War is a seriously fucked up thing. I'm not talking about the killing and destruction and all that though. I'm talking about the part where leaders actually convince thousands, sometimes millions of people to go off and die. And yes, it's one thing to be attacked, but there is something deeply broken in the human mind that allows it to actually go out and join the army, or even to be conscripted, for no reason other than because someone put up a propaganda poster.
Quote from: Requiem on July 18, 2008, 09:42:41 PM
War is a seriously fucked up thing. I'm not talking about the killing and destruction and all that though. I'm talking about the part where leaders actually convince thousands, sometimes millions of people to go off and die. And yes, it's one thing to be attacked, but there is something deeply broken in the human mind that allows it to actually go out and join the army, or even to be conscripted, for no reason other than because someone put up a propaganda poster.
Well, I'm sure you can ask whatever questions you may have about it here.
We have a number of ex-military personnel who will be happy to help.
My thoughts: not everyone joins just because of propaganda posters, there can be any number of reasons for someone to join the army, much like there can be any number of reasons why someone may make any other choice.
In the late 80's most joined for the college money and to travel. Some liked it so well they stayed in.
My issue with the service is sending in boys who haven't even had a chance to live before they get killed.
That and I don't think this is our war. We should bring our troops home.
I think that there may be many reasons that someone would join the military. Perhaps for college or money, maybe to see the world and maybe to protect the country that they live in. Unlike mosbunal other hippies, I have no qualms with realizing that sometimes it may be necessary to kill monkeys that are trying to kill us.
However, it seems silly to me, to crow about our "poor troops" in harms way, or to cry that GWB "killed my son". When people join the military, they are agreeing to shoot people and get shot at by people, in exchange for whatever reason they may have (money, travel, school, patriotism). It's not like the US has a sterling record of only entering wars that they cannot avoid, or always doing their best to make the war quick and painless as possible. Hell, since WW II, they don't even seem to care about actual justification and often seem to have been playing both sides of the field. I have no issue with anyone that joins, I have no issue with the people that become contentious objectors based on the conflict they've been asked to partake in. However, if they voluntarily go into a theater and shoot at people, they (and their families) must be willing to deal with the ultimate 'worst case scenario'.
Personal responsibility and all that.
I joined to avoid going to State School for a year. I was a real bad boy. See, I was a runaway from an abusive step-father and spent a year in a parental home before the judge decided I was a threat and gave me the option. Of course this was during the 'Nam era.
I think you jumped the gun in your OP. Many young men and women actually believe in patriotism and serving their country. I do not think this deserves ridicule.
Many of us here think we are serving our country by our actions.
Many people in the service see it as the only way out of hell.
Meh. ignore me.
And here my suckiness at communication comes through, because I don't think I got the point across, which is an attack on the part of the human mind that makes war possible.
Eternal peace would be pretty boring.
The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.
Do you want to be a sheep?
Quote from: Requiem on July 18, 2008, 09:42:41 PM
And yes, it's one thing to be attacked, but there is something deeply broken in the human mind that allows it to actually go out and join the army,
I guess I am (or was) broken, then.
:lol:
But you know what else is broken? Broad-brush characterizations.
Quote from: Requiem on July 19, 2008, 02:31:54 AM
And here my suckiness at communication comes through, because I don't think I got the point across, which is an attack on the part of the human mind that makes war possible.
Ah Oh!
Well I think the answer may be "Because we're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings." (Dr. Steel)
I mean if evolution is true in some sense, it seems obvious that territorial instincts aka Leary's "Second Circuit", must have at least some responsibility for the human capability for War. We've witnessed chimps, our closest DNA relatives, hunt and kill members of other chimp packs... particularly if they get too close to their territory. I think the process has become even more complex among humans, with all sorts of justification for war based on a 'territory' of ideas, beliefs or dogmas.
Maybe
EDIT:
Joyce talks about where he thought war came from in Finnegan's Wake. (discussion in Prometheus Rising pg 88-89) Of course, he was insane, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3008136/Prometheus-Rising-by-Robert-Anton-Wilson (http://www.scribd.com/doc/3008136/Prometheus-Rising-by-Robert-Anton-Wilson)
There is a very good book called War in Human Civilization by Dr Azar Gat, which is very worth reading.
Its about 700 pages long, but it researches the history of war from a scientific, biological, anthropological and political philosophy standpoint.
Quote from: Payne on July 19, 2008, 08:59:35 AM
Eternal peace would be pretty boring.
The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.
Do you want to be a sheep?
No, hatred and violence aren't the problem I see, its more... sheep hate. Hating the same people everyone else hates. And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.
Edit for spelling
Here is a pdf of the book I mentioned, actually. 9.1 MB, downloadable from http://mihd.net/nzky9op
Quote from: Requiem on July 19, 2008, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Payne on July 19, 2008, 08:59:35 AM
Eternal peace would be pretty boring.
The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.
Do you want to be a sheep?
No, hatred and vilence aren't the problem I see, its more... sheep hate. Hating the same people everyone else hates. And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.
Sheep don't hate
enough.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2008, 09:11:10 PM
Quote from: Requiem on July 19, 2008, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Payne on July 19, 2008, 08:59:35 AM
Eternal peace would be pretty boring.
The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.
Do you want to be a sheep?
No, hatred and vilence aren't the problem I see, its more... sheep hate. Hating the same people everyone else hates. And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.
Sheep don't hate enough.
Exactly! They always let someone
tell them where to direct their hate, but they almost never take any initiative, the lazy bastards.
So... apparently the solution to partial world peace is for people to hate *more*?
Quote from: Requiem on July 19, 2008, 09:00:22 PM
And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.
IMO unless you have met, face to face, any person that you have decided to hate, and judged them to be worthy of said hate, then you are a participator of this "sheep hate." For it is easy to say that our side is always right, and much harder to see their side.. It's all bullshit opinions in the end. (like my post)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2008, 09:19:08 AM
But you know what else is broken? Broad-brush characterizations.
Well said.
I kinda like what Mark Twain says about war here:
Quote"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out...and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth."
- Mark Twain, What Is Man?
Having quoted that, it also seems to me that war creates chaos. Where there is war, there is mayhem, much confusion et cetera. Playing the mind games. However, & especially in the current climate, it does not seem to me that chaos creates war. Most wars seem to be a carefully plotted & organized attempt to control conditions.
Wars in the past have led to total destruction of peoples, cultures, & technology including that peoples' entire knowledge base. Destruction in these cases is not random. It usually consists of swaths of destruction where certain targeted civilizations become extinct, the "good" along with the "bad." In these wars the "collateral damage" including the peoples killed, raped, etc., are reduced to "spoils of war." The effects of certain wars often mimic natural disasters like hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, etc.
Many times I think it's more difficult & takes more courage to give up an idea than to give up your life. It seems as if it's easier to convince people to potentially give up their lives than it is to convince them to give up entrenched dogma. The theory of communal reinforcement explains this process rather well I think. George Orwell's writings too:
Quote"But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. A bad usage can spread by tradition and imitation even among people who should and do know better."
— George Orwell "Politics and Language" 1946
Much easier to convince people to give up their lives for a cause than it is to convince them to give up their thoughts, notions, ideology & chains of hurtful dogma, et cetera. Plus there's always the possibility of becoming a martyr for your cause? People want to be
applauded for their sacrifices. Giving up the tired old clichés, being willing to take real risks, changing your mind, inspiring people to attempt original thought, in short
being asked to think or to re-think. & then actually having to live with your choices day after day. More difficult & there's no applause for your heroism. It's easier to glorify war. (There was an old cigarette commercial – people with "black eyes" & such – the slogan was "I'd rather fight than switch" (brands))
War blanks out the slate in order to re-write. Being asked to think involves giving up your broken illusions & is more like erasing some of the things written on the slate. Keeping some of the illusions, erasing others & writing or re-writing some new ones. & going back to the old drawing board, day after day. Not as much glory in that. It's a solitary endeavor with no applause.
On a more personal note, I have a 17 year old son & get phone calls & mailings from the Marines on a pretty regular basis encouraging him to join. 2 of my cousins went to medical school through the military (couldn't afford to go otherwise.) 1 is stationed in Hawaii (still in the military) the other went to medical school in NY, remained in the military for the conscripted # of years, left the service & now practices in Boston.
Quote from: Requiem on July 19, 2008, 11:00:09 PM
So... apparently the solution to partial world peace is for people to hate *more*?
Yes, and in a more pure way.
Pure hate doesn't discriminate.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on July 19, 2008, 01:00:33 AM
Many people in the service see it as the only way out of hell.
I joined because at the time, it seemed like the best option for me.
Now they are paying me to stay fit and learn an electronics trade. (to keep the troops cool, and so the tank, arty and 5.56 rounds hit their target)
Plus, I also believed that a strong government requires people who are ready to kill a motherfucker for them at a moments notice...(not that this is the only thing a strong government requires... a good and strong government requires a lot of shit I myself can not give it...)
So I volunteered anyways...
I'm servomg my time.
I almost felt obligated because of the fact I am a fairly spoiled person in comparison to the rest of the fucked world.
It is too bad a lot of people think it is the military who helps keep the rest of the world fuckked..
that thinking kind of opposes my origional line of thought...
meh.
I was talking to a childhood friend who has already been over there, he is back only because his guts were blown out of him. ... He was telling me about some of teh firefights he was in. Hearing it described to me from him was pertty terrifying, he basically described a hopeless/helpless senario, which made me pretty sad..... I can't imagine what it would be like having someone shoot at you... even after hearing it from him, i still joined.
:(
people suck and I'm not helping. maybe someday I will try harder.