Being only half aware of a problem is often as good as being entirely unaware of it. However, sometimes being half aware of a problem is half as good as being completely aware of it.
There seems to be a prevailing notion around these parts that most people are robots, and unaware of it. This is probably correct.
There are two concepts very often discussed in this context. One of these is the Black Iron Prison, the other is THE MACHINE™. The BIP is, in a sense, the personal counterpart of the social MACHINE™. It is also much more than that, but let us stick with this definition for a moment.
I propose that many people are, in fact, somewhat aware they are robots. They are half-aware of what we call THE MACHINE™. Think of it as a silent undercurrent in the collective experience of our era. The reason their awareness is incomplete, the reason they do not consciously grok the immensity of THE MACHINE™ in its entirety, is that they do not understand the concept of the BIP. They do not realize how limited, yet malleable, human brains are. And they do not realize this applies to them, personally. ("YUO")
The important thing is that a great deal of people alive today are, in fact, aware that they are robots. They just don't understand the problem in-depth, and do not understand how it applies to them personally. Thus, many feel powerless to do anything about it, and let themselves be swallowed whole by THE MACHINE™. They submit, and go back to sleep.
Some, however, manage to resist. The realization that we are all automatons shines through in the art of recent generations - from Pink Floyd to Mr. Bungle, from Soylent Green to The Matrix.
So what?
Well, it might just be possible to piggyback on the existing sense of hopelessness. Instead of firing brutally and wildly, we can take our aim very carefully and look for ways to help wake up the weary ones, the ones not yet resigned to sleep.
I have no idea how to do this. I'm just saying, there may be more awareness out there than we thought.
Or more than I thought, at any rate.
Kittymittens!
Nigel reads very fast, ITT
I like this, too.
It's akin to the problem RAW brought up; that you can read about something, but that's not the same as experiencing it.
So, some people will say, "yeah, I'm a robot/in prison/a cog in the Machine™", but that doesn't really mean anything to them, except they might act like they've "figured it all out".
My view on this is that no one is a 100% robot 100% of the time. Some actions might be done on autopilot, essentially letting the prevailing social currents decide for them, while others actions are fully free willed. So Mr. X might accept one set of poisonous memes without thinking about it or even noticing, but make a conscious decision on another set.
Awareness is irrelevant. Being a robot is convenient.
At the risk of making an unfair assessment, I would guess that most of us weren't particularly popular as kids, whatever we might be now. We were probably weird, and we probably got used to that. In a way, that can potentially make people more likeable as adults, but if you're not used to just embracing that you're weird, I imagine it can be a difficult thing to confront later in life.
Of course there are other factors. Not blindly accepting what society considers to be true takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of thought. I don't mean at all to sound condescending when I say this -- different people have different priorities, and that seems to be what keeps society moving. However, as long as going with the flow is easier than having to think everything out for yourself, I don't think all of the awareness of people's potential for freedom is going to make the least bit of difference.
Maybe I'm wrong about all of this, but from my perspective, the best way to force freedom upon people is not enlightening them to the fact that they're robots, but instead making it more difficult to be one. Things like GASM are the best step I've seen in this direction, at least from this particular community.
Quote from: nostalgicBadger on July 02, 2008, 02:16:04 AM
Maybe I'm wrong about all of this, but from my perspective, the best way to force freedom upon people is not enlightening them to the fact that they're robots, but instead making it more difficult to be one. Things like GASM are the best step I've seen in this direction, at least from this particular community.
I agree, there are already enough artists, bands, writers, etc. telling society that they are robots, so I'm fairly certain that one more group telling them won't make a difference. But if we can make it easier to break out of their robot state, then we will probably make some difference. Even if it is just changing people who are aware that they are robots, but can't be bothered to do anything about it.
I was thinking more along the lines of riffing on existing, popular memes.
Quote from: Rumckle on July 02, 2008, 03:21:45 AM
Quote from: nostalgicBadger on July 02, 2008, 02:16:04 AM
Maybe I'm wrong about all of this, but from my perspective, the best way to force freedom upon people is not enlightening them to the fact that they're robots, but instead making it more difficult to be one. Things like GASM are the best step I've seen in this direction, at least from this particular community.
I agree, there are already enough artists, bands, writers, etc. telling society that they are robots, so I'm fairly certain that one more group telling them won't make a difference. But if we can make it easier to break out of their robot state, then we will probably make some difference. Even if it is just changing people who are aware that they are robots, but can't be bothered to do anything about it.
People already know what the problem is. They are looking for solutions.
I may be totally misunderstanding the topic being discussed here so pardon svp if that's the case. & not wanting to take the People as Robots metaphor too literally but ... I don't think about people being born in a robotic state. Look around at little kids playing. They're not robots. They turn into robots as they learn to construct the bars (in the guise of ?). & as they grow, they're encouraged to build their ever more involved prisons by all the ideas presented in the BIP. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't happen over night. In fact, if it did, it would probably be so horrifying you wouldn't need to encourage a jail break! One step at a time is how little kids become automatons.
Awareness happens one step at a time too. The first step is becoming aware, waking up!
Happy Wake the Fuck Up Day!
Then more steps to see how entangled you are in the The Machine. More steps in denying all of these notions because it's too damn depressing. More steps in seeing some of the humor in your predicament. Getting angry about it. Wanting to laugh 'cause it's better than crying.
People do want solutions. People even get greedy. Building a better machine or prison. One brick at a time.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on July 05, 2008, 08:22:51 AM
People already know what the problem is. They are looking for solutions.
I would tend to think along. Here in the SSRF people are getting desperate, but the sad thing is their despair pushes them further onto the road to servitude. It's kind of like watching headless chickens run around pretending everything's normal (http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/). "Clueless" might be more accurate than "headless" in their case of course (
one can live without air for seconds, without water for days, without food for weeks and without a clue for ever), they bang on the BIP but all they get back from it is that it bangs back. Just like Mike didn't have a head to realise he was headless, they lack the clue to realise they are clueless.
If we're to deliver salvation, it should at least parody the look and feel of some solution they already think they know of. Or maybe parody the banging itself to rise awareness of how The Solution Is Actually The Problem.
Good words there, Jesrad. What's the SSRF? Russian Federation?
Also, I think you may have hit upon the reason why the PD was supposed to feel a little like a religious Holy Book.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on July 05, 2008, 08:22:51 AM
People already know what the problem is. They are looking for solutions.
I disagree... I think some people might know there's a problem... but I see little evidence to support the notion that they have any idea what the problem actually is. Even if we discount the particular problem/solution paradigm we talk about here... I really feel that most, but not all of the folks out there don't have a clue beyond perhaps, knowing that something is wrong. Atheists think religion is the problem, Conservatives think Liberals are the problem, Liberals think conservatives are the problem, Fred Phelps thinks gay people are the problem, some gay people think Fred Phelps is the problem. Many people I know think there is a Problem... and they tend to define the Problem as "THEM" (those people over there), rather than them
selves. I think back to the people I grew up with and I can tell you that most of them, not only seem to see 'the problem' as 'those people over there', but they also appear to have NO idea that they might be considered robots.
Hell, until I read RAW, Huxley, Alli, etc. I had no clue that my brain was making up shit, that it was constantly matching patterns and tricking me into thinking that was Objective Reality. The experiences I had in a matter of a couple years, coupled with the assortment of ideas I was exposed to, had a shocking effect on me. Before that time, I knew something was wrong, but I believed that 'something' was Satan, the ruler of this world and the billions of humans under his control.
And through the Lawl'o'Fives I saw a world that fit that belief.
Rat
Verbatim: thanks for this post. I like this analogy. I often get a little lost in the "escape from the BIP" discussions.
IMHO, LOTS of people know they are robots.
nostalgicBadger is correct in that, it is convenient (See: all those fucking hippies who wanted to change the world and are now corporate ceo's, see also: me). It is SAFE to be a robot. It is about our collective false sense of SECURITY.
Iason: I have to disagree: I don't think most people who are aware they are robots are looking for a solution. I believe that they have chosen to be robots ("if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice" neil peart) and will FIGHT to maintain the status quo.
Quote from: Rev. Voodoo on July 23, 2008, 07:05:37 PM
Verbatim: thanks for this post. I like this analogy. I often get a little lost in the "escape from the BIP" discussions.
IMHO, LOTS of people know they are robots.
nostalgicBadger is correct in that, it is convenient (See: all those fucking hippies who wanted to change the world and are now corporate ceo's, see also: me). It is SAFE to be a robot. It is about our collective false sense of SECURITY.
Iason: I have to disagree: I don't think most people who are aware they are robots are looking for a solution. I believe that they have chosen to be robots ("if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice" neil peart) and will FIGHT to maintain the status quo.
The quote you ascribed to Neil Peart was also written by Jean-Paul Sartre in the 1940's to explain the concept of 'anguish', an idea which was also hinted at by several existentialist writers before him. Sartre wrote a lot about anguish and absurdity, both of which are also strong Discordian themes. His essays are a bit lofty, but if you guys haven't read his plays at least, you should srsly consider it. George Bernard Shaw did a lot with these themes too around the time when Nietzsche was writing.
I get most of my existential philosophy from song lyrics and tv commercials
Song: "Free Will" by Rush.
:|
Alright, this may very well be the stupidest question ever asked on this forum, and may very well be laughed off the boards seeing as how I've only been here a day, but...
What, exactly, is the problem?
Now, I understand we're talking about most people knowing they're on some sort of 'autopilot' for a large part of the day (everyone does it, I'm sure most people here have regular jobs and aren't making explosives in their basement out of human fat). But trying to change the entire social order of the way the human race has operated on for the last goddess-knows-how-many years (Oligarchy for the most part) is a pretty tall order, and in my opinion A) not going to happen anytime soon B) maybe not an entirely good idea.
Now, hear me out. NostalgicBadger pointed out that there's probably a good chance most of us weren't very popular children, and I have a feeling he's right. Why?
Because being an individual is a goddamn tough life, especially as a child. Individuals stand out and get noticed, and the ruling body hates ideas that would counter its rule. If the class clown stands up to the school bully, the bully has two choices ; stand down as the alpha or kick the class clown's ass (two obvious choices, anyways. I mean, he COULD go make himself a sandwich). The body that makes up the mass of the population, in this case his school mates, also have two choices; stand up for the class clown or do nothing (again, two obvious choices. Seeing them break out into a choreographed version of 'Greased Lighting' would be awesome).
Most people do nothing. Why? Because they're lazy or scared.
Now to my point. In most cases I've seen (all anecdotal evidence, by-the-by) the people who are scared and/or willing to stand up to the bully stick together, and yes it's usually all the fantastically odd and weird kids. Everyone else is too lazy and not scared enough to change the way things are, or benefit directly from the bully being in charge. This little group doesn't have the power to change the hearts and minds of everyone at the school. They just bind together and do their own thing, trying to enjoy themselves.
So why help them? Why help the complacent, the apathetic, the leeches that exist? Because what I'm hearing here is a willingness to help people stop being robots and start being individuals. Is it an altruistic drive that lies inside of you? Some sort of sense of good you feel the need to achieve? Why waste your life helping people who may not be grateful, who may not appreciate the sacrifices you've made to help them see clearer. I personally don't get it myself.
Any thoughts? Maybe I'm just a selfish dickhead.
Quote from: Pieces on July 30, 2008, 11:05:14 PM
:|
Alright, this may very well be the stupidest question ever asked on this forum, and may very well be laughed off the boards seeing as how I've only been here a day, but...
What, exactly, is the problem?
Now, I understand we're talking about most people knowing they're on some sort of 'autopilot' for a large part of the day (everyone does it, I'm sure most people here have regular jobs and aren't making explosives in their basement out of human fat). But trying to change the entire social order of the way the human race has operated on for the last goddess-knows-how-many years (Oligarchy for the most part) is a pretty tall order, and in my opinion A) not going to happen anytime soon B) maybe not an entirely good idea.
Now, hear me out. NostalgicBadger pointed out that there's probably a good chance most of us weren't very popular children, and I have a feeling he's right. Why?
Because being an individual is a goddamn tough life, especially as a child. Individuals stand out and get noticed, and the ruling body hates ideas that would counter its rule. If the class clown stands up to the school bully, the bully has two choices ; stand down as the alpha or kick the class clown's ass (two obvious choices, anyways. I mean, he COULD go make himself a sandwich). The body that makes up the mass of the population, in this case his school mates, also have two choices; stand up for the class clown or do nothing (again, two obvious choices. Seeing them break out into a choreographed version of 'Greased Lighting' would be awesome).
Most people do nothing. Why? Because they're lazy or scared.
Now to my point. In most cases I've seen (all anecdotal evidence, by-the-by) the people who are scared and/or willing to stand up to the bully stick together, and yes it's usually all the fantastically odd and weird kids. Everyone else is too lazy and not scared enough to change the way things are, or benefit directly from the bully being in charge. This little group doesn't have the power to change the hearts and minds of everyone at the school. They just bind together and do their own thing, trying to enjoy themselves.
So why help them? Why help the complacent, the apathetic, the leeches that exist? Because what I'm hearing here is a willingness to help people stop being robots and start being individuals. Is it an altruistic drive that lies inside of you? Some sort of sense of good you feel the need to achieve? Why waste your life helping people who may not be grateful, who may not appreciate the sacrifices you've made to help them see clearer. I personally don't get it myself.
Any thoughts? Maybe I'm just a selfish dickhead.
Excellent points all around. Also a major reason why I think, if anything, we can hopefully fix some of our own programming or not be as robotic ourselves... But I am far less confident that any major shift will take place among the general population, unless its from robot to drone.
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 30, 2008, 11:38:26 PM
Excellent points all around. Also a major reason why I think, if anything, we can hopefully fix some of our own programming or not be as robotic ourselves... But I am far less confident that any major shift will take place among the general population, unless its from robot to drone.
Is that a step up or a step down....?
:lulz:
Quote from: Pieces on July 30, 2008, 11:05:14 PM
So why help them? Why help the complacent, the apathetic, the leeches that exist? Because what I'm hearing here is a willingness to help people stop being robots and start being individuals. Is it an altruistic drive that lies inside of you? Some sort of sense of good you feel the need to achieve? Why waste your life helping people who may not be grateful, who may not appreciate the sacrifices you've made to help them see clearer. I personally don't get it myself.
Any thoughts? Maybe I'm just a selfish dickhead.
Sacrifices we've made? Screw that; I thought supposed to be having fun with this shit.
Besides, can you imagine how hilarious it would be to have more robots reprogramming themselves?
Quote from: Cainad on July 30, 2008, 11:55:29 PM
Sacrifices we've made? Screw that; I thought supposed to be having fun with this shit.
Besides, can you imagine how hilarious it would be to have more robots reprogramming themselves?
Just saying there's probably a few people on these boards that spend an awful lot of time trying to throw a little disorder out there to solve a 'problem'. The thing about disorder is that you don't know what will come out the other end. If you have no goal in mind, this is a goddamn blast. But if you're trying to solve an issue, or 'problem', with chaos, well, you might be disappointed by what comes out the other end.
p.s Robot reprogramming themselves? The first thing that came to mind was Skynet.
Quote from: Pieces on July 31, 2008, 12:07:36 AM
Quote from: Cainad on July 30, 2008, 11:55:29 PM
Sacrifices we've made? Screw that; I thought supposed to be having fun with this shit.
Besides, can you imagine how hilarious it would be to have more robots reprogramming themselves?
Just saying there's probably a few people on these boards that spend an awful lot of time trying to throw a little disorder out there to solve a 'problem'. The thing about disorder is that you don't know what will come out the other end. If you have no goal in mind, this is a goddamn blast. But if you're trying to solve an issue, or 'problem', with chaos, well, you might be disappointed by what comes out the other end.
Maybe disorder/chaos is a win win game choice, if disorder happens and everyone has to step up and think for them self's
win if disorder happens and tyranny cracks its whip in response then more become aware of tyranny and struggle against it
win . This may work for both social change and self change (replace tyranny with prison bars )
Quote from: Pieces on July 30, 2008, 11:44:22 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 30, 2008, 11:38:26 PM
Excellent points all around. Also a major reason why I think, if anything, we can hopefully fix some of our own programming or not be as robotic ourselves... But I am far less confident that any major shift will take place among the general population, unless its from robot to drone.
Is that a step up or a step down....?
:lulz:
Traditional sci-fi robots are kind of autonomous and make decisions based on programming, Drones are typically a dumb unit that is under the full control of some spag. :wink:
Quote from: Pieces on July 30, 2008, 11:05:14 PM
:|
Alright, this may very well be the stupidest question ever asked on this forum, and may very well be laughed off the boards seeing as how I've only been here a day, but...
What, exactly, is the problem?
Now, I understand we're talking about most people knowing they're on some sort of 'autopilot' for a large part of the day (everyone does it, I'm sure most people here have regular jobs and aren't making explosives in their basement out of human fat). But trying to change the entire social order of the way the human race has operated on for the last goddess-knows-how-many years (Oligarchy for the most part) is a pretty tall order, and in my opinion A) not going to happen anytime soon B) maybe not an entirely good idea.
It seems that the point of the OP wasn't a desire to change all of society into free-thinking individuals (insert
Life of Brian reference here), it was to point out that some individuals fully understand and accept their role as robots. That they see the Machine™, and they see how their pre-programmed responses feed it, and they don't get that sickening feeling in their stomach, that sort of Dark Enlightenment... they don't see the joke, in other words. The see it as what IS. And they go on about their day, feeding the Machine™.
You ask, what's the problem? The problem is
the banality of evil. A large amount of the horrible shit we do to each other is supported by exactly these kind of people. If you ever want to know why Bush's popularity spiked the day after he was given the 2004 election, when all that happened is that he was anointed president, it was because of these people, the ones who "support the president" regardless of who he might be.
The whole point being; there's a lot of people out there who, when hearing about BIP and The Machine™ say, "So what?" They already
know. So your O:M, or your memebomb, or your pamphlet simply won't have any effect whatsoever.
So maybe we should think in a direction that can get through to these people. At least one of them, maybe two.
I don't think I can change society, but I do think I can help some poor schmuck realize that they are Free®.
Well, the way I see it, I am trying to give the truth about the way society works (trying not to sound arrogant here). And personally I think the truth is more important than people's contentment. Also, the way I see it, we aren't trying to bring down the whole social order, we are just trying to, at least, make people realise how the order works, not just believe everything, to think for themselves, this, I believe, won't completely upset society. Also, by helping these people we are helping ourselves, as was noted earlier.
Sure I may be wrong, but it is the folly of humans to push your own beliefs onto other people, if only in your own mind. So I know that my freethinking makes me happy, so it should be the same for others.
Also, I enjoy making some kind of difference, or at least trying to. Just like those people who volunteer, they generally do it because it makes themselves fell good about themselves (or because of a court order).
@LMNO:
I think that our O:Ms, memebombs, etc. could actually help some of those people who know of The Machine or BIP, in giving them ideas to copy our work.
That said, it is rather ineffective, and we do need another way of getting to these people.
How? I'm still not sure, hand out a crazy anarchist kit, complete with left-wing propaganda and home-made explosives, maybe?
In a thread similar to this I said "I don't want to change the world, I just want to make the world say WTF?" That is true, but I would like to help make the world better.
Short of all of those who "Get It"™ moving to a new island nation, I don't think we can ever expect to change society. Like I said, I believe most people who already know they are Robots™ will fight to keep things how they are.
But that doesn't mean we can't have fun!! I think our GASMs do 2 things, 1) they can startle people into thinking for themselves, and 2) they point out the hipocracy of those who know they are robots. For the rest of the robots it "[will] not compute.]
Quote from: LMNO on July 31, 2008, 01:20:05 PM
You ask, what's the problem? The problem is the banality of evil. A large amount of the horrible shit we do to each other is supported by exactly these kind of people. If you ever want to know why Bush's popularity spiked the day after he was given the 2004 election, when all that happened is that he was anointed president, it was because of these people, the ones who "support the president" regardless of who he might be.
Total fucking agreement.
America as a society, along with a lot of the world, will let people (including children) starve to death, die horrible deaths of treatable diseases, and live in the streets all in the name of Capitalism and the Free Market. And 95% of the people who know it is happening and let it happen will say and believe they are "good Christians."
That is some of the hypocrisy and evil I see. Any free-thinking person would be appalled, but Robots™ can turn a blind eye, say "isn't that a shame", and go on about their Robot™ lives.
I don't want the Robots™ to just realize the bell is tolling for them, I want to smack them in the fucking head with the bell.
edit: grammar
Quote from: LMNO on July 31, 2008, 01:20:05 PM
You ask, what's the problem? The problem is the banality of evil. A large amount of the horrible shit we do to each other is supported by exactly these kind of people. If you ever want to know why Bush's popularity spiked the day after he was given the 2004 election, when all that happened is that he was anointed president, it was because of these people, the ones who "support the president" regardless of who he might be.
The whole point being; there's a lot of people out there who, when hearing about BIP and The Machine™ say, "So what?" They already know. So your O:M, or your memebomb, or your pamphlet simply won't have any effect whatsoever.
So maybe we should think in a direction that can get through to these people. At least one of them, maybe two.
I don't think I can change society, but I do think I can help some poor schmuck realize that they are Free®.
Big motherfucking man-hair :mittens: of win!