The simple fact of the matter is that life is a game. There is no rule or reason to it, no way of simply explaining away its existence. And like all games, it exists to be played. Often, without consideration as to the morality or consequence of ones actions.
One of the defining traits of a trickster is hunger. Another is the multiplicity of identity. A trickster hides behind a thousand masks. But which of those masks, if any, is the true identity? It seems, in the final analysis, the answer is none. The trickster defines their own existence for themselves, their hunger creating (relatively) temporary aims, but no overarching goals. Unless the goal is the maximization of disorder itself, the pleasurable clash of chaos, from which a wily and intelligent individual came come out ahead of everyone else.
The essence of a trickster is also that of puppet master, of someone who enjoys the creation of events behind the scenes to drive the ongoing drama, to manipulate persons and events to the goal they desire. It is almost certainly a necessary result of a certain sort of intellect, who quickly becomes bored with abstraction or the grind of a normal existence, that takes delight in twist and turns and ambivalent signals. But there is, of course, a sinister aspect to this archetype as well, which should not be overlooked. While the jokes may or may not be harmless, depending on the disposition of the trickster, they do rely on deceit, thrive on manipulation, hiding their machinations until the moment of unveiling, when they reveal the trick as what it really was – the conceit of man become god, directing their own miniature drama.
There is also something cruel about the nature of such tricks, as they reveal nothing of the tricksters own goals, an insight into their thinking. No, the trickster holds up a mirror to the world. They do not create the desires, only manipulating and redirecting them to other ends. Therefore, a fear and hatred of the trickster is a fear and hatred of oneself, of the base drives of your nature which drove you to follow their hidden directives. It reveals the weakness of the other, and in some cases, that alone is a cutting and deadly blow.
The trickster too, reveals something of his relationship with the other here. He is at the same time, reliant on the dupe, and yet somewhat callous and despising of him. It is often the case that those drawn into such games as the trickster desires will be used for personal entertainment and thrown aside without a thought once the game is over – but then, the trickster is still reliant on a steady stream of such people. If all the world were tricksters, then he would not be able to play his game. Equally, without any trickster-like attributes, the world would be without imagination, and no-one would take the baits offered.
Trouble is often a means to an end. But even when it lacks, that is no reason not to cause trouble. While there may not be a reward in terms of material or personal gain, there is often the element of learning – of discovering or confirming that in this sort of situation, a person does that, or the similarities between possibly otherwise disparate concepts. For a trickster, the world is a lab as much as a stage, and everyone within is both an audience and an unwilling test subject. Caution leads to boredom, which leads to stagnation, whereas experiment and change are the spice of life.
Because, or possibly despite this lack of inherent meaning in the world, it becomes a mystery, waiting to be explored. Without a metaphysical base of nonsense to keep one's nose in the books, you come to be interested by those around you. Who they are, why they became the way they are. Their defense mechanisms and habits, what they do and the hidden meanings behind it. Like a book of codes, it awaits a clever enough decipherer to become understandable. Unfortunately, cracking such secrets is not without risk, and the occasional failure, while painful, can teach us much.
The intrigue, the irony, the spectacle, this is what makes life worth living. With all this at one's doorstep, why be so serious?
:mittens: Cain is back with a mother fucking vengence!
You address the archetypal trickster here, sniffing down a similar coyote trail to Lewis Hyde's musings.
But to spin Campbell into it - do you feel that the Trickster is just a mask for the Hero? Or is that irrelevant because everybody, even the trickster's dupes, are the Hero in some sense?
:cry:
:mittens:
In addition to Cram's questions, I was wondering what you thought about the long-term effects of this "multiplicity of identities."
Do you think a strong sense of purpose, or failing that—a strong sense of self—is necessary for someone to thrive as a trickster? If you look at Joey Skaggs, the Yes Men, and the Billboard Liberation Front, there is a definite subtext of seriousness surrounding their pranks. It seems to me that for most stunts to be successful, the trickster needs to spend some time on cold, sober calculations and practicalities. Earning one's slack...
You suggested some answers to these questions in the OP, but I was hoping you would expand on them a bit.
:mittens:
This will leak into my novel, when I get back to writing it. Kudos.
:mittens:
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
Excellent Cain. I enjoy playing the trickster sometimes. Not all the time, but if the right person is on my radar and I'm in the mood........
Quote from: Honey on July 17, 2008, 01:55:52 PM
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
Yes. It is a way that so-called Native Americans trick tourists out of their cash by buying stupid, emasculated trinkets.
Excellent. I love nothing more than a good trickster, IRL and in any novel I read. I have tried my hand too at writing a character such as this. I cannot say it was very easy, but it made me look at the world through trickster eyes. Finding ways to weave artifice and guile into nearly every endeavor is not an easy task but it sure leads to surprising ends.
Dealing with people who adopt this persona is one of the many reasons that I have developed a healthy degree of skepticism and incorporated aspects of this trickster into my self as well. I am such a Fool so I most readily wander into all kinds of webs, it has made for some very eye opening Mind Fucks though. :eek:
Quote from: Honey on July 17, 2008, 01:55:52 PM
:mittens:
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
Profoundly misunderstood by pretty much every white guy who's ever written about him.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on July 16, 2008, 09:16:44 PM
You address the archetypal trickster here, sniffing down a similar coyote trail to Lewis Hyde's musings.
But to spin Campbell into it - do you feel that the Trickster is just a mask for the Hero? Or is that irrelevant because everybody, even the trickster's dupes, are the Hero in some sense?
I don't think the Trickster is a Hero at all. Well, they can be in some cases (Odysseus being a prime example), but Tricksters make their own luck, and rely on their own skills. The Hero usually requires levels of divine intervention to keep them on the correct path. In fact, the notion of there being a correct path is another reason that makes me suspect that a Trickster and Hero are different archtypes. The hero is driven by a purpose, whereas the Trickster is defined by no overarching theme or goal.
Your second comment is probably closer to the reality. As I mentioned above, Heroes are often reliant on divine intervention to get them involved in their journey, and to pass certain trials. That sort of manipulation, covertly aiding events from behind the scenes, moving pieces on the chessboard of a far larger game...that is quintessentially Tricksterish, in my mind.
Of course, I may have misunderstood the question, since I only briefly read Campbell, a while ago.
Quote from: Netaungrot on July 17, 2008, 05:47:32 AM
:mittens:
In addition to Cram's questions, I was wondering what you thought about the long-term effects of this "multiplicity of identities."
Do you think a strong sense of purpose, or failing that—a strong sense of self—is necessary for someone to thrive as a trickster? If you look at Joey Skaggs, the Yes Men, and the Billboard Liberation Front, there is a definite subtext of seriousness surrounding their pranks. It seems to me that for most stunts to be successful, the trickster needs to spend some time on cold, sober calculations and practicalities. Earning one's slack...
You suggested some answers to these questions in the OP, but I was hoping you would expand on them a bit.
I think there is a need for some sort of drive, certainly. But I think that drive exists far lower than the various identities that a trickster takes on in their various pursuits.
I'll illustrate with an example. This rant actually came to me two weeks ago today. I had a job interview and jobseekers allowance (unenployment benefits) interview on the same day, several hours apart, in a town about 40 miles from where I live. Now, its a nice town, where I was, so after attending my jobseekers interview in the morning (where I projected a proffesional, eager to work and helpful air, in the hope some sympathy for my position might increase my payments), I had another 6 hours before my interview was due to start.
So I went to the park for a while. And, naturally, I got bored fairly fast. So I started mindfucking the public. I roped several people into helping me find my lost dog. I convinced an assistant manager at a store that he was heir to a 19th century collection of dog rugs, of absolutely no value whatsoever, that had been bequeathed to him upon the death of an eccentric and distant relative (I was wearing a suit and carrying plenty of documentation, it was easy). I managed to recruit several people to hand out flyers saying "want cheaper fuel? www.meatspin.com" that I had knocking about in my briefcase.
They were all roles, but I couldn't shake the impression they were as real as any other personality I projected at any given moment. My meek, vaugely helpful and inoffensive personality at the job centre certainly wasn't my usual personality, but it incorporated elements from it, while supressing others. Equally, my default personality - the one I have on here and offline, supresses other parts of my personality that may come to the fore in various situations - how I can be intensely logical, focused and ruthless, for example. I certainly prefer certain masks, such as the one I currently use, but its all a matter of holding back certain drives and traits - enforcing order on the chaos that is the true human spectrum of expression.
I think a drive is part of that chaos, the churning seas of the subconscious. What that drive may be, I don't know. I suspect that various aspects of the personality interpret it in different ways, which is why the Trickster has problems forming long term and meaningful goals. Most people rely on continual supression of aspects of their personality, they have a single, or a couple of masks at best. However, someone who practices so many roles, who thinks in so many different ways, is exposed to so many more interpretations of the drive itself. Understanding, and chaos, result.
I hope that's the sort of answer you were looking for.
Quote from: Honey on July 17, 2008, 01:55:52 PM
:mittens:
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
I'll be honest, I wasn't really aware of it before now. I tend to be more European orientated in my mythology, Loki and Hermes and the like.
However, I already note a couple of interesting parallels with Hermes. Both were originally fertility gods (fertility = creativity? Necessary mindset for the bending of rules). Both are also associated with music. However, I'm going to have to do more research before I draw anything brilliant out of it.
Quote from: Nigel on July 17, 2008, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Honey on July 17, 2008, 01:55:52 PM
:mittens:
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
Profoundly misunderstood by pretty much every white guy who's ever written about him.
Yup.
QuoteI'll be honest, I wasn't really aware of it before now. I tend to be more European orientated in my mythology, Loki and Hermes and the like.
However, I already note a couple of interesting parallels with Hermes. Both were originally fertility gods (fertility = creativity? Necessary mindset for the bending of rules). Both are also associated with music. However, I'm going to have to do more research before I draw anything brilliant out of it.
I probably should've clarified what I meant instead of just blurting out a question? Briefly. I found the kokopelli archetype (similar to hermes, loki & other trickster types) to be useful when considering the trickster as messenger? As in Plato's allegory of the cave? What happens when someone leaves the cave & then comes back to help the others "escape"?
Quote from: Nigel on July 17, 2008, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Honey on July 17, 2008, 01:55:52 PM
:mittens:
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
Profoundly misunderstood by pretty much every white guy who's ever written about him.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f312/Tonito44/ThatsRacist.gif)
Quote from: LMNO on July 18, 2008, 01:15:39 PM
Quote from: Nigel on July 17, 2008, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Honey on July 17, 2008, 01:55:52 PM
:mittens:
Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype? As trickster I mean? :)
Profoundly misunderstood by pretty much every white guy who's ever written about him.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f312/Tonito44/ThatsRacist.gif)
Yes it is. And off the top of my head, I give it a 76.2% chance of being completely true.
Also, to keep this thread on track...
Quote from: Cain on July 18, 2008, 03:30:32 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on July 17, 2008, 05:47:32 AM
:mittens:
In addition to Cram's questions, I was wondering what you thought about the long-term effects of this "multiplicity of identities."
Do you think a strong sense of purpose, or failing that—a strong sense of self—is necessary for someone to thrive as a trickster? If you look at Joey Skaggs, the Yes Men, and the Billboard Liberation Front, there is a definite subtext of seriousness surrounding their pranks. It seems to me that for most stunts to be successful, the trickster needs to spend some time on cold, sober calculations and practicalities. Earning one's slack...
You suggested some answers to these questions in the OP, but I was hoping you would expand on them a bit.
I think there is a need for some sort of drive, certainly. But I think that drive exists far lower than the various identities that a trickster takes on in their various pursuits.
I'll illustrate with an example. This rant actually came to me two weeks ago today. I had a job interview and jobseekers allowance (unenployment benefits) interview on the same day, several hours apart, in a town about 40 miles from where I live. Now, its a nice town, where I was, so after attending my jobseekers interview in the morning (where I projected a proffesional, eager to work and helpful air, in the hope some sympathy for my position might increase my payments), I had another 6 hours before my interview was due to start.
So I went to the park for a while. And, naturally, I got bored fairly fast. So I started mindfucking the public. I roped several people into helping me find my lost dog. I convinced an assistant manager at a store that he was heir to a 19th century collection of dog rugs, of absolutely no value whatsoever, that had been bequeathed to him upon the death of an eccentric and distant relative (I was wearing a suit and carrying plenty of documentation, it was easy). I managed to recruit several people to hand out flyers saying "want cheaper fuel? www.meatspin.com" that I had knocking about in my briefcase.
They were all roles, but I couldn't shake the impression they were as real as any other personality I projected at any given moment. My meek, vaugely helpful and inoffensive personality at the job centre certainly wasn't my usual personality, but it incorporated elements from it, while supressing others. Equally, my default personality - the one I have on here and offline, supresses other parts of my personality that may come to the fore in various situations - how I can be intensely logical, focused and ruthless, for example. I certainly prefer certain masks, such as the one I currently use, but its all a matter of holding back certain drives and traits - enforcing order on the chaos that is the true human spectrum of expression.
I think a drive is part of that chaos, the churning seas of the subconscious. What that drive may be, I don't know. I suspect that various aspects of the personality interpret it in different ways, which is why the Trickster has problems forming long term and meaningful goals. Most people rely on continual supression of aspects of their personality, they have a single, or a couple of masks at best. However, someone who practices so many roles, who thinks in so many different ways, is exposed to so many more interpretations of the drive itself. Understanding, and chaos, result.
I hope that's the sort of answer you were looking for.
You must really piss off buddhists. They work all this time to strip the masks from reality, and here you are, an all your borderline sociopathic glory, switching masks as quickly as Anonymous at a Guy Faulks festival.
But you know what? I'm with you. If we want to move within the world, we need to be adept at which masks to choose from. Otherwise, we might as well go sit in a monastary for the rest of our lives.
Quote from: LMNO on July 18, 2008, 01:21:44 PM
Also, to keep this thread on track...
Quote from: Cain on July 18, 2008, 03:30:32 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on July 17, 2008, 05:47:32 AM
:mittens:
In addition to Cram's questions, I was wondering what you thought about the long-term effects of this "multiplicity of identities."
Do you think a strong sense of purpose, or failing that—a strong sense of self—is necessary for someone to thrive as a trickster? If you look at Joey Skaggs, the Yes Men, and the Billboard Liberation Front, there is a definite subtext of seriousness surrounding their pranks. It seems to me that for most stunts to be successful, the trickster needs to spend some time on cold, sober calculations and practicalities. Earning one's slack...
You suggested some answers to these questions in the OP, but I was hoping you would expand on them a bit.
I think there is a need for some sort of drive, certainly. But I think that drive exists far lower than the various identities that a trickster takes on in their various pursuits.
I'll illustrate with an example. This rant actually came to me two weeks ago today. I had a job interview and jobseekers allowance (unenployment benefits) interview on the same day, several hours apart, in a town about 40 miles from where I live. Now, its a nice town, where I was, so after attending my jobseekers interview in the morning (where I projected a proffesional, eager to work and helpful air, in the hope some sympathy for my position might increase my payments), I had another 6 hours before my interview was due to start.
So I went to the park for a while. And, naturally, I got bored fairly fast. So I started mindfucking the public. I roped several people into helping me find my lost dog. I convinced an assistant manager at a store that he was heir to a 19th century collection of dog rugs, of absolutely no value whatsoever, that had been bequeathed to him upon the death of an eccentric and distant relative (I was wearing a suit and carrying plenty of documentation, it was easy). I managed to recruit several people to hand out flyers saying "want cheaper fuel? www.meatspin.com" that I had knocking about in my briefcase.
They were all roles, but I couldn't shake the impression they were as real as any other personality I projected at any given moment. My meek, vaugely helpful and inoffensive personality at the job centre certainly wasn't my usual personality, but it incorporated elements from it, while supressing others. Equally, my default personality - the one I have on here and offline, supresses other parts of my personality that may come to the fore in various situations - how I can be intensely logical, focused and ruthless, for example. I certainly prefer certain masks, such as the one I currently use, but its all a matter of holding back certain drives and traits - enforcing order on the chaos that is the true human spectrum of expression.
I think a drive is part of that chaos, the churning seas of the subconscious. What that drive may be, I don't know. I suspect that various aspects of the personality interpret it in different ways, which is why the Trickster has problems forming long term and meaningful goals. Most people rely on continual supression of aspects of their personality, they have a single, or a couple of masks at best. However, someone who practices so many roles, who thinks in so many different ways, is exposed to so many more interpretations of the drive itself. Understanding, and chaos, result.
I hope that's the sort of answer you were looking for.
You must really piss off buddhists. They work all this time to strip the masks from reality, and here you are, an all your borderline sociopathic glory, switching masks as quickly as Anonymous at a Guy Faulks festival.
But you know what? I'm with you. If we want to move within the world, we need to be adept at which masks to choose from. Otherwise, we might as well go sit in a monastary for the rest of our lives.
This is Full Of Win