I do not understand the motivation behind most spiritual inquiry.
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Alternate forms of the question include, "What is our purpose?", "Why are things the way they are?", and "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
I admit that I spend a great deal of time reading about and trying to understand the nature of religion and belief (which are not the same thing, and I would highly recommend The Religious Case Against Belief by James P. Carse to anyone who wants to know what the hell I mean by that), but the nature of that question eludes me. In my mind, the ultimate question is not "Why are we here?", instead it's "What the hell kind of a question is that?"
What do people mean when they ask this question? From my perspective, it has no relevance or bearing on anything; it is inanity at it's highest. Yet many people will spend their lives looking for the "answer" to this meaningless question, and many will spend their lives touting that they have found it. However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.
Seriously, did no one but me get the joke about "The Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything" in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? They built the most advanced supercomputer ever to give them the answer to this question, and the supposed "true" answer was 42. Then they had to build another, bigger supercomputer to give them the actual question, so that the answer would make sense. Get it? It's funny because the people looking for the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything didn't know what the hell they were actually asking for! Just like in real life!
People often talk about "purpose" and "meaning." They talk about needing a purpose, or that life would be meaningless without God or whatever spiritual entity they are concerned with. I don't get it. If there ever was a "fall from grace," it was the loss of our ability to have the nerve to face life with some sense of personal dignity and authority over ourselves. Why do people need to have a purpose assigned to them, and how can one be so asinine as to think that a dream, an epiphany, or simply a moment of mania is a message from a Greater Power™ telling them what to do with their lives? That kind of thinking is for people who took The Alchemist seriously.
If you can't assign a purpose to yourself, or just LIVE and be happy doing whatever the fuck you feel like at any given time, then you are dragging your knuckles. Walk upright and be a human being, damn it all. Have enough self-respect and courage to face life and say "Whatever I do in life, I do under my own will and by my own authority."
Please. You people are so terribly confounding and annoying when you blather on about "purpose" and "meaning" and "Why," and then look down on people like me who, quite frankly, don't see why those things are of such concern to you. Maybe you'd start being more satisfied with yourself if you started asking different questions, rather than beating your head against the imaginary brick wall that is "Why are we here?"
I don't think it's stupid to have an existential dilemma, Cainad. That's HUMAN. Like an itch on your balls.
I don't think it's assinine to wonder what purpose you have, especially when you notice there's not much purpose to anything, ever.
What you're asking of the formerly-brainwashed is perhaps a task you won't understand under the current purview of your situation. Think of it, instead, as a CULTURAL exercise, rather than a spiritual one.
Quote from: Jenne on October 23, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think it's stupid to have an existential dilemma, Cainad. That's HUMAN. Like an itch on your balls.
For some. What itches my balls are people (I don't mean you, of course) who behave as if having existential dilemmas is the only worthwhile pursuit of an intelligent human being.
Quote from: Jenne on October 23, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think it's assinine to wonder what purpose you have, especially when you notice there's not much purpose to anything, ever.
Maybe not, but I said that it's asinine to assume that a dream or moment of inspiration somehow equals attention from a higher power, assigning you a "purpose" in life. If it inspires you to CREATE a purpose for yourself, then more power to you.
Quote from: Jenne on October 23, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
What you're asking of the formerly-brainwashed is perhaps a task you won't understand under the current purview of your situation. Think of it, instead, as a CULTURAL exercise, rather than a spiritual one.
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Maybe I just need to go to bed, but can you clarify the "it" for me in the second sentence there?
fucking RAH!
best post on PD in the last year, at least.
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 03:25:06 AM
Quote from: Jenne on October 23, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think it's stupid to have an existential dilemma, Cainad. That's HUMAN. Like an itch on your balls.
For some. What itches my balls are people (I don't mean you, of course) who behave as if having existential dilemmas is the only worthwhile pursuit of an intelligent human being.
Quote from: Jenne on October 23, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
I don't think it's assinine to wonder what purpose you have, especially when you notice there's not much purpose to anything, ever.
Maybe not, but I said that it's asinine to assume that a dream or moment of inspiration somehow equals attention from a higher power, assigning you a "purpose" in life. If it inspires you to CREATE a purpose for yourself, then more power to you.
Quote from: Jenne on October 23, 2008, 03:13:59 AM
What you're asking of the formerly-brainwashed is perhaps a task you won't understand under the current purview of your situation. Think of it, instead, as a CULTURAL exercise, rather than a spiritual one.
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Maybe I just need to go to bed, but can you clarify the "it" for me in the second sentence there?
Well, as to the first, I understand--now that I no longer ascribe to said notions, you're right--it's annoying and irritating in the extreme. But I understand why they do it even in the face of knowing what we know now through science and more worldly experiences. When religion was drummed up out of the skulls of mankind, we were little more than ook-ook monkeys who didn't have an understanding of anything--so to explain it as "magic" and "unknowable" made sense.
Now, we know there will always be those things that don't make sense, simply because we lack the knowledge or capacity to understand, not because they are inherently
unknowable.
That being said, those who do what you say above, put their very existence into the basket of deity or deities, do so because they choose to. To me, that's a cultural thing. It's an adaptation of lifestyle, if you will, and it makes their world go round. It's no different, in my opinion, than being a vegetarian, choosing cruelty-free products, or any other "way of life" philosophical bent.
It's when they use it to be an ass or keep others from having the same freedoms to do and believe as they wish that it pisses me off. But I have no problems with those who choose to think as such. It doesn't harm me, and it usually means this person will have a moral compass or other that I will in some way identify with or at least understand to a degree because I grew up with something similar.
The "it" is understanding, I guess...understanding the nature of the existential question that is somehow religious for some, and not for others.
Firstly: :mittens:
Secondly:
I'm not sure what people are expecting to find when they ask "why are we here?". Maybe some are hoping that they'll discover a great universal secret. But I think most are just trying to fill a sort of emptiness inside. A lot of days, just going through the motions isn't enough. Some people give and give, volunteering their time and energy with churches and social service programs and animal rescues, and at the end of the day, feel just as disillusioned as before. Some people take and take, buying and consuming, amassing piles of stuff. Some people just sit on their couch and get high, whilst they ponder the meaning of life. I think they're all missing the point.
Which is not to say that I haven't spent my own time pondering the meaning of life...
When I was about 15, I was horribly depressed and began questioning the purpose of being here. I was obsessed with finding the answer to that question; trying to come up with a reason to either off myself or get un-depressed. One January night, I decided to sit out on the back steps of my parents' house, and ponder it. Out of this quasi-meditation came two things. One, I distinctly heard the words "to love, learn and grow" after asking "why are we here?" for the zillionth time. And two, I felt as if someone had wrapped their arms around me and given me a great big hug. Maybe I just answered my own question, and maybe I got so cold that I felt warm, but either way, I felt comforted and satisfied with that answer.
What I took the love, learn and grow thing to mean is that we're here to have relationships with ourselves and the people, animals, and things around us. We're supposed to learn from and through that...and ideally, we'll grow as human beings. Anything else is just details.
But that's just my answer. It might not have any real meaning to someone else, and that's fine. "Why are we here?" is the sort of question that each individual has to figure out for themself, because it's not some mysterious universal secret that we're trying to discover. It's just the sort of question that gets asked when a person finds themself with too much time on their hands, or too little mental stimulation. Like mental solitaire, it keeps the wheels greased and helps the time pass.
Also wanted to say: Your answers in the other thread were spot on. I laughed, rather than taking offense, because what you said is so true. We're here because we're here. Things are the way they are because they're not some other way. You can assign any meaning you like to it, but starting from the position of accepting what is, is better than starting at the end and working backwards.
Very nice rant.
I am here to fish.
The fish are here to be fished.
The water is here to hold the fish.
The earth is here to hold the water.
Life solved.
<devil's advocate>
There's more to spiritual inquiry than pondering the meaning of existence. And while I agree, generally one's time is probably spent doing stuff other than waxing philosophic from a gross lotus position, there are still some spiritual questions that effect our day to day lives -- or at least mine.
Am I anything other than dust and an eclectic collection of baggage stuck to a kernel called "I Am"? A brief ripple on the wild sea of humanity?
How can we say we have Free Will when we live in a physically mechanical universe and our consciousness is made up of a physical nervous system?
Those two questions really itch me, and my attitudes towards them have a profound impact on how I act in day to day life.
And then there's morality, which some feel is a spiritual issue. I don't think we're wasting time when we debate these things - afterall, what does "theft" mean in a digital context? I was in a philosophy class that had a handfull of elderly people. Theyweren't interested in the class at all except in matters that had to do with the soul. Reminds me of that old joke - why do people get really religious at the end of their lives? They're basically cramming for finals. I had to wonder if they made these inquiries of the soul out of fear. Maybe I will have need for these questions as I approach the end of my life.
Note that nowhere here am I ascribing any "answers" to a higher authority than myself.
Well done, Cainad.
I think people are beside themselves trying to figure the "Why are we here?" out because they feel they need a reason, some kind of justification, for all the effort they put into living. Many people need to know that there is something worth fighting for, so to speak, or it begins to be an issue of "what's the point?" and "why even bother?" (and so on). We know "why are we here?" is pointless, but I'm guessing they haven't figured out the bigger and better questions yet.
This is a great rant Cainad.
However, I dunno if I'd say that looking for The Meaning of Life is any more or less valuable than anything else. I mean, if we're an accidental collection of water, bits of minerals and amino acids.. and some electricity, then there's no real value to doing anything. Helping other random accidental collections of biomass? Investigating the big bang that made the accidental collections of biomass? Collectiong bits of paper that tell other accidental collections of biomass how much you're worth?
How are any of those more valid or valuable ways of spending your time?
Maybe, an argument for pure hedonism would fit... there's no meaning to life, so go have fun till its over... but for many people that's ended in feeling a lack of fulfillment.
So I agree, it seems dumb to ask The Big Question, even if you have Deep Thought around. But is it any worse than anything else?
One of the things I got from H2G2 was that sort of feeling... even after Deep Thought is gone, even after the scrabble letters spelled out obvious random math question... The story continued. Not continued down a path of usefulness... but path after path of nonsense and inanity. Poor Arthur's one feeling of peace and fulfillment comes when he's making sandwiches for a living. Yet, he can't stay there... he's whisked off to yet more weirdness and fail.
I've also considered why DA had a 'message from God'... the first part of the series almost destroys the concept of any meaning to these peoples existence. Yet, he still puts a God in place, he still has a Creator, people still go on pilgrimages across the galaxy to see the message (even though someone could just take a picture to show at Milliways ;-) ).
Maybe there is NO meaing to life. But, maybe for at least some humans, its the path, the pilgrimage, the road they travel looking for that meaning, which gives them some meaning to their life. The final message from God may be a disappointment... but if the search for that message gets them through life, then its not meaningless, is it?
Quote
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Most mundane things in life, such as particle accelerators, ball point pens and jelly sandwiches, have meaning and serve a purpose. The concept that 'life, the universe and everything' (LU&E) has meaning & purpose is a natural extension of everyday experience. I posit, however, that this is a mistake in thinking. The purpose contained in worldly things is assigned by the observer. (Observer created universe?) Purpose is not necessarily inherent in the object itself. Thus, the 'answer' to the LU&E question will be different for each individual.
For me, I think I am here to collect experiences. I sometimes think of Uncle Al's essay on the 0=2 Equation in
Magick Without Tears http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_05.html (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_05.html), especially the passage where he references the footnote from
Liber ABA "
Imagine that each atom of each element possesses the memory of all his adventures in combination. By the way, that atom (fortified with that memory) would not be the same atom; yet it is, because it has gained nothing from anywhere except this memory. Therefore, by the lapse of time, and by virtue of memory, a thing could become something more than itself; thus a real development is possible."
This line of thought should be patently obvious, but some people cannot accept it as it has no specific goal and seems more like a means rather than an end. People want concrete and authoritative answers but they'll reject one line of thought after another if it doesn't fit within their preconceived framework.
Quote
However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.
I wouldn't say so much that the question is flawed, but rather that the LU&E question has no
single answer and is therefore meaningless when asked in it's broadest context. It has meaning on an individual level, but not absolute meaning.
Your mileage may vary.
Quote from: Rev. Lymantria Dispar on October 23, 2008, 05:43:50 PM
Quote
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Most mundane things in life, such as particle accelerators, ball point pens and jelly sandwiches, have meaning and serve a purpose. The concept that 'life, the universe and everything' (LU&E) has meaning & purpose is a natural extension of everyday experience. I posit, however, that this is a mistake in thinking. The purpose contained in worldly things is assigned by the observer. (Observer created universe?) Purpose is not necessarily inherent in the object itself. Thus, the 'answer' to the LU&E question will be different for each individual.
For me, I think I am here to collect experiences. I sometimes think of Uncle Al's essay on the 0=2 Equation in Magick Without Tears http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_05.html (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_05.html), especially the passage where he references the footnote from Liber ABA "Imagine that each atom of each element possesses the memory of all his adventures in combination. By the way, that atom (fortified with that memory) would not be the same atom; yet it is, because it has gained nothing from anywhere except this memory. Therefore, by the lapse of time, and by virtue of memory, a thing could become something more than itself; thus a real development is possible."
This line of thought should be patently obvious, but some people cannot accept it as it has no specific goal and seems more like a means rather than an end. People want concrete and authoritative answers but they'll reject one line of thought after another if it doesn't fit within their preconceived framework.
Quote
However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.
I wouldn't say so much that the question is flawed, but rather that the LU&E question has no single answer and is therefore meaningless when asked in it's broadest context. It has meaning on an individual level, but not absolute meaning.
Your mileage may vary.
NICE!
So the 'meaning' of a given life, may depend on the experiential existence of that life.
Also, maybe that meaning changes based on new experiential data.
The meaning of Life for me once was about telling other people about God before their time ran out. Then after more experiences it changed to "No Meaning In Life" and since then it's changed again to "The Meaning of Life is to experience as much as possible while living" which showed up in my 'chaos magic' phase ;-)
Quote from: Cramulus on October 23, 2008, 03:16:31 PM
<devil's advocate>
There's more to spiritual inquiry than pondering the meaning of existence. And while I agree, generally one's time is probably spent doing stuff other than waxing philosophic from a gross lotus position, there are still some spiritual questions that effect our day to day lives -- or at least mine.
Am I anything other than dust and an eclectic collection of baggage stuck to a kernel called "I Am"? A brief ripple on the wild sea of humanity?
How can we say we have Free Will when we live in a physically mechanical universe and our consciousness is made up of a physical nervous system?
Those two questions really itch me, and my attitudes towards them have a profound impact on how I act in day to day life.
And then there's morality, which some feel is a spiritual issue. I don't think we're wasting time when we debate these things - afterall, what does "theft" mean in a digital context? I was in a philosophy class that had a handfull of elderly people. Theyweren't interested in the class at all except in matters that had to do with the soul. Reminds me of that old joke - why do people get really religious at the end of their lives? They're basically cramming for finals. I had to wonder if they made these inquiries of the soul out of fear. Maybe I will have need for these questions as I approach the end of my life.
Note that nowhere here am I ascribing any "answers" to a higher authority than myself.
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 02:24:30 AM
I do not understand the motivation behind most spiritual inquiry.
Granted, it was probably a misplaced use of the word "most," but in any case I'm not trying to dissmiss all spiritual inquiry. If that was the case I never would have gotten into Discordja or the BIP.
When the questions are phrased in such a way that they actually have some context, such as the ones you mentioned, that's one thing. It's quite another when people take an obnoxiously abstract question, pull an answer out of their ass, and then expect other people to ask the same question and get the same answer. That's why I made the reference to HHGTTG: a pointless question gets a pointless answer (or more specifically, a non-question gets a non-answer).
I guess all I really want this rant to accomplish is to persuade people to not fart around with existential mental fappery (it's all fun and games until you turn into a schmuck) and ask meaningful questions that don't require a level 20 Wizard with specialization in Conjuration-Out-Of-The-Ass to answer.
Also, on a completely different note, I really dislike
The Alchemist. It's a sappy feel-good story that seems to advocate a worldview that I consider to be completely bogus and Law-of-Fives-ish. Not there's anything wrong with reading sappy feel-good stories that seem to advocate a worldview that I consider to be completely bogus and Law-of-Fives-ish; just don't expect me to take your belief system very seriously if you think that way.
Quote
So the 'meaning' of a given life, may depend on the experiential existence of that life.
Also, maybe that meaning changes based on new experiential data.
Well said.
I suppose we're talking about Existentialism then: "
Each man and each woman creates the essence (meaning) of his and her life; life is not determined by a supernatural god or an earthly authority, one is free." (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life))
Arthur Schopenhauer answered: "What is the meaning of life?" by determining that one's life reflects one's will. Hmmm...
But to get back to the original post, Cainad was referring to the people who seek such meaning, and how such a search would ultimately prove fruitless as there is no
external 'meaning of LU&F' to seek. Hey, go have a beer & enjoy life - don't worry about meaningless questions.
{reduced to simple propositions}:
i think humans, as tool makers and pattern finders, have an innate tendency to find "meaning" and "purpose."
a tool has a use. it is used to make things or manipulate them somehow. the things made or manipulated, in turn, serve some function. we see a pattern in this, and ask, "if tools serve a purpose, and we use tools, are we to serve some purpose?"
following that perceived pattern backwards, we can only imagine the sequence that precedes us, and create ideas like god, etc.
the question could be rephrased: am i a tool? who uses this tool? what is this tool used for?
not that that line of questioning is any more useful.
as for the real meaning of life:
gratuitous images of penises.
/monthy python
Quote from: Prater Festwo on October 23, 2008, 08:25:55 PM
{reduced to simple propositions}:
i think humans, as tool makers and pattern finders, have an innate tendency to find "meaning" and "purpose."
a tool has a use. it is used to make things or manipulate them somehow. the things made or manipulated, in turn, serve some function. we see a pattern in this, and ask, "if tools serve a purpose, and we use tools, are we to serve some purpose?"
following that perceived pattern backwards, we can only imagine the sequence that precedes us, and create ideas like god, etc.
the question could be rephrased: am i a tool? who uses this tool? what is this tool used for?
not that that line of questioning is any more useful.
as for the real meaning of life:
gratuitous images of penises.
/monthy python
Interesting analogy... so if we create a tool then the tool has a purpose. I guess the next question is "are we a tool?" AND NO I DON"T MEAN IT LIKE THAT!
Maybe, we are a tool though. Recently somewhere on this board we discussed being a 'tool' of DNA/life etc. So maybe in that sense there is a purpose, to continue to spread DNA?
I thought it was "People aren't wearing enough hats."
Quote from: Rabbi LMNO on October 23, 2008, 08:43:20 PM
I thought it was "People aren't wearing enough hats."
:lulz:
Quote from: Prater Festwo on October 23, 2008, 08:25:55 PM
{reduced to simple propositions}:
i think humans, as tool makers and pattern finders, have an innate tendency to find "meaning" and "purpose."
a tool has a use. it is used to make things or manipulate them somehow. the things made or manipulated, in turn, serve some function. we see a pattern in this, and ask, "if tools serve a purpose, and we use tools, are we to serve some purpose?"
following that perceived pattern backwards, we can only imagine the sequence that precedes us, and create ideas like god, etc.
the question could be rephrased: am i a tool? who uses this tool? what is this tool used for?
not that that line of questioning is any more useful.
as for the real meaning of life:
gratuitous images of penises.
/monthy python
This.
Tools are created for a purpose. Tools have meaning in their lives. Tools know what they are supposed to do.
A hammer bangs things, a pencil writes things, a trumpet squawks things.
It was once believed that humans were unique in their use of tools. Now we know that there are many other animals who can do that. Monkeys, apes, birds... they're gaining on us. If you don't want to be obsolete by 2012, you'd better start accelerating, and do it now.
What's that, you say? You'd like to have purpose and meaning? You want to
be a tool?
Really?
Damn.
Fuck this species, I'm betting on the corvids.
QuoteA hammer bangs things, a pencil writes things, a trumpet squawks things.
A tool requires a user - a human uses a hammer to bang things; a human uses a pencil to write things; a human uses a trumpet to squawk things.
If a human is a tool, who/what is the user?
I understand the desire to know the purpose of life, because I have been depressed enough to wonder whether refraining from suicide was a good idea.
That said, there are a lot better answers than "God wants us to be useful".
But does there have to be a purpose to life?
For that matter, why does anything need to have a purpose?
By the way... who is Frank and why does he want to be allowed perfection?
Quote from: Rev. Lymantria Dispar on October 23, 2008, 10:21:07 PM
But does there have to be a purpose to life?
For that matter, why does anything need to have a purpose?
There doesn't, and it doesn't. However, some people need that as motivation to keep on doing what they're doing.
Quote
By the way... who is Frank and why does he want to be allowed perfection?
:boring:
Quote
Quote
But does there have to be a purpose to life?
For that matter, why does anything need to have a purpose?
There doesn't, and it doesn't. However, some people need that as motivation to keep on doing what they're doing.
Ahh, now we're getting somewhere...
There's a whole class of mental and emotional fuckery revolving around the question "Why do I even bother to get up in the morning?"
I do think that is one of the fundamentals of religion, the others being fear of death and how to behave in public.
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 02:24:30 AM
I do not understand the motivation behind most spiritual inquiry.
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Alternate forms of the question include, "What is our purpose?", "Why are things the way they are?", and "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
I admit that I spend a great deal of time reading about and trying to understand the nature of religion and belief (which are not the same thing, and I would highly recommend The Religious Case Against Belief by James P. Carse to anyone who wants to know what the hell I mean by that), but the nature of that question eludes me. In my mind, the ultimate question is not "Why are we here?", instead it's "What the hell kind of a question is that?"
What do people mean when they ask this question? From my perspective, it has no relevance or bearing on anything; it is inanity at it's highest. Yet many people will spend their lives looking for the "answer" to this meaningless question, and many will spend their lives touting that they have found it. However, the answers that people come up with are so many and varied that it becomes readily apparent that the original question is flawed.
Seriously, did no one but me get the joke about "The Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything" in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? They built the most advanced supercomputer ever to give them the answer to this question, and the supposed "true" answer was 42. Then they had to build another, bigger supercomputer to give them the actual question, so that the answer would make sense. Get it? It's funny because the people looking for the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything didn't know what the hell they were actually asking for! Just like in real life!
People often talk about "purpose" and "meaning." They talk about needing a purpose, or that life would be meaningless without God or whatever spiritual entity they are concerned with. I don't get it. If there ever was a "fall from grace," it was the loss of our ability to have the nerve to face life with some sense of personal dignity and authority over ourselves. Why do people need to have a purpose assigned to them, and how can one be so asinine as to think that a dream, an epiphany, or simply a moment of mania is a message from a Greater Power™ telling them what to do with their lives? That kind of thinking is for people who took The Alchemist seriously.
If you can't assign a purpose to yourself, or just LIVE and be happy doing whatever the fuck you feel like at any given time, then you are dragging your knuckles. Walk upright and be a human being, damn it all. Have enough self-respect and courage to face life and say "Whatever I do in life, I do under my own will and by my own authority."
Please. You people are so terribly confounding and annoying when you blather on about "purpose" and "meaning" and "Why," and then look down on people like me who, quite frankly, don't see why those things are of such concern to you. Maybe you'd start being more satisfied with yourself if you started asking different questions, rather than beating your head against the imaginary brick wall that is "Why are we here?"
Good thing we're so much smarter and better than those people, and it's a good thing we all have far better ways of spending our time. Hmmm...perhaps we should force everyone to stop believing in weird stuff like Gods and demons, and believe as we believe, which is obviously superior.
Because we know there is only one way to look at the world. All others are invalid.
Ho ho! I have heard this joke before. But where?
Quote from: Lymantria Dispar on October 23, 2008, 10:21:07 PM
But does there have to be a purpose to life?
For that matter, why does anything need to have a purpose?
TOO TRUE! LET'S ALL BECOME SOPHISTS AND JACK OFF INTO OUR NAVELS!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 12:56:56 AM
Quote from: Lymantria Dispar on October 23, 2008, 10:21:07 PM
But does there have to be a purpose to life?
For that matter, why does anything need to have a purpose?
TOO TRUE! LET'S ALL BECOME SOPHISTS AND JACK OFF INTO OUR NAVELS!
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 02:24:30 AM
<snip>
Good thing we're so much smarter and better than those people, and it's a good thing we all have far better ways of spending our time. Hmmm...perhaps we should force everyone to stop believing in weird stuff like Gods and demons, and believe as we believe, which is obviously superior.
Because we know there is only one way to look at the world. All others are invalid.
Ho ho! I have heard this joke before. But where?
I never advocated actively shutting up or thought policing the people that I'm criticizing. They are certainly free to think and believe whatever the fuck they think makes sense, but then so am I free to not take what they come up with seriously. Unless I'm supposed to shut my trap and not say anything that might be seen as critical of someone else's perspective. After all, ya gotta
respect everyone's path, right? Even Scientologists.
Note that I'm not telling everyone to go nihilist by saying, "Life has no purpose or meaning so STFU." That's just a pretentious way of falling for the same con.
I mean, if people are going to ask the question "Why am I alive?", they're going to either make up their own answer or use someone else's. They could at least be honest and admit that's what they're doing.
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 04:31:06 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 02:24:30 AM
<snip>
Good thing we're so much smarter and better than those people, and it's a good thing we all have far better ways of spending our time. Hmmm...perhaps we should force everyone to stop believing in weird stuff like Gods and demons, and believe as we believe, which is obviously superior.
Because we know there is only one way to look at the world. All others are invalid.
Ho ho! I have heard this joke before. But where?
I never advocated actively shutting up or thought policing the people that I'm criticizing. They are certainly free to think and believe whatever the fuck they think makes sense, but then so am I free to not take what they come up with seriously. Unless I'm supposed to shut my trap and not say anything that might be seen as critical of someone else's perspective. After all, ya gotta respect everyone's path, right? Even Scientologists.
Who else is going to protect you from Thetans? :lol:
Also, I don't respect Scientologists, but I do have an admiration of the church's ability to separate washed-up actors from their cash.
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 04:31:06 AM
Note that I'm not telling everyone to go nihilist by saying, "Life has no purpose or meaning so STFU." That's just a pretentious way of falling for the same con.
Then what were you saying?
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 04:31:06 AM
I mean, if people are going to ask the question "Why am I alive?", they're going to either make up their own answer or use someone else's. They could at least be honest and admit that's what they're doing.
Every Christian I know DOES admit that.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 04:31:06 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 02:24:30 AM
<snip>
Good thing we're so much smarter and better than those people, and it's a good thing we all have far better ways of spending our time. Hmmm...perhaps we should force everyone to stop believing in weird stuff like Gods and demons, and believe as we believe, which is obviously superior.
Because we know there is only one way to look at the world. All others are invalid.
Ho ho! I have heard this joke before. But where?
I never advocated actively shutting up or thought policing the people that I'm criticizing. They are certainly free to think and believe whatever the fuck they think makes sense, but then so am I free to not take what they come up with seriously. Unless I'm supposed to shut my trap and not say anything that might be seen as critical of someone else's perspective. After all, ya gotta respect everyone's path, right? Even Scientologists.
Who else is going to protect you from Thetans? :lol:
Also, I don't respect Scientologists, but I do have an admiration of the church's ability to separate washed-up actors from their cash.
Fair enough. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 04:31:06 AM
Note that I'm not telling everyone to go nihilist by saying, "Life has no purpose or meaning so STFU." That's just a pretentious way of falling for the same con.
Then what were you saying?
That the question "Why are we here?" or any of its variations is pointless because it's too vague. In my humble but totally infallible opinion, of course. That's what I was trying to get at with my Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy analogy.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 04:31:06 AM
I mean, if people are going to ask the question "Why am I alive?", they're going to either make up their own answer or use someone else's. They could at least be honest and admit that's what they're doing.
Every Christian I know DOES admit that.
Mazel tov. Meanwhile, there are people in the world who don't.
Cainad,
Should
not be trying to talk about these things at 12:30am
Quote from: Cainad on October 24, 2008, 05:50:57 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 24, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
Every Christian I know DOES admit that.
Mazel tov. Meanwhile, there are people in the world who don't.
Yeah, but not in the "pro-American states".
all three of them.
Go see Religulous--those who agree with the OP, it's your kind of movie. I.e. All Religion Is Bad and All Religion Does Is Make Good People Bad.
Or some such philosophy. It was a good movie, don't get me wrong. But in typical Bill Maher style, it went a little too overboard in the end.
Maher is a fucking tool.
but I agree with him that all religion is bad.
Quote from: Jenne on October 25, 2008, 01:10:13 AM
Go see Religulous--those who agree with the OP, it's your kind of movie. I.e. All Religion Is Bad and All Religion Does Is Make Good People Bad.
Or some such philosophy. It was a good movie, don't get me wrong. But in typical Bill Maher style, it went a little too overboard in the end.
Not the point of the OP.
Cainad,
Maybe needs to re-write
Edit: I think that 6th paragraph is the throw-off, even though I like it.
Another question.
Could you live a fulfilled life if it had no specific purpose?
Quote from: TheScarletReaper on October 25, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
Another question.
Could you live a fulfilled life if it had no specific purpose?
For a given definition of "fulfilled."
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2008, 01:23:23 AM
Maher is a fucking tool.
but I agree with him that all religion is bad.
Incorrect: http://subgenius.com
Quote from: TheScarletReaper on October 25, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
Another question.
Could you live a fulfilled life if it had no specific purpose?
I already do.
i i think i gotcha, cainad.
vivaldi's four seasons (or some music in general) makes a good example, for me at least. there is an expression of a feeling set to the tune of music. in the same way it seems people are an expression of life set to tune of experience.
there are strings of imagination. there is percussive sensation. and here we are conducting the orchestra.
you can't answer existential questions because the asker and the question are the same. it's like trying to see the back of your eyes with your own eyes. it's like we say we 'see sights'. isn't that simply 'seeing?' it seems we cling so hard to our separateness that even in our language we feel the need to differentiate self and other.
instead of figuring out what the meaning of vivaldi's 'summer' is, just grab a violin and play along. or, if the song doesn't suit your tastes, quit the orchestra...but for the love of life, please, stop yapping during the performance.
(although admittedly, whether you're playing, dying or contemplating a barstool, its still a part of the tune.)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 26, 2008, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: TheScarletReaper on October 25, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
Another question.
Could you live a fulfilled life if it had no specific purpose?
I already do.
Everything in nature has a specific end.
Yours, obviously, is not to die.
Unless it is to a roving band of Republican Marxists who eat brains to help bottle up their lust for fine vodkas, which is against their religion to consume alcohol.
Quote from: TheScarletReaper on October 26, 2008, 07:32:24 AM
Unless it is to a roving band of Republican Marxists who eat brains to help bottle up their lust for fine vodkas, which is against their religion to consume alcohol.
:|
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 26, 2008, 06:16:10 AM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2008, 01:23:23 AM
Maher is a fucking tool.
but I agree with him that all religion is bad.
Incorrect: http://subgenius.com
spiritual amway sales organization != religion
Quote from: Cainad on October 23, 2008, 02:24:30 AM
People often talk about "purpose" and "meaning." They talk about needing a purpose, or that life would be meaningless without God or whatever spiritual entity they are concerned with. I don't get it. If there ever was a "fall from grace," it was the loss of our ability to have the nerve to face life with some sense of personal dignity and authority over ourselves. ...
Walk upright and be a human being, damn it all. Have enough self-respect and courage to face life and say "Whatever I do in life, I do under my own will and by my own authority."
I liked your original posting Cainad, especially the above parts. Thanks & respect. :)
& sometimes, things (& people too) are simply ineffable. Fr'instance Roger is ineffable (to me) on
several different levels of meaning. I like. :)
Like that cliché about good Art. Can't define it but I know what I like.
& I like this response by Burns
Quotevivaldi's four seasons (or some music in general) makes a good example, for me at least. there is an expression of a feeling set to the tune of music. in the same way it seems people are an expression of life set to tune of experience.
there are strings of imagination. there is percussive sensation. and here we are conducting the orchestra.
you can't answer existential questions because the asker and the question are the same. it's like trying to see the back of your eyes with your own eyes. it's like we say we 'see sights'. isn't that simply 'seeing?' it seems we cling so hard to our separateness that even in our language we feel the need to differentiate self and other.
instead of figuring out what the meaning of vivaldi's 'summer' is, just grab a violin and play along. or, if the song doesn't suit your tastes, quit the orchestra...but for the love of life, please, stop yapping during the performance.
I like the references to music, changes in nature, perceptions & ineffable Joy.
Like the caesura in a piece of music? That synchronized absence of sound, when experienced, defines or describes (to me anyhow) just as much as the music does. & it's not that easy to do or to explain how. The musicians have to be 'tight' on the same page, whatever, in order to bring it off. When it's live music, it's magical almost or maybe is.
& there are so many instances in nature where everything ceases for a time & then begins again. Off the top o' my head I think of the changes the seasons bring? or the seed buried in the dark, warm (or cold) earth for a time. I think sometimes you have to
be the seed. Finding yourself alone in a warm dark place. You might not like it at first but then you begin to love it, safe warm, no distractions, peace. Then, something changes, something inside of you but
not you needs to burst out. You sense something above & reach towards it. You really gotta stretch tho & sometimes it hurts. You keep stretching tho, you yearn to be, or to be something else, or to reach out to something that is
not you but is like you. Sensing it's not as safe & cuddly & warm as where you are but ... Time. Then, a flash & you burst out through the surface. You reach out again but it is different. & the light hurts your eyes but you keep reaching toward. Growth, blossom, wonder. Free. Others too.
& the time is necessary, as is both the lightness & the darkness. Or like a butterfly? who spends a time in a cocoon before becoming. All alone in a dark place, confined, waiting, waiting until 1 day (chrysalis?) ... & then ... ahhh wings! & flight! Because it waited (maybe sadly?) in the darkness. Maybe we are like that.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 26, 2008, 11:39:04 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 26, 2008, 06:16:10 AM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 25, 2008, 01:23:23 AM
Maher is a fucking tool.
but I agree with him that all religion is bad.
Incorrect: http://subgenius.com
spiritual amway sales organization != religion
Bosh. It is the BEST of the One True Religions.
Quote from: Honey on October 26, 2008, 01:19:09 PM
Like that cliché about good Art. Can't define it but I know what I like.
That was actually Potter Stewart's quote about pornography.
Six of one, half a dozen of another, I suppose.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 26, 2008, 05:12:47 PM
Quote from: Honey on October 26, 2008, 01:19:09 PM
Like that cliché about good Art. Can't define it but I know what I like.
That was actually Potter Stewart's quote about pornography.
Six of one, half a dozen of another, I suppose.
Ahh touché mon petite choufleur! :)
(& how does he
do that? I mean navigating between the effable & the ineffable? Hhhmmm, wondering if it has something to do with that Rain God thing?)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 26, 2008, 05:12:47 PM
Quote from: Honey on October 26, 2008, 01:19:09 PM
Like that cliché about good Art. Can't define it but I know what I like.
That was actually Potter Stewart's quote about pornography.
Six of one, half a dozen of another, I suppose.
I wish this were his exact quote on pornography.
Quote from: GA on October 23, 2008, 09:53:22 PMQuote from: Ratatosk on October 23, 2008, 08:37:34 PM
Quote from: Prater Festwo on October 23, 2008, 08:25:55 PM
{reduced to simple propositions}:
i think humans, as tool makers and pattern finders, have an innate tendency to find "meaning" and "purpose."
a tool has a use. it is used to make things or manipulate them somehow. the things made or manipulated, in turn, serve some function. we see a pattern in this, and ask, "if tools serve a purpose, and we use tools, are we to serve some purpose?"
following that perceived pattern backwards, we can only imagine the sequence that precedes us, and create ideas like god, etc.
the question could be rephrased: am i a tool? who uses this tool? what is this tool used for?
not that that line of questioning is any more useful.
as for the real meaning of life:
gratuitous images of penises.
/monthy python
Interesting analogy... so if we create a tool then the tool has a purpose. I guess the next question is "are we a tool?" AND NO I DON"T MEAN IT LIKE THAT!
Maybe, we are a tool though. Recently somewhere on this board we discussed being a 'tool' of DNA/life etc. So maybe in that sense there is a purpose, to continue to spread DNA?
This.
Tools are created for a purpose. Tools have meaning in their lives. Tools know what they are supposed to do.
A hammer bangs things, a pencil writes things, a trumpet squawks things.
It was once believed that humans were unique in their use of tools. Now we know that there are many other animals who can do that. Monkeys, apes, birds... they're gaining on us. If you don't want to be obsolete by 2012, you'd better start accelerating, and do it now.
What's that, you say? You'd like to have purpose and meaning? You want to be a tool?
Really?
Damn.
Fuck this species, I'm betting on the corvids.
i don't think either of you understood my position correctly. i should have been more succinct.
Rat: i don't
think my line of argumentation is
correct, just that that line of argumentation in the primitive human mind
led to people proposing things such as god, etc. (of course, there are a lot of other factors- unexplainable phenomena of the time, etc..) As for the DNA/tool thing, Link please? i've had thoughts along those lines for some time. i've tried explaining it to others before, but i just come off sounding like a retarded mystic in the midst of some hallucination, apparently. (my short hand analogy is :
cells are to bodies as organisms are to DNA
i dunno why that sounds mystical, though.)
GA: i actually don't know what you're talking about in that response. tools don't necessarily "know" something. (computers would be arguable, but there are none that are self aware yet.)
and yes, there a a lot fo examples of pattern finding and tool use in throughout the animal kingdom. but none do it quite as
extensively as we do.
i am quite convinced that meaning can exist without the help of an observer or intelligence.
the structure/form of things can cause meaning.
not for everything though. if you have a chesterfield couch floating in the middle of space without any human to be found for parsecs around it's still mostly a meaningless bunch of atoms, not a couch.
but for other things, and in particular complex things like humans, they can create meaning by virtue of their own structure. i mean, that's what we do right? even when we don't want a meaning of life, we always will find *some* meaning in life (that may be the answer to the OP, btw) and we do this from our own structure, our shape, our form, without outside interference.
unless you wanna count "other people" as outside interference and you're gonna argue that it's other people that give the one person meaning. in that case, reconsider the previous paragraph in the light of "all monkeys/life on this earth", and once more see an example of a bunch of atoms doing really complicated stuff, doing it in a particular way that creates meaning. without any observer (if you don't believe in a ceilingcat-god-in-the-sky religion, that is).
I always understood the H2G2 Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything to have as real answer continued existence, Deep Thought gave the only answer that guaranteed its own continued existence.
hence: the meaning of life is to stay alive.
(http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/obamaisfrankburns.jpg)
I used to wonder why but I came to the conclusion that, even if a higher purpose did exist, it was, ultimately meaningless.
What does bake my noodle, however, is how.
Biology and science and shit seems to cover my immediate circumstance but the question remains - how the fuck did this all get here?
I don't beat myself up over it, tho, how seems to be a much less evocative question than why.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 11, 2008, 05:47:31 PM
I used to wonder why but I came to the conclusion that, even if a higher purpose did exist, it was, ultimately meaningless.
What does bake my noodle, however, is how.
Biology and science and shit seems to cover my immediate circumstance but the question remains - how the fuck did this all get here?
I don't beat myself up over it, tho, how seems to be a much less evocative question than why.
TITCM
I think the problem with most "fundamental" questions is that they are just too abstract. A question isn't necessarily meaningful just because it can be asked. Could you recognize "the meaning of life" if you found it, and if you couldn't, how can you look for it? Why spend your time and effort on it when you could direct it towards problems that you actually have reason to think you can solve? I've noticed that I usually find stuff faster if I stop looking anyway...
I quit asking the Question a long time ago and although I'm not 100% sure I'm happier for it, I sure have more time for actually doing stuff.
OTOH, I'm sure a lot of deeply religious people could actually use some more introspection.
Quote from: nurbldoff on November 13, 2008, 01:36:39 AM
I think the problem with most "fundamental" questions is that they are just too abstract. A question isn't necessarily meaningful just because it can be asked. Could you recognize "the meaning of life" if you found it, and if you couldn't, how can you look for it? Why spend your time and effort on it when you could direct it towards problems that you actually have reason to think you can solve? I've noticed that I usually find stuff faster if I stop looking anyway...
I quit asking the Question a long time ago and although I'm not 100% sure I'm happier for it, I sure have more time for actually doing stuff.
OTOH, I'm sure a lot of deeply religious people could actually use some more introspection.
Depends on what flavor of nut you're talking about. Some are very introspective, but restrict that introspection to a confined region. I'm going to pull something out of my ass and call it "fractal introspection": they can keep dwelling on the subject deeper and deeper, but they always manage to come up with something that looks basically the same.
Also, nurbledoff: when I see your avatar out of the corner of my eye, I think it's some kind of red badger. Then I look at it directly and realize it's not. :?
Quote from: nurbldoff on November 13, 2008, 01:36:39 AM
OTOH, I'm sure a lot of deeply religious people could actually use some more introspection.
FUCK YOU! I'm so introspective, I can divine the future
in my own feces!TGRR,
Scatomancer.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 13, 2008, 02:07:34 AM
Quote from: nurbldoff on November 13, 2008, 01:36:39 AM
OTOH, I'm sure a lot of deeply religious people could actually use some more introspection.
FUCK YOU! I'm so introspective, I can divine the future in my own feces!
TGRR,
Scatomancer.
In divination, it's considered cheating when you are, in fact, in control of the future.
Quote from: Cainad on November 13, 2008, 02:09:31 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 13, 2008, 02:07:34 AM
Quote from: nurbldoff on November 13, 2008, 01:36:39 AM
OTOH, I'm sure a lot of deeply religious people could actually use some more introspection.
FUCK YOU! I'm so introspective, I can divine the future in my own feces!
TGRR,
Scatomancer.
In divination, it's considered cheating when you are, in fact, in control of the future.
Sonny, if I was in charge of the future,
you'd know it!TGRR,
George Romero has nothing on me.
"OR KILL ME!!!"
\
(http://proserpine.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/bub.jpg)
Quote from: Cainad on November 13, 2008, 01:55:14 AM
Depends on what flavor of nut you're talking about. Some are very introspective, but restrict that introspection to a confined region. I'm going to pull something out of my ass and call it "fractal introspection": they can keep dwelling on the subject deeper and deeper, but they always manage to come up with something that looks basically the same.
Exactly... it isn't introspection just because you call it that. Superficial introspection is an oxymoron.
Quote from: Cainad on November 13, 2008, 01:55:14 AM
Also, nurbledoff: when I see your avatar out of the corner of my eye, I think it's some kind of red badger. Then I look at it directly and realize it's not. :?
It's actually a fractal of some kind which I forget, that I generated using some program I've also forgotten (I didn't pull it out of my ass though). If you look carefully you can see that it consists of three parts which is the same pattern rotated and scaled...
The badger is probably lodging somewhere in your subconscious and is just trying to project itself onto abstract patterns in your field of view in order to tell you something. I'm sure it's nothing to worry about.
Actually badgers lodging in your subconscious is widely believed to be AN OMEN OF DOOM!!!
... just sayin
Quote from: Mrs. Payne on November 13, 2008, 03:32:58 AM
"OR KILL ME!!!"
\
http://proserpine.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/bub.jpg
HOOPLA
WHY ALL THE SCARY FACES? :cry:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 14, 2008, 01:31:03 PM
Actually badgers lodging in your subconscious is widely believed to be AN OMEN OF DOOM!!!
... just sayin
Interesting. Doesn't this mean that my avatar is actually the Ultimate Doom Detector? Neat!
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 14, 2008, 01:31:03 PM
Actually badgers lodging in your subconscious is widely believed to be AN OMEN OF DOOM!!!
... just sayin
Well, that's me fucked then.
I'm ending it before what the badger said comes true.
So long, guys...
\
(http://xf7.xanga.com/4a7b20201523334992526/l24180317.jpg)
Quote
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Alternate forms of the question include, "What is our purpose?", "Why are things the way they are?", and "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
I was just reading from
Dr. Hyatt's The Black Book, Vol III Pt. II. The essay
On Horns: Man in the World has something interesting to say on this subject.
"Man is born into an indifferent universe which means a universe without supernatural order. This means a world without otherworldly purpose, order. meaning or value."
<scrolling down a bit>
"Man inherently, automatically, involuntarily and continually creates meaning - he is genetically programmed to do so. But man also has the capacity to recognize that such meaning IS his own invention and not reality. Unfortunately, most men can not and will not reconstruct their primal constructions"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7383925/hyatt-chris-galts-ark-vol (http://www.scribd.com/doc/7383925/hyatt-chris-galts-ark-vol)
Quote from: Lymantria Dispar on November 14, 2008, 07:47:41 PM
Quote
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Alternate forms of the question include, "What is our purpose?", "Why are things the way they are?", and "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
I was just reading from Dr. Hyatt's The Black Book, Vol III Pt. II. The essay On Horns: Man in the World has something interesting to say on this subject.
"Man is born into an indifferent universe which means a universe without supernatural order. This means a world without otherworldly purpose, order. meaning or value."
<scrolling down a bit>
"Man inherently, automatically, involuntarily and continually creates meaning - he is genetically programmed to do so. But man also has the capacity to recognize that such meaning IS his own invention and not reality. Unfortunately, most men can not and will not reconstruct their primal constructions"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7383925/hyatt-chris-galts-ark-vol (http://www.scribd.com/doc/7383925/hyatt-chris-galts-ark-vol)
I think a lot of people fall into the fallacy that, because the meaning is self made, its not REALLY REAL FOR REALNESS meaning.
Quote from: Kai on November 14, 2008, 11:41:19 PM
Quote from: Lymantria Dispar on November 14, 2008, 07:47:41 PM
Quote
Countless theologians, philosophers, and lay thinkers have been and continue to be obsessed with what is often considered the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"
Alternate forms of the question include, "What is our purpose?", "Why are things the way they are?", and "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
I was just reading from Dr. Hyatt's The Black Book, Vol III Pt. II. The essay On Horns: Man in the World has something interesting to say on this subject.
"Man is born into an indifferent universe which means a universe without supernatural order. This means a world without otherworldly purpose, order. meaning or value."
<scrolling down a bit>
"Man inherently, automatically, involuntarily and continually creates meaning - he is genetically programmed to do so. But man also has the capacity to recognize that such meaning IS his own invention and not reality. Unfortunately, most men can not and will not reconstruct their primal constructions"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7383925/hyatt-chris-galts-ark-vol (http://www.scribd.com/doc/7383925/hyatt-chris-galts-ark-vol)
I think a lot of people fall into the fallacy that, because the meaning is self made, its not REALLY REAL FOR REALNESS meaning.
THIS.
This times eleventy billion and one.
yeah, i agree with the origional post. Though, I think the quest for such an answer is in order for the guidance to properly put into action something worthwhile and effective. You know, set yourself up on a proper foundation and build from there. I think the whole point behind those questions is so you can clearly see what it is you should be actioning. The thing is, most people on that quest never get to that point and they spend their entire life being aware of their ass. While most people are just fatasses waiting to be told what to do.
I read this as:
Quote from: Eve on November 14, 2008, 01:47:30 PM
HOOPLA
WHY ALL THE SCARY FECES? :cry:
:lulz:
I demand the absence of answers.