Revolution indeed. What kind of revolution? Against whom?
Here we all sit blaming Bush. Blaming the government. Blaming Wall Street. Blaming <insert favorite target>.
Do you want to know who is really to blame?
Look in a freaking mirror. That's right.
The American people are to blame. Apathy, indifference, greed, self indulgence. The "As long as I have everything I want then everything is fine so leave me alone" attitude has caused this. The American people overall are so lazy they want to know everything that is going on and what to do about it in a 30 second sound byte. God forbid they have to read and research the facts to formulate their own opinion, they want to be told what their opinion is by a slick slogan.
On second thought this country does need a revolution. This revolution needs to start with each individual turning off American Idol and actually re-educating themselves. That's right, looking up information. Comparing 'he said/she said' with the facts. You see, the facts are there, they just get buried under tons of hyperbole and false denial or deliberate distortion. Here's a genuine sad fact. We expect to be lied to and we don't care enough to actually do a fact check.
So revolt. Against the inclination to expect someone else to fix things. Against the knee jerk reaction of a slick slogan. Against apathy.
Revolt against the ability to insulate yourself from the outside and convincing yourself that everything will be alright.
But when you have your knee jerk reaction to revolt against the government first remember exactly who it was that allowed the government to become what it is. That is where your revolution needs to start.
Or kill me.
Footnote:
Now I stole the tag line from TGRR in response to Xentor Trying to nail Roger for using it when I posted this at MW. Any fine points to help polish it up for other sites would be appreciated.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on October 09, 2008, 08:34:58 PM
Revolution indeed. What kind of revolution? Against whom?
Here we all sit blaming Bush. Blaming the government. Blaming Wall Street. Blaming <insert favorite target>.
Do you want to know who is really to blame?
Look in a freaking mirror. That's right.
The American people are to blame. Apathy, indifference, greed, self indulgence. The "As long as I have everything I want then everything is fine so leave me alone" attitude has caused this. The American people overall are so lazy they want to know everything that is going on and what to do about it in a 30 second sound byte. God forbid they have to read and research the facts to formulate their own opinion, they want to be told what their opinion is by a slick slogan.
On second thought this country does need a revolution. This revolution needs to start with each individual turning off American Idol and actually re-educating themselves. That's right, looking up information. Comparing 'he said/she said' with the facts. You see, the facts are there, they just get buried under tons of hyperbole and false denial or deliberate distortion. Here's a genuine sad fact. We expect to be lied to and we don't care enough to actually do a fact check.
So revolt. Against the inclination to expect someone else to fix things. Against the knee jerk reaction of a slick slogan. Against apathy.
Revolt against the ability to insulate yourself from the outside and convincing yourself that everything will be alright.
But when you have your knee jerk reaction to revolt against the government first remember exactly who it was that allowed the government to become what it is. That is where your revolution needs to start.
Or kill me.
Footnote:
Now I stole the tag line from TGRR in response to Xentor Trying to nail Roger for using it when I posted this at MW. Any fine points to help polish it up for other sites would be appreciated.
No matter
how you revolt; you're still in prison.
So you mise well do what *I* do: do drugs and put glitter on everything.
You say you want a revolution, well, you know, we all want to change the world..
TL;DR
Could you sum it up in a sentence?
:wink:
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on October 09, 2008, 08:34:58 PM
Revolution indeed. What kind of revolution? Against whom?
Here we all sit blaming Bush. Blaming the government. Blaming Wall Street. Blaming <insert favorite target>.
Do you want to know who is really to blame?
Look in a freaking mirror. That's right.
The American people are to blame. Apathy, indifference, greed, self indulgence. The "As long as I have everything I want then everything is fine so leave me alone" attitude has caused this. The American people overall are so lazy they want to know everything that is going on and what to do about it in a 30 second sound byte. God forbid they have to read and research the facts to formulate their own opinion, they want to be told what their opinion is by a slick slogan.
On second thought this country does need a revolution. This revolution needs to start with each individual turning off American Idol and actually re-educating themselves. That's right, looking up information. Comparing 'he said/she said' with the facts. You see, the facts are there, they just get buried under tons of hyperbole and false denial or deliberate distortion. Here's a genuine sad fact. We expect to be lied to and we don't care enough to actually do a fact check.
So revolt. Against the inclination to expect someone else to fix things. Against the knee jerk reaction of a slick slogan. Against apathy.
Revolt against the ability to insulate yourself from the outside and convincing yourself that everything will be alright.
But when you have your knee jerk reaction to revolt against the government first remember exactly who it was that allowed the government to become what it is. That is where your revolution needs to start.
Or kill me.
Footnote:
Now I stole the tag line from TGRR in response to Xentor Trying to nail Roger for using it when I posted this at MW. Any fine points to help polish it up for other sites would be appreciated.
:mittens:
An outstanding rant Rev.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on October 09, 2008, 08:34:58 PM
Revolution indeed. What kind of revolution? Against whom?
Here we all sit blaming Bush. Blaming the government. Blaming Wall Street. Blaming <insert favorite target>.
Do you want to know who is really to blame?
Look in a freaking mirror. That's right.
The American people are to blame. Apathy, indifference, greed, self indulgence. The "As long as I have everything I want then everything is fine so leave me alone" attitude has caused this. The American people overall are so lazy they want to know everything that is going on and what to do about it in a 30 second sound byte. God forbid they have to read and research the facts to formulate their own opinion, they want to be told what their opinion is by a slick slogan.
On second thought this country does need a revolution. This revolution needs to start with each individual turning off American Idol and actually re-educating themselves. That's right, looking up information. Comparing 'he said/she said' with the facts. You see, the facts are there, they just get buried under tons of hyperbole and false denial or deliberate distortion. Here's a genuine sad fact. We expect to be lied to and we don't care enough to actually do a fact check.
So revolt. Against the inclination to expect someone else to fix things. Against the knee jerk reaction of a slick slogan. Against apathy.
Revolt against the ability to insulate yourself from the outside and convincing yourself that everything will be alright.
But when you have your knee jerk reaction to revolt against the government first remember exactly who it was that allowed the government to become what it is. That is where your revolution needs to start.
Or kill me.
Footnote:
Now I stole the tag line from TGRR in response to Xentor Trying to nail Roger for using it when I posted this at MW. Any fine points to help polish it up for other sites would be appreciated.
Great rant, Rev. You hit the nail on the head and didn't back down or cut any moral slack.
Concerning your footnote request to help you "polish": this is pretty solid as it is. The one thing that I would change/add would be to address the demographic that "Wants to change things, but doesn't know where to begin." That's an argument I hear from a lot of people who try to justify their inaction. To address these folks, you might want to add another paragraph saying that the problems are big and they should just start SOMEWHERE. Or you could provide links at the end of your rant that connect to good, action-oriented groups that want change, so no one reading your rant will have an excuse of "not knowing where to start." A link to here or to the Wiki would be a good one to include.
Quote from: Iptuous on October 24, 2008, 02:29:27 PM
TL;DR
Could you sum it up in a sentence?
:wink:
Revolution: The act of going around in a circle, eventually winding up back where you started.
There will be no "awakening" unless people start to figure out that the "thoughts" they had are just another presentation of their precious ego; becoming conscious of your own unconsciousness is a process that can only unfold within yourself - and by yourself.
I agree with most your of your bit, dear Revered Asshat. Yet I foresee that you will reach only those who already have [had] the means to enlighten themselves - the vast majority of unaware fucktards out there will dispose of this with a smirk, not knowing where to begin their quest. My criticism might not find an ear here though, since I have no[t] [yet] eloquent means of expressing how to achieve this precious state of being that will allow the individual to blow away the prison walls and create a new even more personal and comfortable prison state of being.
tl;dr - FFS wake up.
shut it, Iptuous.
Planeswalker is enlightened and we are not. Listen to his wisdom.
Quote from: Iptuous on October 25, 2008, 12:53:32 AM
Quote from: planeswalker on October 25, 2008, 12:18:45 AM
tl;dr - FFS wake up.
I clearly winked... :|
That tl;dr attitude will sooner or later prevent you from unfolding your true potential Iptuous. But do not listen to me, and for your own sake - stop listening to yourself.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2008, 01:44:50 AM
shut it, Iptuous.
Planeswalker is enlightened and we are not. Listen to his wisdom.
Nobody here has been eating pure wisdom with a spoon, especially not me. But there is a difference between those who actively work on reaching an enlightened state of mind in themselves and others, and those who just jerk around a bit because it is hip and fun: one group actually has a chance of getting somewhere while the other is just another form of puppet. One that is holding its own strings, which can be seen as a feat - or delusion.
There are planes to be walked,
I'll be back tonight.
Quote from: planeswalker on October 25, 2008, 09:38:30 AM
Nobody here has been eating pure wisdom with a spoon, especially not me. But there is a difference between those who actively work on reaching an enlightened state of mind in themselves and others, and those who just jerk around a bit because it is hip and fun: one group actually has a chance of getting somewhere while the other is just another form of puppet. One that is holding its own strings, which can be seen as a feat - or delusion.
There are planes to be walked,
I'll be back tonight.
you're right, of course.
but it's never too late to drop your bullshit enlightenment trip and join the rest of us tragic hipsters who are actually having fun (which is, of course, actually getting somewhere).
Enlightenment = FAIL.
1. Isn't there an episode of Bullshit! on that topic somehwre...?
2. You're gonna feel like an asshat when you die and you realize on the way out that there are no other "planes," You're just wormfood.
But what ever blows yr skirt up...
Quote from: navkat on October 25, 2008, 03:42:38 PM
You're gonna feel like an asshat when you die and you realize on the way out that there are no other "planes," You're just wormfood.
:mittens:
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2008, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: planeswalker on October 25, 2008, 09:38:30 AM
Nobody here has been eating pure wisdom with a spoon, especially not me. But there is a difference between those who actively work on reaching an enlightened state of mind in themselves and others, and those who just jerk around a bit because it is hip and fun: one group actually has a chance of getting somewhere while the other is just another form of puppet. One that is holding its own strings, which can be seen as a feat - or delusion.
There are planes to be walked,
I'll be back tonight.
you're right, of course.
but it's never too late to drop your bullshit enlightenment trip and join the rest of us tragic hipsters who are actually having fun (which is, of course, actually getting somewhere).
:mittens:
Quote from: planeswalker on October 25, 2008, 09:38:30 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 25, 2008, 12:53:32 AM
Quote from: planeswalker on October 25, 2008, 12:18:45 AM
tl;dr - FFS wake up.
I clearly winked... :|
That tl;dr attitude will sooner or later prevent you from unfolding your true potential Iptuous. But do not listen to me, and for your own sake - stop listening to yourself.
..... :|.....
ok.
lemme spell it out for you....
the post talked about educating ourselves and taking the time to read, etc, etc......
so i made a snarky comment that the post was too long, and i didn't read it. It was a joke, buddy. lighten up....
oh and ftr, i have already reached my current potential as i have produced one man-child, and have another on the way. only after the SHTF, and i am engaged in glorious regional warfare with ECH will my greater potential be realized.
at this point in time, I'm thinking we can have a long collaborative effort to get rid of all these twats before we have to turn on each other.
:lulz:
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on October 25, 2008, 12:03:52 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on October 24, 2008, 02:29:27 PM
TL;DR
Could you sum it up in a sentence?
:wink:
Revolution: The act of going around in a circle, eventually winding up back where you started.
DING DING DING
Memebomb memebomb!
I think somebody already did that one, maybe not the exact wording.
Eh, I'll post it anyway.
QuoteRevolution: The act of going around in a circle, eventually winding up back where you started.
There was a piece in a book called Rebels and Devils: The Psychology of Liberation called
Rebellion the Biggest "Yes" yet by Osho. He starts with the above premise then argues that what we really need is a rebellion because that doesnt imply coming back to where you started. (I read it a long time ago and then made the mistake of lending it to someone, who lent it to someone... Its gone.)
What it did do was start me thinking. I agree we dont want to just wind up with another bunch of fuckers on top, fucking the rest of us in unfun ways. We already got that, what would be the point of going to all that trouble?
A rebellion would be OK, but for what? Its a little to vague for my tastes. So I thought some more, there are a whole host of words people have used to describe the proccess of individually and/or collectively resisting the powers that be... I decided I liked uprising best. It implies everyone standing up, which kinda describes what I want everyone to do.
Good initial rant too.
I like "uprising", even though I am singularly uninterested in challenging the powers that be unless there is a reasonable chance I can replace them myself.
also, nice avatar. Vivian fucking rules.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2008, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: planeswalker on October 25, 2008, 09:38:30 AM
Nobody here has been eating pure wisdom with a spoon, especially not me. But there is a difference between those who actively work on reaching an enlightened state of mind in themselves and others, and those who just jerk around a bit because it is hip and fun: one group actually has a chance of getting somewhere while the other is just another form of puppet. One that is holding its own strings, which can be seen as a feat - or delusion.
There are planes to be walked,
I'll be back tonight.
you're right, of course.
but it's never too late to drop your bullshit enlightenment trip and join the rest of us tragic hipsters who are actually having fun (which is, of course, actually getting somewhere).
QFT, and because I enjoy poking people who think that achieving enlightenment (whatever the fuck that means) is more important than having fun.
Quote from: hashishi on October 26, 2008, 05:49:59 AM
QuoteRevolution: The act of going around in a circle, eventually winding up back where you started.
There was a piece in a book called Rebels and Devils: The Psychology of Liberation called Rebellion the Biggest "Yes" yet by Osho. He starts with the above premise then argues that what we really need is a rebellion because that doesnt imply coming back to where you started. (I read it a long time ago and then made the mistake of lending it to someone, who lent it to someone... Its gone.)
What it did do was start me thinking. I agree we dont want to just wind up with another bunch of fuckers on top, fucking the rest of us in unfun ways. We already got that, what would be the point of going to all that trouble?
A rebellion would be OK, but for what? Its a little to vague for my tastes. So I thought some more, there are a whole host of words people have used to describe the proccess of individually and/or collectively resisting the powers that be... I decided I liked uprising best. It implies everyone standing up, which kinda describes what I want everyone to do.
Good initial rant too.
Sounds like a riff on Camus. He drew a distinction between revolution and rebellion, favouring the latter. The former, he considered a form of ressentiment (ie; formed in reaction to frustration and jealousy at the ruling powers) whereas the latter was born from deep-seated humanitarian convictions of shared dignity, and is inherently positive, even while tearing down the present.
As for Enlightenment, this was one of the things that Grant Morrisson got very right, so pay attention:
(http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2511/theinvisiblesv12323fk5.jpg)
This twat is not wearing a serious beard and damn, am I laughing.
Don't you think there are similarities between the jailbreak metaphor and becoming aware of the strings your ego keeps yourself on, thus reaching a new level of awareness of your egoic self which will allow to see through the trickery that is being pulled off inside the head?
[/snip] skipping the amusing analogies, someone might spontaneously combust while I try to juggle a dozen angry eels (and the self risk can't be denied either)
~Have a pleasant sunday
oh wait Planeswalker! Don't go, or, if you do, come back another time & play? I liked what you said & maybe peoples misunderstood some stuff?
& this from the last page of 1984:
Quote... The longed-for bullet was entering his brain.
He gazed up at the enormous face. 40 years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark mustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! 2 gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved BigBrother.
also liked the cartoon & reference to Camus? Didn't recognize that? Where please?
& sometimes *searching* for enlightenment TM might just be mistaken for curiosity? yearning? longing? desire? not the end but the beginning of something?
NOT talking about peoples greedy for enlightenment 'cuz that's just like bein' greedy for anythingelse.
& I dunno but I didn't take it like Planeswalker was referring to that kinda enlightenment? Maybe clarify please?
Quote from: planeswalker on October 26, 2008, 02:45:14 PM
This twat is not wearing a serious beard and damn, am I laughing.
Don't you think there are similarities between the jailbreak metaphor and becoming aware of the strings your ego keeps yourself on, thus reaching a new level of awareness of your egoic self which will allow to see through the trickery that is being pulled off inside the head?
[/snip] skipping the amusing analogies, someone might spontaneously combust while I try to juggle a dozen angry eels (and the self risk can't be denied either)
~Have a pleasant sunday
what I took issue with was how you framed it as though becoming more aware of the trickery of your internal mechanisms is somehow at odds with being hip & cool and having fun.
that, and the fact that in my fairly broad experience, anyone I ever met who talked about enlightenment without being prompted has always turned out to be a twat.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 26, 2008, 06:36:44 PM
that, and the fact that in my fairly broad experience, anyone I ever met who talked about enlightenment without being prompted has always turned out to be a twat.
QFT
The fact that the inhabitants of this board tend to scratch on everything to see what is underneath contributes to the delightfulness of this place.
I should point out that the first two posts were made in a state of great physical exhaustion and heavy intoxication (not a good prerequisite for trying to make a valid point) which most likely created a rather distorted frame for the message I wanted to convey. My english is pretty good but it's not native and therefor I'm going to struggle a bit with this every now and then, hopefully creating some fun for everyone involved.
Enlightenment, awakening, consciousness or awareness of the egoic mind - while possibly meaning similar things those terms can also give a very wide variety of impressions depending on how people are identifying with them and the context they are uttered in. I shall keep this in mind for the future. Being aware of the processes within my own mind definitely allows for more fun (which gets even better in a group of like minded people). However, the term "hip" is (for me) directly tied to some form of fashion and I feel very indifferent towards that. But that's just the way my conditioned mind is still identifying with being "hip" and while I am aware of that, I also understand that others most likely have a varying form of thought on that.
My earlier analogy meant to paint the picture of a bunch of twats that run around, jerking their own knees over being so great and independently thinking while they are actually caught up in their own trickery once more. The feeling of superiority is just another attempt of the ego to take form and find validation. Of course they are part of the cool puppets, because they got to the point where they can hold their own strings it's undeniable - but they are still puppets.
This reflection is partially based on experiences during my ongoing attempt to break free from the prison. The ability to redecorate at will, expand the cell, tear down a wall to have a balcony or get some saucy wenches to play with at the blink of a thought is certainly enjoyable. But at the same time it's just another attempt to make myself comfortable in a prison environment - and thus it's inadequate for the awareness behind my thoughts that came to understand the truth. After a recent breakthrough (much deeper and more frequent awareness of my egoic mind) I already feel the "jailer" in me getting scared, trying to assume a new shape and regain control. I'll see how this is going to play out. So far I was able to foil my ego's attempts to take over again...
Hopefully I can be misunderstood better now.
:lulz:
~planeswalker
will always come back here, probably dragging some dead animal with him to leave at the door while going to plunder the liquor cabinet
oh, I get it.
you think it is possible to break out of the prison completely.
good luck with that.
EVERYONE is a puppet. in this analogy, holding your own strings is having achieved a level of self-discipline that allows you to account for much of the internal trickery. Dropping your own strings will not turn the internal trickery off, it will just render you limp and immobile.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 27, 2008, 11:46:36 AM
oh, I get it.
you think it is possible to break out of the prison completely.
good luck with that.
EVERYONE is a puppet. in this analogy, holding your own strings is having achieved a level of self-discipline that allows you to account for much of the internal trickery. Dropping your own strings will not turn the internal trickery off, it will just render you limp and immobile.
Here is the truth. Our prisons are our own making and we control them. There is no escape except the realization that we are indeed in a prison.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on October 27, 2008, 01:28:04 PM
Here is the truth. Our prisons are our own making and we control them. There is no escape except the realization that we are indeed in a prison.
so it's more like a submarine than a prison.
"Black Iron Submarine" just doesn't have the same panache.
Black Iron Bathysphere?
Maybe Black Iron Armored Car? It's something that we could be "trapped" in, but that's still mobile.
Still, not the same ring to it.
20,000 leagues under constant delusion
'cause the view from your porthole just causes confusion
if you don't, on occasion, spin your submarine 'round,
then you won't see the kraken that's pulling you down....
Quote from: Iptuous on October 27, 2008, 03:27:54 PM
20,000 leagues under constant delusion
'cause the view from your porthole just causes confusion
if you don't, on occasion, spin your submarine 'round,
then you won't see the kraken that's pulling you down....
:mittens:
Wow. That was absolutely beautiful.
Iptuous wins the thread.
I'm glad you liked that.
since i work at a govt defense contractor, you kinda, indirectly, sorta paid me to diddle that out....
:p
Quote from: Iptuous on October 27, 2008, 03:39:44 PM
I'm glad you liked that.
since i work at a govt defense contractor, you kinda, indirectly, sorta paid me to diddle that out....
:p
Money well spent, I say.
Semi-Philosophical question: if gov't workers are paid by the people, and if those same gov't workers are allowed to take restroom breaks while on the clock, does that me that the taxpayers technically pay for the production of shit?
Quote from: Iptuous on October 27, 2008, 03:27:54 PM
20,000 leagues under constant delusion
'cause the view from your porthole just causes confusion
if you don't, on occasion, spin your submarine 'round,
then you won't see the kraken that's pulling you down....
This I liked.
I think the flaw lies in capitalization:
I think we, as humans can achieve 'enlightenment', although I doubt that anyone has ever truly achieved Enlightenment.
That is, we begin our life as little eating, crying pooping machines. We get programmed to not cry as often, to poop at certain times, in certain places and to eat whatever is locally considered food.
Then we get programmed to understand our place in the group and our place in society and we also get programmed to believe in the weird bearded guy/golden haired woman/nothing/fat old guy whatever. Etc etc etc
However, we can become 'enlightened'. We can turn a light on and look at the process. Rather than this program/response situation that all humans appear to be involved with, we (any human) given the right tools, can examine this otherwise darkened process. If they really grok the concepts they can start tweaking the programs, modifying the programs, deleting programs and installing new programs.
They'll still run off of programs, but they won't be the 'factory defaults'... they will be enlightened to this process and the changes they can make.
True Enlgihtenment, I think is bullshit. The idea that we can transcend all constraints is foolish IMO. I think that there will always be constraints...
but I don't think that all constraints are necessarily prisons.
Excellent summation of the human condition, Rat. I like the idea of the problem of capitalization; people have started wars and driven themselves crazy over those little bastard capitals.
I did have one question concerning your post, however. Regarding your term, "True Enlightenment": what exactly do you mean by that? I take it that you mean, as you imply in your message, freedom from all mental constraints/ways of programming ourselves, but I was wondering what this entailed. Hypothetically, if someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like? Do you think that the freedom from constraints, for instance, entails freedom from all negative emotions, or freedom from all interior intellection/inner monologue?
Sorry for the pinprick-specificity of all my queries; just trying to get a better grasp of what you're saying.
I ask because, personally, I once believed in the idea of True Enlightenment. Not sure that I do now (conversely, I'm not sure I DON'T, either), but once . . . yeah. Anyway, at the time I envisioned True Enlightenment as a sort of mental/emotional invulnerability, where one's inner well-being was untouchable and the stillness of the mind was imperturbable. Silly notions of childhood, eh?
Foolish childhood dreams aside, it now seems to me that there is no way to transcend/completely eliminate the emotive responses that make us react to and against the situations in our lives. However, a small part of me still thinks that it is possible to train the inner intellection to a point where it is still, and where one doesn't constantly have to have a ceaseless cesspool of thoughts swirling about inside.
I don't know, though; I'm starting to sound pretty foolish to myself. Give me your thoughts on the matter, whether you think we can be free from our own intellection/emotive reflexes.
Oh, and one last note: this part was great. Very poetic:
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 05:55:50 PM
I think the flaw lies in capitalization:
True Enlgihtenment, I think is bullshit. The idea that we can transcend all constraints is foolish IMO. I think that there will always be constraints...
but I don't think that all constraints are necessarily prisons.
Quote from: Manta Obscura on October 27, 2008, 06:17:57 PM
Excellent summation of the human condition, Rat. I like the idea of the problem of capitalization; people have started wars and driven themselves crazy over those little bastard capitals.
I did have one question concerning your post, however. Regarding your term, "True Enlightenment": what exactly do you mean by that? I take it that you mean, as you imply in your message, freedom from all mental constraints/ways of programming ourselves, but I was wondering what this entailed. Hypothetically, if someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like? Do you think that the freedom from constraints, for instance, entails freedom from all negative emotions, or freedom from all interior intellection/inner monologue?
Sorry for the pinprick-specificity of all my queries; just trying to get a better grasp of what you're saying.
I ask because, personally, I once believed in the idea of True Enlightenment. Not sure that I do now (conversely, I'm not sure I DON'T, either), but once . . . yeah. Anyway, at the time I envisioned True Enlightenment as a sort of mental/emotional invulnerability, where one's inner well-being was untouchable and the stillness of the mind was imperturbable. Silly notions of childhood, eh?
Foolish childhood dreams aside, it now seems to me that there is no way to transcend/completely eliminate the emotive responses that make us react to and against the situations in our lives. However, a small part of me still thinks that it is possible to train the inner intellection to a point where it is still, and where one doesn't constantly have to have a ceaseless cesspool of thoughts swirling about inside.
I don't know, though; I'm starting to sound pretty foolish to myself. Give me your thoughts on the matter, whether you think we can be free from our own intellection/emotive reflexes.
Oh, and one last note: this part was great. Very poetic:
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 05:55:50 PM
I think the flaw lies in capitalization:
True Enlgihtenment, I think is bullshit. The idea that we can transcend all constraints is foolish IMO. I think that there will always be constraints...
but I don't think that all constraints are necessarily prisons.
Well, 'True Enlightenment' is the stuff they sell on television and your local Guru cult. ;-)
QuoteAnyway, at the time I envisioned True Enlightenment as a sort of mental/emotional invulnerability, where one's inner well-being was untouchable and the stillness of the mind was imperturbable.
Well, I think that sort of think is possible... but I don't think its enlightenment. To me it seems like a more restrictive set of programming controls. What Light does it shed upon life? Life, in almost every expression we can perceive of it, appears as an active and volatile thing. When life becomes still, untouchable, immutable... we call it stagnant and comment on the stink of its decay.
Yet, some belief systems would tell you that this is the height of Existence in this life.
I don't think enlightenment is found in thinking less, or in controlling thoughts. I think it lies, if anywhere, in understanding your own hardware and software (to use a metaphor) and being able to examine and modify it if necessary.
So for me, enlightenment is figuring out that you are in the Black Iron Prison, until you choose to be in the Yellow Fiberglass Submarine, or Shiny Steel Spaceship... they all keep you from directly experiencing the environment... they all control what you're exposed to... they all make you remain within the confines set up... but a Prison sits in one place forever, even if you redecorate and move the window around a bit, you're still sitting at GitMo or Alcatraz. However, if you're in a submarine or a spaceship or Humvee... you may be 'trapped', but at least you're trapped and looking at new stuff or exploring different things. ;-)
Quoteif someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like?
What would a person look like if they jumped out of my hypothetical spaceship or submarine without any constraints in place?
Probably something like that.
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 06:51:40 PM
So for me, enlightenment is figuring out that you are in the Black Iron Prison, until you choose to be in the Yellow Fiberglass Submarine, or Shiny Steel Spaceship... they all keep you from directly experiencing the environment... they all control what you're exposed to... they all make you remain within the confines set up... but a Prison sits in one place forever, even if you redecorate and move the window around a bit, you're still sitting at GitMo or Alcatraz. However, if you're in a submarine or a spaceship or Humvee... you may be 'trapped', but at least you're trapped and looking at new stuff or exploring different things. ;-)
Quoteif someone WERE able to achieve "True Enlightenment," what do you believe that hypothetical person would be like?
What would a person look like if they jumped out of my hypothetical spaceship or submarine without any constraints in place?
Probably something like that.
The first statement concerning the Yellow Fiberglass Submarine is very alluring to me. However, I have the unfortunate habit of getting wrapped up in metaphors and forgetting to apply them to real life, so I'll leave it for now.
Concerning your idea of "modifying one's hardware": we all know that Discordianism (like many other systems/tools) gives methods for doing so (e.g. humor, mind-fucking, rearranging our own internalized labels, etc.). Hell, EVERY system/tool does so (e.g. prayer and litany in Christianity, meditation in Buddhism, mantras in certain sects of Hinduism, logical hypotheses in atheism, etc.). What I want to know (and what I failed to make clear in my original response to you) is this, however:
How do you think one may determine when is the "correct moment" to alter the software/hardware of one's BIP/worldview/whatever?
When I originally referenced the idea of the cessation of intellection and the "invulnerability of the mind," I was referencing the former in terms of being a tool that one could use to change one's outlook on the world. The latter was my hypothesis about what an individual would be like if they perfected the art of reprogramming themselves, not only by the technique most suited for them, but also by
the recognition of the most apt time in which to do it.
It seems to me that, yes, changing one's environment through memebombs/whatever is important, and that altering one's own interior through self-mind-fucking is also important. However, to say that one should ALWAYS try to alter/change their interior, and that they must NEVER go along with the crowd (note: I am not saying that you have implied this in any way; I am merely referencing one of my own concerns) seems, to me, to be equally erroneous logic. Just as some people are "trapped" in their own self-made BIP, it seems equally likely that there may be some danger of "over-decorating" one's own BIP, as it were. Sort of like how people who are "too nice" can become doormats, or people who are "too honest" might be honest to the point of abrasion. Do you think that there are times when one should just sit back and be an observer/follower, or do you think that every social and individual instance is best utilized by bringing external and internal Mindfucks to the situation?
This is where, I suppose, my idea of the technique of inner quiet comes in, as well as my concept of the "invulnerable" person. If, in my previous question, the former is true, then one might say that there are times that one might believe that the world should be left to "run as it pleases," whereas the latter implies the necessity of dynamic participation from the observer in all situations. Sort of a parallel to the old koans and riddles of whether we may be removed from the turmoil of the storm, or whether the storm is inescapable, and only the eye offers solace.
I tend to suffer from the delusion of the former, that the turmoil can be escaped, if only momentarily, by the relinquishing of active control and "going with the flow," so to speak, whereas the concept of BIP and other Discordian thought-structures picture the whole "escape from turmoil" in terms of the inescapable storm, where one may only find the eye.
Well, those are my random, probably incorrect and malformed, thoughts at the moment. As I said, I definitely see the concept and merit of what you speak of as the inability to fully escape the BIP/YFB, but I would be pleased to hear your thoughts as to whether momentary escape is ever fully possible.
I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).
However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.
I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.
Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.
I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.
Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. :fnord:
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).
However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.
I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.
Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.
I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.
Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. :fnord:
I hope this is kopyleft, Rat, because if not I probably owe you royalties for printing this out and pasting it on my wall. Not that I would ever give them to you, but I would owe you them. :D
Not being tech savvy, I had never really thought of mindset alteration in terms of program hacking. Being an impractical English/Comm guy, I had always considered the ideas of alteration in terms of emotive channeling and inter/intra-personal communication. I really like the metaphors that you use, and hope to hear more of your thoughts during my time here.
Thanks for giving me something new to think over.
Well, not to be an impotent prick, but my curiosity is currently sated, and thus I can't think of anything to say in response to your intelligent post. And since I try to adhere (loosely) to the idea of "If you can't improve the silence, then don't attempt to make noise," I'll shut up for now.
Thanks again for your insight.
Quote from: Manta Obscura on October 27, 2008, 08:29:05 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).
However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.
I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.
Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.
I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.
Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. :fnord:
I hope this is kopyleft, Rat, because if not I probably owe you royalties for printing this out and pasting it on my wall. Not that I would ever give them to you, but I would owe you them. :D
Not being tech savvy, I had never really thought of mindset alteration in terms of program hacking. Being an impractical English/Comm guy, I had always considered the ideas of alteration in terms of emotive channeling and inter/intra-personal communication. I really like the metaphors that you use, and hope to hear more of your thoughts during my time here.
Thanks for giving me something new to think over.
Well, not to be an impotent prick, but my curiosity is currently sated, and thus I can't think of anything to say in response to your intelligent post. And since I try to adhere (loosely) to the idea of "If you can't improve the silence, then don't attempt to make noise," I'll shut up for now.
Thanks again for your insight.
Any random chattering that Ratatosk spouts is Kopyleft and also... nutty. ;-)
Quote from: navkat on October 25, 2008, 03:42:38 PM1. Isn't there an episode of Bullshit! on that topic somehwre...?
if there is, can i has link?
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).
However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.
I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.
Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.
I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.
Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. :fnord:
Wow, you hacked your monogamy? Thats impressive.
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).
However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.
I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.
Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.
I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.
Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. :fnord:
Isn't it just the opposite now, though? You changed, and she stayed the same.
Quote from: Hoopla on November 05, 2008, 06:00:48 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on October 27, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
I am, by choice and trade a 'hacker' which is a label that means I know enough about computer systems to make them do things that they're not designed/supposed to do (my current occupation involves figuring that out... then figuring out how to make sure other people can't do that).
However, I do not hack every application that I come across. I do not hack every website I visit. I do not hack for the sake of hacking.
I hack an application, when I need it to do function X and function X wasn't put into the code.
I hack a website when they have particularly interesting information that I'm currently being denied access to.
I hack systems when the systems don't meet my needs... and when the hack will make the system meet my needs.
Brain hacking, in my opinion is similar. When I run across a program in my head which does something I don't like... I start working on figuring out how it works, why it works and what I can do to change how it works.
I used to be monogamous. I fell in love with a girl that did not like the idea of monogamy. Rather than change, I felt that I had to break off our relationship. Instead, she said that she cared enough to be monogamous with me. Then I read some books, thought a lot about it and decided that it was unfair of me, to make her change and for me to stay the same. She gave 100% I gave 0%. So I started hacking that particular program... not because she expected me to, but because I was dissatisfied with the outcome of it running. Before that, the program didn't need hacked, because I'd never been in a situation where it failed to behave as I wanted it to... or at least, how I thought I wanted it to.
Now, I like the program much better and I don't have that icky feeling in the back of my head that someone else denied their own reality, because I was a dick. :fnord:
Isn't it just the opposite now, though? You changed, and she stayed the same.
I dunno, I'm not her ;-)
Most of her friends claim her views have changed entirely though. In the end, I don't mind if she changed or not. I looked at my program and decided that it was not something I wanted in my head. In her defense, we were together for two years and she never once asked or bugged me about it. I think she was genuinely surprised when I brought the subject up.
When my husband and I decided to open our relationship, something he had wanted all along, a friend of mine was mad at me for letting him "win". I was surprised, and it actually put a real damper on our friendship, because it seemed like she was framing relationships in terms of competition rather than cooperation.
My marriage didn't work out, but I don't think I would go back to monogamy. I was never very good at it in the first place, and I like that there's now no penalty for my wandering eye.
I also like the increased level of honesty I've found in polyamorous relationships... it's certainly not true of everyone, but it does seem like most of the people I meet who are polyamorous have really worked at keeping the level of candidness and communication very high.
Anyway, I think that if you view life as something to be adapted to rather than struggled against, it's easier to stay flexible and change your brain's programming when it becomes appropriate.
Quote from: Nigel on November 06, 2008, 05:12:43 PM
When my husband and I decided to open our relationship, something he had wanted all along, a friend of mine was mad at me for letting him "win". I was surprised, and it actually put a real damper on our friendship, because it seemed like she was framing relationships in terms of competition rather than cooperation.
My marriage didn't work out, but I don't think I would go back to monogamy. I was never very good at it in the first place, and I like that there's now no penalty for my wandering eye.
I also like the increased level of honesty I've found in polyamorous relationships... it's certainly not true of everyone, but it does seem like most of the people I meet who are polyamorous have really worked at keeping the level of candidness and communication very high.
Anyway, I think that if you view life as something to be adapted to rather than struggled against, it's easier to stay flexible and change your brain's programming when it becomes appropriate.
I guess I'm old fashioned. Mrs. Asshat and I both just enjoy our sex and each others company.
Well, back when we had sex. Before her hysteroctomy (sp) and my loss of ability.
Old-fashioned, or it's just what you like. I wouldn't necessarily advocate polyamory, but it seems to be a better choice for me at this time in my life.
Quote from: Nigel on November 07, 2008, 07:26:12 PM
Old-fashioned, or it's just what you like. I wouldn't necessarily advocate polyamory, but it seems to be a better choice for me at this time in my life.
And so each must live for themselves. I love that part.