This is not a pre-written or properly formed rant. It's just some ideas that I'm throwing out in the vain hope that I might offer something productive...
Once upon a time, people used to be scared of witches. In fact, depending on where you are in the world, there are still plenty of people who believe in witches and live in fear of their alleged powers. Folklorist & historian, Ronald Hutton (author of 'Triumph Of The Moon') has spent a great amount of time researching the historical records with regards to the European perception of witches. The overwhelming message from both folklore and trial records is that witches were considered to be:
a) Almost exclusively female
b) Evil
c) Solitary
The notions that there were 'good' or 'white' witches is a modern construct. The idea that they worked in 'covens' stemmed from an account by R.Scott's 'The Discoverie Of Witchcraft' in the 17th century. Interestingly enough, the notion of teams of witches working in concert stuck in the public mind and shaped future perceptions in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of sources relating to witches demonstrate that most Europeans held witches to be evil, bitter, women working malevolent spells on their own. (Hutton distinguishes witches from 'cunningfolk' and 'charmers'. The former being largely male artisans who worked spells for money to boost their income and the latter, being one trick ponies who generally offered a very specific service for free eg: charm warts, tame horses etc.)
Cut to the present day and we find that a modern 'witch' protested against her neighbour's Halloween decorations, claiming that they were a hate crime and religiously insensitive.
Once upon a time, people believed in Vampires. They feared that the undead could sneak out of graves and walk among the living to feast upon their blood. I bet if you travelled around enough, you could still find some people who maintain that this is still true. In fact, it took until 1824 for the British government to strike out an old law from the statute books concerning the staking of vampires.
I'm fairly sure that if you examine the folklore & history of Vampires, the picture you will receive is going to be pretty dismal. Corpses, charnel houses, curses, soulessness, you get the idea. It's not for nothing that Peter Cushing made a film career that comprised mostly of killing Christopher Lee in a variety of different ways.
Cut to 2008. I find 'stop vampire hate on the net'. Whut!?
Turns out that the witches that you thought were witches are not witches but survivals of neolithic pagan religions that are entirely unsubstantiated. Turns out that Vampires are actually quite romantic. They don't just rip people's throats open anymore, they go to highschool and have awkward moments with the girls they've got the hots for. They're clean, well groomed and don't even smell a teeny bit like decaying meat.
And oddly enough, these revamped (pun!) images are increasingly accepted into popular discourse. It's ok to dress like Vlad the Impaler, just so long as everyone knows that you don't drink blood, only 'psychic energy' and that it's always with consent. Not like those other bad vampires. Not like those other bad witches.
What is the human need to flirt with a neutered form of darkness? Why let the facts get in the way of a good story?
What intrigues me is what new sub-culture will spring up? What new evil will become the object of our affections? Is there a limit or will the felons of history become redeemed with enough attention and weak justifications? It's ok to be a witch. It's even ok to be a vampire. History was wrong! We totally misread them! Is it ok to be a Grand Inquisitor? Is it ok to be in the SS? How about the Knights of the KKK? Child murderers?
In 100 years from now, in whatever store replaces Hot Topic as the wellspring of pre-packaged rebellion, will we see teens sloping around malls dressed as 'Muhajadeen'? 'No! You've got it all wrong! It's not about holy war, it's about buying this green jacket and wearing my scarf in this manner. DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING!?'
:jihaad:
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
The Nordic crowd, I forgot about them. Of course, not all historical depictions are true, in fact many are not. (eg: European perception of Native Americans for one of a gazllion examples). However, just about every culture has had some notion of evil magic and evil undead beasties stalking the living. They feel like odd choices for people to identify with. As words 'witch' and 'vampire' are heavily laden with baggage and it seems to me, to be more trouble than it's worth to renovate them.
I'm wondering what other figures, widely considered taboo will get a political correctness overhaul in the future. Is it possible to romantacize a medieval executioner for example?
Quote from: Mangrove on November 25, 2008, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
The Nordic crowd, I forgot about them. Of course, not all historical depictions are true, in fact many are not. (eg: European perception of Native Americans for one of a gazllion examples). However, just about every culture has had some notion of evil magic and evil undead beasties stalking the living. They feel like odd choices for people to identify with. As words 'witch' and 'vampire' are heavily laden with baggage and it seems to me, to be more trouble than it's worth to renovate them.
I'm wondering what other figures, widely considered taboo will get a political correctness overhaul in the future. Is it possible to romantacize a medieval executioner for example?
I doubt the executioner will get romanticized, simply because there's not as much mystique surrounding them. My guess would be that the following will be romanticized, at some point or another. I shall provide a snippet of the future mob mentality for each:
1) Zombies ("Zombies are totally noble, striving for their goals without distraction. It is high time people stop persecuting us for our dietary choices.")
2) Werewolves ("Dude, it's true, I'm a werewolf. I get these wolfish tendencies when there's a full moon." Me: "Like?" "Like, I want to howl, and stuff." Me:". . . ." "But it's okay, 'cuz I'm just a psychic werewolf, so I don't want to eat anyone or anything.")
3) Bigfoot ("Bigfoot represents our dignified heritage. Plus, he's definitely real. My brother knows this dude who knows this dude who took his picture.")
4) Men in Black ("The path to true knowledge is secrecy. THEY are out there.")
God, the future is gonna suck.
It's boredom, Mang...postpostmodernistic boredom.
All rich societies have their fetishes...vampirism, teenagers blindly joining covens, believing you're a shape-shifter and the like to me are just such fetishes.
:lulz:
I think Zombies are a shoe-in for the next sub-culture.
Wombie: A person who believes they are undead.
I suspect it'll go like this:
Wombie: FUCK YUO MAN! I DONT EAT LIKE THIS BECAUSE I WANT TO. I'M SICK!! THE INTERNET IS SO FACIST!! :x
Oh crap, I forgot in my OP to include the 3rd most obvious one....Pirates!
Witches, vampires and pirates.
Quote from: Mangrove on November 25, 2008, 10:20:34 PM
I suspect it'll go like this:
Wombie: FUCK YUO MAN! I DONT EAT LIKE THIS BECAUSE I WANT TO. I'M SICK!! THE INTERNET IS SO FACIST!! :x
:lulz: :cry:
I'm laughing and crying at the same time. The former because what you say is true, and the latter because what you say is true.
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
All the Odinists I've met have been big on getting into, and winning, a lot of fights. They also display a sense of honor that I have yet to find in most other people. Granted, 90% of them have been to prison (the Odinists, I mean.) The ones I've met are about as war-like as you can get in modern society without becoming a serial murderer (which is sinful in Asatru; they consider murder and a righteous killing two entirely separate things, one being in battle, the other being in cold blood.) I've known a number that gravitate towards the military, and the rest simply use it as a code to live the way they want.
I have to say, I've always felt that Norse Mythology is the most beatiful of any that I've studied. Even the parts without focus on war can be very guiding to a person, I think. If I was a pagan, I'd probably be an Odinist.
Jenne - it could be postpostmodern boredom. What I'm trying to figure out it how/why humans are feeling the need to reinvent & redefine these things.
Slavery:
Me? A slave owner!! Why that's fighting talk where I come from. I am an 'indentured labour supervisor'.
Pirates:
We really didn't ever hurt anyone, rape anyone or steal. We pretty much just wore bandannas, eye patches and spoke with a stupid, affected accent we cribbed from R L Stevenson.
:mittens:, Mang
you've very squarely hit the nail I set up in my piece "The Strange Times".
the thing about the mainstream is that all of these images and tropes have to get continually recontextualized and represented for a modern audience. And that as the mainstream fragments into hundreds of tributaries, there's so much MORE to recontextualize and reinvent for modern generations.
My girlfriend was in high school when Britney and Christina kissed on TV. Her class saw that as the first time that bisexuality was accepted in the media. I had to tell her, lord no, it gets rewritten and recontexualized and reaccepted every year. Every generation has a vampire story - when I was in high school it was Interview with the Vampire, then Blade. Now it's Twilight. They have to keep remaking these stories so they make sense in the modern theater.
gotta catch a train, more on this later
Quote from: Doktor Loki on November 25, 2008, 10:25:53 PM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
All the Odinists I've met have been big on getting into, and winning, a lot of fights. They also display a sense of honor that I have yet to find in most other people. Granted, 90% of them have been to prison (the Odinists, I mean.) The ones I've met are about as war-like as you can get in modern society without becoming a serial murderer (which is sinful in Asatru; they consider murder and a righteous killing two entirely separate things, one being in battle, the other being in cold blood.) I've known a number that gravitate towards the military, and the rest simply use it as a code to live the way they want.
I have to say, I've always felt that Norse Mythology is the most beatiful of any that I've studied. Even the parts without focus on war can be very guiding to a person, I think. If I was a pagan, I'd probably be an Odinist.
I've never met any Odinists. I did know one guy who started out as a ceremonial magician with a heavy interest in John Dee and then converted to Asatru.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 25, 2008, 10:29:42 PM
:mittens:, Mang
you've very squarely hit the nail I set up in my piece "The Strange Times".
the thing about the mainstream is that all of these images and tropes have to get continually recontextualized and represented for a modern audience. And that as the mainstream fragments into hundreds of tributaries, there's so much MORE to recontextualize and reinvent for modern generations.
My girlfriend was in high school when Britney and Christina kissed on TV. Her class saw that as the first time that bisexuality was accepted in the media. I had to tell her, lord no, it gets rewritten and recontexualized and reaccepted every year. Every generation has a vampire story - when I was in high school it was Interview with the Vampire, then Blade. Now it's Twilight. They have to keep remaking these stories so they make sense in the modern theater.
gotta catch a train, more on this later
Thanks Cram. Will be interested in your input. A few weeks back Mrs Mang' & I finally went to a Ren Faire just to see what the hell it was about. I tried to explain the 'strange times' notion to her when we were there.
Oh the reinvention thing to me is easy as pie. See it as fashion, if you will. It gets re-and-de-constructed according to the times. What's in now was in before, just tweaked, or upped a notch here, or reconfigured there. A la mode is another way of saying "what was your parents' but dressed up to look new."
The whole "other" thing--embracing the dark form of the otherwise natural to make it SEEM unnatural--that came about en masse after WWI in the postmodern age. I studied it for my French major--all those cubist, dadaist, babbling artists who had seen so much carnage they didn't know how to deal with the human side of yuck. Machines that kill and torture and maim into the millions--that was a surrealist-now-real concept that tortured and bewildered and enticed them in the 20's.
Now, I say "en masse" because the West really I don't think had seen this as a viable genre until the events of WWI had occured. I think this notion of the "dark other" was like farts under the blanket--kept people warm at night but still done away from the public eye. But war is so very out in the open, so the unnatural creature within was finally without (as in, out and about). And there you have it--Mary Shelley, reincarnated.
Ninjas.
Mang, it was an interesting essay, but I think you're confusing some of the "it's so cool to be goth! Look at me, I'm different ans special!" people with the "trying to be connected with and honor my ancestors" people. For instance, witchcraft isn't a word especially loaded with negative connotations if you aren't raised Christian. Most cultures have witches, and they're not always considered evil... many times the word is used to describe a healer, even in Western culture.
Not everyone "gets" ancestor worship. But hell, not everyone "gets" Christianisty, more's the better.
Oh, I was also going to mention something about how Wicca really is a modern result of disenfranchised, disconnected people living in a land dominated by a foreign religion, seeking a nature-based alternative religion that at least somewhat resonated with their heritage. None existed, so they invented one. The only Wiccans who really bother me are the ones who pretend it wasn't reinvented, but "recovered". Oh, also spooky witchy-woo types bug the shit out of me.
Plenty of cottage-witchy superstitions and connected rituals still exist and are present even in our mainstream Western culture, so the threads of European paganism do exist to connect us to the past, they're just very tenuous for most of us, except those who come from the few Western cultures that managed to survive the competing invasions of Islam and Christianity with their lore relatively intact.
Quote from: Mangrove on November 25, 2008, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
The Nordic crowd, I forgot about them. Of course, not all historical depictions are true, in fact many are not. (eg: European perception of Native Americans for one of a gazllion examples). However, just about every culture has had some notion of evil magic and evil undead beasties stalking the living. They feel like odd choices for people to identify with. As words 'witch' and 'vampire' are heavily laden with baggage and it seems to me, to be more trouble than it's worth to renovate them.
I'm wondering what other figures, widely considered taboo will get a political correctness overhaul in the future. Is it possible to romantacize a medieval executioner for example?
Discordians
Quote from: Mangrove on November 25, 2008, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
The Nordic crowd, I forgot about them. Of course, not all historical depictions are true, in fact many are not. (eg: European perception of Native Americans for one of a gazllion examples). However, just about every culture has had some notion of evil magic and evil undead beasties stalking the living. They feel like odd choices for people to identify with. As words 'witch' and 'vampire' are heavily laden with baggage and it seems to me, to be more trouble than it's worth to renovate them.
I'm wondering what other figures, widely considered taboo will get a political correctness overhaul in the future. Is it possible to romantacize a medieval executioner for example?
I think women with loose buttholes, like in DeSade's novels, will be as goddesses in the tomorrow.
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 02:25:19 AM
Mang, it was an interesting essay,
Thank you :D
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 02:25:19 AM
but I think you're confusing some of the "it's so cool to be goth! Look at me, I'm different ans special!" people with the "trying to be connected with and honor my ancestors" people.
Possibly.
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 02:25:19 AM
For instance, witchcraft isn't a word especially loaded with negative connotations if you aren't raised Christian.
True, but people everywhere have always been afraid of the possibility of 'malefic' magic, regardless of whether they were Christian or not. To be more specific - I was riffing off of Hutton's book (Triumph Of The Moon) which is focussed on the British Isles and the way in which over the past 200 years, the whole notion of what constitutes 'pagan' and 'witch' has been reinvented, retooled and re-evaluated numerous times and often without substantiation.
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 02:25:19 AM
Most cultures have witches, and they're not always considered evil... many times the word is used to describe a healer, even in Western culture.
The term 'witch' might be applied to healers in Western culture, but I suspect that's a fairly modern convention. Even in the 1950's & 60's in Britain, with the rise of people like Gerald Gardner & Alex Sanders, there was still a huge outcry over the term being anything other than a negative. Modern 'good witch' within the Judeo/Christian world is still...umm...modern. :D
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 02:25:19 AM
Not everyone "gets" ancestor worship. But hell, not everyone "gets" Christianisty, more's the better.
True. I agree with you here. But not if you're including 'vampires' in this.... :lol:
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 02:34:16 AM
Oh, I was also going to mention something about how Wicca really is a modern result of disenfranchised, disconnected people living in a land dominated by a foreign religion, seeking a nature-based alternative religion that at least somewhat resonated with their heritage. None existed, so they invented one. The only Wiccans who really bother me are the ones who pretend it wasn't reinvented, but "recovered". Oh, also spooky witchy-woo types bug the shit out of me.
Hellz yes!! :mittens:
Quote from: OPTIMUS PINECONE on November 26, 2008, 04:30:20 AM
I think women with loose buttholes, like in DeSade's novels, will be as goddesses in the tomorrow.
Sounds like someone is ALREADY DRUNK.
Quote from: Mangrove on November 26, 2008, 04:31:54 AM
True, but people everywhere have always been afraid of the possibility of 'malefic' magic, regardless of whether they were Christian or not. To be more specific - I was riffing off of Hutton's book (Triumph Of The Moon) which is focussed on the British Isles and the way in which over the past 200 years, the whole notion of what constitutes 'pagan' and 'witch' has been reinvented, retooled and re-evaluated numerous times and often without substantiation.
Gotta agree with you on that.
Quote
The term 'witch' might be applied to healers in Western culture, but I suspect that's a fairly modern convention. Even in the 1950's & 60's in Britain, with the rise of people like Gerald Gardner & Alex Sanders, there was still a huge outcry over the term being anything other than a negative. Modern 'good witch' within the Judeo/Christian world is still...umm...modern. :D
This is also, indeed, more or less true as it applies to Europe, however most regions all over the world have had their "magical healers", and for lack of a better word, the ones in many areas were dubbed "witch-doctors". The issue of translation makes things less than clear, as obviously Christian Westerners bring their own connotations to the word "witch", even when it's used in the positive sense, and the connotations of the native words are lost to those who are not native speakers.
Quote
True. I agree with you here. But not if you're including 'vampires' in this.... :lol:
NO FUCKING VAMPIRES. :lulz:
MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDMOTHER WAS A REALLY REAL FOR REALS VAMPIRE
I've heard of a Roman cult that drank blood, and was responsible for some of the modern legends. (can't find an online source, was late night history channel) Though I think they may have been ripping off an older legend about blood drinking monsters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empusa <-- greek/roman vampires, or mythical blood drinker(s) at any rate
Edir: Oh yeah, next romanticized myth is gonna be Eris.
Mang' this is an excellent piece, and I wish it had already been written before I got into a big argument with a self proclaimed "wiccan" on friday night about her bullshit beliefs...
I've often wondered how -exactly- psychic vampires "drink" energy. None have ever been able to properly (for my tastes) explain the mechanics of the procedure.
And, while I agree with Nigel to a point about magic practitioners not always being seen as exactly evil, they are almost always (at least from my research) feared to some degree. Even shamans in North American Aboriginal culture were certainly respected, but also feared to a large extent. In any culture with magic practitioners around it was considered a bad move to fuck with the local brujo or bruja, lest strange things should begin happening to you.
Quote from: BAWHEED on November 26, 2008, 01:33:48 PM
I've often wondered how -exactly- psychic vampires "drink" energy. None have ever been able to properly (for my tastes) explain the mechanics of the procedure.
They wear dark clothes and try to speak in a soft, monotone voice, in emulation of their holy figure, Saint Lestat. After that the Divine Energy becomes transfused into them by the powers of darkness and stuff, presumably in some kind of undead osmosis.
I can't say any more, lest my vampyre brethren turn on me and suck out my psychic energy for betraying their undead secret of undead-ness.
Manta,
gonna get psychic-raped by angsty teens with skin pigment deficiencies
Quote from: Doktor Loki on November 25, 2008, 10:25:53 PM
Quote from: Manta Obscura on November 25, 2008, 09:57:47 PM
This is very insightful and raises some good points, Mang. I'm completely flummoxed with the whole vampire movement, as well as a lot of other movements out there. For instance, the "Neo-Norse" movement, where people apparantly worship the ancient Nordic gods/goddesses. These same people - a large portion of them at least (or so I am assuming) - fail to live lives which reflect the war-like orientation of the Nordic god-folk. There are, indeed, major discrepancies.
I imagine that similar trends will invade secular thought as well, with atheists going back to the Greek philosophers for their roots or something. Fifty years from now, there might be a sizable sub-culture urinating in the streets in emulation of Diogenes.
All the Odinists I've met have been big on getting into, and winning, a lot of fights. They also display a sense of honor that I have yet to find in most other people. Granted, 90% of them have been to prison (the Odinists, I mean.) The ones I've met are about as war-like as you can get in modern society without becoming a serial murderer (which is sinful in Asatru; they consider murder and a righteous killing two entirely separate things, one being in battle, the other being in cold blood.) I've known a number that gravitate towards the military, and the rest simply use it as a code to live the way they want.
I have to say, I've always felt that Norse Mythology is the most beatiful of any that I've studied. Even the parts without focus on war can be very guiding to a person, I think. If I was a pagan, I'd probably be an Odinist.
Well-put. I take back what I said about the Odinists (Odinites?). Having only met about fifteen of them in my lifetime - and all fifteen of them were rather stupid - I guess my perspective was pretty biased.
Quote from: BAWHEED on November 26, 2008, 01:33:48 PM
I've often wondered how -exactly- psychic vampires "drink" energy. None have ever been able to properly (for my tastes) explain the mechanics of the procedure.
Fact of the matter is, those motherfuckers will starve they stupid-ass selves to DEATH if they don't eat a sandwich every once in a while. Also, there is nothing funnier than a self-proclaimed "vampire" eating a sandwich, unless it's clown porn.
Quote from: BAWHEED on November 26, 2008, 01:33:48 PM
And, while I agree with Nigel to a point about magic practitioners not always being seen as exactly evil, they are almost always (at least from my research) feared to some degree. Even shamans in North American Aboriginal culture were certainly respected, but also feared to a large extent. In any culture with magic practitioners around it was considered a bad move to fuck with the local brujo or bruja, lest strange things should begin happening to you.
Oh yeah, and also this. I was going to say that whether practitioners of "magic" are feared really depends, A LOT, on what kind of magic they practice. Someone who communes with powerful spirits = feared. Generally. Mild-mannered ladies who practice herb charms and midwifery, not so much, especially if they practice it within a cultural framework that makes them appear benevolent. My paternal grandma, a Baptist from the south, worked with herbal healing and charms her whole life, and no one thought twice about it because
the other ladies did too. They just didn't think of it as anything unusual. Nowadays we'd call most of what they did "superstition". My maternal great-grandma, a nominally Mormon hillbilly by conversion and marriage, also worked with herbs in a not-necessarily-straightforward way involving superstition and ritual, and called it "greenwifing" or something odd like that.
I strongly doubt these examples are even vaguely unusual. I suspect, even just based on what I've gleaned from talking to my dad and my (admittedly quite crazy so I take everything she says with a grain of salt) mom, that this kind of "casual witchery" thing was/is incredibly common. Add to that a deeply-ingrained cultural belief in ancestral communication and "listening to the land", and you have something ridiculously close to what modern people are calling "witchcraft", except within an interestingly adapted Judeo-Christian framework. Remove the framework, and you're left with... what? Certainly not fearsome grandmas!
Point.
Great rant Mang!!!!!
:mittens:
Your point is well proven here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/23/AR2008112302158_3.html?sub=AR&sid=ST2008111401409&s_pos= (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/23/AR2008112302158_3.html?sub=AR&sid=ST2008111401409&s_pos=)
I have a real hard time with the whole "vampire movement" :lulz: I just can't comprehend that people are really truly that stupid.
A fun test to do with "psychic vampires" (or "aura seers," regular psychics, or any other mystical fraud) if you ever run into one*:
1) First, ask them if they can sense your energy. They will say "yes."
2) Ask them if they can sense your energy a few feet away from them. They will say "yes."
3) Hold an object, like a book, in front of your head. Ask them if they can sense your energy. They will say "yes."
4) Ask them if, since all of this is "true," you were to stand behind a long, thin (yet opaque) wall that was just taller than your body, would they be able to sense your energy and discover where you are behind the wall. They will start blathering and sputtering, not knowing how to reconcile their claims with the challenge.
5) Laugh as their worldview is shattered. Find another "psychic vampire" or mystic person and repeat.
*Note: I blatantly stole this from Dr. Raymond Smullyan's essay, "On Astrology," adapting it in a few ways.
I never meet any psychic vamps...but I swear my step-monster-in-law is one. Everytime I'm around her I just want to go limp and crawl into a fetal position.
Quote from: Khara on November 26, 2008, 05:11:50 PM
Great rant Mang!!!!!
:mittens:
Your point is well proven here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/23/AR2008112302158_3.html?sub=AR&sid=ST2008111401409&s_pos= (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/23/AR2008112302158_3.html?sub=AR&sid=ST2008111401409&s_pos=)
I have a real hard time with the whole "vampire movement" :lulz: I just can't comprehend that people are really truly that stupid.
Never underestimate the human potential for stupidity or how far people will go to "fit in".
Drinking the blood of a kill, in hunting is fairly common. The basic idea is the energy exchange, which is not complex and applicable to other similar consumptions. For instance, this is part of the German Jaegermeister history.
But blood is food, so that's not really analogous to people who claim to feed on non-matter energy.
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 08:05:16 PM
But blood is food, so that's not really analogous to people who claim to feed on non-matter energy.
And you're doing WHAT, right now?
Are you calling me a psychic energy vampire?
Quote from: OPTIMUS PINECONE on November 26, 2008, 07:27:54 PM
Drinking the blood of a kill, in hunting is fairly common. The basic idea is the energy exchange, which is not complex and applicable to other similar consumptions. For instance, this is part of the German Jaegermeister history.
Great point--makes me want to research blood rites and how they are stictly verboten in some cultures and totally sacrosanct in others.
Back in my day, there were no such thing as 'psychic vampires'. If you wanted to have all your emotion and will-to-live sucked out of you, go find an alcoholic and get them talking about their life story.
Quote from: Mangrove on November 27, 2008, 04:30:36 PM
Back in my day, there were no such thing as 'psychic vampires'. If you wanted to have all your emotion and will-to-live sucked out of you, go find an alcoholic and get them talking about their life story.
Or observe Beyonce in mid-performance of any song.
Quote from: Mangrove on November 27, 2008, 04:30:36 PM
Back in my day, there were no such thing as 'psychic vampires'. If you wanted to have all your emotion and will-to-live sucked out of you, go find an alcoholic and get them talking about their life story.
:lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 08:13:34 PM
Are you calling me a psychic energy vampire?
I'm calling EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, a psychic vampire.
Except Peter Griffin.
I take issue with that... I'm more of a psychic gremlin.
Quote from: Nigel on November 27, 2008, 08:37:15 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on November 27, 2008, 04:30:36 PM
Back in my day, there were no such thing as 'psychic vampires'. If you wanted to have all your emotion and will-to-live sucked out of you, go find an alcoholic and get them talking about their life story.
:lulz:
It's funny because it's true.
Drunk: Lemee tell ya sumthin'.....yer all a buncha bashtards...[hic]....'cept you....i love ya man....yer my besht buddy...no rilly...I'm not jus' sayin' that 'cuz I'm drunk neither.....acshully...I'm not drunk...[stagger]....