What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
Style, attitude, generally higher IQ, being actually able to rip apart other modern counter culture, being centralized on a tenet that allows a lot (sometimes too much) freedom, and some other things that are just as much of a lie as everything else I said.
At no point in our "agenda" (to use the term so loosely that it nearly loses all meaning) is it necessary for members of our "movement" (again, to use a term loosely) to have faith. Determination helps a lot for individual projects, but no one has to actually believe that nonsense is salvation.
Edited to add: Also, a generally high ratio of hotness. And we don't argue over what to wear.
We aren't a counter-culture. We aren't anti-culture, because that requires defining ourselves in relation to the culture. We're pro and anti whatever-we-feel-like. This tends to change rather frequently, and be different for different members. Most counter-culture movements focus on a few aspects, and then conform to those things. We do to, but when we notice them we tend to try to stop doing that, or have a good reason to do so.
every reply so far has been empty posturing.
the answer is simple: it's because we are right, and they are wrong.
Quote from: vexati0n on June 23, 2008, 05:32:41 AM
every reply so far has been empty posturing.
the answer is simple: it's because we are right, and they are wrong.
Yes, that's the TROOF!! :mittens:
We aren't really faith or conviction oriented. Convictions are automatically suspect, and taking anything seriously is dangerous and often a side of grey-face. Our agenda is preventing the problems caused by having an agenda.
Quote from: nostalgicBadger on June 23, 2008, 05:58:01 AM
...and taking anything seriously is dangerous and often a side of grey-face...
Eris just called, she said she thinks you need to live through a few more years of President Bush.
Thanks a lot.
stfuj
Who says we're different?
some people who are just like us and therefore can judge the whole thing in a balanced manner.
WTF is with this "us" bullshit?
I don't remember signing up for anything :argh!:
Even stuff that nearly everyone agrees on gets contradicted at some stage and we get to hammer out weak points.
Its not that we are right, we are just better at pointing out why they are wrong.
Because ROGER is different, and his mind control laz0rs force us to be different with him.
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
Because we hate ourselves and want everyone else to die.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 23, 2008, 09:22:32 AM
Who says we're different?
btw, this is the correct answering a question with a question.
Because, as LMNO and TGRR will rightly point out, we're
all monkeys.
If anything, we, maybe, are just a bit more willing to accept our monkeyness and to find a way to use it to our advantage.
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 23, 2008, 01:33:57 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 23, 2008, 09:22:32 AM
Who says we're different?
btw, this is the correct answering a question with a question.
Because, as LMNO and TGRR will rightly point out, we're all monkeys.
If anything, we, maybe, are just a bit more willing to accept our monkeyness and to find a way to use it to our advantage.
We are also
all discordians. We're just not all Discordians.
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 23, 2008, 01:33:57 PM
btw, this is the correct answering a question with a question.
I
am a J00, aren't I? ;)
Q: Why does a J00 always answer a question with another question?
A: Why should a J00 not answer a question with another question?
(or words to that effect)
and
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 23, 2008, 10:30:20 AM
WTF is with this "us" bullshit?
I don't remember signing up for anything :argh!:
I just remembered that I haven't either but that feeling as if I had can be very persistent at times.
Nothing.
Individuals often appear different, but groups seem to bear striking similarities...
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2008, 05:11:57 PM
Nothing.
Individuals often appear different, but groups seem to bear striking similarities...
:mittens:
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2008, 05:11:57 PM
Nothing.
Individuals often appear different, but groups seem to bear striking similarities...
Birds of a feather..........
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
Bacon, vocoders, and pterodactyls.
Quote from: LMNO on June 23, 2008, 08:58:15 PM
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
Bacon, vocoders, and pterodactyls.
and mustaches.
PD.COM: Doing what everyone else is doing, but different.
Paradoxically I don't feel like I have to fit in with the rest of you asshats and that seems to make me feel right at home :eek:
There's no pressure to be something here, just a camaraderie in laughing at people who seem intent on trying.
I'd like to think that's entirely true, but there is some pressure for sombunal newbs. There are types of behavior and opinion that are basically not tolerated here, and some of the local asshats have a way of making the social pressure very palpable despite the limitations of the medium.
That said, this is much less so than in any comparable group I can think of, and these dynamics are part of the local discourse so at least "we" are aware of it. Peedycom is a pretty cool place, but it is still, unfortunately, inhabited by homo sapiens. There is no escaping this fact.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 23, 2008, 09:02:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 23, 2008, 08:58:15 PM
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
Bacon, vocoders, and pterodactyls.
and mustaches.
And this:
:cramstipated:
I think I figured it out.
We're different because everyone argues and there is great butthurt, instead of getting along and tossing out dissenters (usually).
TITCM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 12:37:03 AM
I'd like to think that's entirely true, but there is some pressure for sombunal newbs. There are types of behavior and opinion that are basically not tolerated here, and some of the local asshats have a way of making the social pressure very palpable despite the limitations of the medium.
That said, this is much less so than in any comparable group I can think of, and these dynamics are part of the local discourse so at least "we" are aware of it. Peedycom is a pretty cool place, but it is still, unfortunately, inhabited by homo sapiens. There is no escaping this fact.
The biggest bone of contention will be someone coming in with the Pinealist-speak, realizing that despite the domain name we're really not into that, and then continue to do it anyway. And then, complain about not fitting in, or not be accepted. Maybe it's a pressure for some, but I would tend to think that perhaps they need that pressure, that perhaps it will bring about a realization that there is more to this whole thing then the superficial, cliche gags.
It's not so much that we want people to think like us. Clearly, we often times don't agree with each other so I don't think there is really any sort of consensus on how to think. The consensus, is To Think.
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
I think so, we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
TITCM
Sometimes, people that think for themselves may decide "Hey, I like the memes from the PD. I think I will use them and be silly." Sometimes I do. The use of memes doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't thinking for themselves, does it? It may mean they simply thought up a different answer, or maybe they grokked the funnay in the PD and some spags here didn't. Of course, it may also mean that they aren't thinking for themselves... but what's wrong with that, if its what they want to do?
I think that being choosy about online friends seems fine. If some people don't like pinealists, then they shouldn't pretend that they do. I'm just not sure that its wise to make this some altruistic "We just want them to better themselves... like us" motive (not that I'm accusing RHWN of that, this is just an observation).
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PMIt's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
If we think for ourselves we can haz moar followers than jesus?
:mullet:
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, because it was the argument made by those who fled for EB&G and other locales once the PD06/BIP thing got rolling.
But, as I argued back then, the fundamental difference is that we aren't prescribing HOW one Thinks for themselves, just, that they think for themselves. That's different from Christianity and other religions. Christianity wants you to think like Christians, and then, lay out what that looks like.
In fact you've probably already seen what happens when someone, intentionally or unintentionally, suggests what a Discordian
should do or how a Discordian
should act of behave. I've made the mistake myself. You get royally beaten about the head by the others, because that's not what we're supposed to be about.
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 24, 2008, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, because it was the argument made by those who fled for EB&G and other locales once the PD06/BIP thing got rolling.
But, as I argued back then, the fundamental difference is that we aren't prescribing HOW one Thinks for themselves, just, that they think for themselves. That's different from Christianity and other religions. Christianity wants you to think like Christians, and then, lay out what that looks like.
In fact you've probably already seen what happens when someone, intentionally or unintentionally, suggests what a Discordian should do or how a Discordian should act of behave. I've made the mistake myself. You get royally beaten about the head by the others, because that's not what we're supposed to be about.
We aren't telling them how to Think For Themselves? Not even a little bit?
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 24, 2008, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, because it was the argument made by those who fled for EB&G and other locales once the PD06/BIP thing got rolling.
But, as I argued back then, the fundamental difference is that we aren't prescribing HOW one Thinks for themselves, just, that they think for themselves. That's different from Christianity and other religions. Christianity wants you to think like Christians, and then, lay out what that looks like.
In fact you've probably already seen what happens when someone, intentionally or unintentionally, suggests what a Discordian should do or how a Discordian should act of behave. I've made the mistake myself. You get royally beaten about the head by the others, because that's not what we're supposed to be about.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2008, 03:43:02 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 24, 2008, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, because it was the argument made by those who fled for EB&G and other locales once the PD06/BIP thing got rolling.
But, as I argued back then, the fundamental difference is that we aren't prescribing HOW one Thinks for themselves, just, that they think for themselves. That's different from Christianity and other religions. Christianity wants you to think like Christians, and then, lay out what that looks like.
In fact you've probably already seen what happens when someone, intentionally or unintentionally, suggests what a Discordian should do or how a Discordian should act of behave. I've made the mistake myself. You get royally beaten about the head by the others, because that's not what we're supposed to be about.
We aren't telling them how to Think For Themselves? Not even a little bit?
How to think =/= what to think
There's a difference between "here's a map" and "use it to go here"
What does happen round here is that if someone arrives at a belief they'll get laid into because beliefs are dumb and the end of thinking.
I believe that with all my heart :evil:
How can you believe that shit?
[/saw it coming]
Just because we don't explicitly discuss how one should think for themselves, doesn't mean there isn't any implicit pressure. But again, this place is better off in this respect by leaps and bounds compared to any other place I can compare it with.
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 24, 2008, 03:50:37 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2008, 03:43:02 PM
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 24, 2008, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 01:54:37 PM
I agree with you. But I must also believe that what you're saying is potentially a groupthink thought-pattern that is a mainstay of these boards.
I think these boards are fundamentally just like every other herd of humans, except this herd is united around a beacon that yells "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!", which alleviates many of the ills of herd behavior. The fact that many of us want newcomers to think for themselves is not fundamentally unlike Christians wanting others to Accept Jesus As Their Lord And Savior. It's just that Christianity is antiquated and made of bullshit and fail, and TFY,S! is a concept many of us are proud to stand behind.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, because it was the argument made by those who fled for EB&G and other locales once the PD06/BIP thing got rolling.
But, as I argued back then, the fundamental difference is that we aren't prescribing HOW one Thinks for themselves, just, that they think for themselves. That's different from Christianity and other religions. Christianity wants you to think like Christians, and then, lay out what that looks like.
In fact you've probably already seen what happens when someone, intentionally or unintentionally, suggests what a Discordian should do or how a Discordian should act of behave. I've made the mistake myself. You get royally beaten about the head by the others, because that's not what we're supposed to be about.
We aren't telling them how to Think For Themselves? Not even a little bit?
How to think =/= what to think
There's a difference between "here's a map" and "use it to go here"
What does happen round here is that if someone arrives at a belief they'll get laid into because beliefs are dumb and the end of thinking.
I believe that with all my heart :evil:
But, aren't we still, in your example, 'handing them a map'?
Quote from: Verbatim on June 24, 2008, 04:10:20 PM
Just because we don't explicitly discuss how one should think for themselves, doesn't mean there isn't any implicit pressure. But again, this place is better off in this respect by leaps and bounds compared to any other place I can compare it with.
I agree with this comment.
You missed the point. His point was that we hand them the map but don't tell them how to navigate it. Additionally, the map isn't a finished product, and we acknowledge that on a persistent basis.
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 24, 2008, 05:47:08 PM
You missed the point. His point was that we hand them the map but don't tell them how to navigate it. Additionally, the map isn't a finished product, and we acknowledge that on a persistent basis.
Well, firstly... the fact that we can have this sort of discussion and still hang out and LOL afterward, indicates a major difference between "Us" and "THEM". :wink:
However... I guess what I'm saying is "Who the hell are we to hand them "the map"?" How do we know that our map is better than the one that they have? Maybe they've got a useful map that they already came up with, maybe they liked the map that Mal-2 handed them and are using it to do their own navigations, maybe they have five different maps and use whichever one they want, whenever they want.
At any rate, it does seem, to me, that we often presume that a n00b NEEDS our Map, or that their own map is somehow wrong, because it involves 23PINEALOMGZLAWLOFFIVES... yet, that map may be just as useful as ZOMGBiPGSPBlackSwan! to some people.
I'm all for publishing as many maps as we can make of the territory, I'm all for making them freely available and accessible to anyone, I'm all for challenging whatever maps anyone uses (including the BiP and PinealFnords)... but I do think that (at least occasionally) we seem to think that handing someone a map and saying "use this", might be a bit of Group Think.
I think this problem is artifactual though. A year ago, any critique of the BiP or Barstool Experiment seemed likely to be met with "NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG"... whereas now, the general response seems much less defensive and more interested in refining the ideas.
In the end, I think our group works hard to abstain from labeling everything and Group Think...
but in the end "We're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - Dr Steel. :wink:
I don't think we're guilty of indoctrination, which is what this discussion boils down to. There is definitely pressure to 'think for yourself' around here, but it's a 'sink or swim' kind of pressure. We do manufacture and distribute all kinds of maps, many of which contradict each other. But the pressure isn't applied when people disagree with the prevalent interpretation around here -- we encourage people to join the discussions we have and when they do, we are pretty quick to include those 'foreign' views into our the general considerations.
The pressure is applied when we think somebody is parroting something else (even if the person is just parroting us), or when a person refuses to have two-way communication with others.
And yet I often catch myself thinking, what would the peedycomers think?. It's a very stupid reflex, but I find it hard to imagine it's just me who is like this. I don't exactly see myself as an unusually conforming individual.
This place is a very cool place to hang out, and many of you guys are clearly of unusual intelligence and eloquence. A human brain that wishes to join the fun is likely to try and rewire itself to fit in better.
It is an inescapable fact that sombunall newbs will try to parrot or emulate the language and attitude of some of the more prominent members of the community. People used to groupthink are not going to just magically start thinking 100% individually - and a huge majority of humanity is used to groupthink. I would not be surprised if groupthink turned out to be based on a genetic trait present in all of mankind - in the environment where humanity evolved, it was a survival mechanism.
...And then there's me, who wonders why we can't all just keep a collection of various maps in our mental briefcase.
One map will only get you so far and only tell you so much. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking event each time an individual starts using a new one.
One of the things that I think annoys many people about newbies here is their tendency (which I have not seen on other boards, only here) to interject utter pineal nonsense into perfectly interesting threads. I'm not sure where the idea to get this comes from, but it seems obvious that many n00bs think it's The Thing to Do, and if no one responds with delight and accolades, or instead is (quite reasonably) annoyed that some spaz seems to be trying to hijack the thread, they get all defensive and accuse us of not having a sense of silliness, which is quite unfair.
Also, I'm not sure we ARE fundamentally different, or that being different is some sort of elevated goal. It's like the age-old question, "What sets Man apart from the animals?"
It's a red herring. Man is not different from "the animals", but among the animals, Man is as different from other species as a horse is different from a badger. There is no need to look for "The Difference"; it does not exist.
Regardless of this discussion about maps, beyond the intellectual debates, "we" are a social group, liable to social pressures and dynamics.
To make this miniature society work, "we" ask that newcomers comply with a loose template of the kind of people we like.
This is a very loose template, but it does seem to exist.
"We" are only monkeys, after all.
Quote from: Cainad on June 24, 2008, 06:37:19 PM
...And then there's me, who wonders why we can't all just keep a collection of various maps in our mental briefcase.
One map will only get you so far and only tell you so much. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking event each time an individual starts using a new one.
Because we have all been programmed to believe that somewhere, there is the One True Map that will free us from uncertainty and doubt, and will be adequate and appropriate 100% of the time.
Quote from: Nigel on June 24, 2008, 06:42:56 PM
One of the things that I think annoys many people about newbies here is their tendency (which I have not seen on other boards, only here) to interject utter pineal nonsense into perfectly interesting threads.
That is one thing that annoys me about
everyone on this board, not just noobs. Even myself sometimes.
Quote from: Cainad on June 24, 2008, 06:37:19 PM
...And then there's me, who wonders why we can't all just keep a collection of various maps in our mental briefcase.
One map will only get you so far and only tell you so much. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking event each time an individual starts using a new one.
I agree 123%. I fact, that reads to me like a single sentence distillation of RAW's "Model Agnosticism" and the point behind my YABIPM.
We have a idea of the territory "There are always restrictions on our ability to interact fully with REALITY". Some people created a map "The territory is like a BiP", but it seems, that this is the Main way that people have decided to interpret the territory (in this example). Yet, this seems limiting in and of itself...
There appear to me, lots of ways to model the territory "There are always restrictions on our ability to interact fully with REALITY". Some of them seem useful in some applications, others seem useful in other applications. Some people seem trapped in their perceptions and restrictions, for them the territory may very much be like a BiP. However, for others, they may not be trapped in their perceptions or trapped in their human sensory limits. After all, while the astronaut may have to remain in his space suit to experience a spacewalk, I doubt he thinks that he's trapped or limited, rather he's more likely to be very happy to have the suit's restrictions, or the ships restrictions... otherwise he would have no way to explore to coolness of space. The deep sea diver may be similar, she may not be "trapped" in her submarine or her pressure suit... she probably sees them as awesome tools which allow her to explore further than ever before. While using them, these explorers may find artificial limits that can be engineered around... improved upon... but there are also limits (like access to oxygen, pressurized environment etc) that can't be changed or engineered around.
It seems to me that overall PD.COM has done a fantastic job of getting really deeply into the map of the territory that resembles a prison... and it may occasionally seem that people confuse the map and territory, particularly in the perspective of n00bs, who might be used to a more positive view that "Black Prison" might invoke.
Muddles of models... :lulz:
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2008, 05:59:30 PM
I think this problem is artifactual though. A year ago, any critique of the BiP or Barstool Experiment seemed likely to be met with "NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG"... whereas now, the general response seems much less defensive and more interested in refining the ideas.
When I have an idea I like, I treat it as something to explore. To that end, I temporarily hold it higher than other ideas. I'll go after critics, and defend my idea fiercly. If it doesn't hold up, that will soon become evident.
After time passes, I can lower my opinion of the idea, and start polishing. I can start sanding off the rough edges, maybe merge it into something else.
But if I didn't actively defend my new idea, no one else would, either, and it would quickly die a relativistic death.
Quote
In the end, I think our group works hard to abstain from labeling everything and Group Think...
but in the end "We're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - Dr Steel. :wink:
Sometimes I think you're reading this board with a filter that deletes all the self-depricating, "We're all monkey, we're in prison too, we're all assholes, we're a bunch of fucktards" comments.
Because you're making it sound like we're claiming to be the ubermensch, or something.
I just remembered something.
When I first came here, I stuck around because of how ridiculously *original* this place was, you weren't busy rehashing old ideas, or even just talking about other people's ideas. You had your *own* damned ideas. Appeals to authority were rapidly dismissed (perhaps a little too hard sometimes). As the 'you' became 'we' (damn Roger's mind control lasers), I found that that spark of originality is rarer than I thought, and forgot about just how different this place was coming in as an outsider.
Also, this has to be the only group of people I've ever known where I could ask that question and have it not be a troll.
Quote from: Requiem on June 25, 2008, 01:42:12 AM
I just remembered something.
When I first came here, I stuck around because of how ridiculously *original* this place was, you weren't busy rehashing old ideas, or even just talking about other people's ideas. You had your *own* damned ideas. Appeals to authority were rapidly dismissed (perhaps a little too hard sometimes). As the 'you' became 'we' (damn Roger's mind control lasers), I found that that spark of originality is rarer than I thought, and forgot about just how different this place was coming in as an outsider.
Also, this has to be the only group of people I've ever known where I could ask that question and have it not be a troll.
:mittens:
This also reminds me what really amazed me here, in the beginning: in a word, POSTERGASM - that it's not all talk, that there is a sense of actually
doing something IRL. This is extremely rare, not only in the Internet but amongst activists everywhere.
Speaking as someone who has recently started posting here, I would say that this place IS different from most others and here is why:
For one I agree with Verbatim about the POSTERGASM thing, most places are all theory and no action, here ideas spread and it actually gets done IRL!!
Not only that but it makes me WANT to go out and be a part of it too. Not because I want to fit in, not because I feel pressured or any of that silly shit. I want to do this because it's a great fucking idea!! It's fun as hell AND I can get plenty of other people, other non-Discordian people to do it with me. (Going to Kinko's this week I suppose)
This was the second Discordian message board I stopped at, and I stuck here because instead of 23's and Fnords I have found it is full of things that MAKE me think. :eek:
While thinking, I tend to get inspired to write, read/learn, create, and go out and doooooo something. (And that is how the peedee changed my life... :lulz:)
Quote from: LMNO on June 24, 2008, 08:46:47 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2008, 05:59:30 PM
I think this problem is artifactual though. A year ago, any critique of the BiP or Barstool Experiment seemed likely to be met with "NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG"... whereas now, the general response seems much less defensive and more interested in refining the ideas.
When I have an idea I like, I treat it as something to explore. To that end, I temporarily hold it higher than other ideas. I'll go after critics, and defend my idea fiercly. If it doesn't hold up, that will soon become evident.
After time passes, I can lower my opinion of the idea, and start polishing. I can start sanding off the rough edges, maybe merge it into something else.
But if I didn't actively defend my new idea, no one else would, either, and it would quickly die a relativistic death.
Sure, its good to defend a new model... but the BiP model has been floating around for a couple years now. I guess I approach models differently. If I come up with a new model, once its fleshed out, I try to figure out what it doesn't model, rather than defending what it does. So maybe its just a difference in approach.
Quote
Quote
In the end, I think our group works hard to abstain from labeling everything and Group Think...
but in the end "We're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - Dr Steel. :wink:
Sometimes I think you're reading this board with a filter that deletes all the self-depricating, "We're all monkey, we're in prison too, we're all assholes, we're a bunch of fucktards" comments.
Because you're making it sound like we're claiming to be the ubermensch, or something.
I certianly didn't intend it that way. My point was that we are monkeys and we work damn hard not to be monkeys (but the programs still occasionally run... that is, we may try hard not to ever has teh Groupthink, but old programs still run). We are a self-deprecating group, and I think that shines through in most of the posts at pd.com.
Quote from: Verbatim on June 25, 2008, 02:21:14 AM
Quote from: Requiem on June 25, 2008, 01:42:12 AM
I just remembered something.
When I first came here, I stuck around because of how ridiculously *original* this place was, you weren't busy rehashing old ideas, or even just talking about other people's ideas. You had your *own* damned ideas. Appeals to authority were rapidly dismissed (perhaps a little too hard sometimes). As the 'you' became 'we' (damn Roger's mind control lasers), I found that that spark of originality is rarer than I thought, and forgot about just how different this place was coming in as an outsider.
Also, this has to be the only group of people I've ever known where I could ask that question and have it not be a troll.
:mittens:
This also reminds me what really amazed me here, in the beginning: in a word, POSTERGASM - that it's not all talk, that there is a sense of actually doing something IRL. This is extremely rare, not only in the Internet but amongst activists everywhere.
I agree. I love all of the GASM activity... it feels like Discordians doing something, rather than Discordians reading a book about Discordians doing something ;-)
This Forum Rocks, otherwise I wouldn't hang around. But, I don't have a problem with realizing that like all other monkeys, our tribe will develop taboos and traditions and groupthink. Of course, since we all realize our monkeydom, then if we see monkey programs, maybe it will be easier to break them.
Our heads are smart so our memes are strong.
We're playing with fire :evil:
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 24, 2008, 03:32:24 PM
Sometimes, people that think for themselves may decide "Hey, I like the memes from the PD. I think I will use them and be silly." Sometimes I do. The use of memes doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't thinking for themselves, does it? It may mean they simply thought up a different answer, or maybe they grokked the funnay in the PD and some spags here didn't. Of course, it may also mean that they aren't thinking for themselves... but what's wrong with that, if its what they want to do?
nothing, but they can go do it somewhere else, right?
the memes from the PD are basically about jokes, and if they spew them here, nobody is laughing.
QuoteAt any rate, it does seem, to me, that we often presume that a n00b NEEDS our Map, or that their own map is somehow wrong, because it involves 23PINEALOMGZLAWLOFFIVES... yet, that map may be just as useful as ZOMGBiPGSPBlackSwan! to some people.
shit, ratatosk... what's the use of even discussing stuff with you if you act like you totally understand it and then weeks later appear to have completely forgotten/not learned a thing? (sorry i may sound a bit annoyed, but i did spend effort in those discussions)
remember when i explained you how, for example, Leary's 8 circuit model of the mind is old and has been surpassed by newer and better theories in psychology? just because someone had an idea
once doesn't mean it will stay an equally useful map as any other until the end of times!
do you
ever invalidate a map?
or do you say all of them are equally possible/useful, mr model agnostic? then how about theories that are being developed, are all prior versions starting at the initial spark of inspiration just as useful as the finished theory? even if the theory hit a few dead end streets along the way? how does that work?
QuoteI'm all for publishing as many maps as we can make of the territory, I'm all for making them freely available and accessible to anyone, I'm all for challenging whatever maps anyone uses (including the BiP and PinealFnords)... but I do think that (at least occasionally) we seem to think that handing someone a map and saying "use this", might be a bit of Group Think.
well i think that's a bad idea. if you just consider everything equally useful and valid, it'll be super easy to simply flood the meme-o-sphere with maps, regardless of their content.
the end result?
nobody can consider all those maps seriously anymore, simply for lack of information-processing time (i have a limited speed with which i can read and think), which in the end will cause people to simply stick to the one they grew up with, or the first one they use to rebel with, or just pick any random one.
if everything is valid, you will be blinded by choice.
------- okay other things ITT
Quote from: verbAnd yet I often catch myself thinking, what would the peedycomers think?. It's a very stupid reflex, but I find it hard to imagine it's just me who is like this.
yes. this is the egregor thing described in the Art of Memetics (ZOMG! :roll:). it's like .. eh .. too complex to explain right now cause i'm short on time. but it's very useful to think like that, don't you think?
if you are in a situation and consider what PD would think, it's still your own thoughts making up the answer, but they come from a different subroutine, a new one that you learned.
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 25, 2008, 03:03:46 PM
Our heads are smart so our memes are strong.
We're playing with fire :evil:
:mittens:
Quote from: triple zero on June 25, 2008, 03:09:47 PM
the memes from the PD are basically about jokes, and if they spew them here, nobody is laughing.
I disagree.
QuoteAt any rate, it does seem, to me, that we often presume that a n00b NEEDS our Map, or that their own map is somehow wrong, because it involves 23PINEALOMGZLAWLOFFIVES... yet, that map may be just as useful as ZOMGBiPGSPBlackSwan! to some people.
shit, ratatosk... what's the use of even discussing stuff with you if you act like you totally understand it and then weeks later appear to have completely forgotten/not learned a thing? (sorry i may sound a bit annoyed, but i did spend effort in those discussions)
remember when i explained you how, for example, Leary's 8 circuit model of the mind is old and has been surpassed by newer and better theories in psychology? just because someone had an idea
once doesn't mean it will stay an equally useful map as any other until the end of times!
do you
ever invalidate a map?
[/quote]
Some maps are absolutely invalid. I think Leary's map is useful to reference some things and utter horseshit (esp after the 4th circuit). However, if the map works for someone else, then what the fuck business is it of mine? Perhaps they grok what I don't. I invalidate the maps that don't seem to provide useful data or correlate with the experiences I've had. I don't know what else we could base the value of maps on.
Quote
or do you say all of them are equally possible/useful, mr model agnostic? then how about theories that are being developed, are all prior versions starting at the initial spark of inspiration just as useful as the finished theory? even if the theory hit a few dead end streets along the way? how does that work?
I tend to reject the idea that any model is True, or that any model provides us with THE BEST X. Mostly, cause I figure that map works, but only for the people that grok its symbols... the model works only for the people that read that sort of model. POEE Discordianism, for me, seems like a useful map, for you it doesn't... that's fine and cool. I think we can agree that location, society etc. all impact the usability of any given map. As of yet, I have not found a map that models nonsense as a valid reality grid nearly as well as the PD.
Quote
QuoteI'm all for publishing as many maps as we can make of the territory, I'm all for making them freely available and accessible to anyone, I'm all for challenging whatever maps anyone uses (including the BiP and PinealFnords)... but I do think that (at least occasionally) we seem to think that handing someone a map and saying "use this", might be a bit of Group Think.
well i think that's a bad idea. if you just consider everything equally useful and valid, it'll be super easy to simply flood the meme-o-sphere with maps, regardless of their content.
the end result?
nobody can consider all those maps seriously anymore, simply for lack of information-processing time (i have a limited speed with which i can read and think), which in the end will cause people to simply stick to the one they grew up with, or the first one they use to rebel with, or just pick any random one.
Precisely.
It seems silly to me, to think that we should have only a few maps and then that we should take those maps seriously.
I think we all agree that (in the instance being generally discussed) the territory being described could be considered the inability of humans to be completely free of all restrictions of perception and biology.
The BiP presents this in one map:
Your reality is like a prison, you're a prisoner, maybe you can get a bigger cell, Think.The PD presents another map:
Your reality is what you want to do, you're in charge of ordering and disordering, Laugh.
As far as I can tell, both maps are valid. Both maps tell us something about the territory. And there are lots of other ways we can map out the territory.
Your reality is like a spaceship, a self contained system that allows only limited views of the outside... but with it you can explore the Undiscovered Country called Reality. Explore.II think that too is a valid map.
GSP = Valid Map
All of them seem to me as valid, all of them seem, to me, as useful. None of them, as far as I can tell present a More True view.
Rather they seem complimentary to each other, if taken together it says "Think, Laugh, Explore" and people can choose one, or all.
Quote
nobody can consider all those maps seriously anymore, simply for lack of information-processing time (i have a limited speed with which i can read and think), which in the end will cause people to simply stick to the one they grew up with, or the first one they use to rebel with, or just pick any random one.
Ah, so we don't want to confuse the plebes, better if we pick the maps and tell them which ones to use? I know you better than that, 000 ;-)
Our discussion weeks ago gave me a more useful perspective. I gained an appreciation for the BiP model that I didn't have before... but that appreciation exists because it fits with these other maps in my head... that map alone would simply not fit with what I've experienced in life, nor would it provide much in the way of useful information. In conjunction with POEE maps and my little spaceship map, suddenly it does make sense, because it's modeling an Aspect of what I think the territory might be. It models the sort of reality I used to live in (and I think that's one of the reasons I didn't like it), but it doesn't fit with where I am now, the POEE or spaceship model seems to fit better. All three of them together, though seem to map out a pretty good view of what I've experienced in the territory. Probably a few extra maps wouldn't hurt either.
For me more maps are better, if I really want to understand the territory.
If I wanted to really understand the territory "Columbus Ohio" I would probably have a street map, a topographical map, a census map, if I really wanted to get a deep understanding of the territory, I'd also grap a map of the utilities/sewage, maybe a bus route map, possibly a map of average incomes in neighborhoods.
I don't think that's confusing or blinding... its simply more maps with more information.
I can only answer what makes this place different for me, and why I hang around here and not elsewhere:
1. action potential. Ideas are often translated into IRL ACTION.
2. Operation: Mindfuck. My favorite forum, and it's the one I check first when I sign on in the morning. It's a good mix of pranks which make me lol and pranks which have some "good cause" (usually an absurd one) attached to them. I like projects and activities, and this is one of the best places on the net to think up / DO them
3. A group dedicated to coming up with new jokes rather than laughing at other people's jokes. We're not passive observers of culture! We're out here on the fringe, MAKING it. we don't always succeed, but damnit, we're actually TRYING. Can't say that for most other internet communities.
4. A broad spectrum of interests and ideas, so you can find something here whether you like discordia, memetics, stupid jokes, cooking, trolling, culture, whatever... there are people here who participate in some parts and not others, and bring unique things to the pot. and often, people are interested in learning new stuff, so they get to experiment with stuff they're exposed to from the board. For example, I've learned a few recepies from the cooking board, and I probably wouldn't have heard of them otherwise. It makes for a very vibrant and vital community.
5. people seem to like doing my bidding and spreading my memes :evil:
:argh!: < That'll teach ya!
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 25, 2008, 05:30:04 PM
I can only answer what makes this place different for me, and why I hang around here and not elsewhere:
1. action potential. Ideas are often translated into IRL ACTION.
2. Operation: Mindfuck. My favorite forum, and it's the one I check first when I sign on in the morning. It's a good mix of pranks which make me lol and pranks which have some "good cause" (usually an absurd one) attached to them. I like projects and activities, and this is one of the best places on the net to think up / DO them
3. A group dedicated to coming up with new jokes rather than laughing at other people's jokes. We're not passive observers of culture! We're out here on the fringe, MAKING it. we don't always succeed, but damnit, we're actually TRYING. Can't say that for most other internet communities.
4. A broad spectrum of interests and ideas, so you can find something here whether you like discordia, memetics, stupid jokes, cooking, trolling, culture, whatever... there are people here who participate in some parts and not others, and bring unique things to the pot. and often, people are interested in learning new stuff, so they get to experiment with stuff they're exposed to from the board. For example, I've learned a few recepies from the cooking board, and I probably wouldn't have heard of them otherwise. It makes for a very vibrant and vital community.
5. people seem to like doing my bidding and spreading my memes :evil:
Awesome response.
Point taken. Cram, you should organize something cool to do IRL. Forum trolling is totally not my thing, and I'm getting tired of writing odd messages on things with my Sharpie and drawing monocles and moustaches on my bills.
Edit: I will never get tired of these things. But seriously...
Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.
Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.
Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common. Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.
Did you just insult my extelligence?
\\
:mullet:
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2008, 01:34:04 PM
Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.
Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.
Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common. Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.
PD.com as a memetic entity?
Ohhhh.......
Quote from: nostalgicBadger on June 26, 2008, 07:34:43 AM
Point taken. Cram, you should organize something cool to do IRL.
NO U :p
SRSLY though, as much as I organize projects, pranks, and missions, I hope that win lose or draw, it serves as an inspiration for others to get off their asses and do it for themselves. See also: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=16552.0
PD needs more leader-types! If you don't like PD, make it into what you want. Too much trolling? It comes and goes in waves. You can't change people's attitude towards trolling, but you CAN launch projects which suggest a course of action you'd enjoy more. Want more IRL projects? We are your personal army,
if your idea is fun and easy to do. That's what the Golden Apple Seed Missions are all about.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 26, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2008, 01:34:04 PM
Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.
Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.
Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common. Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.
PD.com as a memetic entity?
Ohhhh.......
yeah we are. didn't you ever notice?
i told verb in this (or another?) thread, how his thoughts of "what would peedee think of this" is kinda egregor-like.
we are (as i explained LMNO in the $0.99 thread) also a Mastermind Group, as defined in the AoM.
and we're a kind of superpersonal organism, with a very strong immune system (you also want to stay out of the range of our "sting" :evil:)
we are the discordian network. and the stfupid cabal. and central GASM command (even though we try not to be).
and fuck damn we are AWESOME AS FUCK
(the last not having much to do with being a memetic entity, but it's still
scientific fact)
In fact, it is so true, it is even also an alchemical truth.
Quote from: triple zero on June 27, 2008, 11:47:00 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 26, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2008, 01:34:04 PM
Assumption One: that we are 'any different' from others.
Its entirely possible we fall within a medium/higher range of a perfectly normal scale of skills, only that through memetic propagation, peer pressure and other factors we have managed to dissuade most of those on the lower end of the scale from being present.
Assumption two: that whatever could mark us out as being either higher on the scale or indeed off it is something we all share in common. Its entirely possible this is not the case and in fact it is a multiplicity of skills and expertise that contribute to an overall higher group extelligence that otherwise would not exist.
PD.com as a memetic entity?
Ohhhh.......
yeah we are. didn't you ever notice?
i told verb in this (or another?) thread, how his thoughts of "what would peedee think of this" is kinda egregor-like.
we are (as i explained LMNO in the $0.99 thread) also a Mastermind Group, as defined in the AoM.
and we're a kind of superpersonal organism, with a very strong immune system (you also want to stay out of the range of our "sting" :evil:)
we are the discordian network. and the stfupid cabal. and central GASM command (even though we try not to be).
and fuck damn we are AWESOME AS FUCK
(the last not having much to do with being a memetic entity, but it's still scientific fact)
You mean we're not a cult? I thought I was joining a cult! I want my damn money back!
Okay, I'll give you a 100% refund of what you paid: DOODLY SQUAT, HAHA!
[/daruko]
This is a great discussion.
The map metaphor never ceases to inspire me. I suppose that dispensing with maps altogether is the goal of Taoism, but in reality they are just looking at another map (a sometimes interesting one, admittedly) and are claiming it is the territory. It makes you wonder what the nature of the territory "really" is, and whether it is even possible to see it.
To dangerously extend the metaphor, think of taboos as "Here There Be Dragons" spots and concepts newly encountered as unmapped roads and towns. Does the style of the map you are using when you break a taboo, or encounter a new town, travel with you to the other maps when you decide to switch to a new one? Do you have to break the taboo again to know what it looks like on this map, or can you extrapolate?
Sorry... I think I got high off this metaphor.
Quote from: Professor Mu-Chao on September 25, 2008, 03:08:46 AM
This is a great discussion.
The map metaphor never ceases to inspire me. I suppose that dispensing with maps altogether is the goal of Taoism, but in reality they are just looking at another map (a sometimes interesting one, admittedly) and are claiming it is the territory. It makes you wonder what the nature of the territory "really" is, and whether it is even possible to see it.
To dangerously extend the metaphor, think of taboos as "Here There Be Dragons" spots and concepts newly encountered as unmapped roads and towns. Does the style of the map you are using when you break a taboo, or encounter a new town, travel with you to the other maps when you decide to switch to a new one? Do you have to break the taboo again to know what it looks like on this map, or can you extrapolate?
Sorry... I think I got high off this metaphor.
This is good stuff Mu-Chao, dunno how I missed it.
I think there are still plenty of "Here There Be Dragons" areas on most maps... Hell, even scientists use them (the GUT, the mechanics of Abiogenesis, what made the Bang Big... etc). In some maps, the areas may be so marked, because they don't want you going there. In other areas it might be because they don't know what is there. Once science mapped the human body with the brain as a radiator for the blood. ;-)
I have begun to wonder if we truly ever 'switch to a new map', as opposed to simply bringing another map up in a tab and focusing on it. Do we ever discard older maps completely?
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 02, 2008, 09:43:23 PM
I have begun to wonder if we truly ever 'switch to a new map', as opposed to simply bringing another map up in a tab and focusing on it. Do we ever discard older maps completely?
I don't think so - when you learn something new, I think that experience is colored by the map you are using at the moment. For example, as I said in another thread, Illuminatus is a young adult book. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the people I have met who truly love that book (or certain others, like many of Hesse's) read it before they were 25. Re-reading it now, I still enjoy it as much as I originally did, perhaps because my concept of that book was colored by those previous maps... but if I experienced it now for the first time, I doubt it would have the same profound effect on my life.
Maybe that disregards nostalgia and makes other unwarranted assumptions, but take another example like how you feel about a person you have met in the past that you disliked because they did something that you did not like or agree with - I'm sure we all have one. The next time you meet that person, you are going to carry that feeling with you whether you have a new map or not - whether you still think that what they did was wrong. That person can do something that changes your feelings about them, but all that does is update that small portion of the map you are using - the next time you meet them, using a different map, those residual beliefs about that person will stand unless overturned again.
i have no idea what specifically makes this place different
for me it was just process of elimination
other places made me feel not interested
plus - this forum has people with the skill to build their own forums - so in the instances where it turned into a piece of shit, the resourceful people bounced and set up shop elsewhere
1. its useful
2. nobody is obliged to stay
3. there is appreciation and acknowledgment of effort
4. there is a low tolerance for bullshit
5. humor
6. love
in retrospect tho - having been away from the forum for a while - i find it strange that this forum is mostly pale-skinned people, and i rarely get this caliber of discussion with white folk in the offline world
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
We have you.
I think the reason that we're different is that we can't agree on why we're different, and indeed, whether or not we are different, and whether or not that's meaningful. And I think some of us are okay with that, except sometimes.
This thread is six pages long now. The more you all disagree with this interpretation, the more supporting evidence I have for it. Enjoy.
Quote from: Manta Obscura on October 28, 2008, 05:43:06 PM
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
We have you.
Shit, best answer ever.
Quote from: Nigel on November 12, 2008, 01:45:28 AM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on October 28, 2008, 05:43:06 PM
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
We have you.
Shit, best answer ever.
:thanks:
Quote from: vexati0n on June 23, 2008, 05:32:41 AM
every reply so far has been empty posturing.
the answer is simple: it's because we are right, and they are wrong.
Remember this?
Ho ho!
Dok,
Agrees, of course.
shit, i've backslidden.
Bump. Lest we forget.
Quote from: Nigel on November 12, 2008, 01:45:28 AM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on October 28, 2008, 05:43:06 PM
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
We have you.
Shit, best answer ever.
I never really understood that answer. Is it supposed to mean that we're willing to question ourselves, or is it some we're all unique as individuals thing?
I haven't got a clue. Maybe it's both of those things. And so much more besides. That's what I think anyway.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on January 21, 2011, 05:58:42 AM
Quote from: Nigel on November 12, 2008, 01:45:28 AM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on October 28, 2008, 05:43:06 PM
Quote from: Requiem on June 23, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
What, exactly, makes us so different than every other modern counter culture that thinks it figured something out the rest of the masses didn't?
We have you.
Shit, best answer ever.
I never really understood that answer. Is it supposed to mean that we're willing to question ourselves, or is it some we're all unique as individuals thing?
No. Sorry Requia ... it's not us. It's
you.