear down the burning buddhist posters and get rid of the CND bumper stickers. Keep your books under the bed. If you really want to accomplish something then your best bet is to work undercover. Jumping on a soapbox and spreading the gospel is not how you get the message across, it's how you end up in jail. Do not subscribe to subversive magazines. Do not turn up at demos and rallys, all their operatives mugshots are on federal databases an, even worse, they achieve approximately nothing. Make no mistake, now that you've slipped your chain they're looking for you. Don't make it easy for them.
So the revolutionaries of the new era will concentrate on keeping their heads down? Interestingly from a manifesto which approvingly discussed shucking off pretence identities a few pages earlier, the personal safety and integrity of the Newly Enlightened Discordian seems to be the main priority here, rather than an attempt to use this enlightenment to affect the material world. "Yes, YOU are now the Newly Enlightened and are much better than pathetic mewling sheep! So for Eris's sake don't actually do anything except find a new peer group to swap recipes!!!"
In fact, the use of the word "sheep" shows a contempt for the huge majority of people in the material world - that is, directly the opposite of Orwell's and Chaos Marxism's dictum that "if there is hope, it lies in the proles". Note the historically inaccurate assertion (repeated by the corporate media so often that it's become common sense) that "demos never changed anything". The fact is that the mass demonstration is the only actual real political/memetic activism that your average working stiff has any chance to get involved with. It's not as useful as the mass strike, but it's something rather than nothing. Letting the ideal be the enemy of the possible is a sure road to impotence - and as for the attitude that anything that ordinary people can do is ipso facto a useless waste of time, well, I don't think I need to even comment further.
And is martyrdom all bad, anyway? Jesus was nailed up, yes, Ché was pumped full of bullets and displayed, but they are now bad-ass memes of various levels of immortality, and you won't be if you stay in hiding. What do you want - to change material reality or just give yourself a new identity, a new lifestyle, a new religion which says it's not a religion?
But of course the writer of these words specifically says that doing mass work is a waste of time:
You CAN NOT bring the MACHINE™ down. You can't even slow it down. What you can do is very slowly and unobtrusively begin to rearrange the basic components. We will refer to these as "widgets" and "sprockets". If widget A and sprocket B combine to exert societal influence C on the stinking morass known collectively as "humanity", then it stands to reason that the MACHINE™ can be reprogrammed at a very basic level and in very small increments. You waste your time dreaming of how to effect such a change on a global, national, or regional scale (the impossibility of which, I might add, keeps you in your perpetual state of blissful apathy), dreaming of assembling a group of like-minded fellows who will march with you to the very gates of the ivory tower whereupon those who have misled and exploited you will be cast down upon the parapets.
This is a counsel of despair, impotence, and magical thinking (directly the opposite of MAGICKAL thinking). To defeat the Black Iron Prison, then, the important thing is to hide, form a secret, quasi-conspiratorial network of people who think like you... and do your cultural activism / memetics / magic so that the big guns of Corporate Brainwashing will slowly but surely start to put out the message you like. Or, in summary: we are the tiny enlightened elite who are going to save the world, by hiding and doing our superhero stuff behind the scenes, by manipulating the structures of oppression rather than trying to throw them down. What, really, is the difference between this and getting a job in academia, advertising or the entertainment multinationals - i.e giving up altogether?
I get angry at so-called "Marxists" who act like that, and I'm not going to take it from Discordians either. It's also the same nonsense that that guy who reckons he's Neo from the Matrix peddles - don't destroy the Matrix, but make it kindlier for the pathetic sheep who will never be real individuals, like us. It's a counsel of despair, of making the best of things for yourself, of believing that you are better and deserve better than people who haven't had the same experiences you have. It's not an antidote to apathy, it's a set of ideas which will make you feel justified in smug apathy, in working the system for whatever material privileges you can get, and then getting together with your cool buddies on evenings and weekends to be cowboys, anarchists, Zen archers, whatever.
A basic axiom of Marxism (which should go in the CM aphorisms) is that only the conscious mass action of the huge worldwide majority will change anything. Not a secret elite of memetic superheroes. We can't make that happen by hiding and manipulating. Nor can we do that by clowning and phrasemongering, by going on demos just for the sake of going on demos - that's just another fake identity, and the BIP writers are right to point that out. (My criticism of most Marxist and anarchist sects is that they act according to the same principles for which I criticse the BIP writers - they use ritualised and useless forms of "political activism" as attempts to shore up their self-image and give them acceptable social and leisure opportunities, rather than actually trying to change the world, i.e. change mass consciousness.)
Ben Watson says, and CM agrees, that a revolution will mean the people who don't have to lie to make their living taking over. The cultural technician class (99% of the people you'll see writing blogs or websites, in other words) overwhelmingly make their living by using memetic tools to spread someone else's toxic ideology. It's precisely because of that that your bus driver is far, FAR more likely to make an effective revolutionary memetician and political activist than the cool guy you met on the internet who reads all the same cool books as you do.
One final point: the MACHINE™ (I may have to start using this shorthand) has only existed for about 100 years now, only in the time of universal suffrage and a mass consumer economy. Before then, there was no point in controlling working people's minds because no-one cared what they thought, just whether they worked. What's more, the MACHINE™ only exists because people go to work every day and make it work. To an enquiring mind, this should point out that the MACHINE™ is not the omnipresent mechanism of control that the BIP writers make it out to be - sadly, that's exactly the "common sense" that thirty years of the postmodernism academy has imposed on virtually the entire culturally-trained class. If you're going to challenge all the mind-forg'd manacles, how about starting with the assumption that capitalist structures of domination and oppression which have existed in their modern form for only 150 maximum are somehow eternal and essential features of human nature? The main proof that the future can be different is that the past was different. Of course individuals can't change it. So you'd better either think of some way of getting past your monadic, bourgeois, individualist identity - or just give up and find a good drug/religion/sports team to follow.
NOTE: The last time I wrote something like this I got hate-mail. I often sound more harsh and nasty than I mean to, so any Discordians reading this, please be assured that this is supposed to be friendly criticism and the opening of a dialogue.
Also, Welcome to the boards Doloras.
QuoteWhat you have to remember is that if the grazing sheep can see you then so can the bad guys. If you've found a loophole then you've shown them it and you can bet your sorry ass that they'll be busy sealing it up just as you're busy decomposing in an unmarked grave, all the while fertilising the grass that the sheep are fed.
The more obvious you become the more attention you will draw so burn the Che Guevara teeshirt and buy something with Hugo Boss written on it. Tear down the burning buddhist posters and get rid of the CND bumper stickers. Keep your books under the bed. If you really want to accomplish something then your best bet is to work undercover. Jumping on a soapbox and spreading the gospel is not how you get the message across, it's how you end up in jail. Do not subscribe to subversive magazines. Do not turn up at demos and rallys, all their operatives mugshots are on federal databases an, even worse, they achieve approximately nothing. Make no mistake, now that you've slipped your chain they're looking for you. Don't make it easy for them.
WTF does that have to do with BIP? I wrote that didn't I?
Wow, I'm going to have to put aside an hour to rip this apart when I get home. Talk about missing the point....
Another would be revolutionary, obsessing over the "not part of the solution" meme ? :lulz:
I think I see one big problem. She writes the following in her critique:
QuoteOne final point: the MACHINE™ (I may have to start using this shorthand) has only existed for about 100 years now, only in the time of universal suffrage and a mass consumer economy.
Only 100 years? I'd argue that as long as there has been civilizations, societies, culture, there has been a MACHINE
tm. The MACHINE
tm does not require actual mechanization to exist. It merely needs a mass collective of humanity in order for it to coalesce and be given birth.
Otherwise, this seems to be the usual critique of the BIP being too dark or too defeatist, etc., etc. But it's because she doesn't get it. The first step is for the individual to take control of the individual. An individual can't hope to have any impact on society if they don't take care of themselves first.
It's like I said back when we were putting this thing together. Those armed with themselves have the best shot at making it. It's poignant because it's true.
Yeah - she missed the point of "blending in" - it's not keeping one's head down that's the point, it's not bringing attention to oneself in order to more easily subvert. The authorities are going to profile. It's the way they work. If you LOOK like a terrorist or a commie or a hippie, they'll treat you as such and limit what actions can be taken. In order to avoid this limitation, blending in to the crowd is essential for no other reason than to NOT end up as the martyr she seems to feel is necessary. I for one would like to be around to see how it all works out, rather than be dead but idolized (and almost inevitably have my message twisted by others - how many have died in the name of Jesus?).
Also, I didn't realize we were required to offer solutions. What solutions other than realizing the bars are there are there? Without personal knowlege (which RWHN touches on) one cannot affect change, either on a personal level or a societal level. The BIP addresses ways to recognize limitations on the personal level and encourages self-examination and self-knowlege. From that point, it becomes possible to understand what "bars" others are limited by and then exploit those limitations to affect change on a broader scale.
I also agree with RWHN about the MACHINEtm. It's a concept more than a part of the military-industrial complex. It's the forces in power that use oppression to maintain that power. The way they maintain that power is the MACHINEtm. All the laws and restrictions that are used to keep the balance of power steady are the MACHINEtm, whenever and whatever those laws happen to be. It's not just laws and ordinances, though. It's also the culture that allows those laws to exist, that supports those laws as reflective of the society that employs them.
We're not the revolutionary martyrs that she seems to expect or want us to be. We're just trying to get people to take the first step of seeing how they exist, what their individual limitations are. Once that first step is taken, it's up to the individual to decide where the second step and all the ones after it are to go. I personally have zero desire to tell someone what they should do - that just introduces ME as a bar in their BIP and defeats the whole "think for yourself" aspect that is the true purpose of the whole concept (IMO).
Yeah, I think she's right in some ways and wrong in some ways. Since I first read the BIP, I've been vocal about the elitist undertones in it, but (not to toot my own horn) I think I did a pretty good job of watering that down in my edit of the booklet.
Other than that,
QuoteTo defeat the Black Iron Prison, then, the important thing is to hide, form a secret, quasi-conspiratorial network of people who think like you... and do your cultural activism / memetics / magic so that the big guns of Corporate Brainwashing will slowly but surely start to put out the message you like. Or, in summary: we are the tiny enlightened elite who are going to save the world, by hiding and doing our superhero stuff behind the scenes, by manipulating the structures of oppression rather than trying to throw them down. What, really, is the difference between this and getting a job in academia, advertising or the entertainment multinationals - i.e giving up altogether?
Bah, I have
no little interest in changing the world*. I just want to change my neighborhood. To me, it's about getting out of the lose/lose formula which consumes modern activism and addressing the things that are on
my plane. I want to assemble a cabal of likeminded people because
that's a better personal world than one where I'm a lone gun, putting up posters and nonsense for (simply) my own amusement.
Quote(My criticism of most Marxist and anarchist sects is that they act according to the same principles for which I criticse the BIP writers - they use ritualised and useless forms of "political activism" as attempts to shore up their self-image and give them acceptable social and leisure opportunities, rather than actually trying to change the world, i.e. change mass consciousness.)
Whaaaat?
I know that putting up one-line-meme-bombs is not going to change the
world. But it is going to change
my environment, and my experience
of my environment. Rearrange the machine locally. I put jokes up on trees, and the pedestrians smile more. Yeah, I'm not affecting Big Brother. But that wasn't my goal anyway.
QuoteBen Watson says, and CM agrees, that a revolution will mean the people who don't have to lie to make their living taking over. The cultural technician class (99% of the people you'll see writing blogs or websites, in other words) overwhelmingly make their living by using memetic tools to spread someone else's toxic ideology. It's precisely because of that that your bus driver is far, FAR more likely to make an effective revolutionary memetician and political activist than the cool guy you met on the internet who reads all the same cool books as you do.
heh, yeah, I think she's missing the point. Because what she's complaining about us missing is actually something we've addressed. One of the reasons you should be aware that you're in a prison is so that you can critically evaluate your ideology and make sure you really DO stand behind it. Not so that you can realize you're One Of Us and spew
our toxic ideology. I think LaPicho is marginalizing the wrong people. We're not the revolutionaries. But we ARE the bus drivers and random pedestrians. :p
* Edited to add: I want to change the world. I just don't see any evidence that I can change more than my environment. And I personally know a hell of a lot of burned out, cynical revolutionaries. They've spent years banging their fists on the walls of the institution and all they got was a cynical, black sheep attitude and a lousy Che Guevara T-shirt.
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats. (The primary reason for this is, that most of the people here do a good enough job of that without her help.)
QuoteWhat, really, is the difference between this and getting a job in academia, advertising or the entertainment multinationals - i.e giving up altogether?
I thought the whole point of keeping your head down and blending in would be to infiltrate these institutions. It's much easier to effect change within a system, you cant put a wrench in the gears if you never get near the MACHINEtm in the first place. And furthermore I would love to see more Discordians in advertising, because here's what we get:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm85/Raphialla/chilicheese.gif)
Quote(My criticism of most Marxist and anarchist sects is that they act according to the same principles for which I criticse the BIP writers - they use ritualised and useless forms of "political activism" as attempts to shore up their self-image and give them acceptable social and leisure opportunities, rather than actually trying to change the world, i.e. change mass consciousness.)
The true way to change mass consciousness is in something that will reach the masses. –i.e.- Mass Media, and through advertising and another way to get the message out is careful marketing. You don't necessarily have to be selling anything other than your Meme. The subtle art of knowing when, where and how to spread your message is key though. You cannot just storm the streets, and bullhorn people, or you'll end up like Alex Jones. (No one really takes him seriously.)
And I like the idea of acting locally. You can change the world... one joke poster at a time. :wink:
Quote from: Raphaella VonMercer on June 17, 2008, 04:53:36 PM
QuoteWhat, really, is the difference between this and getting a job in academia, advertising or the entertainment multinationals - i.e giving up altogether?
I thought the whole point of keeping your head down and blending in would be to infiltrate these institutions. It’s much easier to effect change within a system, you cant put a wrench in the gears if you never get near the MACHINEtm in the first place.
Nail on the head. There's no difference. In fact, it's much easier to change the Machine as a member of the institution than by throwing rotten fruit at it.
I can think of a dozen revolutions that have done nothing to effectively change world.
But I can think of a hundred ad campaigns and movies that have been 100% effective.
Why is that "giving up all together?" I don't believe that change only happens by revolutions. It's a romantic idea, sure, but get with the times. Nobody I know is Che or Jesus. And most of those people trying to be Che get marginalized, get swept under the rug, get forgotten. Revolutionaries rock the boat, and they get thrown off. That's how the Machine works. Much better to be the guy with the oar than to be the guy standing up and shouting.
I guess I'm not going to try to rip it apart, you guys all beat me to it. I wonder if she's reading this.
I hope so.
if not, we should link her to it. Only fair.
I don't think her criticism is bad, I just think it's off-base. I believe she thinks we're trying to manufacture revolutionaries, but are creating impotent revolutionaries because we eschew the traditional concept of revolution. Well funk dat! We're not friggin' Marxists for chrissake! :p
:mittens: for excellent criticism
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 17, 2008, 05:24:11 PM
if not, we should link her to it. Only fair.
I don't think her criticism is bad, I just think it's off-base. I believe she thinks we're trying to manufacture revolutionaries, but are creating impotent revolutionaries because we eschew the traditional concept of revolution. Well funk dat! We're not friggin' Marxists for chrissake! :p
Agreed 100%
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 17, 2008, 05:24:11 PM
I believe she thinks we're trying to manufacture revolutionaries, but are creating impotent revolutionaries because we eschew the traditional concept of revolution.
PosterGASM is the Cialis® for impotent revolutionaries everywhere.
I'm not trying to change the world, I am just trying to make the world say "WTF?"
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats. (The primary reason for this is, that most of the people here do a good enough job of that without her help.)
what makes the BIP work, i think, is viewing as the opening stages of a process of introspection. the pamphlet itself isn't the final word in terms of what it stands for (although i can see how it might be easy to make that hasty inference). i think if one wants to get a better grasp on the idea one should read the forum posts regarding it. the introspective process and therefore the evolution of the metaphors continue within the forums. By doing this one can see how it evolves differently for each individual.
Quote from: Rev. Voodoo on June 17, 2008, 06:52:10 PM
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 17, 2008, 05:24:11 PM
I believe she thinks we're trying to manufacture revolutionaries, but are creating impotent revolutionaries because we eschew the traditional concept of revolution.
PosterGASM is the Cialis® for impotent revolutionaries everywhere.
I'm not trying to change the world, I am just trying to make the world say "WTF?"
:mittens:
:potd:
Quote from: burnstoupee pancakes on June 17, 2008, 07:47:55 PM
what makes the BIP work, i think, is viewing as the opening stages of a process of introspection. the pamphlet itself isn't the final word in terms of what it stands for (although i can see how it might be easy to make that hasty inference). i think if one wants to get a better grasp on the idea one should read the forum posts regarding it. the introspective process and therefore the evolution of the metaphors continue within the forums. By doing this one can see how it evolves differently for each individual.
That's my take as well, and I think it's where Doloras's interpretation falls short. The BIP is not a "full" philosophy, and it's not meant to have all the answers. We'd be pretty fucking arrogant to assume that we know how to "fix" everything that's wrong with the world, when what we're really doing is telling people how to screw around with their personal definitions of what's wrong with the world.
Also, FTR, I didn't care for the BIP when I first read it either... but thats because I was still a Pinealist and thought it wasn't silly enough for a Discordian to bother with.
The BIP is what made me stick around, for pretty much the reasons why you disliked it it on first sight, Cainad.
It's a personal preference, I guess.
I think it's a great metaphor, but no better than RAW's "reality tunnels". Sometimes I prefer to use the latter, because "tuning in" seems a bit less rigid than "changing the bars".
thats why i personally perfer teh Golden Sphere of Possibility term.
edit: but i feel both terms go together.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats.
I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.
I think if you stick around you'll at least get a better idea of what we're on about. Because you seem very, very, very far off target on a few points.
And by "we" I mean the spags who wrote the pamphlet, I had nothing to do with it. I just happen to agree with them on a few things.
Hi Doloras,
I'm of the mind that mass action is just as viable as more localized and individualized approaches. Revolutions are black swans—that is, just about impossible to predict except in hindsight—so the more angles people are coming at the problem, the more likely a spark is going to catch.
Stick around, intelligent dissenting views are what make this place worthwhile.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.
Oh, I disagree entirely.
QuoteThanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, then we have much to say to each other.
Much better.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.
We ARE the grease monkeys. We ARE the proles. Is it wrong for us to be self-directed, or must we let float listless in the sea of humanity, waiting for a revolution to come along?
Quote from: burnstoupee pancakes on June 17, 2008, 07:47:55 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats. (The primary reason for this is, that most of the people here do a good enough job of that without her help.)
what makes the BIP work, i think, is viewing as the opening stages of a process of introspection. the pamphlet itself isn't the final word in terms of what it stands for (although i can see how it might be easy to make that hasty inference). i think if one wants to get a better grasp on the idea one should read the forum posts regarding it. the introspective process and therefore the evolution of the metaphors continue within the forums. By doing this one can see how it evolves differently for each individual.
This is 100% troof. The energy we had swirling around here while the thing was being put together was awesome. It's certainly been the highlight of my time here on PD.COM Even immediately afterwards a lot of discussions really took off. The riffing on ideas was seemingly endless there for awhile.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.
Hi Doloras! Thanks for coming by!
by now you've gathered that we like it hot around here. :p Just as you'd warn us that your work is friendly criticism and the opening of a dialogue, I'd warn that though people may disagree with your ideas, we're generally pretty friendly (eh sorta), so don't take anything here too personally. This is a pretty broad community, so you might find some stuff interesting other than dialogue about revolution. Anyway, welcome aboard, yadda yadda
let me clarify a bit on the Machine
TM metaphor, and its personal relevance
the Machine
TM isn't something that's only created by the people at the "top" of the socioeconomic hierarchy. Political gambits and class struggle are a part of it, but it's way more than that. It's everything you do. The Machine
TM is traffic, it's the education you give your kids, it's the attitude you project in public, and it's the expectation that if you're sick, you'll call work and let them know you won't be coming in. The Machine
TM is something we all make with everything we do.
It's the push and pull of personalities and cultural forces against each other. It's the reality that we make by mutual participation.
The way the Machine is engineered, when I put up posters and flyers in my neighborhood, somebody takes them down. Through persistence, good humor, and memetics, I'm slowly changing that. (see my essay about Why I Put Up Posters (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=16579.0)) And I've seen people in my neighborhood laughing and visibly appreciating my limited reality-hacking. That's the revolution I want to be a part of. That's
my Discordia.
Collect all 1024.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats.
I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.
I recommend digging up our thread(s) on the MACHINE(tm) so you can see the totality of where we are coming from. Though, truth-be-told, not everyone here has the same take on it. But I think there is a certain chunk of the idea we all tend to orbit around.
Also, I'm glad to see a BIP-critic (you aren't the first) come and engage in dialogue after the fact. We had another person who came, asked some questions, and then wrote a particularly crap-fest of a piece on the BIP. Then, he refused to come back and discuss it with us.
So I appreciate you coming to engage us in conversation.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 17, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
I also get a very, very distinct feeling she hasn't actually spent much time here on peedycom, and that she would probably have a good time if she wasn't trying to make us look like asshats.
I only found out that peedycom existed yesterday. And if it looked like I was trying to make you guys look like asshats, then (as I mentioned in my endnote) I was obviously doing it wrong, yet again. Thanks for the invite to hang around, but if you guys think the idea of actually changing things through mass action is ridiculous, I doubt we have much to say to each other.
One point - I think it was Cramulus who said that you can only hope to throw a wrench in the gears of the MACHINE (tm) by getting close to the machine. He's 100% correct, but you don't get that close to the workings if you hope to be one of the guys directing it - only if you're one of the poor grease-monkeys down there getting filthy making it work. Which is exactly why Marxists say that "hope lies in the proles", rather than in sneaking your way into the elite.
That ship has already sailed. PD.com is full of asshats....but we have a groovy booklet & lots of ideas open for discussion. Join in, have fun & welcome.
:)
I must say, you guys are far easier to talk to than the current crop of ignorant Bobbies who call themselves "SubGeniuses". Anyone who's read the CM blog for a while will remember what happened when we tried to engage
them in polemic. I should also make it clear that, while I wrote a tirade on parts of BIP that pissed me off, I think it is a
very good thing that BIP exists, in that to my knowledge it's the first piece of original Discordian literature since
Illuminatus!. There's only so long that people can rehash the insights of RAW, Mal-2, Thornley etc before it begins to look like early Christianity with more dope-smoking - so kudos for the authors for at least making an effort.
A bit of clarification: I suppose the point I was getting at with "the MACHINE (tm) has only existed for 150 years" was that not that ideology and "soft power" social control didn't exist before then - far from it - but that the rules of the game were entirely different in the pre-capitalist era, when similar processes worked through priesthoods and bureaucracies rather than memetic technology. I think that's what I would consider the unique contribution of Marxism to this kind of cultural/memetic theory - the idea that the rules of the game as we know it are intimately bound in such recent-and-therefore-not-eternal phenomena as transnational corporations, the universality of wage and salaried labour, the mass consumer market, etc, and that therefore solutions dreamt up before the early 19th century are just anachronistic.
Quote from: CainadIs it wrong for us to be self-directed, or must we let float listless in the sea of humanity, waiting for a revolution to come along?
Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.
Most of what I liked about the BIP were the parts about the actual Black Iron Prison itself - how people limit themselves through their perceptions of what they are supposed to be, putting themselves into stereotypes, accidentally picking up bits of memetic shrapnel (okay, that was a later thought, but inspired by the BIP) that change the way they (we) think without realizing it. It's inspired me to keep better track of where my ideas come from, and to make sure I agree with them before passing them on to other people.
I didn't like the elitism, or the bits that portrayed The Authority as a Big Brother organization profiling people who attend rallies, etc. I also didn't like the part close to the beginning about 'the con' or something (sorry TGRR.) The con isn't the political system - it's that the political system is the problem. There are a lot of problems in this world, and while some certainly come from governments and other institutions, more come from yourself and people closer to you. The Establishment can't make me think in narrow, pre-defined ruts - I can.
The BIP isn't a revolutionary document, it's a radical document. It isn't about overthrowing the establishment, it's about creating your own establishment around you, starting with yourself. Mass action certainly can do things, and the things it can do it does effectively. Mass action can have effects on laws, but rarely on individuals. Take the gay rights movements - it has gotten some legislation, but no amount of protest is going to make someone less homophobic. You know what does that? Having friends or family who are gay - and realizing that homosexuality doesn't matter. You can reach out to people around you, and change hearts and minds one person at a time, leading by example. We aren't trying to reshape society; Discordja is no inner circle of memetics experts trying to replace a world-wide culture they consider toxic with the ones they like. We're changing our immediate environments, talking to people near us.
-
On the bit about keeping your head down, I mostly disagreed with it. There is a little truth there, though. If you act like a crazy radical, people will treat you like a crazy radical. And that means that if you say something interesting, people dismiss it out of hand as just crazy radical talk. Pranks become 'oh, it's just that one weird kid.' It's marginalizing yourself. Don't marginalize yourself; be heard. Speak softly to the people near you, someone might listen. There's a balance between being High Crazy and a conformist where people still take you seriously but you don't (necessarily) have to take them seriously.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 18, 2008, 01:45:25 AM
Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.
I like to think that in an age of nearly instantaneous cheap worldwide communication, the rules are changing again, and we have a hell of a lot of new toys to play rebel with.
Welcome to the board Deloras LaPicho, in our current run of new members you certainly stand out against well against the last couple of months crop.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 18, 2008, 01:58:02 AM
If you act like a crazy radical, people will treat you like a crazy radical. And that means that if you say something interesting, people dismiss it out of hand as just crazy radical talk. Pranks become 'oh, it's just that one weird kid.' It's marginalizing yourself. Don't marginalize yourself; be heard. Speak softly to the people near you, someone might listen. There's a balance between being High Crazy and a conformist where people still take you seriously but you don't (necessarily) have to take them seriously.
:mittens:
This is the point - not keeping your head down, merely keeping your head in a position to foment change.
Quote from: Faust on June 18, 2008, 02:03:02 AM
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 18, 2008, 01:45:25 AM
Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.
I like to think that in an age of nearly instantaneous cheap worldwide communication, the rules are changing again, and we have a hell of a lot of new toys to play rebel with.
Welcome to the board Deloras LaPicho, in our current run of new members you certainly stand out against well against the last couple of months crop.
:mittens:
I personally welcome the differing opinion from someone not on the inside track of creating the BIP writings. I say we can use it to alter some wording and make the concepts of the BIP more comprehensible to others. Not saying make it too easy, some amount of individual thought is required or it will end up with meaningless dittos from mindless followers.
Revolution? Mass revolution? Nope.
We are out publicized, out armed, out manned and can be shut up far too easily and shipped out. Doloras you mentioned remaining under the radar and mass revolution at the same time. If you seriously want to remain under the radar and off the profile sheets then consider NOT having a mass revolution party. It would be seriously crashed by guys in black SUV's and suits. And greasing the wheels of the Machine™ is perfectly acceptable as long as the grease is full of sand. The only way to get close enough to do this is by blending in and appearing to be full of desire to grease the wheel.
Welcome to pd!
Edited to add I seem to have strong Subgenius inclinations. :lulz:
Also, Doloras, I don't think THE MACHINE changed so dramatically in the 19th century. The change seems essentially superficial, if you ask me.
You know, I'd love to see material added to the BIP, to reflect conversations like this. Some of what's been posted in here would make a nice addition to an appendix.
Maybe at some point enough material could be collected to create a "BIP Extended Version" that could be put on Lulu.
I agree. My advice is to collect material for inclusion and centralize it somewhere. (like a thread or the BIP wiki)
then, the next step: the .doc of the BIP pamphlet is easy to download and edit.
Hi Dolores.
I found your criticism to be accurate, in the following ways:
1. No, we didn't offer solutions. Any blanket solution to an individual's problems other than "think for yourself, schmuck" would be riddled with oversimplifications and non-applicable ideas.
2. We didn't make it obvious that the pamphlet was also a mirror. Perhaps on a future edition, we should put "WE'RE IN PRISON, TOO" on the back cover, to fully acknowledge that we're not elitists that have found the solution and are pitying the masses, but that we have merely realized that we're in the same trap as everyone else.
Now:
I would disagree that we are against Mass Actions. However, it would seem like the optimal place to be the next time a WTO riot breaks out would be the guy in the suit behind the cops surriptitiously letting the air out of their tires, not the guy with 20 facial piercings staring down a taser.
Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind. The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does. In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.
Quote from: LMNO on June 18, 2008, 05:47:44 PM
Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind. The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does. In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.
:mittens:
"The xenophobic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does."
didnt marxism create millions of the above mentioned monkey minds who ended up killing millions of there fellow monkeys? how dose Marxism in any way help undo the bip when it seems to be just a big collectivist prison ideology
SHUT UP THE RUSSIANS GOT IT ALL WRONG THATS NOT WHAT MARX INTENDED DID YOU EVER EVEN READ MARX YOURSELF?!
-Verb,
never read Marx, but used to argue this nonetheless, for a while
p.s
Nigel and Cram win (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=16775.0)
Quote from: fnord mote eris on June 18, 2008, 06:25:34 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 18, 2008, 05:47:44 PM
Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind. The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does. In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.
:mittens:
"The xenophobic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does."
didnt marxism create millions of the above mentioned monkey minds who ended up killing millions of there fellow monkeys? how dose Marxism in any way help undo the bip when it seems to be just a big collectivist prison ideology
"Because we're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - "We Decide" Dr. Steel
Quote from: fnord mote eris on June 18, 2008, 06:25:34 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 18, 2008, 05:47:44 PM
Also, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind. The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does. In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.
:mittens:
"The xenophobic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does."
didnt marxism create millions of the above mentioned monkey minds who ended up killing millions of there fellow monkeys? how dose Marxism in any way help undo the bip when it seems to be just a big collectivist prison ideology
Why are you talking about Marxism?
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w160/jim0013/groucho.jpg)
As far as I am aware, we are the Machine™.
i have read Marx and it only works on paper (the Russians and every one else who has tried it got it wrong?)i have watched Marx "groucho" and prefer it over "Karl" i only brought it up because a Marxist is saying the bip move the system though self change and monkeywrenching it from within doesn't work (self change works the second part may or may not) if the prison bars of the commenter (self included) are not relevant to there perspective on the subject then please ignore
Quote from: LMNO on June 18, 2008, 05:47:44 PM2. We didn't make it obvious that the pamphlet was also a mirror. Perhaps on a future edition, we should put "WE'RE IN PRISON, TOO" on the back cover, to fully acknowledge that we're not elitists that have found the solution and are pitying the masses, but that we have merely realized that we're in the same trap as everyone else.
This. Very much this.
QuoteAlso, the Machine™ (to me) is associated with the Monkey Mind. The xenophopic, tribalistic, beta-dog, order-taking, thought-conforming monkey that does whatever the tribe does. In this sense, even though "machines" have only existed for a few centuries, the Thing that is Machine™ goes back millenia.
At least as far back as people have been operating as social animals. As far as a machine goes, I don't have a problem with there being a machine (because anarchy is a fucking useless idea), but it is an issue when it takes more to keep the machine running than what it produces. It's far better for society to be a tool that serves the humans who made it then when the humans become slaves to the machine. That's why I like the BIP, by being aware that we are a part of the machine, it can help us recognize when the machine is just using us instead of us using the machine.
Or I'm full of shit, decide for yourself.
I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2008, 09:43:04 AM
I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.
yeah, it usually only lasts for 2 turns.
Quote from: Daruko on June 19, 2008, 01:18:45 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2008, 09:43:04 AM
I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.
yeah, it usually only lasts for 2 turns.
Unless you're Spiritual. ;)
:mittens:
Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2008, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Daruko on June 19, 2008, 01:18:45 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2008, 09:43:04 AM
I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.
yeah, it usually only lasts for 2 turns.
Unless you're Spiritual. ;)
:mittens:
troof :lulz:
Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2008, 09:43:04 AM
I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.
OK, I can see that. Maybe the anarchy machine would be so unlike our current machine that it would take a bit more to recognize it as a machine.
Quote from: Vene on June 19, 2008, 05:39:04 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2008, 09:43:04 AM
I don't think anarchy necessarily means getting rid of The Machine. I think it's merely a way to drastically retune it. It would probably only be temporary, too.
OK, I can see that. Maybe the anarchy machine would be so unlike our current machine that it would take a bit more to recognize it as a machine.
I dunno.
Since my conception of the Machine™ stems from the ancient brain characteristics of primates, even in an anarchist system, the old patterns would be present.
Cf: RAW's Militant Radical groups in
I3! that had the same underlying power structures as the rest of society.
Yes. The state is a tribal monkey power-structure, and the groups trying to bring it down are tribal monkey power-structures too. It doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong, but it does mean they're necessarily the same on a very basic level.
The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.
Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.
We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.
I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK! :lulz:
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 19, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.
Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.
We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.
I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK! :lulz:
TITCM
NT: How to bring about worldwide slack in 7 days or less!
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 19, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.
Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.
We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.
I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK! :lulz:
Agreed.
For me, in the same way that the BIP is inescapable, yet absolutely necessary, the Machine™ will always be around.
The problem is, it currently uses the blood of innocents to keep it running.
Quote from: LMNO on June 19, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 19, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.
Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.
We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.
I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK! :lulz:
Agreed. For me, in the same way that the BIP is inescapable, yet absolutely necessary, the Machine™ will always be around.
The problem is, it currently uses the blood of innocents to keep it running.
Hrmmm, blood of innocents is maybe slightly dramatic, but I'll give it a thumbs up anyway ;-)
I wonder how difficult it really is, to change the Machine? People seem to have done it in the past and maybe some still do it today. Communes that existed in the 1700's and 1800's in the US might be said to have created unique machines, completely separate from the larger machine from outside. The Amish have built their own machine (but don't tell them that, they'll stop using it!), the Utopia groups that have gone off and built their own community and have redesigned their own social machine to use energy differently. Temporary Autonomous Zones might be areas where a new/different machine gets built.
I suppose the first question that most of those groups had to answer, though, might have been "How do we want our machine to operate? Where should it get energy and how should it expend energy?"
Maybe that's the first real step.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 19, 2008, 06:13:10 PM
The thing is, machines appear useful... as tools.
Machines, by definition are objects that transmit and modify energy. The 'social machine' might be seen as doing the same thing... the energies of millions and billions of humans appear modified and transmitted and used to do work (create and run a given society). The programming of ancient human beings also transmits and modifies energy, our own energy into preconceived buckets, energy into SEX, energy into TERRITORIAL DEFENSE, Etc Etc etc.
We need the machines, unless we truly want to do everything in life on our own.
I don't think anyone really wants to destroy the 'machine', but maybe some of us want to redirect its energy expenditure or ensure that the machine is a tool for humans, not the primary existence of humans. The machine, maybe, needs rebuilt for a new age...we may need to upgrade its technology... make it work better, faster and more efficiently a GREEN MACHINE. The less energy required by the Machine, the more energy would be retained by the source (US!) aka MOAR SLACK! :lulz:
That's pretty much what I was trying to say a few posts earlier.
found this on the web:
http://starzend.livejournal.com/2008/02/22/
QuoteGuess what.
I was wandering round the internet, surprising right?
well, I came across Postergasm (My confined space > posterGasm) which is of course worth a look, but not really relevent to this post.
From postergasm I came across Black Iron Prison, which is supposed to be an "updating" of the Principa Discordia, (principa discordia being the "holy" book of discordinism, the joke that might be a religion or the religion that might be a joke. you decide) and as I was at work had nothing better to do I read it. its short, only 46 pages long.
Wow, they missed the point, or missed what made the earlier work great.
Sure, this contains refrences to lolcats and sure, they acknolege that they have stripped out the humour so people get the message but now it just comes across as a bunch of bitching!
Okay, it is now 20 mins later and I just had to deal with customers. With that time I have had to think I can only assume I'm missing something and will have to give BIP a re-read when I get home and find myself free of distractions.
Still, bitching aside from about page 39 onward, its actualy well written.
The section was entitled something like the rought guide to freedom.
This short section does start with a quote which in proper discordian tradition (for the first time in the document) implies you should not nessecarily believe what you read.
Did I have a point?
Its now about one hour and two minuites after I started writing this post, and I have completly forgotten what I was going to say.
Yay work!
That's twice that rant has been mentioned recently - have I missed something? How come my shit is getting associated with BIP all of a sudden?
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 20, 2008, 07:37:07 PM
That's twice that rant has been mentioned recently - have I missed something? How come my shit is getting associated with BIP all of a sudden?
Spite.
Hey Dolaras (yes, I'm behind on events). Havent really read the thread in much detail, but if you'd like to bring some more Chaos Marxism to the board, I for one wont complain.
Me = occasional reader of your rather fine blog.
Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on June 18, 2008, 01:45:25 AM
Well, revolutions don't "come along". Ché Guevara said "if you're a revolutionary, make a revolution". That's a hopelessly optimistic formula in itself (and led directly to Ché getting himself killed), but there's always something that can be done right now to attempt to get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.
I guess that's what we're attempting to do right now. We're trying to covertly get rebellious ideas into mass circulation.
And for some reason I think it seems more plausible to attempt to make small tweaks in the system, rather than try to shout it in a megaphone.
I think, because people don't like to be told what to do or how to feel unless they decide they feel that way themselves. So if we spread the message secretly, and do it quietly so that it's not forcefully, we will introduce new ideas to people, and the people will feel like they freely chose that solution. Which they'll choose anyway but you know what I mean. At least then they'll listen.
I don't know if that made any sense,
but we've already started a revolution. We just have decentralized revolutionaries.