Has made me proud.
Not because I think Obama can fix everything.
Not because racism is cured.
Not because everything is suddenly rose colored.
Not because a black man was elected.
I am proud because differences were put aside. Because hope was chosen over desperation. Because people came out in record numbers and made a difference and left their apathy at the door. It seems to me that Americans took a baby step yesterday towards taking our country back.
I doubt that Obama will be a miracle worker. He will face ups and downs like any other. This isn't about Obama. It's about Americans finally standing up. It's about just a few of the scales falling off of our eyes. My sincere hope is we will realize that for changes to work we have to work them.
Yes I am aware of the anti gay legislation that passed and that disgusts me. I am focusing on the bigger picture and have some optimism that the youth movement this election developed will grow and prosper and with it bring change. The change will come slowly and painfully, but it can come.
My country did not elect a black man, they elected a man who is black.
I feel hope for the first time in a long time. Just a small stir of it.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 05, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
My country did not elect a black man, they elected a man who is black.
The part I disagree on.
The black voters voted for a black man. Something like 96% of black people voted for him, with over 60% saying it was racially motivated.
America - Still has broken legs, crawling in search of a way out of the well.
43% of whites voted for him.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 05, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
Has made me proud.
Not because I think Obama can fix everything.
Not because racism is cured.
Not because everything is suddenly rose colored.
Not because a black man was elected.
I am proud because differences were put aside. Because hope was chosen over desperation. Because people came out in record numbers and made a difference and left their apathy at the door. It seems to me that Americans took a baby step yesterday towards taking our country back.
I doubt that Obama will be a miracle worker. He will face ups and downs like any other. This isn't about Obama. It's about Americans finally standing up. It's about just a few of the scales falling off of our eyes. My sincere hope is we will realize that for changes to work we have to work them.
Yes I am aware of the anti gay legislation that passed and that disgusts me. I am focusing on the bigger picture and have some optimism that the youth movement this election developed will grow and prosper and with it bring change. The change will come slowly and painfully, but it can come.
My country did not elect a black man, they elected a man who is black.
I feel hope for the first time in a long time. Just a small stir of it.
I feel the same way, and I'm not even American.
It's the culture of the black community I think.
43% of whites voting for him is a decent example of equality, as much as it's rearing it's head in this election.
It means a maximum of 57% voted for McCain just because he was white, which is would be completely tremendous if they all voted for him simply because he was white, but I simply don't know the numbers. I'll look up more on racially motivated white votes towards a white president.
It just seems to me, experiencing california in all it's robust strong willed black and latino cultures, that these people voted for him not on politics or for change, but simply because he was black.
Racism or favoritism because of skin color isn't just for white people.
In fact, it has been so ground in so cal culture that being white is uncool, and you see decent folk allowing terms cracked at them or getting pushed around because of that.
Maybe it's just a so cal thing.
Dude. I would have voted for him just for being black, and I'm as cracker as they come.
I wouldn't lol, I don't care about skin color at all.
And have you seen a picture of me? I make Casper look tan.
I voted for him because I heard he was going to make America half-black.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 05, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
Not because racism is cured.
I doubt that! But the major thing about this election I like is the young people actually showed they were not apathetic and rose to the occasion.
Quote from: Dr Goofy on November 05, 2008, 07:42:43 PM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 05, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
Not because racism is cured.
I doubt that! But the major thing about this election I like is the young people actually showed they were not apathetic and rose to the occasion.
Amen, Dr. I had to wait for an hour and a half to vote yesterday, and I was actually glad about it. It shows that people are taking an interest in their world.
Yeah, the ONLY thing that could really be considered victory in this election is the implicit empowerment of people who have felt disenfranchised in the past.
Young people, black people, first time voters. They can see now how much say they really DO have, at least between one evil and a lesser evil.
Hopefully they'll remember that.
Now they need to be shown that political will and power isn't exercised purely through a vote. If they were willing to stand in lines for hours to put their mark next to a name, surely they should be willing to sit in a comfy chair and write an angry letter or two?
I don't hold much hope for that, but having been surprised by the turnout and the demographics of that turnout, I have to admit that anything is possible.
http://combobreakerbarack.ytmnd.com/
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 12:15:13 AM
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.
I do think Obama is just a democrat, I do think he's just a politician, but there's something else at work here.
Obama inspires people, particularly people of my generation. He's an incredible orator and has a demeanor that'd suit him in asking "And how does that make you feel?" For the last eight years, since I was 14, we've seen this fucking jackass in the White House who couldn't string a sentence together and frequently highlighted the worst America had to offer. What was there to be proud of in this country?
It's my hope we'll see an increase in national pride from the youth, leading to increased civic engagement because of a greater affinity towards our countrymen.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 02:03:15 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 12:15:13 AM
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 02:03:15 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 12:15:13 AM
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
I think the idea is that those people are voting anyway, and reasonable people need to vote as much as possible to balance out teh stupid.
Most people believe that they're in the majority, and therefore if everyone voted their guy would win, hands down.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 02:03:15 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 12:15:13 AM
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
EQUALITY means ALL. What you said above is one of the many acceptable costs.
Because the definition of the above changes with whoever comes to power. You never realize this unless you are one of the many who have always felt on the fringes, always felt you are of the above, and so you say, "Why vote? My opinion doesn't matter, after all."
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 02:03:15 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 12:15:13 AM
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
I sense you are trying to lead this somewhere but I'll play along.
Yes, everyone.
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
Unfortunately it's a slippery slope
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
If you dont vote when you get the opportunity, the man will take away your right to vote... Even those small elections that no one really participates in.
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
I sense you are trying to lead this somewhere but I'll play along.
Yes, everyone.
No. i don't have some angle here. just a face value query.
My views on this have been in flux, and i was just wondering how people here weigh in on that. i noticed that some of the more politically vocal on this board are very
intolerant vitriolic uncompromising on certain beliefs, and i thought they perhaps would like those think differently to
not participate. I can see both sides of the issue, but i have become more cynical towards universal participation as of late.
i dunno, i'm rambling....
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 02:03:15 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 12:15:13 AM
so, is the consensus here that political participation is a good thing as an end unto itself?
I think it is indeed good to be active in the political process of your country.
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
Haven't they been participating all along? More participants just may = dilution of present sludgy poisonous thought patterns.
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: The Reverend Asshat on November 06, 2008, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 02:36:17 AM
Even willfully ignorant people? or those who wish to vote themselves wealth from the public coffers to the detriment of society? or bigots? Or those who wish to inject religion into politics? etc?
I sense you are trying to lead this somewhere but I'll play along.
Yes, everyone.
No. i don't have some angle here. just a face value query.
My views on this have been in flux, and i was just wondering how people here weigh in on that. i noticed that some of the more politically vocal on this board are very intolerant vitriolic uncompromising on certain beliefs, and i thought they perhaps would like those think differently to not participate. I can see both sides of the issue, but i have become more cynical towards universal participation as of late.
i dunno, i'm rambling....
Having strong opinions =/= intolerance. Being able to back up what you have to say =/= uncompromising, esp when you ask the same of your fellow interlocutor.
What you've come upon in this forum are people who actually for the most part give a shit and are willing to go to the mat for their beliefs--"Joe Sixpack" doesn't give a flying fuck. And he's yes just as dangerous to the system as anyone with "vitriol" behind their philosophies.
Because to me, apathy does FAR WORSE to a democracy, republic, whateverthefuck where the people have a "say," than any strong opinions held by that same set of people.
Quote from: Jenne on November 06, 2008, 05:04:08 PM
Having strong opinions =/= intolerance. Being able to back up what you have to say =/= uncompromising, esp when you ask the same of your fellow interlocutor.
What you've come upon in this forum are people who actually for the most part give a shit and are willing to go to the mat for their beliefs--"Joe Sixpack" doesn't give a flying fuck. And he's yes just as dangerous to the system as anyone with "vitriol" behind their philosophies.
Because to me, apathy does FAR WORSE to a democracy, republic, whateverthefuck where the people have a "say," than any strong opinions held by that same set of people.
all very true. So should the apathetic 'rock the vote'?
IDK what you mean by "rock the vote," Ippy, but become engaged before they tank us again in year after year of FAIL like what GWB steered us straight into (which we will be paying for for DECADES), yes.
It's a tautological fallacy, a nice little lazy opiate, to say that apathy gets you anywhere. It's a convenient red herring completely and falsely removing adult responsibility. And yes, I believe in civic duty--like paying taxes, sitting on jury duty and driving inside the lines of the roads. Not voting is the lazy person's way of reaping benefits they don't want to do jackshit to create themselves.
Quote from: Jenne on November 06, 2008, 05:57:52 PM
IDK what you mean by "rock the vote," Ippy, but become engaged before they tank us again in year after year of FAIL like what GWB steered us straight into (which we will be paying for for DECADES), yes.
It's a tautological fallacy, a nice little lazy opiate, to say that apathy gets you anywhere. It's a convenient red herring completely and falsely removing adult responsibility. And yes, I believe in civic duty--like paying taxes, sitting on jury duty and driving inside the lines of the roads. Not voting is the lazy person's way of reaping benefits they don't want to do jackshit to create themselves.
By 'rock the vote', i mean go out and vote for someone that gives some superficial incentive to do so, or because some media star got you pumped up about what you are not really informed about. This is regardless of whether the candidate would be a good one (which they very well could be...) It seems like encouraging participation for its own sake without being 'qualified' through any respectable amount of knowledge is counter productive, and leads to an inordinate amount of time spent on pandering to armies of the impressionable and emotionally reactive.
As for myself, i am somewhat active politically. I engage in political discourse with friends and neighbors whenever i get a chance, vote in primaries and general elections, have been a delegate at the district and state level, and have considered finding some dog catcher position to insert myself at some point.
I am not advocating political apathy, if that is what you are afraid i'm saying. I'm just saying that it might not be good to request votes from those that
are apathetic.
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 06:31:41 PM
Quote from: Jenne on November 06, 2008, 05:57:52 PM
IDK what you mean by "rock the vote," Ippy, but become engaged before they tank us again in year after year of FAIL like what GWB steered us straight into (which we will be paying for for DECADES), yes.
It's a tautological fallacy, a nice little lazy opiate, to say that apathy gets you anywhere. It's a convenient red herring completely and falsely removing adult responsibility. And yes, I believe in civic duty--like paying taxes, sitting on jury duty and driving inside the lines of the roads. Not voting is the lazy person's way of reaping benefits they don't want to do jackshit to create themselves.
By 'rock the vote', i mean go out and vote for someone that gives some superficial incentive to do so, or because some media star got you pumped up about what you are not really informed about. This is regardless of whether the candidate would be a good one (which they very well could be...) It seems like encouraging participation for its own sake without being 'qualified' through any respectable amount of knowledge is counter productive, and leads to an inordinate amount of time spent on pandering to armies of the impressionable and emotionally reactive.
As for myself, i am somewhat active politically. I engage in political discourse with friends and neighbors whenever i get a chance, vote in primaries and general elections, have been a delegate at the district and state level, and have considered finding some dog catcher position to insert myself at some point.
I am not advocating political apathy, if that is what you are afraid i'm saying. I'm just saying that it might not be good to request votes from those that are apathetic.
Why not? Voting for the sake of voting, or because your teacher, brother, fellow politcian, dog'sbrother'scousin'saunt tells you to is not any different than because some asshole with $$$$ in his backpocket gives a shit and tells you to give a shit.
The act of voting itself is a public demonstration that the system is still in play. It's a monument to public justice, as you will, and you stand together with your fellow citizen and pay hommage to the rights you were very luckily born into.
Maybe my problem is I know too many immigrants who've had to fight for the right to do this--this thing that so many throw away. Whatever reason you have for getting involved, it does not negate nor invalidate the fact you did it. That fact is too grand and great for any petty reason to get in the way. Unless you're committing fraud.
In this day and age, EMBRACING your rights, and allowing everyone the same freedom to do so, no matter how or WHY they choose to do so, seems more to the point.
also good points.
I'm guessing the immigrants denied the right to be directly involved in the political process also take the time to become informed (to whatever extent they can) This is qualitatively different from the kids who are voting based on some emotional plea and a pithy phrase. I've talked to some and they can't give any valid reason why they are voting the way they are voting. (assuming that validity is based on reasoned decisions about the impact of likely policies implemented) And this was from 'both' sides mind you.
as an aside, who was it that had in their sig "it's not enough to have the right to be wrong; you must exercise it!"
If someone walks into the booth and randomly pulls the levers, i don't see how this could possibly be doing any good for the system, and can definitely see where it would be hurting the system.
I think it was a meme somewhere along the lines, and a very sarcastic one at that.
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 06:48:08 PM
also good points.
I'm guessing the immigrants denied the right to be directly involved in the political process also take the time to become informed (to whatever extent they can) This is qualitatively different from the kids who are voting based on some emotional plea and a pithy phrase. I've talked to some and they can't give any valid reason why they are voting the way they are voting. (assuming that validity is based on reasoned decisions about the impact of likely policies implemented) And this was from 'both' sides mind you.
as an aside, who was it that had in their sig "it's not enough to have the right to be wrong; you must exercise it!"
If someone walks into the booth and randomly pulls the levers, i don't see how this could possibly be doing any good for the system, and can definitely see where it would be hurting the system.
It does good the way anything that's a publicly demonstrable usage of your rights does. It's a reinforcement that the system is in play.
Also: there are enough checks and balances built into what becomes a referendum and who is running for office that truly, any decision made in that voting booth is sanctioned by a large majority already. That's why when you believe opposite to that referendum on the ballot that is so repugnant to you, it dawns on you who you actually live around and what they truly believe.
And that is FINE. It's part of the process, and I think a truly beautiful aspect of it is that you don't have to pass an IQ test or know every piece of leg out there in order to be a part of it...you can be Joe Sixpack (ugh, I have to stop using that reference), and you can have a bare minimal knowledge base of what is going on and stilll participate it. Freedom for All, Equality for All, Rights and Liberties for All. It's fantastic. And it's seldom used to its fullest, more's the pity.
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 06:48:08 PM
as an aside, who was it that had in their sig "it's not enough to have the right to be wrong; you must exercise it!"
If someone walks into the booth and randomly pulls the levers, i don't see how this could possibly be doing any good for the system, and can definitely see where it would be hurting the system.
No, actually it is good for the system. The fact that someone has the right to enter the voting booth is the important piece. Political literacy is a separate issue. The fact that any U.S. citizen can go in and throw the levers at random is a plus. Because it also means that every other U.S. citizen has that same ability. Any form of voter discrimination will ultimately leave out "informed" voters. Placing limits on voting may weed out the "undesirable" voters but it will ultimately leave out some that one would deem "desirable". If, for example, you say only people who've had 4 years of college can vote, you are going to eliminate bright people who happend to be in hard times and couldn't afford college, but who would've ultimately succeeded in college. So maybe with that barrier you've eliminated some dopes who would just throw levers at random, but you've also eliminated well-meaning voters.
So having the random schmuck is good because it means you aren't discriminating against the well-intentioned. And the more of those you have, the more they make up for those who don't take it as seriously.
Quote from: Iptuous on November 06, 2008, 06:48:08 PM
If someone walks into the booth and randomly pulls the levers, i don't see how this could possibly be doing any good for the system, and can definitely see where it would be hurting the system.
:x
Cramulus,
Randomocrat
Whoa, whoa, whoa!
No way am i saying that we should have some kind of discriminant to determine whether anyone is fit to vote!
That's not at all what i'm saying. I'm just talking about the campaigns to urge 100% participation and the stigmatizing of not voting, even if you are not able to make an informed decision. They don't seem to lead to anything but pandering as far as i can see.
And, of course, that is only a natural outcome, and i can't expect anything else. It was just a comment and a query on this communities value assessment of the situation.
I'm pretty conservative in some political senses, (in fact i'm sure some here would consider me a political luddite) but i'm not the type to impede participation.
Don't misunderstand. I am not suggesting you are for discrimination. I am simply pointing out why it is good that you have someone excercising their right to vote in a way that seems detrimental. The point is that it is symbolic of the fact that discrimination isn't occurring.