Principia Discordia

It strikes me that with the wealth of skill and talent at our disposal, we should be making a much, much bigger splash than we are. This community is unique in that almost each of us is good at something and capable of learning how to be good at other things. We are creative, we have quite impressive rhetorical and media skills, and I don't think I'm really exaggerating when I say that if an advertising company had a pool as technically and creatively competent as this, it would have a marked advantage in the industry of making people believe stupid things.

So what is holding us back? We have the talent, the skills, and the ideas to make waves, but I don't think we are living up to our potential. So, in this post, I'll set out my sincere and constructive criticisms of the Discordian Society in general, and the PDCOM community in particular.


1. Lack of Identity

For all the energy we spend trying to make sure we're not getting stuck in dogmatism or typecasting the Discordian movement, it's ironic just how predictable and dogmatic we've become. Instead of saying FNORD or spouting 23 every ten seconds, we're laughing at FNORDs and 23s every ten seconds.

Discordia doesn't need a definition, but it needs a culture. As varied as Discordians are in our personal lives, we need cultural landmarks we can relate to and point to in order to communicate Discordian ideas that have no easy analogies in normal communication.

We shouldn't overhaul everything to be a carbon copy of the PD, but we need to recognize the cultural significance of those aspects of Discordia, and be able use them constructively without belittling each other.

Internally, we need to be able to communicate with a standard vocabulary and be able to recognize -- and accept -- one another quickly and efficiently.


2. Lack of Vision

We've got distaste for the Status Quo down to a science around here, and most of us aren't lacking in a general nonspecific desire to change things whether on a large scale or just locally. Many of us have taken to the streets in furtherance of various GASMs, so I don't think we lack motivation, dedication, or determination.

But we are, generally speaking, easily jaded and thoroughly cynical. We tend to think larger goals are either unacheivable or pointless. Either the task is too hard or it's too inconsequential; it's either impossible to change the world or such change is meaningless because it is corruptible.

This is complete horse shit, even if it is true. Of course any change we can make is corruptible. That's why we're HERE, because an idea that started out promising and new has become an entrenched, corrupted, stale, sour, and rotten System. That's why ten or ten thousand years from now, someone will be around to get rid of OUR stupid ideas.

The Discordian Community itself has become corrupt. Maybe it hasn't been mass-marketed or pre-packaged yet, but we have been sold out for some time on the idea that the ultimate goal of a philosophical revolution should be a static Utopia where everything is perfect.

History is not driven by periods of calm stability, but by tumultuous sequences of upheaval and cultural wreckage. It is only after the established order is demolished that a better order can be established.

Discordians, I fear, are sometimes worried about what would happen if we DID ultimately bring down the entire System. We are concerned about what we would do after that. But it isn't our job to put the pieces back together, it's our job to tear them apart.

Discordia isn't about being there, it's about GETTING there. That's the function of the Discordian Society.

So I think the first issue we need to address is, what exactly do we think we're trying to do? And the answer to that is, we're not bringing about the New Order, we're just getting rid of the OLD one.


3. Lack of Perspective

Today's world is far from the 1960's when Discordia was really born. Now, while people might read a flyer or a pamphlet, they won't spend much time reflecting on it. People don't spend much time reflecting on anything, and that's a problem for the bulk of Discordian materials.

These days everything is about image and convenience. People are hyper-stimulated and hyper-informed on everything, which means a simple analysis or question about reality or a person's assumptions will fade quickly into background noise.

And it would seem that there are entire denominations of Discordia devoted to complaining about that. But that's the way it is, and as with other social norms, it isn't in our best interest to wish it wasn't true. We need to engage our creativity and adapt. Discordia is, philosophically, still light-years ahead of the curve. But in practice, we are far too slow at changing with the times.

I think we also need a slight shift in our ideas about what constitutes a successful conspiracy. In the world of up-to-the-minute Media coverage of everything from war to fake penis enlargement, a fast headline will always outweigh a slow expose' in terms of perceived importance.

Discordia doesn't need to be a vast, well-planned, or very cohesive network in order to LOOK like that's what it is. We aren't really in the business of conspiracy anyway (we can leave that to the douchebags in the AISB). All we should be interested in is getting other people looking for the conspiracy that we aren't.

My suggestion here is to focus not on building a conspiracy that should exist, but on putting out CLUES to a conspiracy that doesn't exist at all. It would be infinitely easier to hoax a conspiracy than it would be to build one. And since it isn't really our job to manage expectations or guide people to the "truth," I say we just invent a bunch of apparently correlated evidence that is actually linked by nothing at all. If nothing else, it could provide endless lulz as we turn the Pinks into the conspiracy theorists and teach them about the Law of Fives the hard way.


I think that's about all I had at the moment in the way of criticism. I'm trying to offer some actual suggestions as well as bitching, though, so if you think I missed something please point it out.

 :mittens: :mittens: :mittens: :mittens: :mittens:

FUCKING YES.


I am going to ponder this, and post back later.

     Something what I've wondered what after spending some time here (and this may have very well been discussed/ attempted in the past) is WHY is there NOT a radio show for this board? The talk/ rant slots are endless & the musik would be groovy, I'm sure. C'mon, CAIN could probably save his future body the arthritis by ranting for 4-5 hours a day, CRAM & TGRR at least some weekly slots, JENNE could probably do an 'activist' hour daily & JUST PLAIN AUDIO of what happens in NIGEL's office is worth 1-2 hours. Mostly, I need something to listen to while working here because Nigel's I-TUNES is filled with chick rock, it's kind of depressing.

Major Mittens, Vex.

More comments after I think more about it... I keep flipping between total agreement and disagreement with some bits.

     A 'Discordian Art' show could be a great way of making a print. Discordia has an international base of contributors. Diverse AND entertaining.

     http://www.hexmagazine.com/heathen_art.html

 CD/ DVD could include visual art, audio text/philosophies/ artwork, distro would be easy. AND could be launched by an event. Wouldn't an event be a fun way to meet and get to squeeze each others soft parts?

     SRSLY, the audience is out there, it just needs something it can grasp and say "where is it?"

FUCK YEAH!!

:mittens:

I am with everyone else, on the first read I was in complete agreement.  After the second, there is are a few points I want to ponder before I say anything!!!

As a Whole though!!!

Fucking GREAT PIECE!!

First - I think this post should be printed in Payne's issue of Intermittens in some form.


Largely, I agree with your post, and will interject commentary hither:

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 09:01:42 PM
It strikes me that with the wealth of skill and talent at our disposal, we should be making a much, much bigger splash than we are.

Yes, it may be that we merely lack a goal, a target with an endpoint. We have a lot of resources in our network, but they're not being directed towards "big splash" cannonball projects...

need more leaders
need more do-ers

Quote1. Lack of Identity

...Discordia doesn't need a definition, but it needs a culture.

What would help, I think, would be a significant presence.
How many Discordians do you think there are? I mean, people who if you asked them, "are you a Discordian?" would say "Yes" or "sort of" or some kind of affirmative even if they don't identify with with nouns. My guess is under a thousand?

All that culture stuff will emerge naturally as we approach critical mass.

we're gimped a bit because there's no Discordian Society to speak of, no actual group of people, just a network of concepts which connects disparate tribes and lone weirdos.

consequently, I don't think there's ever been a big recruitment push -- outside of Grant Morrison and Robert Anton Wilson's lectures. Like it or not, RAW used to carry the flag for Discordia, and now he's gone. To my knowledge - nobody's really taken the reigns.

There is a high number of Discordian movers and shakers who are making cool stuff in the mainstream, but little of it is an actual,  hm,  "ad" for Discordia.

So we don't have many open channels at the moment to recruit/convert/brainwash more spags for the Legion of Dynamic Discord.


Here's the problem: Getting dedicatedly evangelical gives a lot of us the heebie jeebies, right?

Quote
3. Lack of Perspective

Today's world is far from the 1960's when Discordia was really born. Now, while people might read a flyer or a pamphlet, they won't spend much time reflecting on it. People don't spend much time reflecting on anything, and that's a problem for the bulk of Discordian materials.

These days everything is about image and convenience. People are hyper-stimulated and hyper-informed on everything, which means a simple analysis or question about reality or a person's assumptions will fade quickly into background noise.

And it would seem that there are entire denominations of Discordia devoted to complaining about that. But that's the way it is, and as with other social norms, it isn't in our best interest to wish it wasn't true. We need to engage our creativity and adapt.

I think your assessment of the difficulies of breaching reality are spot on. In the end, I'm not sure if you're ultimately making a case against meme bombs / postergasm / other intrusions into pedestrian reality.

I do think we're getting better (read: more effective) as we go.

QuoteI think we also need a slight shift in our ideas about what constitutes a successful conspiracy. In the world of up-to-the-minute Media coverage of everything from war to fake penis enlargement, a fast headline will always outweigh a slow expose' in terms of perceived importance.

Discordia doesn't need to be a vast, well-planned, or very cohesive network in order to LOOK like that's what it is. We aren't really in the business of conspiracy anyway (we can leave that to the douchebags in the AISB). All we should be interested in is getting other people looking for the conspiracy that we aren't.

My suggestion here is to focus not on building a conspiracy that should exist, but on putting out CLUES to a conspiracy that doesn't exist at all. It would be infinitely easier to hoax a conspiracy than it would be to build one. And since it isn't really our job to manage expectations or guide people to the "truth," I say we just invent a bunch of apparently correlated evidence that is actually linked by nothing at all. If nothing else, it could provide endless lulz as we turn the Pinks into the conspiracy theorists and teach them about the Law of Fives the hard way.

what conspiracy are you talking about? I'm missing something here

just sowing paranoia in general?




anyway,
overall,
very good points

It's really important that we turn our analytical tools towards our own processes
and evaluate what works, what doesn't, where we're going, where we could be going, how to do it

so I highly applaud this effort

      Is it possible to get Obama involved somehow? That'd attract attention.

Vex, that was extremely coherent and well-thought-out.

I am all for concerted jaking, however, I am dead-set against evangelizing and I honestly don't LIKE the idea of Discordia having a cohesive image.

Cooperative Art projects? HELL YES.

Group Pranks? HELL YES.

I realize that this image you have, of Discordianism With A Presence, this is your Discordia, and that's AWESOME. I just don't want it to engulf my Discordia, which is more along the lines of Discordia; WTF?

Discordianism, as a whole, has more exposure and more Discordians than ever before in the last 50 years, and it's gotten there by being scattered, divisive, ridiculous, quarrelsome, and completely disorganized. Let's keep up the good work!

I just wanted to interject that I am including Discordianism and something of a history of Discordianism in my NaNoWriMo novel, and I am seriously (very seriously) going to try to get it OUT THERE.  I have been very conscious of the absence of RAW as Discordianism's cheerleader and have been thinking about taking it on myself.  Obviously there is a lot of uphill dancing against me, but keep in mind that RAW didn't start out famous either.  One could argue that he didn't die famous either.

I find I don't have a lot of 'new' ideas to bring to the Discordian table, and have becoming more and more aware of it in the last 2 years... I think The Sacred Bull might be my only truly valid contribution, and even it had been hinted at before.  Lacking new insights, I have been making a concerted effort to instead bring Discordianism to more people, and since I am primarily a story teller this seems to be the best way.

Perhaps an idea would be for people to decide what your talents are and to use these talents in a way which might bring Discordianism to a wider audience, pinealism, 23, BIP or what have you?

     Theory/ philosophy/ art doesn't need to appear didactic or 'evangelical' to be influential. Some of the most inspiring art for myself is work which most people dismiss(ed) as not being "serious". As point, Milan Knizak's "broken" & "destroyed" music. The Fluxus & DADAist art of Joseph Bueys. Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music" Lp!!
     Discordia has the sexy allure of WTF all about it. Use it girlfriend!

     http://www.artnotart.com/fluxus/mknizak--.html

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Beuys

     http://www.asylum-lunaticum.de/

Cram:

I apologize for my vagueness, the idea is better formed in my head than it shows up in print, I have to admit.

I don't mean to disparage the PosterGASM stuff at all, I love that stuff and it would suck if it went away. I've done my own, admittedly undocumented, stuff in that vein, too. But I think the GASM stuff is a good tool that's not being used very well. It's sort of like a jackhammer that's just been switched on and left by itself to wander around doing whatever. It's not living up to its potential.

The "conspiracy" bit is more or less meant to be an example, I guess, to illustrate that we don't have to be a huge enterprise to make the same kind of impact that big enterprises make. Large, well-funded organizations are increasingly turning to viral marketing and the like rather than ultra-expensive ad campaigns, because people are becoming generally desensitized to that stuff. Viral marketing is exactly up our alley. It's the sort of thing we've been doing forever.

But just imagine a set of clues left out for the Media (or even the government, if we're careful) to pick up on, that point to each other but to nothing else. Conventional wisdom dictates that these must be clues to a larger phenomenon, which they would start looking for immediately, except they'd have nothing to find except whatever they expect to find.

I have to say that I am most interested in expanding on basic Discordian mythology and making it accessible and familiar to children. I'm working on a Discordian ABC, and I also want to make up some Discordian nursery rhymes, as well as short Discordian parables, especially holyday-related ones.

My ultimate goal is to have my daughter and my freak housemate illustrate these horrible little parables, and make a little book modeled after the "Pagan Parenting" type books, called something totally cheeseriffic like "Raising Eris: Bringing Up Your Children in the Discordian Tradition".

I was also working on a Discordian revision of the Song of Solomon, but it got really boring.

the most obvious way (to me)

to get more energy
to get more people
without evangelizing

is to pierce larger media networks
Be in the newspaper
Get on TV
Do it live






carrying that idea into a tangent:

pranks and large scale media hacks are probably the most parsimonious way of grabbing attention.
Joey Skaggs said that the real point of media pranks (mind you I disagree with him, but he makes a really good point),
is that when you reveal the prank, you get a few minutes of REAL MEDIA ATTENTION

they'd ask him, "Why'd you do it, Joey? Why'd you lie to all those people about cock clams going extinct because the japanese are using them as aphrodesiacs?"

and he'd get to look at the camera and explain why he pulled this ridiculous prank
and how society is sick, and he's just holding up a mirror so they can see how insane it is

he said it's the only time you ever get to speak honestly on TV
without trying to sell anything or be entertaining or whatever
you just tell it like it is


pranks
deception
mindfucks

this is a methodology we are fluent in

OBAMA

Fuck that, I'm gonna speak as a mother.

And slip mayo packets in your shoes when you're not looking.

Obama can go in the fairy-tale book.

Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 10:25:19 PM
I have to say that I am most interested in expanding on basic Discordian mythology and making it accessible and familiar to children. I'm working on a Discordian ABC, and I also want to make up some Discordian nursery rhymes, as well as short Discordian parables, especially holyday-related ones.

I love this idea, Nigel.


AND, I love your new avatar too.

i fully agree with that sentiment, Cram.

the First thing we need to do is breach the Mass Media barrier somehow. whether that's with outright discordianism or not isn't all that important, so long as there is an opportunity made.

For example, a mailing campaign where 150 people send mini-DVDs to TV stations across the country, simultaneously, and the content of the disc is a short video that says "IMAGINE THIS WAS A BOMB" or something.

That would probably get picked up, and just the content of the disc could be enough of a MF without any commentary or interviews afterward.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
For example, a mailing campaign where 150 people send mini-DVDs to TV stations across the country, simultaneously, and the content of the disc is a short video that says "IMAGINE THIS WAS A BOMB" or something.

THAT'S SUCH A DANGEROUS GREAT IDEA
            /
:cramstipated:




srsly, that idea needs its own thread

i like the rant, i think the missing element around here may be leverage we have good people, creativity,  philosophy, motives, sense of humor etc but it gets limited results/exposure. In order to hit that next level make a big splash an event M/F has to be the right thing in the right place at the right time, a example would be the boston tea party a group of people preforming a act that could easily be meaningless but "right time right place" and it becomes a part of Americas national identity. the posters put up, the trolls that have been done, the ideas come up with all have high potential, we need to "find recognize and manipulate" those keystone points  and  we can make bigger things happen.    

Quote from: Cramulus on November 26, 2008, 10:34:27 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
For example, a mailing campaign where 150 people send mini-DVDs to TV stations across the country, simultaneously, and the content of the disc is a short video that says "IMAGINE THIS WAS A BOMB" or something.

THAT'S SUCH A DANGEROUS GREAT IDEA
            /
:cramstipated:




srsly, that idea needs its own thread

although it would be impossible for us to actually mail bombs around like that, nobody would stop to consider that. they'd have the "evidence" right in front of them, and they'd be scared at first, and then terrified when they realized 150 other stations all got the same message on the same day. and suddenly, there's an extensive, well-developed network of people nobody knows about, capable of sophisticated coordinated action, and it wasn't on anyone's radar before.

Quote from: F.M.E on November 26, 2008, 10:38:38 PM
i like the rant, i think the missing element around here may be leverage we have good people, creativity,  philosophy, motives, sense of humor etc but it gets limited results/exposure. In order to hit that next level make a big splash an event M/F has to be the right thing in the right place at the right time, a example would be the boston tea party a group of people preforming a act that could easily be meaningless but "right time right place" and it becomes a part of Americas national identity. the posters put up, the trolls that have been done, the ideas come up with all have high potential, we need to "find recognize and manipulate" those keystone points  and  we can make bigger things happen.    

continued - large groups or name brand recognition aren't necessary to make things happen. a small hand full of people is plenty. to borrow from comedy and real estate its timing and location. How do we learn to recognize those points where a handful of posters, a successful troll, a act of civil disobedience will have the necessary  leverage to make large movements happen??

Quote from: F.M.E on November 26, 2008, 10:53:51 PM

Quote from: F.M.E on November 26, 2008, 10:38:38 PM
i like the rant, i think the missing element around here may be leverage we have good people, creativity,  philosophy, motives, sense of humor etc but it gets limited results/exposure. In order to hit that next level make a big splash an event M/F has to be the right thing in the right place at the right time, a example would be the boston tea party a group of people preforming a act that could easily be meaningless but "right time right place" and it becomes a part of Americas national identity. the posters put up, the trolls that have been done, the ideas come up with all have high potential, we need to "find recognize and manipulate" those keystone points  and  we can make bigger things happen.    

continued - large groups or name brand recognition aren't necessary to make things happen. a small hand full of people is plenty. to borrow from comedy and real estate its timing and location. How do we learn to recognize those points where a handful of posters, a successful troll, a act of civil disobedience will have the necessary  leverage to make large movements happen??

this is the direction i'm trying to go in.

Quote from: F.M.E on November 26, 2008, 10:53:51 PM

Quote from: F.M.E on November 26, 2008, 10:38:38 PM
i like the rant, i think the missing element around here may be leverage we have good people, creativity,  philosophy, motives, sense of humor etc but it gets limited results/exposure. In order to hit that next level make a big splash an event M/F has to be the right thing in the right place at the right time, a example would be the boston tea party a group of people preforming a act that could easily be meaningless but "right time right place" and it becomes a part of Americas national identity. the posters put up, the trolls that have been done, the ideas come up with all have high potential, we need to "find recognize and manipulate" those keystone points  and  we can make bigger things happen.    

continued - large groups or name brand recognition aren't necessary to make things happen. a small hand full of people is plenty. to borrow from comedy and real estate its timing and location. How do we learn to recognize those points where a handful of posters, a successful troll, a act of civil disobedience will have the necessary  leverage to make large movements happen??

this is kind of a non-answer,
but your question is the core of The Art of Memetics

it talks about the process by which small events have large effects
both in culture
and inside your head

good read, especially for anyone that's interested in broadcasting with Eris

more of a question than an answer for sure, I have never had the right idea at the right time and don't know i would recognize the right/time place if i saw it.

i would spend time training myself to be able to do this (the art of memetics is on my read list already) and sharing insights into how this is done and honing each others ideas and skills in this area is a win idea to me

Well, I'm gonna be a bad Discordian for just a minute and look to the past.

The most successful Discordian promotional material up to this point, seems to utilize traditional channels. The same seems true of the SubGenuis impact. Illuminatus Trilogy, Principia Discordia, BoSG, etc are all traditional forms of media that used traditional media outlets. Bob promoted via the lecture circuit and books. Stang promotes via radio, book and lecture. Even our erstwhile bastion of Erisian Delights, pd.com is a now traditional media outlet.

GASMS, Pranks etc seem extremely useful as tools to mindfuck sombunal individuals... but I can't recall a good example of mindfuckery creating a lasting impression upon a mass audience. I mean, even with the Big Pranksters (Yes Men, Joey Skaggs etc), how much of a name have they made outside a small subculture?

I don't know that Mass Discordia is a good idea... I'm not even sure that I agree with Vex's view of what Discordianism is... I'm still thinking about it. However, I do think that counting on Memetics, Mindfucks, Pranks and GASMS might be self-defeating. Those tools might land a big win, but based on where we are and what's worked in the past, maybe those are long shots and we'd be better off focusing the majority of our energy on traditional tools with a smaller percentage of that energy invested in long shots with big payoffs.

If we produced something that could be published in a traditional sense, I'd guess that New Falcon, Deep Leaf or one of the other pro-RAW places just might help publish and promote it. If we rely on PDF's and the Internet, maybe it would work... or maybe it will get lost in all the other noise.I don't know, but it seems like something worth mentioning, IMO.

In Corporate Speak... R&D should be somewhere under 50% of the budget ;-)

I'll post a rebuttal to this shortly...

Quote from: BAWHEED on November 26, 2008, 10:30:16 PM

Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 10:25:19 PM
I have to say that I am most interested in expanding on basic Discordian mythology and making it accessible and familiar to children. I'm working on a Discordian ABC, and I also want to make up some Discordian nursery rhymes, as well as short Discordian parables, especially holyday-related ones.

I love this idea, Nigel.


AND, I love your new avatar too.

:D

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
i fully agree with that sentiment, Cram.

the First thing we need to do is breach the Mass Media barrier somehow. whether that's with outright discordianism or not isn't all that important, so long as there is an opportunity made.

For example, a mailing campaign where 150 people send mini-DVDs to TV stations across the country, simultaneously, and the content of the disc is a short video that says "IMAGINE THIS WAS A BOMB" or something.

That would probably get picked up, and just the content of the disc could be enough of a MF without any commentary or interviews afterward.

This is actually quite spectacular and lovely.

I hope the people doing the mailing would take EXTREME caution in making the DVD and envelope completely untraceable.

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 26, 2008, 11:28:54 PM
Well, I'm gonna be a bad Discordian for just a minute and look to the past.

The most successful Discordian promotional material up to this point, seems to utilize traditional channels. The same seems true of the SubGenuis impact. Illuminatus Trilogy, Principia Discordia, BoSG, etc are all traditional forms of media that used traditional media outlets. Bob promoted via the lecture circuit and books. Stang promotes via radio, book and lecture. Even our erstwhile bastion of Erisian Delights, pd.com is a now traditional media outlet.

GASMS, Pranks etc seem extremely useful as tools to mindfuck sombunal individuals... but I can't recall a good example of mindfuckery creating a lasting impression upon a mass audience. I mean, even with the Big Pranksters (Yes Men, Joey Skaggs etc), how much of a name have they made outside a small subculture?

I don't know that Mass Discordia is a good idea... I'm not even sure that I agree with Vex's view of what Discordianism is... I'm still thinking about it. However, I do think that counting on Memetics, Mindfucks, Pranks and GASMS might be self-defeating. Those tools might land a big win, but based on where we are and what's worked in the past, maybe those are long shots and we'd be better off focusing the majority of our energy on traditional tools with a smaller percentage of that energy invested in long shots with big payoffs.

If we produced something that could be published in a traditional sense, I'd guess that New Falcon, Deep Leaf or one of the other pro-RAW places just might help publish and promote it. If we rely on PDF's and the Internet, maybe it would work... or maybe it will get lost in all the other noise.I don't know, but it seems like something worth mentioning, IMO.

In Corporate Speak... R&D should be somewhere under 50% of the budget ;-)

I'll post a rebuttal to this shortly...

Memetics have been in use since the beginning of Discordianism. They just weren't using that label, so memes, just as much as Publishing Houses, have been successful tools of Discordian expansion.

What we need to do is merge media with mindfuck.

"What if the Green were Red" is a great mindfuck... IF however, "What if the Green were Red" was not only a small sign on a field, but if it were also whatifthegreenwerered.com and "What If The Green Were Red?" billboards etc... then you would have something that might hook a few fish. This might also include a "What If The Green Were Red?" troll or HIMEOBS grade attack on random forums... and "What If The Green Were Red" media kits mailed out to news orgs.

All of this, of course, leading up to a "What If The Green Were Red" book, which actually discusses the memes, ideas, concepts etc that we think will change the system, or break the machine or just make people think a bit.

In some sense, it pranking, in some sense its memetic warfare, in some sense its just advertising.

In some sense, its probably bullshit.

Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 11:36:34 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
i fully agree with that sentiment, Cram.

the First thing we need to do is breach the Mass Media barrier somehow. whether that's with outright discordianism or not isn't all that important, so long as there is an opportunity made.

For example, a mailing campaign where 150 people send mini-DVDs to TV stations across the country, simultaneously, and the content of the disc is a short video that says "IMAGINE THIS WAS A BOMB" or something.

That would probably get picked up, and just the content of the disc could be enough of a MF without any commentary or interviews afterward.

This is actually quite spectacular and lovely.

I hope the people doing the mailing would take EXTREME caution in making the DVD and envelope completely untraceable.

naw leave as many fingerprints you want, having 150 different fingerprints will freak them out even moar

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 26, 2008, 11:28:54 PM
Well, I'm gonna be a bad Discordian for just a minute and look to the past.

The most successful Discordian promotional material up to this point, seems to utilize traditional channels. The same seems true of the SubGenuis impact. Illuminatus Trilogy, Principia Discordia, BoSG, etc are all traditional forms of media that used traditional media outlets. Bob promoted via the lecture circuit and books. Stang promotes via radio, book and lecture. Even our erstwhile bastion of Erisian Delights, pd.com is a now traditional media outlet.

GASMS, Pranks etc seem extremely useful as tools to mindfuck sombunal individuals... but I can't recall a good example of mindfuckery creating a lasting impression upon a mass audience. I mean, even with the Big Pranksters (Yes Men, Joey Skaggs etc), how much of a name have they made outside a small subculture?

I don't know that Mass Discordia is a good idea... I'm not even sure that I agree with Vex's view of what Discordianism is... I'm still thinking about it. However, I do think that counting on Memetics, Mindfucks, Pranks and GASMS might be self-defeating. Those tools might land a big win, but based on where we are and what's worked in the past, maybe those are long shots and we'd be better off focusing the majority of our energy on traditional tools with a smaller percentage of that energy invested in long shots with big payoffs.

If we produced something that could be published in a traditional sense, I'd guess that New Falcon, Deep Leaf or one of the other pro-RAW places just might help publish and promote it. If we rely on PDF's and the Internet, maybe it would work... or maybe it will get lost in all the other noise.I don't know, but it seems like something worth mentioning, IMO.

In Corporate Speak... R&D should be somewhere under 50% of the budget ;-)

I'll post a rebuttal to this shortly...

I should have made a clearer distinction between Discordia and O:MF.

I do not care how "famous" Discordians get: in fact, like Nigel, I hope we don't get famous at all. WE are not the ones who should get to be the subject of scrutiny. Our actions should.

As for widespread, lasting impact on a mass market -- so far, mindfucks haven't really attempted to do so, but there are good examples of it happening accidentally -- think Aqua Teen Hunger Force viral marketing Lite-Brite incident in Boston.

This kind of thing is what I'm after, except make it deliberate (and obviously so) and make the incidents correlate in a way that looks like somebody is trying to hide something instead of advertise.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 27, 2008, 12:01:11 AM



I should have made a clearer distinction between Discordia and O:MF.

I do not care how "famous" Discordians get: in fact, like Nigel, I hope we don't get famous at all. WE are not the ones who should get to be the subject of scrutiny. Our actions should.

As for widespread, lasting impact on a mass market -- so far, mindfucks haven't really attempted to do so, but there are good examples of it happening accidentally -- think Aqua Teen Hunger Force viral marketing Lite-Brite incident in Boston.

This kind of thing is what I'm after, except make it deliberate (and obviously so) and make the incidents correlate in a way that looks like somebody is trying to hide something instead of advertise.

good clarification- i see no reason for discordia to be famous  either, it is better off being small under the radar famous/popular gets co opted in ways we wouldn't like and we would have to create a new banner to work/meet under. creating the appearance of a hidden and confusing agenda that makes lots of people wonder what strange and powerful forces are at work  :lulz: :lulz:

Quote from: Regret on November 26, 2008, 11:45:47 PM

Quote from: Nigel on November 26, 2008, 11:36:34 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
i fully agree with that sentiment, Cram.

the First thing we need to do is breach the Mass Media barrier somehow. whether that's with outright discordianism or not isn't all that important, so long as there is an opportunity made.

For example, a mailing campaign where 150 people send mini-DVDs to TV stations across the country, simultaneously, and the content of the disc is a short video that says "IMAGINE THIS WAS A BOMB" or something.

That would probably get picked up, and just the content of the disc could be enough of a MF without any commentary or interviews afterward.

This is actually quite spectacular and lovely.

I hope the people doing the mailing would take EXTREME caution in making the DVD and envelope completely untraceable.

naw leave as many fingerprints you want, having 150 different fingerprints will freak them out even moar

Fingerprints are only traceable if they're on file. That's not what I'm talking about.

Having MIBs show up at your house with a laundry list of questions when you're trying to get your kids to the sitter so that you can get to work on time is *really* inconvenient.

get your kids fingerprints on them :D
and i was assuming noone with registered fingerprints would be dumb enough to leave them on such things.

the first trace would have nothing to do with fingerprints: amass a list of where each package was mailed from using the postmark, then cross-reference those locations with the known membership of known networks, beginning with the high-profile organizations and working your way down. when you find nothing, then you'd analyze internet traffic and try to find websites that are frequently accessed by a set of nodes that is roughly similar to the map of package senders. which, of course, would lead them directly to PD. once you find somebody's internet tracks it's fairly easy to zero in on their IRL identity.

the answer to this is to work out an internet communication system that either masks your physical location (hard to do) or where individual members don't access the same central location (also hard to do).

just saying.

possibly a little too mean: get completely random people's fingerprints.  Just take the (unmarked DVD) and with your gloved hands mostly full, ask some stranger to hold it for a sec.

Also, bomb threats/anything that smells of one will probaby just get the sheep panicking.

at any rate, this isn't the place to discuss individual tactics or operations. i was just brainstorming some examples of what i was talking about.

What's the goal here?  What are 'we' trying to accomplish?

I agree that it might be beneficial if some ideas generated by Discordians (I'm thinking OMF, Shrapnel, Why I Put Up Posters, Sacred Bull etc.) got more mainstream exposure.  But actual discordians?  I dunno - seems like that would get real old, real fast.

A conspiracy?  What for? What would we do with one?

I think publishing books is the idea to go with.  Children's books that introduce concepts like tolerating ambiguity, optional rules, etc. would be an awesome idea.  There's a children's book which a panda that presents Buddhist parables to a pair of children ("Zen Shorts.")  Something like that with No-Pants would be awesome.


So: Formal Proposal Time:

We need to write a book.  A book that takes the best of the original PD, the BiP, our discussions on this forum, etc.  We need to publish it, and we need to promote it.  It will be... the Secunda Tertia Discordia, or STD. 


I'm seeing hardcover book, the kind that gets reviewed in blogging circles.  (Randall Munroe might be a good place to start.) and eventually makes its way into a newspaper review circle.

The book presents the "Discordian Worldview" (or maybe a few conflicting "Discordian Worldview.")  It presents the Curse of Greyface and the Black Iron Prison as two faces of the same coin.  It presents memetics and warns of being a 'dirty sneezer', especially in relationship to sneezing this book.  It elaborates further on the concept of the Reality Grids by showing how the same event can be validly interpreted with different models.  (Perhaps invoking Piaget?)  It presents Absurdism and relates it Horrormirth and The Lulz.


Second Proposal:

We make children's books that introduce "Discordian" concepts.

These won't be overtly Discordian, but will instead promote healthy ideas for healthy children.  Any link to Discordianism would be in the About the Author section.

Brainstorm:
The Emperor's New Rules - The Emperor needs some new laws, so a pair of cunning lawyers sell him a new set of laws that essentially boil down to making sure people follow the new set of laws, and any good citizen can see that plainly.  Blah blah blah a little boy asks why they need the new laws in the first place since they they don't accomplish anything but make life more obnoxious.  You know the story.

A new kid moves into the neighborhood and organizes the kids into fun, but ultimately pointless, activities.  Another watches and, for every thing they do, demands to know what the point is.  All the other kids have a blast, but he misses out.  Greyface kid might optionally organize the parents to ban some harmless activity because he personally doesn't like it.

Quote from: GA on November 27, 2008, 02:09:47 AM
I think publishing books is the idea to go with. 

I agree, I think this is one possible route to awesome. We've had some good talk about this, see below:

QuoteSo: Formal Proposal Time:

We need to write a book.  A book that takes the best of the original PD, the BiP, our discussions on this forum, etc.  We need to publish it, and we need to promote it.  It will be... the Secunda Tertia Discordia, or STD. 

Yes! Please start a thread about this and take the reigns to edit it / collect material.

this is the exact exact exact energy (from what I've read) which minted the Black Iron Prison metaphor. (then called the PD06)

I am working on this simultaneously with the Etc. Discordia, but it is not intended to be a total repackaging, just a collection of some stuff floating on the top. It is taking a long time, but it will be worth the wait.

but that should not preclude anyone from rewriting the Principia


Which is a very interesting process







kind of like building a lightsaber

QuoteSecond Proposal:

We make children's books that introduce "Discordian" concepts.

I agree, please refer to the thread in progress in the TFYSS subsection,
BIP for Kids (Johnny Learns About the World) (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12215.0)

and help them with progress. A manuscript is in place, and Hoopla is starting to illustrate stuff.
It's not my project, but I imagine they'd appreciate help coaching its direction.

A children's story about a handful of delusional/OCD kids, who believes with absolute conviction that the dark-colored tiles really are lava, that their nose-line must not be allowed to cross with other lines, that Cthulhu will get in their rooms if they allow things to be at right angles to each other.  Oh, and a kid who believes with absolute conviction that praying to God every night will help his mom get better.

Read the thread. I'm not talking about making a conspiracy, I was making an example that consisted of a hypothetical illusion of a conspiracy that could feed into public fear for no reason except to sow discord and show people, for example that they're selling their souls for only a pitiful illusion of "security" -- they're signing away real rights and liberty for nothing at all. The Discordian Society itself doesn't need to benefit from anything 'we' do - it's still the DS and it has nothing to do with being a legitimate or even recognized group.

Cram - yeah, I was aware of Johnny Learns about the World.  I'll have to look back into that.

Mostly I feel the burning need to do something to counter toxic memes in children.  Back when I was in high school I had to transfer buses to one used by the local Catholic school.  Some of the children on that bus had enough bigotry, hatred, judgmentalism, and in-group/out-group mentality to last them the rest of their lives.

Quote from: Regret on November 27, 2008, 12:53:49 AM
get your kids fingerprints on them :D
and i was assuming noone with registered fingerprints would be dumb enough to leave them on such things.

Fingerprints are soooo not the main way packages are traced, dude. Let's just call them irrelevant in this scenario.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 27, 2008, 12:56:38 AM
the first trace would have nothing to do with fingerprints: amass a list of where each package was mailed from using the postmark, then cross-reference those locations with the known membership of known networks, beginning with the high-profile organizations and working your way down. when you find nothing, then you'd analyze internet traffic and try to find websites that are frequently accessed by a set of nodes that is roughly similar to the map of package senders. which, of course, would lead them directly to PD. once you find somebody's internet tracks it's fairly easy to zero in on their IRL identity.

the answer to this is to work out an internet communication system that either masks your physical location (hard to do) or where individual members don't access the same central location (also hard to do).

just saying.

Oh, you already covered it.

on doing something big --
it is a natural and appropriate urge to want to score a big reaction, to want to throw the golden apple that makes the gods dance... and why not, it's a part of the mythology, a small and relatively valueless (to gods) hunk of gold causing such mischief, it doesn't get any better. this is why the the "do something big" is a recurring theme in the M/F threads and i think it should be. promoting and advancing discordia, new books, new ideas and new people exposed are great and worthy causes and should be pursued, but promoting discord itself rolling the little snowball that becomes an avalanche, telling the story that becomes a media frenzy, "tossing the apple" this an idea that appeals to most of us, not to be famous or rich or even necessarily to make the world a better place just a weirder place, a less complaisant one a world that stays on its toes expecting the unexpected, a world that considers that things may not quit be as they seem a world that throws challenges at peoples understanding of the nature of perception. it is not an easy thing to do... but then maybe it is the little snow ball the simple story these are not tough to do, we tell stories make posters and toss a little discord around, it may just be a matter of time till something we do happens at the right time and place to escalate in the way we desire, it may be a matter of practice and study to begin to recognize that right time and place. 
   

I like the original post, but I don't like where the discussion is leading.  Firstly, on the subject of the DVD that says "Imagine this was a bomb."  This is a terrible idea.  It wastes time and resources and ultimately only serves to piss people off or terrify them.  This is the essence of the "System" that it is supposed to be undermining.  It won't memebomb anyone, it won't wake anyone up, it'll just get them to villify whatever it's supposed to be introducing them to.  One of my favorite aspects of the PD is that it doesn't take itself too seriously even as it introduces serious ideas - the mention of the word bomb is very very serious, even if it might be funny to some to watch the ensuing confusion.  I responded to a bomb threat at one point, and while the word "scary" didn't run through my head, neither did the word "funny" (which leaves out horrormirth).  My reaction was more akin to frustration, and I'm someone who rarely takes things seriously.

I think a children's book is a great idea, as well as a reimagining of the PD.  Crucial to both of these will be maintaining the tone of relative levity, the lack of which is my principle critique against BIP (no offense to the contributors, who clearly have a more thorough understanding of this than me).  Subtly hinting at key ideas rather than overtly stating them would be the way to go here.

I propose a mainstream exposure, but not an evangelical one.  Why not make Discordianism MORE secretive, give it an almost secret society reputation, one that everyone knows exists but isn't sure why (think Freemasons, Skull and Bones).  If you go around saying "We want you to join us" people will say "why should I?" whereas if you say "we're here, but we only want some of you to join us" people will say "ME FIRST."  Then we can only actually be selective and private for appearances.  It will also attract the more ambitious recruits who are willing to learn of their own accord rather than have a pretty heavy set of ideas force fed to them.  This allows for Discordianism to be private and decentralized as many here wish it to remain, all it does is say "Shh.  It's a secret."

But what about one of the central tenets of the Principia, that everyone who reads it is a pope and people are free to do with it what they like?  Well, we're doing with it what we like in just one cabal.  Once people are interested and in our cabal, we can make it perfectly clear they're free to create their own, etc.  Remember, it's the appearance of secrecy that's important, the implied conspiracy to put it in Vex's terms.

So I think one comprehensive, intuitively designed website would be all that's necessary for the bulk of this.  After that, viral marketing towards that website in the form of, say, putting note cards in mailboxes with the golden apple and "To the prettiest one - www.ourwebsite.com."

Great post, for the record.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 27, 2008, 05:15:07 PMWhy not make Discordianism MORE secretive, give it an almost secret society reputation, one that everyone knows exists but isn't sure why (think Freemasons, Skull and Bones).  If you go around saying "We want you to join us" people will say "why should I?" whereas if you say "we're here, but we only want some of you to join us" people will say "ME FIRST." 

I like this.  I can imagine it being much more effective.

Cults try to draw people in, the groups with actual functioning material that works for people don't need to. 

If membership is what we're after there are a number of things that need to be considered. First, what are the members for? If they're just people we want to be around, that's fine, but that's all there may be to it. If they are supposed to fill some useful task that requires a larger number of people, then they need to be evaluated according to more criteria than simply whether we like them or not. In some cases, people we have absolutely no use for otherwise could serve well.

In terms of membership, Discordianism lends itself well to the inner/outer circle thing. This is something that's been discussed here before. I think there is a place for the mindless Fnorders (not that all Fnorders are mindless) as the 'foot soldiers' of Discordia, as well as a place for more substantial minds.

The model in use at PD is actually pretty damn good. Our membership grows and we accumulate worthwhile people, if not quickly, at least reliably. If we could take the way we bring people on board and expand it beyond this forum somehow, we'd be on track I think.

The problem is in getting anywhere without turning the Discordia into a formal 'organization.'

I like the OP, a lot.

I think however, the focus should be on the first critique in the post, that of identity/coherent vision.

There is already one coherent vision...that of what many of us like to think of the early Discordian movement, in particular the Pinealists.  We have our own culture here, of course, but it has not spread far?  Why not?  Because people act in predictable and knee-jerk ways when people think you are sneering at them.  If they feel ridiculed or put upon, most likely they will act even more that way in order to piss you off.

Also, groups with two identifiable camps quickly become both stable and boring.  For more, see: Cold War, American Politics.  A third element is required to both spice things up and have a creative mix.

How does such an identity arise?  Well, you can leave such things to chance...but why be so risky?  Production of values and schemas is a far more effective way to go about it.  As I recall, the original PD06 project, which the BIP was born out of, was an attempt to take all sort of themes associated with the PD and repackage them in modern garb.  We were wildly successful with the BIP, which was of course in many ways an expansion of the Law of Fives.

We stopped at the BIP, which in hindsight was lacking in vision.

But what to Discordians, or indeed any other sort of countercultural type resonate with now?  Both within such books as the PD, the Book of the Subgenius etc and also outside of those circles?  Its an Empire of Signs out there, and we have to be able to effectively attract and communicate with our own if we hope to get anywhere.  And that means building up a whole new vocubulary of metaphors and symbols which people like us will want to use, and want to have as conceptual tools.

We would need to identify such potential Discordian concepts (for want of a better way of expressing it), and produce media relating to ALL of them.  And then propagate it has hard as possible, preferably through such methods as the GASMs are advertised, in addition to through previously unused channels, like forums, blogs, more usual propaganda venues, etc.

The work however will come in compiling the Master List, the metasymbological reference system we intend to use to come up with this manufacture of identity.

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on November 27, 2008, 05:15:07 PM
I like the original post, but I don't like where the discussion is leading.  Firstly, on the subject of the DVD that says "Imagine this was a bomb."  This is a terrible idea.  It wastes time and resources and ultimately only serves to piss people off or terrify them.  This is the essence of the "System" that it is supposed to be undermining.  It won't memebomb anyone, it won't wake anyone up, it'll just get them to villify whatever it's supposed to be introducing them to.  One of my favorite aspects of the PD is that it doesn't take itself too seriously even as it introduces serious ideas - the mention of the word bomb is very very serious, even if it might be funny to some to watch the ensuing confusion.  I responded to a bomb threat at one point, and while the word "scary" didn't run through my head, neither did the word "funny" (which leaves out horrormirth).  My reaction was more akin to frustration, and I'm someone who rarely takes things seriously.

I think a children's book is a great idea, as well as a reimagining of the PD.  Crucial to both of these will be maintaining the tone of relative levity, the lack of which is my principle critique against BIP (no offense to the contributors, who clearly have a more thorough understanding of this than me).  Subtly hinting at key ideas rather than overtly stating them would be the way to go here.

I propose a mainstream exposure, but not an evangelical one.  Why not make Discordianism MORE secretive, give it an almost secret society reputation, one that everyone knows exists but isn't sure why (think Freemasons, Skull and Bones).  If you go around saying "We want you to join us" people will say "why should I?" whereas if you say "we're here, but we only want some of you to join us" people will say "ME FIRST."  Then we can only actually be selective and private for appearances.  It will also attract the more ambitious recruits who are willing to learn of their own accord rather than have a pretty heavy set of ideas force fed to them.  This allows for Discordianism to be private and decentralized as many here wish it to remain, all it does is say "Shh.  It's a secret."

But what about one of the central tenets of the Principia, that everyone who reads it is a pope and people are free to do with it what they like?  Well, we're doing with it what we like in just one cabal.  Once people are interested and in our cabal, we can make it perfectly clear they're free to create their own, etc.  Remember, it's the appearance of secrecy that's important, the implied conspiracy to put it in Vex's terms.

So I think one comprehensive, intuitively designed website would be all that's necessary for the bulk of this.  After that, viral marketing towards that website in the form of, say, putting note cards in mailboxes with the golden apple and "To the prettiest one - www.ourwebsite.com."

Great post, for the record.

:mittens:

Also, for the record, I have to say that I am less interested in seeing new projects of grand scope started, then in seeing older projects finished. We have a gorgeous new homepage that just needs to be polished up and installed, we have a really nice blog that needs more contributors, and to be linked to and promoted, and we have the Etcetera Discordia just waiting to be published... I think we can't expect to make an impression with new projects if we can't finish any of them.

I am not criticizing anyone for the incomplete projects; it takes a lot of work, coordination, and most of all time. I'm just saying I'm not sure we need NEW projects as much as we need time, inspiration, and energy to finish old ones.

I don't think 'new' projects are the way to go, either. We need to start seeing the ongoing projects that we already have (GASMs, etc) as tools, and come up with an larger framework to use those tools. I think our problem isn't that we don't have enough projects, but that we have all these projects that are all unrelated. If we could manage to get some correlation between all these projects, that alone might be enough to drive more curiosity. If not, it's at least a good place to start.

But aren't they all related if they have Discordian as their core?  That's like saying all books about Batman by different authors are unrelated.  It doesn't jive.

Yes, they're related, but they lack a certain cohesion. I really think the one thing our activities lack more than anything else is a basic level of coordination. Even small MFs, if they happen simultaneously in multiple places, get picked up and examined far better than if they're isolated.

I think that all of these projects can be tied together through our homepage and our blog. I wish I was more technically savvy, so I could help with it... I know the people working on it already have a lot on their plates.

     The key really is organization and persistence to execution.

     I don't think crystallizing an "identity" is possible OR remotely necessary.

     If we're assuming the "Discordianism" in question is essentially those people comprising this board, I say:

     1) It is in fact the vague "core" of "P.D" bringing all the VERY DIFFERENT viewpoints/ works here. There's no comparison between Cram's prank obsessions with Cain's 'politiks' obsession, for instance, but it gives the CURRENT "P.D." it's definition & dimension.

      2) Discordian-ism will always change & evolve, but what the focus HERE is THIS VERY IMMEDIATE MOVEMENT. What it is, how it continues the "spirit" of Discordianism.

     Really, if someone from this board got media attention RIGHT NOW, (which related to discordianism) - which brought focus to this board, what would people find here which would be lasting or defining?

      Firstly, this board needs to be representing accomplished act more currently. Where for instance, is the easy link to Cram's youtube rants?

     Secondly, Just do more. Seriously. A magazine/ print work? Sure, but just DO IT and those very real efforts CONSTITUTE something worth drawing attention.

     With more organization, hold events, put out product, don't worry about the cult aspect. Every person who gets turned on to the "P.D" walks away with their own personal p.d. But until graspable images labelled with "P.D" are in people's sphere, it's just here, on this board.

     PRODUCT & PUSH IT.

     

I'm really liking the entire content of this thread.  Many good points, ideas, yadda yadda.

Some recurring themes I see here are those of becoming more vocal yet not preachy, more visible yet not "in the spotlight," so to speak.  It is possible, though perhaps with some caution.

Unless my perceptions are naive and/or way off, some eastern philosophies (Dao comes to mind) seem to walk the balance very well, for the most part.

It's not simply a matter of saying the right things, but of saying the right things in just the right way, at just the right time, at just the right place.

I really think the most major weakness we are facing is the lack of an easily accessible clearinghouse for Discordian works, and that the easy, efficient means for creating that is to implement 000's kick-ass homepage design, with links to the blog, and to other recent awesome projects like Cram's Youtube and any other works that have been assembled in the last year or so.

Quote from: OPTIMUS PINECONE on November 28, 2008, 01:09:44 AM
     The key really is organization and persistence to execution.

     I don't think crystallizing an "identity" is possible OR remotely necessary.

     If we're assuming the "Discordianism" in question is essentially those people comprising this board, I say:

     1) It is in fact the vague "core" of "P.D" bringing all the VERY DIFFERENT viewpoints/ works here. There's no comparison between Cram's prank obsessions with Cain's 'politiks' obsession, for instance, but it gives the CURRENT "P.D." it's definition & dimension.

      2) Discordian-ism will always change & evolve, but what the focus HERE is THIS VERY IMMEDIATE MOVEMENT. What it is, how it continues the "spirit" of Discordianism.

     Really, if someone from this board got media attention RIGHT NOW, (which related to discordianism) - which brought focus to this board, what would people find here which would be lasting or defining?

      Firstly, this board needs to be representing accomplished act more currently. Where for instance, is the easy link to Cram's youtube rants?

     Secondly, Just do more. Seriously. A magazine/ print work? Sure, but just DO IT and those very real efforts CONSTITUTE something worth drawing attention.

     With more organization, hold events, put out product, don't worry about the cult aspect. Every person who gets turned on to the "P.D" walks away with their own personal p.d. But until graspable images labelled with "P.D" are in people's sphere, it's just here, on this board.

     PRODUCT & PUSH IT.

     

To be honest, I don't see too much difference from what you and me are saying.  I am dead set against a single Discordian identity (Indeed, many of my critical rants here re; Discordianism have been about attempts to codify Discordianism - usually by the hippie/blissninny/pagan/pineal brigade, but still...).

What I was hoping was to help produce many different strands within Discordianism and a wider, related culture, by focusing on those particular strands and creating media related to them, then propagating it via the GASMs and this site, as Nigel mentioned, as a clearinghouse for such material.

So for example, I could work on spreading Discordian themes through political arenas of discourse, and relating current events back to Discordian ideas. Cram could do similar work with the pranking networks that have sprung up.  Both of us are actually attempting something like this with the ARG we are working on.

People come to relate what they like and enjoy within a Discordian theme or flavour.  They bring their own interests to the table, but expressed and packaged by us in such a way that they are somehow inter-relating with Discordianism as a whole.

That last sentence sucked, but I think its meaning is implicit via the rest of the post.

I'm going to put a couple of cards on the table.

1. I simply do not have the patience to refrain from starting new projects every few weeks. As many of you have noticed, I get hooked on an idea and it becomes my all consuming drive to keep making it bigger until I eventually lose control of it. (which is the goal) I feel that a Discordian Society which is not engaged in activitism  (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Activitist) is just masturbating with religion. Not that this is bad mind you, but I find it terribly boring. If I were the pope of Discordia, I'd declare that Discordia is about DOING SHIT, and that to be a good Discordian you have to GO DO SHIT.

1a. The projects I find most fun are the biggest ones, the ones that get the most attention, the ones that actually seemed to engage a greater system. When the Adam Weishaupt Society's fake news was dissected by big name bloggers, when Stephen Colbert winked at us and said 23 Skidoo - those were the moments when I said, "hey, this machine actually works AND IT KICKS ASS. I wonder what else it can do?"


2. Some of the most fun projects require participation, and frankly, getting people to participate through this thing called the Internet is difficult. Most people are very passively engaged by it. Effecting their real life through a text medium is challenging. The only reliable way to start bigger projects is to get more monkeys hammering at their keyboards and obsessing over our ideas. I am not content just waiting for cool people to find our forum and then seeing if they survive the social selection process. I am also not going to start going door to door with pamphlets, or preaching the STRANGE WORD from soapbox*, so we're kind of at an impasse.




I am in full agreement that starting a list of our projects and hosting that on the front page will help redesign our internal machines to focus on those things.





*any more than just being a "good discordian" and having fun is an advertisement for others to do the same

Quote from: Cramulus on November 28, 2008, 03:14:54 PM
1. I simply do not have the patience to refrain from starting new projects every few weeks. As many of you have noticed, I get hooked on an idea and it becomes my all consuming drive to keep making it bigger until I eventually lose control of it. (which is the goal) I feel that a Discordian Society which is not engaged in activitism  (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Activitist) is just masturbating with religion. Not that this is bad mind you, but I find it terribly boring. If I were the pope of Discordia, I'd declare that Discordia is about DOING SHIT, and that to be a good Discordian you have to GO DO SHIT.

Wow.  I find this paragraph very disturbing.

Exactly where does it say that to be Discordian you have to be an activist?  Seriously.


I really can't put into words how shocked and disgruntled this has made me.  Well, at least I know now.

 :lulz: I find it disturbing that you credit me with any authority. I'm talking about MY Discordia, which I am the pope of. If you don't like doing fun projects, bully for you.

and please read the definition I linked of "Activitism". I think you're confusing it with activism. There's an extra tit in there.


I am by no means encouraging people to go find a cause (or some other baggage) to masturbate with.

Quote from: Cramulus on November 28, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
:lulz: I find it disturbing that you credit me with any authority. I'm talking about MY Discordia, which I am the pope of. If you don't like doing fun projects, bully for you.

and please read the definition I linked of "Activitism". I think you're confusing it with activism. There's an extra tit in there.


I am by no means encouraging people to go find a cause (or some other baggage) to masturbate with.

Not so much 'authority' as now I have this view of what you think of me if I am not participating in activism (I will check that link on my lunch today, BTW).  I respect you opinion, and this information forces me to wonder how much you can respect me if I am not 'out there doing something'...

I never said I wasn't paranoid.

I'll tell you what works for me -- Cram and I briefly had a discussion earlier this week where I said I was giving up contributing to anything for the foreseeable future because I'd run out of creative energy. I've had a writer's block for a long time and no ambition, I was getting jaded and just falling into a "who cares" mindset.

What got me moving this week wasn't anybody pleading with me not to give up or listing reasons why I should keep trying, and that wouldn't have worked anyway. What got me going was that I saw Bones' Καλλίστη video (http://www.vimeo.com/2287125) and it got me thinking about what Discordia could be. It could be a shadowy, undefined presence that nobody can easily recognize - more than a bunch of goofballs, more than just another culture-jamming circlejerk. We could easily give the illusion that we are much more than the sum of our parts, especially using the media.

And, as for "Activism," I think Cram wasn't referring to holding protests and all the other ineffective, boring shit that "activists" do, but more along the lines of forcing "reality" to capitulate to the demands of a determined group. Or something.

Quote from: BAWHEED on November 28, 2008, 03:32:59 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on November 28, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
:lulz: I find it disturbing that you credit me with any authority. I'm talking about MY Discordia, which I am the pope of. If you don't like doing fun projects, bully for you.

and please read the definition I linked of "Activitism". I think you're confusing it with activism. There's an extra tit in there.


I am by no means encouraging people to go find a cause (or some other baggage) to masturbate with.

Not so much 'authority' as now I have this view of what you think of me if I am not participating in activism (I will check that link on my lunch today, BTW).  I respect you opinion, and this information forces me to wonder how much you can respect me if I am not 'out there doing something'...

I never said I wasn't paranoid.

no no no, I'm not saying that people suck if they don't do activities. I'm just saying that THAT's what I'm into, and activitists are the specific people that I want on my team. People who are content just reading about Discordia do not make good playmates. As I said, if that's your thing, keep doing it (whatever it is), but it's not for me.

If I find anything disturbing, it's how ghastly your reaction to my prattle has been, and how paranoid it seems to be making you, especially since I haven't said anything at all judgmental.

You also said ACTIVISM again, which I have repeatedly clarified I am not talking about. ACTIVITISM is a word I made up, and the definition will take five seconds to read, so you could probably squeeze that in before lunch break :p

I did not notice the difference in spelling at all, my apologies.  I read the definition and see that I jumped the gun there, my apologies again.

I took it personally I guess because some part of me doesn't feel like I'm doing enough lately.  It was less about you and more about me.  Again, I apologize.

This has made me questions my beliefs and motives more than anything else has for quite a while, so I thank you heartily Cram.  I am going to give this a lot of thought over the weekend.

 :mrgreen: it's all good, hoops

I think Cram might be referencing the same concept as the Legion of Dynamic Discord (LDD)... those who "actively" go cause Discord, vs the Legion of Static Discord (LSD) which are the people that sit around and watch the Discord while saying "Woha Man, I just flashed on something."

:lulz:

Also, I like this conversation. It has given me pause.

I have friends in the theater scene. Here in Columbus, at least, "theater scene" often seems like  shorthand for "theater geeks that never grew up and instead rent out low budget facilities and desperately try to recapture their college years..." but maybe that's a bit harsh.

Anyway, it seems to me that one could, without too much heavy lifting, turn the BiP into a play...  if it was a funny play, if it was witty, if it was good... it could be freely promoted to groups desperately looking for material, at least here in Columbus. Not a huge audience, to be sure... 50 people a night for two weeks maybe... but if it's 50 people a night in 5 cities for two weeks...

I was thinking about a story like "Story in Five Parts" that I wrote about the BiP. It doesn't mention "Discordia" at all... though the end obviously references Eris... if you know the memes.



Any thoughts?

that's actually a pretty cool idea, Rat.

I'm gonna be a spag and skip the last few pages to interject something that I think is relevant (before I do that, though, mega-mittens to vex for the OP):

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ze_frank_s_nerdcore_comedy.html

It's about 20 minutes long, and the relevant bit doesn't really start until about 14:00, but I still think it's worth examining. In fact, the whole Ze Frank phenomenon is worth examining, IMO.

What he talks about in this video is creating virtual social spaces that create low-threshold, easy-to-interact-with activities and simple, minimalist web toys that let people express their creativity in a way that most modern methods make inaccessible for a lot of people.

While this is not exactly what we're going for, it does have a common vein. That is, how do we get a significant number of people to follow up on our ideas, actualize them, and come up with their own ideas?

Ze Frank managed to do that not only with his web site's little gimmicks, but with the video blog he ran from March 17, 2006 to March 17, 2007. The "Sports Racer" community that quickly grew around it (of which I was a proud member) consisted of hundreds of active members and thousands of passive ones who just liked watching stuff happen. Just look at www.zefrank.org for a summary of the level of activity it generated, though sadly it is no longer active.

Obviously, the biggest difference between Ze Frank and us is that he created something that was, ultimately, centered around him. It grew around his dynamic personality and charisma, and diminished when he stopped producing the show. What we want is something that doesn't necessarily center on any one of us, but creates a similarly dynamic and involved group.

Or so my thinking goes.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 08:35:05 AM
I really think the most major weakness we are facing is the lack of an easily accessible clearinghouse for Discordian works, and that the easy, efficient means for creating that is to implement 000's kick-ass homepage design, with links to the blog, and to other recent awesome projects like Cram's Youtube and any other works that have been assembled in the last year or so.

There is a girl on my campus who decided to google "Hail Eris" after seeing some of my posters (in an attempt to track me down - apparently she was playing internet sleuth after getting back from a CIA internship) and when she eventually confronted me, she said that "there aren't really very many resources on Discordianism."

So I think that that should change.  (I'm not saying that there aren't very many resources on Discordianism, just that someone who went to a small amount of effort should be able to find a reasonable number of things.)

Cain, I agree with you re: single concept of discordianism.  But, at minimum, I want to put my Discordja together in writing for other people to read and pilfer from.  Actually, a book that "defined" discordia a few times and in conflicting ways would be pretty cool too.

Well that would certainly be part of it.  Propagation of the alternatives is something I am entirely for.

     I would like to repeat the general sentiment, That this thread is really groovy.

     Anything I've had to say in response, thus far, has not been a reaction or contrast to any of the ideas or opinions put forth. I appreciate the earnest expressions about creativity happening here and hearing what motivates everyone toward their efforts.

     Equally, whatever I've babbled into the mix I meant sincerely.

     This thread has encouraged between  Nigel and I some of the most in depth, analytical conversations amongst ourselves, related to this board, art & expression in weeks.

In response to Cram I have to point out that you can be actively Discordian in your own life, your own home, with your friends, without ever participating in wacky Discordian group projects, so it's probably not a good idea to assume that people aren't actively living Discordia just because they're not posting it on the Internet.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 08:51:21 PM
In response to Cram I have to point out that you can be actively Discordian in your own life, your own home, with your friends, without ever participating in wacky Discordian group projects, so it's probably not a good idea to assume that people aren't actively living Discordia just because they're not posting it on the Internet.

oh certainly - I didn't assume that

being an awesome activitist does not require that you do "discordian" projects, or that you tell anyone about it. Just actively entertaining yourself is enough.

it's like the meme bomb "If this was a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?" -- activitists are generally the characters.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 08:51:21 PM
In response to Cram I have to point out that you can be actively Discordian in your own life, your own home, with your friends, without ever participating in wacky Discordian group projects, so it's probably not a good idea to assume that people aren't actively living Discordia just because they're not posting it on the Internet.

This is correct motorcycle (ever notice mosbunal motorcycles are single rider things?)

One of the most actively Discordian people I know has never been on this forum and likely will never be on this forum. In fact, having talked to him many times about the cool and interesting stuff here, he shrugs and makes it clear that he thinks this entire idea... posting forums and debating erisology is among the most stupid wastes of time he's ever heard.

Meanwhile, he's pulled off a number of pranks, made all sorts of havoc and discord and nearly gotten arrested 8 times for dancing in parking lots, by himself, after the business that uses the parking lot has closed.

Every time I talk to him, he's in the middle of running somewhere to do something. He doesn't talk about Eris as his goddess, he doesn't say 23PinealFnord even though he's in his 50's and has been a Discordian since the 70's...

I met a lot of Discordians though getting to work with "you know who". Some of them show up here, some show up in other places... but some of the spags that are always doing something for a laugh or a mindfuck... seem to be far too busy doing that stuff, to figure out the whole "Internet thing".

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 28, 2008, 09:02:37 PM

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 08:51:21 PM
In response to Cram I have to point out that you can be actively Discordian in your own life, your own home, with your friends, without ever participating in wacky Discordian group projects, so it's probably not a good idea to assume that people aren't actively living Discordia just because they're not posting it on the Internet.

This is correct motorcycle (ever notice mosbunal motorcycles are single rider things?)

One of the most actively Discordian people I know has never been on this forum and likely will never be on this forum. In fact, having talked to him many times about the cool and interesting stuff here, he shrugs and makes it clear that he thinks this entire idea... posting forums and debating erisology is among the most stupid wastes of time he's ever heard.

Meanwhile, he's pulled off a number of pranks, made all sorts of havoc and discord and nearly gotten arrested 8 times for dancing in parking lots, by himself, after the business that uses the parking lot has closed.

Every time I talk to him, he's in the middle of running somewhere to do something. He doesn't talk about Eris as his goddess, he doesn't say 23PinealFnord even though he's in his 50's and has been a Discordian since the 70's...

I met a lot of Discordians though getting to work with "you know who". Some of them show up here, some show up in other places... but some of the spags that are always doing something for a laugh or a mindfuck... seem to be far too busy doing that stuff, to figure out the whole "Internet thing".

That's great, but again, the "Internet Thing" is hardly just a passing fad anymore. It is the new medium of human communication. It is rapidly supplanting books and newspapers as most people's source of raw information. And beyond all that, it is a two-way communication medium that allows not only for endless mental masturbation sessions among people but for coordination and planning.

I won't disparage your Discordian friends or claim that they're not being "properly" Discordian, but I think the time is ripe for those Discordians who think like I do to take this machine to the next level and start collaborating, whether it's on art, expression, media, or pranks. There's a world of opportunity afforded movements like ours by the Internet and newer forms of media. I can't say it's the only Discordian thing to do, because it isn't. But it's a possibility that I would like to explore in more depth, and hopefully others do too.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 09:20:06 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 28, 2008, 09:02:37 PM

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 08:51:21 PM
In response to Cram I have to point out that you can be actively Discordian in your own life, your own home, with your friends, without ever participating in wacky Discordian group projects, so it's probably not a good idea to assume that people aren't actively living Discordia just because they're not posting it on the Internet.

This is correct motorcycle (ever notice mosbunal motorcycles are single rider things?)

One of the most actively Discordian people I know has never been on this forum and likely will never be on this forum. In fact, having talked to him many times about the cool and interesting stuff here, he shrugs and makes it clear that he thinks this entire idea... posting forums and debating erisology is among the most stupid wastes of time he's ever heard.

Meanwhile, he's pulled off a number of pranks, made all sorts of havoc and discord and nearly gotten arrested 8 times for dancing in parking lots, by himself, after the business that uses the parking lot has closed.

Every time I talk to him, he's in the middle of running somewhere to do something. He doesn't talk about Eris as his goddess, he doesn't say 23PinealFnord even though he's in his 50's and has been a Discordian since the 70's...

I met a lot of Discordians though getting to work with "you know who". Some of them show up here, some show up in other places... but some of the spags that are always doing something for a laugh or a mindfuck... seem to be far too busy doing that stuff, to figure out the whole "Internet thing".

That's great, but again, the "Internet Thing" is hardly just a passing fad anymore. It is the new medium of human communication. It is rapidly supplanting books and newspapers as most people's source of raw information. And beyond all that, it is a two-way communication medium that allows not only for endless mental masturbation sessions among people but for coordination and planning.

I won't disparage your Discordian friends or claim that they're not being "properly" Discordian, but I think the time is ripe for those Discordians who think like I do to take this machine to the next level and start collaborating, whether it's on art, expression, media, or pranks. There's a world of opportunity afforded movements like ours by the Internet and newer forms of media. I can't say it's the only Discordian thing to do, because it isn't. But it's a possibility that I would like to explore in more depth, and hopefully others do too.

Oh don't get me wrong, I have been on the 'net since... well since before the WWW existed. I absolutely think it is the future of communication, I thought that when I was some poor conservative Christian redneck kid living on the backside of a hill in Ohio... a bazillion miles away from knowledge and information... unless it was knowledge and information about God, Horses, Cows or Pottery.

I think the Discordians that shun the net are idiots, at least in that regard.

My only point in mentioning them is that we often forget that 'The Discordian Society' isn't just the spags here, or here and at 23ae or MySpace etc.

I've also noticed an almost elitist view among a lot of the really old school Discordians and SubG's that I've run into. Some of them dismiss Discordians from online, because they compare "insert prank that they and their 3 friends pulled" with "insert *GASM" and they say we're lazy, got off on something simple and easy and spent far too much time patting ourselves on the back, rather than actually "getting our asses off our keyboards".

Sometimes, I think that argument would have sounded like Scribes getting on Gutenberg... "We wrote five different manuscripts today and illustrated them with beautiful art... while you dumb spags just printed off 100 pages that all said the same damn thing... and there was not pretty pictures on the side."

;-)

RAW not only recognized the importance of the net, but spent his final years coming up with ways to promote new ideas via the net.

Hell, he even did Tarot Readings via eBay. :lulz:

It would be nice if they at least contributed to online collections of mindfucks and pranks, to share their ideas and methods with other audiences (and in return get feedback on them and have new ideas come their way as well).  When I'm feeling uninspired, I trawl the Urban Prankster Collective for ideas, or Joey Skagg's Prank.com, for example.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 09:20:06 PM
That's great, but again, the "Internet Thing" is hardly just a passing fad anymore. It is the new medium of human communication. It is rapidly supplanting books and newspapers as most people's source of raw information. And beyond all that, it is a two-way communication medium that allows not only for endless mental masturbation sessions among people but for coordination and planning.

Sure, but not everyone is online, and of those who are only a relatively small percentage are into forums. You can reach a relative few by posting on this forum, but everybody else is also out there doin' it right in their own way.

It really bothers me when people try to eliminate the "discord" part of "Discordian". Not that it's applicable to this thread necessarily, but, you know, Parable of Steve and all that.

Quote from: Cain on November 28, 2008, 09:58:02 PM
It would be nice if they at least contributed to online collections of mindfucks and pranks, to share their ideas and methods with other audiences (and in return get feedback on them and have new ideas come their way as well).  When I'm feeling uninspired, I trawl the Urban Prankster Collective for ideas, or Joey Skagg's Prank.com, for example.

Yeah, I know... though it seems like they don't plan pranks in the Skaggs sense... they seem more like incidental pranksters. If they get inspired, they act. Often rashly. One grocery store kicked Sjaantze's dad out, because he was dancing to the Muzak in the aisles... so he and four friends returned (he worse glasses and a mustache) and proceeded to hold bowling tournaments in the aisles, complete with promotional signs. They used various stuff from the shelves as pins and balls.

As they were being escorted out, Dave removed the glasses and fake mustache and said to the manager "Bet, you'd have preferred me dancing, while I shopped, huh?"

In general, that's the sort of thing they do. I think its one of the contributing factors to my view that guys like Skaggs seem to be taking themselves and their pranks way too seriously.

On the other hand, I think they'd be a great inspirational resource... if they'd get over their egotistical opinion of 'kids these days'.

Yet further... I doubt that any single one of them would ever get past 50 posts. LOL  :lulz:

They've read random entries from the Cthulhu Encyclopedia into my voice mail for no reason whatsoever... what sort of things they would type on an internet forum... I have no idea.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 10:03:27 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 09:20:06 PM
That's great, but again, the "Internet Thing" is hardly just a passing fad anymore. It is the new medium of human communication. It is rapidly supplanting books and newspapers as most people's source of raw information. And beyond all that, it is a two-way communication medium that allows not only for endless mental masturbation sessions among people but for coordination and planning.

Sure, but not everyone is online, and of those who are only a relatively small percentage are into forums. You can reach a relative few by posting on this forum, but everybody else is also out there doin' it right in their own way.

Right... but I wasn't talking about "forums" specifically. I mean the Internet in general.

Here's an exercise: For our next trick, let's make it so that nobody can spend more than five days on the Internet without hearing something about Discordianism from somewhere.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 10:58:59 PM

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 10:03:27 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 09:20:06 PM
That's great, but again, the "Internet Thing" is hardly just a passing fad anymore. It is the new medium of human communication. It is rapidly supplanting books and newspapers as most people's source of raw information. And beyond all that, it is a two-way communication medium that allows not only for endless mental masturbation sessions among people but for coordination and planning.

Sure, but not everyone is online, and of those who are only a relatively small percentage are into forums. You can reach a relative few by posting on this forum, but everybody else is also out there doin' it right in their own way.

Right... but I wasn't talking about "forums" specifically. I mean the Internet in general.

Here's an exercise: For our next trick, let's make it so that nobody can spend more than five days on the Internet without hearing something about Discordianism from somewhere.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 10:03:27 PM
Sure, but not everyone is online

Good luck saturating the Internet with Discordian references though... it may be bigger than you think...  :lulz:

May I ask what the perceived benefit is to popularizing Discordianism?

I mean, if that's what it's all about, Pinecone just had the idea that if we each posted a bunch of Youtube videos, we'd probably hit a pretty decent slice of the Internet population.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 11:42:03 PM
May I ask what the perceived benefit is to popularizing Discordianism?

I mean, if that's what it's all about, Pinecone just had the idea that if we each posted a bunch of Youtube videos, we'd probably hit a pretty decent slice of the Internet population.

Type Discordia into Youtube...


:asplode:

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 11:38:37 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 10:58:59 PM

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 10:03:27 PM

Quote from: vexati0n on November 28, 2008, 09:20:06 PM
That's great, but again, the "Internet Thing" is hardly just a passing fad anymore. It is the new medium of human communication. It is rapidly supplanting books and newspapers as most people's source of raw information. And beyond all that, it is a two-way communication medium that allows not only for endless mental masturbation sessions among people but for coordination and planning.

Sure, but not everyone is online, and of those who are only a relatively small percentage are into forums. You can reach a relative few by posting on this forum, but everybody else is also out there doin' it right in their own way.

Right... but I wasn't talking about "forums" specifically. I mean the Internet in general.

Here's an exercise: For our next trick, let's make it so that nobody can spend more than five days on the Internet without hearing something about Discordianism from somewhere.

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 10:03:27 PM
Sure, but not everyone is online

Good luck saturating the Internet with Discordian references though... it may be bigger than you think...  :lulz:

     For the record VEX, I thought this
Here's an exercise: For our next trick, let's make it so that nobody can spend more than five days on the Internet without hearing something about Discordianism from somewhere.

     was a really good example, of what I perceived to be more or less the point of your O.P. If we research hypothetically, the top five most played youtube clips, submitted (somehow) labeled "discordian" versions (whatever that means) thus, inevitably resulting in people stumbling across the 'phenomena' of "discordian-ism", I thought this was (just one) example of what you were getting at.

     WARNING: THIS PRODUCT NOT MEANT TO BE CONSUMED.

the advantage in popularizing discordianism is along these lines...

- more people are aware of discordianism,
- more people try to find out more,
- more people want in on the fun,
- more people are available for operations, and
- the operations themselves have a higher chance for success and have a higher visibility.

i guess i'm not being very clear with my direction, and that's probably because i haven't really thought it out very well myself. i'll probably have to come up with another rant to answer the "Why?"

http://www.youtube.com/user/ErisDiscordiana

Quote from: Cramulus on November 28, 2008, 08:56:51 PM

it's like the meme bomb "If this was a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?" -- activitists are generally the characters.

This reminds me of the Situationist International, in fact the whole topic does in a way. The Situationist International were a French art/ activist group around mainly in the 60's. Their most famous work "The Society of the Spectacle" viewed people as either 'actors' or 'spectators' and that society was geared to keep people spectating, rather than participating. To join the Situationist International, you had to contribute to their theory and because of this they never had more than a couple of dozen members, yet their influence was massive. Cram's quote above is just a re-formulation of their most famous meme, which is widely accepted these days by a lot of people, many of which havent even heard of Situationism.

The main reason Im bringing them up is that they demonstrated that you don't need a lot of people to get a lot done. Another reason is there is something in Eater of Clowns's idea of appearing to be secretive and exclusive. Of course things like the Pope Cards cut across this, so I am not sure how applicable it could be. For me, getting the ideas of Discordianism out there is more important than people knowing the name.

A really high quality gag could raise our profile, the problem being, that it needs to be a really good mindfuck for the media to pick it up.

Another way could be to pick a Discordian Holy day and try to get as many people involved in stunts as possible, everywhere. If it was left to me, April 1 would be a good day because it is the day of pranks, it would be easier to get people involved. The downside being, the message could just get lost in the April Fools madness. This would rely more on the quantity of pranks rather than the quality.

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 29, 2008, 12:07:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/user/ErisDiscordiana

     Thanks for sharing RAT. I was more (and, "as an example") brainfarting to Nigel about what I thought VEX was getting at. What I was emphasizing to her was more along the lines of, everyone who youtube's "FAMILY GUY" comes across "DISCORIA(AN)", etc.

Quote from: Ratatosk on November 29, 2008, 12:01:04 AM

Quote from: Nigel on November 28, 2008, 11:42:03 PM
May I ask what the perceived benefit is to popularizing Discordianism?

I mean, if that's what it's all about, Pinecone just had the idea that if we each posted a bunch of Youtube videos, we'd probably hit a pretty decent slice of the Internet population.

Type Discordia into Youtube...


:asplode:

Right, of course you can find it if you're looking for it.

When Pinecone made the suggestion, what sprang to my mind was a bunch of videos that people would find when they weren't looking for Discordia. Video replies or parodies of the top five most popular videos, for instance.

Quote from: OPTIMUS PINECONE on November 29, 2008, 12:01:39 AM
     was a really good example, of what I perceived to be more or less the point of your O.P. If we research hypothetically, the top five most played youtube clips, submitted (somehow) labeled "discordian" versions (whatever that means) thus, inevitably resulting in people stumbling across the 'phenomena' of "discordian-ism", I thought this was (just one) example of what you were getting at.

     WARNING: THIS PRODUCT NOT MEANT TO BE CONSUMED.

Oh look, you already said what I just said.

not sure how well this fits with the direction of this thread but it occurred to me the trolling of other sites may be useful to incorporate. troll a site burn the chafe recruit the willing and when possible wrestle control , essentially turning any suitable site into a discordian cabal (pastafarianisum should be a discordian cabal for screwing with the teaching of creationism). the church of google trolls being an example of the type of trolling that could be used to create a larger more diverse/interconnected discordia.

Quote from: vexati0n on November 26, 2008, 09:01:42 PM
It strikes me that with the wealth of skill and talent at our disposal, we should be making a much, much bigger splash than we are. This community is unique in that almost each of us is good at something and capable of learning how to be good at other things. We are creative, we have quite impressive rhetorical and media skills, and I don't think I'm really exaggerating when I say that if an advertising company had a pool as technically and creatively competent as this, it would have a marked advantage in the industry of making people believe stupid things.

So what is holding us back? We have the talent, the skills, and the ideas to make waves, but I don't think we are living up to our potential. So, in this post, I'll set out my sincere and constructive criticisms of the Discordian Society in general, and the PDCOM community in particular.


1. Lack of Identity

For all the energy we spend trying to make sure we're not getting stuck in dogmatism or typecasting the Discordian movement, it's ironic just how predictable and dogmatic we've become. Instead of saying FNORD or spouting 23 every ten seconds, we're laughing at FNORDs and 23s every ten seconds.

Discordia doesn't need a definition, but it needs a culture. As varied as Discordians are in our personal lives, we need cultural landmarks we can relate to and point to in order to communicate Discordian ideas that have no easy analogies in normal communication.

We shouldn't overhaul everything to be a carbon copy of the PD, but we need to recognize the cultural significance of those aspects of Discordia, and be able use them constructively without belittling each other.

Internally, we need to be able to communicate with a standard vocabulary and be able to recognize -- and accept -- one another quickly and efficiently.


2. Lack of Vision

We've got distaste for the Status Quo down to a science around here, and most of us aren't lacking in a general nonspecific desire to change things whether on a large scale or just locally. Many of us have taken to the streets in furtherance of various GASMs, so I don't think we lack motivation, dedication, or determination.

But we are, generally speaking, easily jaded and thoroughly cynical. We tend to think larger goals are either unacheivable or pointless. Either the task is too hard or it's too inconsequential; it's either impossible to change the world or such change is meaningless because it is corruptible.

This is complete horse shit, even if it is true. Of course any change we can make is corruptible. That's why we're HERE, because an idea that started out promising and new has become an entrenched, corrupted, stale, sour, and rotten System. That's why ten or ten thousand years from now, someone will be around to get rid of OUR stupid ideas.

The Discordian Community itself has become corrupt. Maybe it hasn't been mass-marketed or pre-packaged yet, but we have been sold out for some time on the idea that the ultimate goal of a philosophical revolution should be a static Utopia where everything is perfect.

History is not driven by periods of calm stability, but by tumultuous sequences of upheaval and cultural wreckage. It is only after the established order is demolished that a better order can be established.

Discordians, I fear, are sometimes worried about what would happen if we DID ultimately bring down the entire System. We are concerned about what we would do after that. But it isn't our job to put the pieces back together, it's our job to tear them apart.

Discordia isn't about being there, it's about GETTING there. That's the function of the Discordian Society.

So I think the first issue we need to address is, what exactly do we think we're trying to do? And the answer to that is, we're not bringing about the New Order, we're just getting rid of the OLD one.


3. Lack of Perspective

Today's world is far from the 1960's when Discordia was really born. Now, while people might read a flyer or a pamphlet, they won't spend much time reflecting on it. People don't spend much time reflecting on anything, and that's a problem for the bulk of Discordian materials.

These days everything is about image and convenience. People are hyper-stimulated and hyper-informed on everything, which means a simple analysis or question about reality or a person's assumptions will fade quickly into background noise.

And it would seem that there are entire denominations of Discordia devoted to complaining about that. But that's the way it is, and as with other social norms, it isn't in our best interest to wish it wasn't true. We need to engage our creativity and adapt. Discordia is, philosophically, still light-years ahead of the curve. But in practice, we are far too slow at changing with the times.

I think we also need a slight shift in our ideas about what constitutes a successful conspiracy. In the world of up-to-the-minute Media coverage of everything from war to fake penis enlargement, a fast headline will always outweigh a slow expose' in terms of perceived importance.

Discordia doesn't need to be a vast, well-planned, or very cohesive network in order to LOOK like that's what it is. We aren't really in the business of conspiracy anyway (we can leave that to the douchebags in the AISB). All we should be interested in is getting other people looking for the conspiracy that we aren't.

My suggestion here is to focus not on building a conspiracy that should exist, but on putting out CLUES to a conspiracy that doesn't exist at all. It would be infinitely easier to hoax a conspiracy than it would be to build one. And since it isn't really our job to manage expectations or guide people to the "truth," I say we just invent a bunch of apparently correlated evidence that is actually linked by nothing at all. If nothing else, it could provide endless lulz as we turn the Pinks into the conspiracy theorists and teach them about the Law of Fives the hard way.


I think that's about all I had at the moment in the way of criticism. I'm trying to offer some actual suggestions as well as bitching, though, so if you think I missed something please point it out.

vex,

This is a truly great critique. It exposes many of the saggy bits on the Discordian physique with both insightfulness and care.

As a critique of your critique, though, I would like to say that I am wary of the desire to make a "big splash." The outward, social amelioration focus of modern Discordia is a wonderful evolution of the irreligion's original navel-gazing, but I think devoting our efforts principally towards making ourselves known can become dangerous (in a mental-cognitive sense), if we let that aim distract us from the individual reasons that we pursue our "faith." I, for instance, don't give a shit about "bringing down the entire System," except during my most altruistic moments. Most of the time, my desires tend towards the gentle expression of individual humor, freedom and liberty in the midst of a milieu that promotes none of those virtues. One of the things that I love about the Discordian mindset is that it is not necessarily contingent upon the proliferation of or struggle against any ideology or way of life, but is, instead, an adaptive mechanism to make other ideas more workable.

In that sense, I agree that there are some major steps forward we can make to proselytize the liberating powers of Thinking for Yourself, but I think that such an endeavor must be approached in a way in which it is not simply swallowed up by the System. For instance, the idea of using viral marketing to reach people is an effective method, but the effects are not necessarily long-lasting, except on those who are open to the Discordian ideas, either positively or negatively. Those who are ambivalent or unthoughtful about Discordian ideas will gloss over viral campaigns as easily as they do traditional advertisement campaigns. Furthermore, the Discordian viral tools will not be proliferated to an effective degree within the mainstream media, as other viral tools sometimes are (e.g. news reports about the popularity of LOLcats; the movie "Snakes on a Plane;" etc), meaning that any campaign created virally will most likely live and die virally, not being picked up by larger media networks talking about conspiracies or whatever. Conspiracies are sort of old hat in the Info Age.

Some (purely speculative) possibilities that I see for the proliferation of the Discordian idea would be the organization of a large-scale event - a parade, perhaps, or a giant carnival, or some other fun event that generally garners media attention - coupled with the use of up-to-the-moment news feeds such as Twitter to expand the public knowledge of such events. In my estimation, the greatest asset to any ideological expansion is the use of large-scale spectacle inflated by word-of-mouth. The coupling of one-to-one viral resources with a central event to garner news-worthy attention is a surefire way to create some buzzes and Twitters. Just look at how those crazy followers of Yeshua took off after a few of them got fed to lions . . .

Anyway, I must reiterate that you have written a great critique, and that my meta-critique is merely a specification of some of the preparations and precautions that should probably be taken if one is up to the task of expanding the scope of the Discordian "mission." Great job.