Quoth Spagulus:
This is a continuation of the Black Iron Prison v3 discussion which started in the fucking wikipedia (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=18815.msg626298#msg626298) thread.
:pax:
The story so far:
We were talking about wikipedia, and how the info about Discordia on there needs a lot of help... but there's not exactly a lot of good material to replace it with. Which led us to talking about the stuff we've made, and how we could get it cited properly.. and that led to talking about making our stuff better...
and then Nigel was like,
Quote from: NigelOne thing I would really like to see is a Golden Sphere of Possibility version of the BIP, to be published in the same volume. If authors would be willing, perhaps, to riff off their own pieces but make a "light and shiny" version, and then they could be published together back-to-back. I think it would beef the book up enough to justify a real ISBN-having version.
She later said that if she had a few hundred bucks, she'd open her own publishing company.
Quote from: nigelIt will probably cost me about $400 to get started, assuming ALL I am doing is acting as a gateway/financier to get the books published and available through Ingram. My original goal was to do it when all my debts were paid off, which would have been last month if Moxley had stuck around. At my current rate, they won't be paid off for six more months, but even so, that's not a terrible timeline, especially if we want to fatten up the BIP.
It would bring my heart much joy to see more Discordian works of literature by our little band of troublemakers published. So it would basically be a vanity press for Discordians... oh well! It would still be out there.
and then Ratatosk was all like
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 07:58:02 PM
I am concerned... almost every thread that could have degenerated into Drama and fighting... instead, seems to have churned out useful and thoughtful dialog.
WTF GONNA HAPPEN?!?!?! :asplode:
So... BIP and GSP, published back to back, with some kind of illustration in the middle...
------------------------------------------------
Original post:
I still want to rewrite my entires in the BIP. Replacing my pieces with one on Black Swans, and one on cognitive biases.
Quote from: Nigel on December 11, 2008, 06:16:39 PM
I kind of think that Wikipedia will catch up in due time, and we should ignore it and keep working on the projects that make US happy.
One thing I would really like to see is a Golden Sphere of Possibility version of the BIP, to be published in the same volume. If authors would be willing, perhaps, to riff off their own pieces but make a "light and shiny" version, and then they could be published together back-to-back. I think it would beef the book up enough to justify a real ISBN-having version.
You should go add a Wiki entry on Sombunal.
:wink:
I have an entry for a GSP stype story... in fact, I'd intended it for the BiP, but it might work well if the two are bound together. I'll dig it up and post it.
I would submit a GSP-type piece for a separate volume.
Philosophically, I disagree with having a BIP/GSP volume. Because it could seem to suggest that somehow the BIP itself was incomplete or lacking in some way.
Quote from: Nigel on December 11, 2008, 05:02:40 PM
Speaking of publication, IF thinks do pick up in the New Year and I have a spare few hundred dollars, I am going to register my press name with the state and buy a block of ISBNs, at which point I can set up a lightningsource account. I will publish any substantial Discordian books anyone wants published. Lightningsource is distributed through Ingrams, so all bookstores will have the ability to order from my press.
... assuming the economy picks up and I have a few spare hundred dollars.
How
many hundreds...?
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 05:22:33 PM
I still say we declare war on Wikipedia.
Should be fun...
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 06:18:49 PM
I still want to rewrite my entires in the BIP. Replacing my pieces with one on Black Swans, and one on cognitive biases.
Whether or not it goes into the BIP, I'd like to read them.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:25:50 PM
I would submit a GSP-type piece for a separate volume.
Philosophically, I disagree with having a BIP/GSP volume. Because it could seem to suggest that somehow the BIP itself was incomplete or lacking in some way.
It is.
*Points to sig*
Wow. I thought that link was broken.
Further down.
Quote from: LMNO on December 11, 2008, 06:43:36 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:25:50 PM
I would submit a GSP-type piece for a separate volume.
Philosophically, I disagree with having a BIP/GSP volume. Because it could seem to suggest that somehow the BIP itself was incomplete or lacking in some way.
It is.
I guess what I mean, it that it would seem to give in to that common complaint we've heard "It's too dark". Having a GSP right along with it would seem to, rightly or wrongly, validate that idea. Unless of course we somehow contsruct it so it is clear that it isn't validating that complaint.
OR
I'll just shut up now.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:25:50 PM
I would submit a GSP-type piece for a separate volume.
Philosophically, I disagree with having a BIP/GSP volume. Because it could seem to suggest that somehow the BIP itself was incomplete or lacking in some way.
Are you saying that the BIP is the first complete model of reality?! HOLY SHI! Stop the preses, we've found a menu that is the meal, a map that is the territory and a comment by RWHN that we can blow way the fuck out of proportion ;-) (please note tongue in cheek)
But, seriously, I think that the BIP and a companion volume isn't necessarily going to lessen the BIP. In fact, if we changed the style, it might expand/expound upon it. Peter Carroll publishes Liber Null and Psychonaut together, not because Liber Null isn't complete, but because Psychonaut is a series of essays etc about the implementation of the magical concepts in Liber Null.
So perhaps the BiP is the right tool for discussing the BiP, but the GSP (or other title) might well be the right tool for discussing implementations of the BiP, methods for Jailbreaking, stories about dealing with one's own BIP...
Or we could just keep them both pamphlet size and hope that people get into pamphlets then way they did in the 60's ;-)
I thought writing it validating the complaint?
How about a compromise? One BIP booklet, one GSP booklet, combine them together and have them as two complementary volumes. Read forward to back, its BIP to GSP. Read back to front, its GSP to BIP. The last/first pages should be the introductory essays for each concept.
Edit: we can have something on potentiality and Foucault's "concrete freedom" in the middle, since Foucault is a philosopher both of limits and of freedom from such limits.
Introductory for the opposing concept, perhaps?
And published mirrored, so each can be read right to left, but it's opposite is upside down?
Quote from: LMNO on December 11, 2008, 06:54:26 PM
Introductory for the opposing concept, perhaps?
And published mirrored, so each can be read right to left, but it's opposite is upside down?
THIS.
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 06:52:00 PM
I thought writing it validating the complaint?
How about a compromise? One BIP booklet, one GSP booklet, combine them together and have them as two complementary volumes. Read forward to back, its BIP to GSP. Read back to front, its GSP to BIP. The last/first pages should be the introductory essays for each concept.
Edit: we can have something on potentiality and Foucault's "concrete freedom" in the middle, since Foucault is a philosopher both of limits and of freedom from such limits.
I like this idea.
I remember that I had a whole series of novels as a kid that were two books in one... Basically the both started at opposite ends (and flipped) and came to the center. So you could read "The Black Stallion" then flip the book over and read "Toby Tyler". Something like that might be a great illustrative way to publish the GSP and BIP.
Brilliant thinking Cain!
EDIT: Ok, LMNO beat me to the punch!
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 06:50:32 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:25:50 PM
I would submit a GSP-type piece for a separate volume.
Philosophically, I disagree with having a BIP/GSP volume. Because it could seem to suggest that somehow the BIP itself was incomplete or lacking in some way.
Are you saying that the BIP is the first complete model of reality?! HOLY SHI! Stop the preses, we've found a menu that is the meal, a map that is the territory and a comment by RWHN that we can blow way the fuck out of proportion ;-) (please note tongue in cheek)
But, seriously, I think that the BIP and a companion volume isn't necessarily going to lessen the BIP. In fact, if we changed the style, it might expand/expound upon it. Peter Carroll publishes Liber Null and Psychonaut together, not because Liber Null isn't complete, but because Psychonaut is a series of essays etc about the implementation of the magical concepts in Liber Null.
So perhaps the BiP is the right tool for discussing the BiP, but the GSP (or other title) might well be the right tool for discussing implementations of the BiP, methods for Jailbreaking, stories about dealing with one's own BIP...
Or we could just keep them both pamphlet size and hope that people get into pamphlets then way they did in the 60's ;-)
Did you read the post right before yours where I clarified?
Maybe. Or produce half with the BIP at the "front" and half with the GSP at the "front" and one where it is mixed up, for the introduction at least.
Because turning the book upside down strikes me as kinda annoying. Though so is three editions of the same book...
Obviously I'm just one idiot voicing his opinion so have at it as you will.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:58:14 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 06:50:32 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:25:50 PM
I would submit a GSP-type piece for a separate volume.
Philosophically, I disagree with having a BIP/GSP volume. Because it could seem to suggest that somehow the BIP itself was incomplete or lacking in some way.
Are you saying that the BIP is the first complete model of reality?! HOLY SHI! Stop the preses, we've found a menu that is the meal, a map that is the territory and a comment by RWHN that we can blow way the fuck out of proportion ;-) (please note tongue in cheek)
But, seriously, I think that the BIP and a companion volume isn't necessarily going to lessen the BIP. In fact, if we changed the style, it might expand/expound upon it. Peter Carroll publishes Liber Null and Psychonaut together, not because Liber Null isn't complete, but because Psychonaut is a series of essays etc about the implementation of the magical concepts in Liber Null.
So perhaps the BiP is the right tool for discussing the BiP, but the GSP (or other title) might well be the right tool for discussing implementations of the BiP, methods for Jailbreaking, stories about dealing with one's own BIP...
Or we could just keep them both pamphlet size and hope that people get into pamphlets then way they did in the 60's ;-)
Did you read the post right before yours where I clarified?
Not until after I'd already made the tongue in cheek comment... and since it wasn't meant to be serious, I left it in.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 06:48:24 PM
I guess what I mean, it that it would seem to give in to that common complaint we've heard "It's too dark". Having a GSP right along with it would seem to, rightly or wrongly, validate that idea. Unless of course we somehow construct it so it is clear that it isn't validating that complaint.
IMO, if an author gets a lot of criticisms that their book seems too *... it might be a good idea to consider that it may, at least in perception of some of your audience, be too *. It seems that the author could ignore the criticism, because they feel it doesn't apply... or they could change the book, or they could publish something else to clarify/expound on the book. I think the third might be the best option in most cases, as it neither compromises the authors work, nor does it simply ignore the audience (an author that writes only for himself, is a diarist). Publishing them as a compendium would further work to nullify complaints (assuming that the companion usefully clarified the position).
Of course, in this specific discussion, my comments will likely appear biased. :wink:
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 06:57:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 06:52:00 PM
I thought writing it validating the complaint?
How about a compromise? One BIP booklet, one GSP booklet, combine them together and have them as two complementary volumes. Read forward to back, its BIP to GSP. Read back to front, its GSP to BIP. The last/first pages should be the introductory essays for each concept.
Edit: we can have something on potentiality and Foucault's "concrete freedom" in the middle, since Foucault is a philosopher both of limits and of freedom from such limits.
I like this idea.
I remember that I had a whole series of novels as a kid that were two books in one... Basically the both started at opposite ends (and flipped) and came to the center. So you could read "The Black Stallion" then flip the book over and read "Toby Tyler". Something like that might be a great illustrative way to publish the GSP and BIP.
Brilliant thinking Cain!
EDIT: Ok, LMNO beat me to the punch!
That's exactly the image I had. Some slimmer classics are published this way, and it's not annoying to read at all... both ends are the "front cover" to their respective books.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 07:06:11 PM
IMO, if an author gets a lot of criticisms that their book seems too *... it might be a good idea to consider that it may, at least in perception of some of your audience, be too *. It seems that the author could ignore the criticism, because they feel it doesn't apply... or they could change the book, or they could publish something else to clarify/expound on the book. I think the third might be the best option in most cases, as it neither compromises the authors work, nor does it simply ignore the audience (an author that writes only for himself, is a diarist). Publishing them as a compendium would further work to nullify complaints (assuming that the companion usefully clarified the position).
Of course, in this specific discussion, my comments will likely appear biased. :wink:
Well, like I said, I'm but one idiot with an opinion vs. all the others who were featured in the thing so obviously if the will of the majority is to do it they should do it. I would never claim the BIP was complete or perfect or anything. I guess I just have a stubbornly sentimental attachment to it. So take my two cents for what they're worth.
Quote from: Nigel on December 11, 2008, 07:10:24 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 06:57:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 06:52:00 PM
I thought writing it validating the complaint?
How about a compromise? One BIP booklet, one GSP booklet, combine them together and have them as two complementary volumes. Read forward to back, its BIP to GSP. Read back to front, its GSP to BIP. The last/first pages should be the introductory essays for each concept.
Edit: we can have something on potentiality and Foucault's "concrete freedom" in the middle, since Foucault is a philosopher both of limits and of freedom from such limits.
I like this idea.
I remember that I had a whole series of novels as a kid that were two books in one... Basically the both started at opposite ends (and flipped) and came to the center. So you could read "The Black Stallion" then flip the book over and read "Toby Tyler". Something like that might be a great illustrative way to publish the GSP and BIP.
Brilliant thinking Cain!
EDIT: Ok, LMNO beat me to the punch!
That's exactly the image I had. Some slimmer classics are published this way, and it's not annoying to read at all... both ends are the "front cover" to their respective books.
I would suggest the middle page(s) be done sideways then, to avoid looking like one end of the book or the other.
This actually sounds like a lot of fun.
"BIP!"'
"GSP!"
"Hold on, you two, you're both right!"
Quote from: LMNO on December 11, 2008, 07:15:26 PM
This actually sounds like a lot of fun.
"BIP!"'
"GSP!"
"Hold on, you two, you're both right!"
The middle could have, as Cain said, a sideways-oriented page or set of pages. I'm thinking that the exact-middle page should have a picture of someone blowing bubbles in a jail cell, as a sort of symbol to reconcile the BIP and the GSP.
Or maybe that's stupid and just the booze talking. I dunno.
Well I was thinking some of the Foucalt based stuff I have been researching. For Foucault, the diagram is a prison, of sorts, and the ontological freedom he espouses is a form of GSP. Though a graphic would not necessarily be amiss.
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 07:13:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 11, 2008, 07:10:24 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 06:57:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 06:52:00 PM
I thought writing it validating the complaint?
How about a compromise? One BIP booklet, one GSP booklet, combine them together and have them as two complementary volumes. Read forward to back, its BIP to GSP. Read back to front, its GSP to BIP. The last/first pages should be the introductory essays for each concept.
Edit: we can have something on potentiality and Foucault's "concrete freedom" in the middle, since Foucault is a philosopher both of limits and of freedom from such limits.
I like this idea.
I remember that I had a whole series of novels as a kid that were two books in one... Basically the both started at opposite ends (and flipped) and came to the center. So you could read "The Black Stallion" then flip the book over and read "Toby Tyler". Something like that might be a great illustrative way to publish the GSP and BIP.
Brilliant thinking Cain!
EDIT: Ok, LMNO beat me to the punch!
That's exactly the image I had. Some slimmer classics are published this way, and it's not annoying to read at all... both ends are the "front cover" to their respective books.
I would suggest the middle page(s) be done sideways then, to avoid looking like one end of the book or the other.
Yes, perhaps with some completely out of band content... maybe short notes on philosophers that cover similar ground (Foucault as you mentioned, Camus maybe... etc) if I were into symbolism, I'd call it the Pentagon in the center of the apple ;-) Not necessarily even 'Discordian' (except for the blowing bubbles in the prison cell bit... thats an awesome centerfold I think ;-)
Or a centerfold of Eris :eek: :eek:
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2008, 07:22:05 PM
Well I was thinking some of the Foucalt based stuff I have been researching. For Foucault, the diagram is a prison, of sorts, and the ontological freedom he espouses is a form of GSP. Though a graphic would not necessarily be amiss.
Well, fuck.
Looks like I have to spend the next few years fighting through Foucault texts.
Funnily enough, Camus and Foucault are quite compatible.
LMNO, I suggest you get some of his lecture texts. For example,
Security, Territory and Population: Lectures at the College de France, 1977-8In contrast to his books, we have such paragraphs as:
QuoteTHIS YEAR I WOULD like to begin studying something that I have called, somewhat vaguely, bio-power. By this I mean a number of phenomena that seem to me to be quite significant, namely, the set of mechanisms through which the basic biological features of the human species became the object of a political strategy, of a general strategy of power, or, in other words, how, starting from the eighteenth century, modern western societies took on board the fundamental biological fact
that human beings are a species. This is roughly what I have called bio-power. So, to begin with, I'd like to put forward a few proposals that should be understood as indications of choice or statements of intent, not as principles, rules, or theorems.
Crappy formatting only evident on transferring from pdf to forum.
Cheers, Cain.
I am concerned... almost every thread that could have degenerated into Drama and fighting... instead, seems to have churned out useful and thoughtful dialog.
WTF GONNA HAPPEN?!?!?! :asplode:
I would kind of like, if you are comfortable with it, avoiding REMOVING stuff from the BIP. ADDING is a great idea, but unless you absolutely hate your submission, a consideration is that when text is removed from a Scripture it frustrates later adherents to the religion, especially when they can find references to the removed text. In 50 years, will Discordians be totally annoyed because they can find occasional obscure references to bit of your work that appeared in the original BIP?
Just a thought.
Also, since I've already registered the business name and the website, next step will be procuring a block of ISBNs. Unfortunately, the fuckers raised the price A LOT since I last checked! Assholes! They were $249 for 10 a few months ago, now they're $400 for 10. :(
I'll set you up a link with some of his stuff, but to give you an idea of his general topics, from a man much smarter than me (http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/):
QuoteMuch angry twittering on torture. The internet left asks: Why will these democratic pols who prattle endlessly about the need to reconnect with the faithful not stand up and say that torturers shall not pass into heaven? In linking to the Digby post I linked above, Atrios says "there is some shit I will not eat." Were that it were true. I see a lot of "not another vote, not another cent" threats to Dems in Atrios' thread, but I harbor doubts. Come election day, the internalized choicelessness-as-destiny of the pathetic American left will impel them to the polling place, where they'll make their false choice for the party of acquiescence, thinking that perhaps a disempowered majority in one house of a disempowered congress will slow if not stop the Soveitization of American society. It won't, of course . . .
Foucault taught that as the monarch was the head of the body state in a literal sense that had largely passed away until the coronation of the Child-King, and as crime was conceived as injury to that body, thus was the spectacle of public torture both a literal and metaphorical act of mirrored vengeance carried out on the body of the condemned. Happy days are here again. We've come to understand that the stauncher supporters of the dauphin have conflated his person entirely with the entity of the United States. He, surely, is his own staunchest supporter. If rumors are true and he really did pace all around the oval office mouthing off about kicking Saddam's motherfucking ass up and down the Arab Street, then we shouldn't be surprised by his zealous advocacy of the necessity of torture: it's a literal extension of his ass-kicking power to those who would inflict harm upon his stately body. The king cannot punch every highwayman in the face, but his torturers can certainly act as the fists of his bodily state, or stately body.
While there's still much to-do about the necessary secrecy of the particular methods employed against our enemies, there's a gleeful publicity about the fact that something's making them scream in the back room. We should be clear in recognizing that secretism is a moral gambit through which our governors maintain their veneer of reluctance, necessary until we've reacculturated ourselves to torture as a legitimate tactic of the state not to elecit information, but to (take it away, Michel) discipline and punish, and moreover, to elecit confession. Remember that medieval law often required either multiple eyewitnesses to a crime or else a confession in order to convict: torture a man until he confesses, then execute him (or just tortue him some more) because he confesses. The current reflection of this is in the concurrent work to suspend or eliminate the provisions of habeus corpus, which is a step in a judicial process based on rules of evidence and a conception of physical, rather than spiritual, culpability.
But if anything is obvious about the new world of the Long War (is that still the going euphemism?), it's that we're quickly reverting to a new-old notion of the prisoner as a kind of spiritual transgressor, even as he (possibly) and we (certainly) inflict actual, physical harm. Consider that George W. Bush does not say of our prisoners at Guantanamo, "These are guilty men," but instead, "These are bad men." It still seems alien to us, but probably won't for long, that these qualitative assertions establish guilt even as proof of guilt must still be gained through confession, elicited through physical torture, which retroactively justifies the acts of torture while also establishing the State's right to cut the criminal, the invader, from its body. Many people have lately been pointing that if there is one thing we know about torture, it's that the tortured man tells his interrogator whatever it is his interrogator wants to hear.
QuoteObscene.
Three prisoners in our national oubliette-manqué hanged themselves:
QuoteMilitary officials were not releasing the names of the detainees, but said two were Saudi Arabian nationals and one was a Yemeni national. [Rear Admiral Harry] Harris described them as having close ties to terrorist organizations in the Middle East and said their suicides were "not an act of desperation but an act of asymmetric warfare against us."
We're now so fully terrified of the shadow of our national nemesis that an act of total surrender by our purported enemies must be repackaged as an attack. So terrified that the spokesmen of empire specifically reject the argument for desperation and embrace the super-villain theory, that even the prisoner's death by his own hand is a blow to the body of state. Où alliez-vous, Michel Foucault?
QuoteLehman goes on to lament North Korean missile-rattling (do missiles rattle? if so, are they a threat?) and China's plans to build a 600-ship navy, all of which sounds like a plea to quit fucking around with all this forward thinking and rebuild a vast conventional military, to do something or other, whatever it is. Such competing imperatives play well in Freedonia, D.C. These are the same people, by and large, who constantly regret Americans' deep-held distrust of their own institutions. Well, of course they distrust their institutions! For more than half-a-century now, the policy of their government has been to pat them on their collective head with one hand and utter soothing noises out of one side of its mouth, while pushing the air-raid siren button and whistling warnings with the other. Concurrently, it has erected a vast structure of secrets, first in order to keep the nuclear cat in the bag, then, once it became clear that that wasn't going to work, simply for the sake of keeping secrets with the sort of self-dissimulating absurdity that makes the ever-present shades of Franz Kafka and Michel Foucault grin with posthumous vindication of their eternal rightness about just-about everything. Americans aren't a particularly bright or involved people. They don't distrust their rulers for complex reasons of sociology or ideology. They distrust their rulers because their rulers are untrustworthy.
That sort of thing,
I would hope if there is yanking or pruning of other people's material that it comes up for some form of discussion.
I am talking about people, such as Cain, who want to remove/replace their own work in the book.
Quote from: Nigel on December 11, 2008, 08:16:09 PM
I am talking about people, such as Cain, who want to remove/replace their own work in the book.
I was more referring to LMNO's comment. But yeah, I would understand an author wanting to yank or alter their own work. I'm talking about Spag A saying we should yank Spag B's work.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 11, 2008, 08:17:06 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 11, 2008, 08:16:09 PM
I am talking about people, such as Cain, who want to remove/replace their own work in the book.
I was more referring to LMNO's comment. But yeah, I would understand an author wanting to yank or alter their own work. I'm talking about Spag A saying we should yank Spag B's work.
I couldn't agree with that kind of revising.
I say we scrap the whole thing, and slip a copy of Mother Goose between the covers.
Is Jack and Jill Kopyleft? :lulz:
This is a continuation of the Black Iron Prison v3 discussion which started in the fucking wikipedia (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=18815.msg626298#msg626298) thread.
:pax:
The story so far:
We were talking about wikipedia, and how the info about Discordia on there needs a lot of help... but there's not exactly a lot of good material to replace it with. Which led us to talking about the stuff we've made, and how we could get it cited properly.. and that led to talking about making our stuff better...
and then Nigel was like,
Quote from: NigelOne thing I would really like to see is a Golden Sphere of Possibility version of the BIP, to be published in the same volume. If authors would be willing, perhaps, to riff off their own pieces but make a "light and shiny" version, and then they could be published together back-to-back. I think it would beef the book up enough to justify a real ISBN-having version.
She later said that if she had a few hundred bucks, she'd open her own publishing company.
Quote from: nigelIt will probably cost me about $400 to get started, assuming ALL I am doing is acting as a gateway/financier to get the books published and available through Ingram. My original goal was to do it when all my debts were paid off, which would have been last month if Moxley had stuck around. At my current rate, they won't be paid off for six more months, but even so, that's not a terrible timeline, especially if we want to fatten up the BIP.
It would bring my heart much joy to see more Discordian works of literature by our little band of troublemakers published. So it would basically be a vanity press for Discordians... oh well! It would still be out there.
and then Ratatosk was all like
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 07:58:02 PM
I am concerned... almost every thread that could have degenerated into Drama and fighting... instead, seems to have churned out useful and thoughtful dialog.
WTF GONNA HAPPEN?!?!?! :asplode:
So... BIP and GSP, published back to back, with some kind of illustration in the middle...
Ok here is a draft of my "A Story In Five Parts". Initially I had thought of sticking it in the Great Googlie Mooglie Edition of the BiP (5 segments throughout it), but I think it might be better in the GSP. Please PLEASE critique, criticize, etc both content and form... If it sucks, please say that as well :)
A Story In Five Parts (Rough Draft)
Following two blasts from the siren, Bob woke up like he did every morning. He heard the other prisoners stirring in their cells and the loud metallic clunking sound as their guards opened the hall door and entered with trays of food. The routine was well known and comfortable, like a pair of old shoes. After breakfast and a tall latte, he wandered over to the corner of his cell where the walls were a strange beige and where he spent most of his day. Not that he actually accomplished much in this corner, usually he just sat there. Sometimes he would shuffle some papers or draw a few pictures, but this was just busy work that kept him from being terribly bored.
The siren sounded again and Bob's mouth began to salivate, "Lunchtime!" he said happily to no one in particular. The food was bland, lukewarm and the same every day, but it gave some break to sitting in the beige corner.
Later, the siren bleated again and the guard called out, as he did every evening, "Lights Out!" and the fillaments went dark. Bob crawled under the blankets and like every night since he could remember, fell asleep in his cell.
The siren let out five long "WHOOP" noises and Bob immediately woke up. The siren never made five noises in a row. Occasionally, when there were inspections it would be three times, but five? He looked around, the room was dark and still. No one else was awake. Bob laid back, assuming that the siren call had been in his head. Then once again, the siren called out: "Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!" and Bob was immediately awake again. This time someone was obviously standing near the back wall... messing with something.
"Excuse me, " Bob ventured, assuming that the person was a prison employee, "why are you in my cell?"
The man turned around and looked at him for a moment, "Cell? What the heck are you talking about?" He then refocused on his odd task of fiddling with the wall.
"Cell," Bob said, "my prison cell. You are in my prison cell and I would like to know why."
The fellow scratched his head, looked at Bob curiously and sighed. "Oh, sorry, I hadn't realized you were still in the Black Iron Prison." Noting the confused look on Bob's face, he sighed, walked over and sat on a stool, which Bob was sure hadn't been there a moment ago. The man leaned forward and studied Bob closely for a moment then said, "Well, look... you're not in a Prison, per se. You have never really been in a prison. This whole thing, the prison, the guards, the other inmates, the food and even that annoying siren, its all in your head, its your prison that you made out of every decision and experience that you've had in your life."
Bob, at this point, decided someone was trying to make a fool of him. He stood up and walked to the cell door. "If this is in my head," he said, "then I should be able to walk right through it, yes?" Saying this, Bob stepped into the door and smacked his head on the bars.He staggered back, shook his noggin and then looked at the man. "See," he said, "they are real bars and this is a real prison."
The man rolled his eyes, stood up and walked right through the wall. He looked back through the bars and smiled, " I said you weren't in a Prison per se, not that you weren't trapped. See, its your bars and your prison. You made it, you maintain it, you keep yourself inside it, doing the same thing, thinking the same thoughts, exploring the same concepts." He paused and looked at Bob slyly, "When was the last time you had a brand new thought? When was the last time you had a brand new experience? When was the last time you cut loose and did something that you have never done before?"
Bob was taken aback slightly, mostly because the stranger had walked through a solid wall, but also because he was suddenly very uncomfortable with how comfortable the cell actually felt. "Lookit", the man continued, "can you tell me what crime you committed that got you put behind bars? Can you tell me how long you're here for, or how long you've been here?"
Bob strained to recall the arrest, the trial, the sentencing, but there was nothing there. He tried to remember how long he had been here, but that too seemed so far distant in his memory, no valuable information was forthcoming.
"I don't understand" Bob said, his voice shaking a little, "If I'm not in prison, then where am I and why do I think I'm in jail?"
The man smiled, "Ah, now that's a good question. It betrays the potential for independant thought! First, as I said, you are in a 'prison' of sorts. You are in what some smart people call "The Black Iron Prison". The prison of your own reality, well your own interpretation of Reality anyway. You're not alone in this either. Almost everyone starts out here and most people never leave. Some people don't even see the prison walls and bars... they just putter around follwing the sirens, sitting in their little beige boxes and shuffling papers. They don't see that they're trapped, because they can't, or don't see ANYTHING outside of their own little area, not even the walls or bars. It's very hard to escape a prison, if you don't even know that its there."
------------------------------------------------------
Night in the prison had always been pitch black and fit only for dreaming. Now, Bob realized, he could see clearly, even without the lights. He thought about what the man had said. He certianly felt trapped, but maybe he was just losing his mind after years in prison. Though... what if this guy was right? What if he could escape this, (what did the guy call it?) "Black Iron Prison"."
"I'd like to get out", Bob said wistfully.
"There is no 'OUT'", the man shook his head smiling, "because you aren't really 'IN'."
As he spoke, Bob began to think that maybe Reality wasn't a prison after all, maybe it was simply an inescapable tarpit, holding everyone within its grasp, slowly dragging them further and further into the black abyss of death. The prison walls shifted, the bars were suddenly vines, the bricks faded into the trunks of trees and the floor, OH GODS, the floor had become a steaming, bubbling, stinking pool of thick tar; tar that had a strong hold on his feet, his ankles and to his horror, it was slowly sucking him down.
The man was standing on top of the tar, looking at him quizzically. "Well, I'm not sure I've seen anyone go from bad to worse, quite that quickly." he said with a smile.
"Help me, for God's Sake!" Bob screamed, "I'm being sucked in, I'll die!!"
"We all die, you dummy, you can't escape it, you can't stop it, so why worry about it?" He grinned, "Besides, the only thing sucking you down right now is, well, you."
Bob tried to clear his head as the tar touched his knees. He concentrated, "not a prison, not a tar pit... DAMNIT!" The tar had his knees now and the heat was beginning to make his balls sweat. "not a prison", he thought, "not a tar pit!" But what, what else could it be?
The man smiled and grabbed Bob's wrist. "Let me help you out where you need it. Come on, come with me," he said smiling at the poor schmuck.
In an instant, they found themselves in some sort of small room with lots of buttons and levers. "This is one of my favorites," the man said with pride. "This is my Yellow Submarine, its a lot like the Black Iron Prison, I can't go outside of it, I can't escape it while I'm here... but I can control where it goes, how it moves and what I can see." He pushed a button and a wall slid away to reveal a magnificant scene which Bob supposed was deep beneath the ocean. "In Reality," the Man said, "what you're looking at is deep under the seas of normal human consciousness. This is how I explore the hard to get to parts of my brain."
Bob was astounded, "But, if this, like my prison is just in your mind, why not go out there and explore freely?"
The man looked serious for a moment and tapped the window, "Out there, Bob, is Everything that Exists, Existed or will Exist... every frequency of light and sound, every smell, every taste, all of it at the same time. Out there, I would be crushed in an instant, the pressure alone would utterly destroy me. However, I can still explore a lot of it, one port window at a time, from the safety of my submarine."
Bob thought about this, the guy was still trapped, kind of, but this was at least a nicer prison than the one he had.
-----------------------------------------
"Of course," the man continued, "this isn't the only vehicle I have." He caressed the control panel of his little submarine. "She's just one of an infinite number of possible vehicles."
Bob, nodded, still concerned that he was, perhaps, insane. The man shrugged and moved his hand across Bob's field of vision. They were immediately somewhere else.
"This is my Silver Spaceship." The man looked quite proud as he said this, "it's one of my newest."
Bob walked over to the portal and peeked out. Planets zoomed by, stars, astroids and moons tumbled past him at a frigthful speed, so close, it was surely not real. "These planets have to be light years apart, what sort of nonsense is this?!" he exclaimed.
The man shook his head, "It's metaphor man, that's not real Outer Space. Out there, is the Outer Space of Possibility. See that planet over there?" Almost immediately, the ship changed course and hovered close to the surface of a beautiful forested planet, with pristine lakes and gentle rolling hills.
Bob gasped, as he caught sight of a... well it can't be a... "Is, err, is that a, a, um, a Unicorn?" Bob finally stammered.
"Of course," the man said, "what else would a white horse with a horn in the middle of its head be?"
"But, they don't exist." Bob said.
"Well, they exist on that planet in the Outer Space of Possibility. They may not exist anywhere else though, I don't know." he turned the ship and coasted toward a large planet, "That planet over there is full of Pookahs. I don't think they ever leave that planet, but sometimes, people claim to see them on Earth."
Bob was startled as a teapot floated by and he could read the small silver nameplate attached to the delicate china, "B. Russell".
---------------------------------------------
"Reality," the man continued, "exists. It just doesn't exist in the same sense that most people think."
Bob was far too stunned at this point to argue.
"See, we all have limitations. But, often, a lot of the limitations that we THINK we have, may be artificial. You thought that your prison of scheduled alarms, lattes and that beige corner were inescapable, didn't you?"
Bob nodded silently.
"Exactly. Those weren't real limitations, they were just the places that you stopped exploring what might be out there. It became comfortable and safe, predictable and stable, right?" He looked at poor Bob, who seemed about to explode under the complexity.
"So I'm free, but I'm not really free?" Bob finally asked. "I can pretend to get out of Prison, but NEVER ever really get OUT?"
The man paused and studied him, "Well yeah Bob, you can do several things. You can go back to your comfortable prison and shuffle papers, eat when the bell rings and behave like a Pavlovian pooch, or you can break free of that tiny corner of reality and live in a much bigger cell, maybe seeing every constraint, every limitation and everything that you cannot do, as bricks, morter and bars of a much bigger prison that you have some control over."
Bob smiled, "Well, a bigger cell is surely better."
The man grinned, "Yep, it is. But, thats not your only option." He paused and studied Bob, "What do you think about the trip so far?"
Bob grinned, "It's amazing, mindblowing, I can't believe how free I feel. Now that I know that I don't have to go back to that cell, back to those alarms and that crappy food. And at least I'll be in control of the decorations now. No more beige, ever again!"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Driving down a dirt road, the Muddy Brown Humvee bounced through pot holes and skidded across mudflats. Bob hung on to the "OSHI" bar for dear life and the man was laughing, mad as a hatter, behind the wheel.
"Wheehoo! Now this is the life, eh Bob?!" he shouted over the thudding sub-woofer and the roar of the engine.
Bob held on and didn't speak. It dawned on him that outside the window... Correction: outside the window, in between the huge splotches of mud, was some part of reality. "So, how's come the best I can do is a bigger cell, and you can go mudrunning?" he looked at the man, who stopped laughing for a moment.
"My friend, no one said that a bigger cell was the best you could do." the man waved his hand to indicate the Humvee, "this is a constraint, a container, a set of limits and controls. It a thing that prevents me from ever being 100% free." He paused and sighed, with thelong exhale, things went fuzzy and suddenly they were back in Bob's prison cell. Of coure, it wasn't the old cell, it was new and huge and furnished with the most interesting things.
"See Bob, we can be here, if this is where you want to be..." a flash and they were flying through Outer Space, "or here..." Bob looked out the window and saw a planet suddenly turn into a puffer fish, "or here, in my submarine."
Bob smiled as he suddenly got it. "You mean, the constraints are only a prison, if I see them as a prison?"
The man smiled, "Exactly! You see Bob, no matter where you think you are..." he reached toward Bob's forehead and pulled from the center of it a round glowing yellow ball of energy, "you are always and forever here, in the Golden Sphere of Possibility."
The sphere began to expand and grow both in size and intensity, surrounding Bob with brilliant walls of this amazing sphere expanding and expanding... all under his control, all following his command and his thoughts.
Somewhere outside of this beautiful and brilliant new place, he heard his hosts voice one last time, though this time it was at a higher pitch, an almost a female voice with a lilting laugh...
"Remeber Bob, You have built for yourselves Black Iron Prisons, but even so... I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free... in some sense."
I have an idea that might help with mining this forum for material. Could somebody create a mod for the board that allows "meta tagging" of any individual post, by an logged in member?
That way we could just tag shit as we go along or during any old thread expeditions and the tagcloud could, eventually, grow to a stage where finding a whole bunch of already written articles on a given theme is a piece of piss.
One of the disheartening things about writing for this board is that, even the best thing you've ever written, is gonna sink into obscurity within a couple of months. Be nice to think that some of my shit might resurface at some point in the future.
That's a good idea. I know VBulletin has that functionality...but obviously we don't want to pay through the nose for that software anyway. I would hope rigging up something like that on SMF would not be too hard.
BIPv3.0 should include our later ideas, like Shrapnel, et al.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 12, 2008, 11:02:07 AM
I have an idea that might help with mining this forum for material. Could somebody create a mod for the board that allows "meta tagging" of any individual post, by an logged in member?
Ahahahha project OMGASM is approximately 11 months ahead of you!
Use delicious.com. (formerly del.icio.us) Tag with "OMGASM, BIP3" and the GASM Feed will automatically list them
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/gasmfeed
likewise tag images on flickr with "OMGASM, BIP3" and it will automatically display them in that cute way that it does
Okay, take that and make the tags user definable. I'm thinking searching tags for "the machine" or "GSP" and being given a list of all the article-class posts which have those tags attributed to them. Articles would, of course, have numerous tags, collated from numerous members who all feel that something deserves a specific tag, perhaps with a weighting on the tag, which increases as more people attribute it to the piece. That way the results could be "tagranked" depending how many times a tag has been applied to one post, by different people.
I guess what I'm saying is that once you have a couple of thousand items collected under the headings "litgasm" and "omgasm" this is the next level of categorisation. It'd be quite a big database but an incredibly simple one. Unfortunately I don't know anything about interfacing with SMF so there's not much I can do, short of designing a table structure which would go along the lines of:
Table - PDTaglist
Fields..
TagID - Autonumber - primary key
PostID - Integer - (indexed) - Reference to post number
TagName - Text (indexed)
Weight - integer - number of times this tag has been added to this post
There, I'm done.
Spheres and Bars
From sanity to senility
since we climbed down out of the tree
We all are trapped in the B.I.P.
except for those that choose to see
A Golden Sphere of Possibility
It could be the Sphere is in our minds,
that what we seek is what we find
and the gold we hold is what we mined
From hopes and dreams and Hippie lines
To Build our Sphere of Possibility
Perhaps, in a somewhat different light
Sphere and Prison may both be right
Depending on our own inner sight
both models might bring us delight
It seems to me a possibility.
There might be little that we can do
We do seem trapped, that much is true
Which model you like seems up to you,
Prison Bars may be golden too
and snares are made of possibility
From sanity to senility
Since we climbed down out of the tree
we are stuck with what we think we see
But in the end, perhaps we are free
I mean, it is a possibility....
- Ratatosk
I support this idea. I'll toss up Ruts and Slopes (although that needs major revisions to stand on its own as an essay) and The White Labcoat Approach.
I'm working on a comic script that deals with the BIP; it's about half done, and then I'll need editor(s) and artist(s).
I think I've got one more good rant in me, about the joys of being a spectator; we'll see how that goes.
I'll see about retooling/adding BIP/Shrapnel/et al stuff.
Are we depositing in this thread?
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
I'll see about retooling/adding BIP/Shrapnel/et al stuff.
Are we depositing in this thread?
I tried... but no one commented on my stuff... so maybe its the wrong thread for content discussion...
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 15, 2008, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
I'll see about retooling/adding BIP/Shrapnel/et al stuff.
Are we depositing in this thread?
I tried... but no one commented on my stuff... so maybe its the wrong thread for content discussion...
I just noticed your stuff, and shall read, critique and comment upon it after my lunch break is over, when I can get paid to pretend like I'm working
The thing is,
All we have right now is the idea that "we" should produce a new version.
That is the first step.
But for the creative machine to make that version, we need a bit more Order. We need to briefly focus our analytical engine on our creative/production process and see if it's working.
I posit that any creative endeavor like this needs a champion (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/83/sgodin.html) - someone who will claim responsibility for making it happen.
Who is going to choose what goes in, what goes out? and who is going to lay it out?
Realistically, these are not actually group decisions, though the group has some influence on the final say. And the group will decide whether it's 'accepted' or not.
The BIPv2 was produced because we had received a ton of feedback and had a lot of ideas as to what we wanted to change (though many of us disagreed on specifics). Eventually I took it upon myself to add some pieces, remove some pieces, and juxtapose some graphics with the text. It took a ton of discussion and about a week of dilligent work to hammer out the PDF. In the end it was my decision to remove certain pieces and certain other elements, and I personally edited a few of the pieces without the author's specific permission. (such is the nature of work in the public domain. :-P) We could have niggled forever, but in the end it was a personal effort, not a group effort.
I suspect Ratatosk's piece didn't get feedback because no one has stepped up and taken the reigns. The project doesn't have enough direction yet to start deciding what's in and what's out.
This is exactly why we don't have a PDF called "lollercaust" despite discussing it for 2+ years. :p
On the other hand, 2 eds of Intermittens so far. And a 3rd on the horizon. Maybe we're better in short bursts.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 15, 2008, 05:20:24 PM
The thing is,
All we have right now is the idea that "we" should produce a new version.
That is the first step.
But for the creative machine to make that version, we need a bit more Order. We need to briefly focus our analytical engine on our creative/production process and see if it's working.
I posit that any creative endeavor like this needs a champion (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/83/sgodin.html) - someone who will claim responsibility for making it happen.
Who is going to choose what goes in, what goes out? and who is going to lay it out?
Realistically, these are not actually group decisions, though the group has some influence on the final say. And the group will decide whether it's 'accepted' or not.
The BIPv2 was produced because we had received a ton of feedback and had a lot of ideas as to what we wanted to change (though many of us disagreed on specifics). Eventually I took it upon myself to add some pieces, remove some pieces, and juxtapose some graphics with the text. It took a ton of discussion and about a week of dilligent work to hammer out the PDF. In the end it was my decision to remove certain pieces and certain other elements, and I personally edited a few of the pieces without the author's specific permission. (such is the nature of work in the public domain. :-P) We could have niggled forever, but in the end it was a personal effort, not a group effort.
I suspect Ratatosk's piece didn't get feedback because no one has stepped up and taken the reigns. The project doesn't have enough direction yet to start deciding what's in and what's out.
This is exactly why we don't have a PDF called "lollercaust" despite discussing it for 2+ years. :p
I'll volunteer to edit the GSP side of the publication, but I doubt that my editorial opinions would be appreciated on the BiP side, since my interpretation appears to be in the minority.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2008, 05:26:36 PM
On the other hand, 2 eds of Intermittens so far. And a 3rd on the horizon. Maybe we're better in short bursts.
I think so, yes. Also, Intermittens is designed for random editors to pick it up and champion an issue. Self-selection of champions is built into that project's process. It will last as long as there are editors willing to volunteer their time.
I would suggest that even though most of the material is already written, BIPv3 is a larger and more challenging project than an issue Intermittens because a lot of us have a stake in it.
Quote from: Crazy SquirrelI'll volunteer to edit the GSP side of the publication, but I doubt that my editorial opinions would be appreciated on the BiP side, since my interpretation appears to be in the minority.
cool! For your engine to work properly, you'll need to know how many pieces to collect. I'm guessing the GSP side of the book should be as long as the BIP version (that way they meet in the middle, yes?)
What differences do we see between the BIP and the GSP? [in terms of what needs to be said about either] IIRC, the original GSP essay was just the intro-to-the-BIP essay but with BIP replaced with GSP, yes? We can't do that for a whole book. :p So this raises some new problems--
if we producing a volume which contains 2 sub-books, we have to classify our essays as either BIP or GSP. ... like, in which book does Shrapnel go?
This 2-book symmetry also reifies and reenforces the "dark vs light" metaphor dichotomy.
Personally, I'm still not in 100% agreement that adding a GSP book to the back of the BIP adds much to the discourse as a whole. In fact, it seems to create a host of new problems.
Actually, the reason we don't have a "Lollercaust" is because we haven't written anything independently funny. Most of the funny resides in knowing who we are, and how we interact.
GSP was pretty much a glass-half-full rewrite of that BIP intro.
I think where there may be some difficulty is getting people to agree with what the "opposite" of the original BIP theme is.
For example, in BIP there were lots of pieces about TeeVee, cast in a less then stellar light of course. So do we want for the GSP, a piece that gives a glass-half-full look at TeeVee. Maybe something about Colbert or Stewart? That's just an example.
As far as Shrapnel, I think it could go in either one, frankly, it just depends on how you are using the Shrapnel meme in the writing. So for example, my latest essay I would categorize as a positive piece so I think that would work in the GSP thing.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 15, 2008, 05:36:16 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2008, 05:26:36 PM
On the other hand, 2 eds of Intermittens so far. And a 3rd on the horizon. Maybe we're better in short bursts.
I think so, yes. Also, Intermittens is designed for random editors to pick it up and champion an issue. Self-selection of champions is built into that project's process. It will last as long as there are editors willing to volunteer their time.
I would suggest that even though most of the material is already written, BIPv3 is a larger and more challenging project than an issue Intermittens because a lot of us have a stake in it.
Quote from: Crazy SquirrelI'll volunteer to edit the GSP side of the publication, but I doubt that my editorial opinions would be appreciated on the BiP side, since my interpretation appears to be in the minority.
cool! For your engine to work properly, you'll need to know how many pieces to collect. I'm guessing the GSP side of the book should be as long as the BIP version (that way they meet in the middle, yes?)
What differences do we see between the BIP and the GSP?
IIRC, the original GSP essay was just the intro-to-the-BIP essay but with BIP replaced with GSP, yes? We can't do that for a whole book. :p
and if we're into this idea of producing a volume which contains 2 sub-books, we have to classify some of our essays as one or the other... like, in which book does Shrapnel go?
This 2-book symmetry also reifies and reenforces the "dark vs light" metaphor dichotomy.
I like where this is going, but your last line sent a wee warning message through my RAW infested brain ;-)
It screams false dichotomy to me. Personally, I don't want this to appears as some Good/Bad or Light/Dark metaphor. I don't want to see Discordians 20 years from now fighting over which side of the book is right or best... It seems like it may lend itself to the same sort of Eristic/Aneristic Delusion that some Discordians appear to suffer from. I would like it if the format encouraged the reader to continue to bounce between the models. Perhaps the flip book/two volume sort of dichotomy would be adverse to such a model agnostic approach. ;-) Maybe we can do it with content, but if we could also do something with the format that forced the brain between models, we might have more success with an overall message that talks to the reader about their cell, about breaking out and about identifying recidivism.
Thoughts?
For example, what if we published BiP on Odd pages and then GSP on even ones, upside down. Or what if we published the top half of the page as one book and the bottom half as another?
Obviously the format has to be readable... but maybe there's something that would be readable and promote a more "and" rather than "or" message about the two models?
I'll take the BIP half, then. The BIP was the reason I eventually joined this forum, and I like the idea a lot. Also I see a lot of room for improvement.
Rat, I understand what you're saying about false duality, but I think having two different versions of essentially the same model would be helpful model-ly agnostic-ly. If nothing else, it makes the implicit assertion that the same container can be usefully viewed as a prison in one model and a sphere in another model. Throw in Shrapnel and that's a third metaphor.
Also, this
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 15, 2008, 05:51:53 PM
I don't want to see Discordians 20 years from now fighting
made me laugh.
ETA: Shrapnel is BIP. The GSP equivalent would be smelling lots of Flowers on the path of life.
Wait, so now we're rewriting BIP too? At this point would we maybe be better served by just coming up with an entirely new publication?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2008, 06:14:30 PM
Wait, so now we're rewriting BIP too? At this point would we maybe be better served by just coming up with an entirely new publication?
Did I misinterpret the 'v3' and jump the gun? I've been known to do that.
As far as I understood it, we're always rewriting BIP. Taking stuff out, adding new ideas, clarifying old ones.
I see nothing wrong with that.
We could ask Verb what he managed to collect for his attempted revision of the BIP: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=16788.0
But at some point isn't the BIP going to be the equivalent of Joan Rivers or Michael Jackson?
:lulz:
That may be the best argument for taking ideas that have grown out of the BIP and putting them in a separate publication with a different title I've yet seen.
I was thinking more like Doctor Who, but whatever.
Joah Rivers has a much higher horrormirth quotient.
Maybe that discussion is premature right now, as I think of it. Maybe it's more: Let's see what we have to throw into the thing, and then if we have enough for a NEW thing, we figure out what to call it.
The first part of my critique, of the first section which you wrote, Rat:
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 09:42:03 PM
Ok here is a draft of my "A Story In Five Parts". Initially I had thought of sticking it in the Great Googlie Mooglie Edition of the BiP (5 segments throughout it), but I think it might be better in the GSP. Please PLEASE critique, criticize, etc both content and form... If it sucks, please say that as well :)
A Story In Five Parts (Rough Draft)
Following two blasts from the siren, Bob woke up like he did every morning. He heard the other prisoners stirring in their cells and the loud metallic clunking sound as their guards opened the hall door and entered with trays of food. The routine was well known and comfortable, like a pair of old shoes. After breakfast and a tall latte, he wandered over to the corner of his cell where the walls were a strange beige and where he spent most of his day. Not that he actually accomplished much in this corner, usually he just sat there. Sometimes he would shuffle some papers or draw a few pictures, but this was just busy work that kept him from being terribly bored.
The siren sounded again and Bob's mouth began to salivate, "Lunchtime!" he said happily to no one in particular. The food was bland, lukewarm and the same every day, but it gave some break to sitting in the beige corner.
Later, the siren bleated again and the guard called out, as he did every evening, "Lights Out!" and the fillaments went dark. Bob crawled under the blankets and like every night since he could remember, fell asleep in his cell.
The siren let out five long "WHOOP" noises and Bob immediately woke up. The siren never made five noises in a row. Occasionally, when there were inspections it would be three times, but five? He looked around, the room was dark and still. No one else was awake. Bob laid back, assuming that the siren call had been in his head. Then once again, the siren called out: "Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!" and Bob was immediately awake again. This time someone was obviously standing near the back wall... messing with something.
"Excuse me, " Bob ventured, assuming that the person was a prison employee, "why are you in my cell?"
The man turned around and looked at him for a moment, "Cell? What the heck are you talking about?" He then refocused on his odd task of fiddling with the wall.
"Cell," Bob said, "my prison cell. You are in my prison cell and I would like to know why."
The fellow scratched his head, looked at Bob curiously and sighed. "Oh, sorry, I hadn't realized you were still in the Black Iron Prison." Noting the confused look on Bob's face, he sighed, walked over and sat on a stool, which Bob was sure hadn't been there a moment ago. The man leaned forward and studied Bob closely for a moment then said, "Well, look... you're not in a Prison, per se. You have never really been in a prison. This whole thing, the prison, the guards, the other inmates, the food and even that annoying siren, its all in your head, its your prison that you made out of every decision and experience that you've had in your life."
Bob, at this point, decided someone was trying to make a fool of him. He stood up and walked to the cell door. "If this is in my head," he said, "then I should be able to walk right through it, yes?" Saying this, Bob stepped into the door and smacked his head on the bars.He staggered back, shook his noggin and then looked at the man. "See," he said, "they are real bars and this is a real prison."
The man rolled his eyes, stood up and walked right through the wall. He looked back through the bars and smiled, " I said you weren't in a Prison per se, not that you weren't trapped. See, its your bars and your prison. You made it, you maintain it, you keep yourself inside it, doing the same thing, thinking the same thoughts, exploring the same concepts." He paused and looked at Bob slyly, "When was the last time you had a brand new thought? When was the last time you had a brand new experience? When was the last time you cut loose and did something that you have never done before?"
Bob was taken aback slightly, mostly because the stranger had walked through a solid wall, but also because he was suddenly very uncomfortable with how comfortable the cell actually felt. "Lookit", the man continued, "can you tell me what crime you committed that got you put behind bars? Can you tell me how long you're here for, or how long you've been here?"
Bob strained to recall the arrest, the trial, the sentencing, but there was nothing there. He tried to remember how long he had been here, but that too seemed so far distant in his memory, no valuable information was forthcoming.
"I don't understand" Bob said, his voice shaking a little, "If I'm not in prison, then where am I and why do I think I'm in jail?"
The man smiled, "Ah, now that's a good question. It betrays the potential for independant thought! First, as I said, you are in a 'prison' of sorts. You are in what some smart people call "The Black Iron Prison". The prison of your own reality, well your own interpretation of Reality anyway. You're not alone in this either. Almost everyone starts out here and most people never leave. Some people don't even see the prison walls and bars... they just putter around follwing the sirens, sitting in their little beige boxes and shuffling papers. They don't see that they're trapped, because they can't, or don't see ANYTHING outside of their own little area, not even the walls or bars. It's very hard to escape a prison, if you don't even know that its there."
------------------------------------------------------
This first section is pretty good, and makes a nice narrative out of the BIP metaphor. However, a few things make it lose some strength, namely:
1) A semi-shortness of description and scene-setting. I think narratives benefit the most from having very detailed physical descriptions woven into them whenever a new scene is created. In this case, a more detailed description of the cell, Bob, the mysterious person or Bob's routine would add a lot to the texture of the piece.
2) A few grammatical or rhythm oddities. For instance, in the fourth-to-last paragraph of this section, you have the mysterious man repeat the same question twice. When I have a bit more time I can go through and diagnose all of the oddities personally, but until then you should probably do a readthrough just to check for clarity.
One last thing, mainly stylistic: I noticed that you like to use a lot of commas to join together ideas and sentences (e.g. "Occasionally, when there were inspections it would be three times, but five?"; "Bob strained to recall the arrest, the trial, the sentencing, but there was nothing there."). Again this is just personal preference and experience, but I've always thought that narrative works, especially the exposition parts, benefit the most from shorter, punchier sentences. A revised version of that sentence might be, "Occasionally, when there were inspections it would be three times. But five?"; or "Bob strained to recall the arrest, the trial, the sentencing. There was nothing there."
As I said, minor stylistic comment, but I think it helps readers to connect to the narrative more.
I shall edit this post to add critiques as I read the other sections.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 09:42:03 PM
Night in the prison had always been pitch black and fit only for dreaming. Now, Bob realized, he could see clearly, even without the lights. He thought about what the man had said. He certianly felt trapped, but maybe he was just losing his mind after years in prison. Though... what if this guy was right? What if he could escape this, (what did the guy call it?) "Black Iron Prison"."
"I'd like to get out", Bob said wistfully.
"There is no 'OUT'", the man shook his head smiling, "because you aren't really 'IN'."
As he spoke, Bob began to think that maybe Reality wasn't a prison after all, maybe it was simply an inescapable tarpit, holding everyone within its grasp, slowly dragging them further and further into the black abyss of death. The prison walls shifted, the bars were suddenly vines, the bricks faded into the trunks of trees and the floor, OH GODS, the floor had become a steaming, bubbling, stinking pool of thick tar; tar that had a strong hold on his feet, his ankles and to his horror, it was slowly sucking him down.
The man was standing on top of the tar, looking at him quizzically. "Well, I'm not sure I've seen anyone go from bad to worse, quite that quickly." he said with a smile.
"Help me, for God's Sake!" Bob screamed, "I'm being sucked in, I'll die!!"
"We all die, you dummy, you can't escape it, you can't stop it, so why worry about it?" He grinned, "Besides, the only thing sucking you down right now is, well, you."
Bob tried to clear his head as the tar touched his knees. He concentrated, "not a prison, not a tar pit... DAMNIT!" The tar had his knees now and the heat was beginning to make his balls sweat. "not a prison", he thought, "not a tar pit!" But what, what else could it be?
The man smiled and grabbed Bob's wrist. "Let me help you out where you need it. Come on, come with me," he said smiling at the poor schmuck.
In an instant, they found themselves in some sort of small room with lots of buttons and levers. "This is one of my favorites," the man said with pride. "This is my Yellow Submarine, its a lot like the Black Iron Prison, I can't go outside of it, I can't escape it while I'm here... but I can control where it goes, how it moves and what I can see." He pushed a button and a wall slid away to reveal a magnificant scene which Bob supposed was deep beneath the ocean. "In Reality," the Man said, "what you're looking at is deep under the seas of normal human consciousness. This is how I explore the hard to get to parts of my brain."
Bob was astounded, "But, if this, like my prison is just in your mind, why not go out there and explore freely?"
The man looked serious for a moment and tapped the window, "Out there, Bob, is Everything that Exists, Existed or will Exist... every frequency of light and sound, every smell, every taste, all of it at the same time. Out there, I would be crushed in an instant, the pressure alone would utterly destroy me. However, I can still explore a lot of it, one port window at a time, from the safety of my submarine."
Bob thought about this, the guy was still trapped, kind of, but this was at least a nicer prison than the one he had.
-----------------------------------------
Same critique as for section I. Some new specifics:
1) I was surprised when the mysterious guy just started talking. I think you should add a physical description of what he is doing in this scene, just so there will be a figure to put the words to.
2) The mysterious guy's dialogue on the Yellow Submarine seems particularly long, and was hard to follow in one "mental breath."
More to come.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 09:42:03 PM
"Of course," the man continued, "this isn't the only vehicle I have." He caressed the control panel of his little submarine. "She's just one of an infinite number of possible vehicles."
Bob, nodded, still concerned that he was, perhaps, insane. The man shrugged and moved his hand across Bob's field of vision. They were immediately somewhere else.
"This is my Silver Spaceship." The man looked quite proud as he said this, "it's one of my newest."
Bob walked over to the portal and peeked out. Planets zoomed by, stars, astroids and moons tumbled past him at a frigthful speed, so close, it was surely not real. "These planets have to be light years apart, what sort of nonsense is this?!" he exclaimed.
The man shook his head, "It's metaphor man, that's not real Outer Space. Out there, is the Outer Space of Possibility. See that planet over there?" Almost immediately, the ship changed course and hovered close to the surface of a beautiful forested planet, with pristine lakes and gentle rolling hills.
Bob gasped, as he caught sight of a... well it can't be a... "Is, err, is that a, a, um, a Unicorn?" Bob finally stammered.
"Of course," the man said, "what else would a white horse with a horn in the middle of its head be?"
"But, they don't exist." Bob said.
"Well, they exist on that planet in the Outer Space of Possibility. They may not exist anywhere else though, I don't know." he turned the ship and coasted toward a large planet, "That planet over there is full of Pookahs. I don't think they ever leave that planet, but sometimes, people claim to see them on Earth."
Bob was startled as a teapot floated by and he could read the small silver nameplate attached to the delicate china, "B. Russell".
---------------------------------------------
I really like this whole scene. It reminds me of something by Douglas Adams, and is generally fun to read. Not much needs tightened up in this section, aside from, IMO, the exposition immediately preceding Bob inquiring about the unicorn.
More to come.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 09:42:03 PM
"Reality," the man continued, "exists. It just doesn't exist in the same sense that most people think."
Bob was far too stunned at this point to argue.
"See, we all have limitations. But, often, a lot of the limitations that we THINK we have, may be artificial. You thought that your prison of scheduled alarms, lattes and that beige corner were inescapable, didn't you?"
Bob nodded silently.
"Exactly. Those weren't real limitations, they were just the places that you stopped exploring what might be out there. It became comfortable and safe, predictable and stable, right?" He looked at poor Bob, who seemed about to explode under the complexity.
"So I'm free, but I'm not really free?" Bob finally asked. "I can pretend to get out of Prison, but NEVER ever really get OUT?"
The man paused and studied him, "Well yeah Bob, you can do several things. You can go back to your comfortable prison and shuffle papers, eat when the bell rings and behave like a Pavlovian pooch, or you can break free of that tiny corner of reality and live in a much bigger cell, maybe seeing every constraint, every limitation and everything that you cannot do, as bricks, morter and bars of a much bigger prison that you have some control over."
Bob smiled, "Well, a bigger cell is surely better."
The man grinned, "Yep, it is. But, thats not your only option." He paused and studied Bob, "What do you think about the trip so far?"
Bob grinned, "It's amazing, mindblowing, I can't believe how free I feel. Now that I know that I don't have to go back to that cell, back to those alarms and that crappy food. And at least I'll be in control of the decorations now. No more beige, ever again!"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I liked this entire section as-is. Unless I have some sort of editorial blind spot at the moment, I can't see anything that I'd change.
Last section to follow.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 11, 2008, 09:42:03 PM
Driving down a dirt road, the Muddy Brown Humvee bounced through pot holes and skidded across mudflats. Bob hung on to the "OSHI" bar for dear life and the man was laughing, mad as a hatter, behind the wheel.
"Wheehoo! Now this is the life, eh Bob?!" he shouted over the thudding sub-woofer and the roar of the engine.
Bob held on and didn't speak. It dawned on him that outside the window... Correction: outside the window, in between the huge splotches of mud, was some part of reality. "So, how's come the best I can do is a bigger cell, and you can go mudrunning?" he looked at the man, who stopped laughing for a moment.
"My friend, no one said that a bigger cell was the best you could do." the man waved his hand to indicate the Humvee, "this is a constraint, a container, a set of limits and controls. It a thing that prevents me from ever being 100% free." He paused and sighed, with thelong exhale, things went fuzzy and suddenly they were back in Bob's prison cell. Of coure, it wasn't the old cell, it was new and huge and furnished with the most interesting things.
"See Bob, we can be here, if this is where you want to be..." a flash and they were flying through Outer Space, "or here..." Bob looked out the window and saw a planet suddenly turn into a puffer fish, "or here, in my submarine."
Bob smiled as he suddenly got it. "You mean, the constraints are only a prison, if I see them as a prison?"
The man smiled, "Exactly! You see Bob, no matter where you think you are..." he reached toward Bob's forehead and pulled from the center of it a round glowing yellow ball of energy, "you are always and forever here, in the Golden Sphere of Possibility."
The sphere began to expand and grow both in size and intensity, surrounding Bob with brilliant walls of this amazing sphere expanding and expanding... all under his control, all following his command and his thoughts.
Somewhere outside of this beautiful and brilliant new place, he heard his hosts voice one last time, though this time it was at a higher pitch, an almost a female voice with a lilting laugh...
"Remeber Bob, You have built for yourselves Black Iron Prisons, but even so... I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free... in some sense."
I like this section a lot. Very nice ending.
There are a few oddities. Paragraph three, sentence two read a little choppy to me, paragraph four has the word "thelong" instead of "the long," and the penultimate paragraph has "an almost a" instead of just "an almost." Otherwise, quite good.
Overall, great read, Rat. Thanks for sharing! I hope this makes it into the BIP, or some future project stemming from it.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 15, 2008, 06:27:50 PM
Maybe that discussion is premature right now, as I think of it. Maybe it's more: Let's see what we have to throw into the thing, and then if we have enough for a NEW thing, we figure out what to call it.
My premature vote for a hypothetical new publication related to the BIP would be called "The Cell Key," or "The Key to the Door," or something along those lines.
I would love to be part of an updated BIP that addressed issues beyond identifying the prison, which is what I felt the BIP was mostly about. I'd like to see some material about what to do next, sort of like the section in the Wiki.
Another way to do the BIP/GSP split would be to have the GSP focused on providing ideas for solutions, with the BIP more on identifying the problem.
Or, you could tell the GSP twunts to get a life, write their own goddamn book, and stop trying to horn in on ours.
Quote from: Manta Obscura on December 15, 2008, 06:34:00 PM
The first part of my critique, of the first section which you wrote, Rat:
Thanks Manta!! This is precisely what I was looking for! New edit to follow :)
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 07:00:05 PM
Or, you could tell the GSP twunts to get a life, write their own goddamn book,
wasn't that the point of this thread?
the push to reconceptualize the BIP booklet hasn't been so that we can work in this great new metaphor,
it's to reframe the metaphor to address the people who focus on the darkness and negativity and hopelessness
is that a good use of energy?
At this moment, I'm of the opinion that we should start from the beginning and write a companion booklet to the BIP rather than a new edition.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 15, 2008, 07:07:28 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 07:00:05 PM
Or, you could tell the GSP twunts to get a life, write their own goddamn book,
wasn't that the point of this thread?
the push to reconceptualize the BIP booklet hasn't been so that we can work in this great new metaphor,
it's to reframe the metaphor to address the people who focus on the darkness and negativity and hopelessness
is that a good use of energy?
At this moment, I'm of the opinion that we should start from the beginning and write a companion booklet to the BIP rather than a new edition.
I agree... I had thought we were talking about a 'latest edit' of the BiP (with Cain's changes to his content etc) AND published with it a companion GSP which would have new stuff with a different twist.
I don't even think it should be positive vs negative....
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
Actually, the reason we don't have a "Lollercaust" is because we haven't written anything independently funny. Most of the funny resides in knowing who we are, and how we interact.
and puns.
And vocoders.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 15, 2008, 08:02:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
Actually, the reason we don't have a "Lollercaust" is because we haven't written anything independently funny. Most of the funny resides in knowing who we are, and how we interact.
and puns.
disagree: we have much LAIL contained here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15295.msg484962#msg484962 and here: http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Lollercaust
it's just that nobody's arranged it into a distributable document yet
Lollercaust can happen...I've seen a lot of build-up over the years. We just need another Manta-type dumpster diving expedition to uncover all the loll'ing that's been going on.
I think unfortunately there's alot of lollercaust that can't be forced...has to spontaneously happen.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m link=topic=18828.msg626647#msg626647 date=1229096179
Okay, take that and make the tags user definable. I'm thinking searching tags for "the machine" or "GSP" and being given a list of all the article-class posts which have those tags attributed to them. Articles would, of course, have numerous tags, collated from numerous members who all feel that something deserves a specific tag, perhaps with a weighting on the tag, which increases as more people attribute it to the piece. That way the results could be "tagranked" depending how many times a tag has been applied to one post, by different people.
I guess what I'm saying is that once you have a couple of thousand items collected under the headings "litgasm" and "omgasm" this is the next level of categorisation. It'd be quite a big database but an incredibly simple one. Unfortunately I don't know anything about interfacing with SMF so there's not much I can do, short of designing a table structure which would go along the lines of:
Table - PDTaglist
Fields..
TagID - Autonumber - primary key
PostID - Integer - (indexed) - Reference to post number
TagName - Text (indexed)
Weight - integer - number of times this tag has been added to this post
There, I'm done.
GO LOOK AT DELICIOUS AGAIN, AND EXPLAIN WHY DATASTRUCTURES NEED BE IMPLEMENTED/MODIFIED.
DELICIOUS IS A SITE WHERE YOU STORE LINKS, AS IN PERMALINKS TO FORUM POSTS. AN EXAMPLE IS THE LINK THAT POINTS BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL POST, AT THE TOP OF THE QUOTE SECTION.
I AM SHOUTING TO STOP YOU BEFORE YOU WASTE MORE ENERGY ON UNNEEDED PRELIMINARY WORK.
Fuck, I don't even use delicious. But its basic function is to TAG USING FUCKING ANY URL. Here's an example tag: blackironprison --> http://delicious.com/search?p=blackironprison&u=&chk=&context=&fr=del_icio_us&lc=0
Altering the forum software for tags would be like hosting a video on the PD server instead of Youtube: mostly unnecessary.
Quote from: yhnmzw on December 16, 2008, 08:56:31 PM
Altering the forum software for tags would be like hosting a video on the PD server instead of Youtube: mostly unnecessary.
Well, hosting on PD serv is good for things like the 1man1cup .gif.
Besides, youtube has crappy loading times, crappy video quality, and crappy irritating spam comments.
But, on the whole, yeah, youtube will do instead of filling up the PD server.
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on December 16, 2008, 09:06:26 PM
Well, hosting on PD serv is good for things like the 1man1cup .gif.
Besides, youtube has crappy loading times, crappy video quality, and crappy irritating spam comments.
But, on the whole, yeah, youtube will do instead of filling up the PD server.
Thus my use of "mostly". I'd worry more about the bandwidth cost of hosting videos. Free is free, remember.
I'm not sure how much of BIP/GSP I understand, but I'd submit that a two-headed or conjoined-twin text would require that both seem dead-serious. I'd recognize and avoid forcing/seeming to force the serious-humorous dichotomy to match up with BIP-GSP.
Also, I see an updated Hodgepodge transformer (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/59.php), or the five-fingered hand -><- as the visual component of the middle of the book, if we make a flipping version.
I know someone here can do the 3D programs. Cold, black iron and warm gold might comprise the transformer, seemingly randomly combined.
Quote from: yhnmzw on December 16, 2008, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on December 16, 2008, 09:06:26 PM
Well, hosting on PD serv is good for things like the 1man1cup .gif.
Besides, youtube has crappy loading times, crappy video quality, and crappy irritating spam comments.
But, on the whole, yeah, youtube will do instead of filling up the PD server.
Thus my use of "mostly". I'd worry more about the bandwidth cost of hosting videos. Free is free, remember.
Indeed.
Another sombunall fail by me.
Feel free to add to the tally, LMNO.
:sad:
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on December 16, 2008, 09:14:33 PM
Quote from: yhnmzw on December 16, 2008, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on December 16, 2008, 09:06:26 PM
Well, hosting on PD serv is good for things like the 1man1cup .gif.
Besides, youtube has crappy loading times, crappy video quality, and crappy irritating spam comments.
But, on the whole, yeah, youtube will do instead of filling up the PD server.
Thus my use of "mostly". I'd worry more about the bandwidth cost of hosting videos. Free is free, remember.
Indeed.
Another sombunall fail by me.
Feel free to add to the tally, LMNO.
:sad:
:lol:
See?
This is great. Political correctness is AWESOME!
Quote from: Cramulus on December 15, 2008, 08:16:02 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 15, 2008, 08:02:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
Actually, the reason we don't have a "Lollercaust" is because we haven't written anything independently funny. Most of the funny resides in knowing who we are, and how we interact.
and puns.
disagree: we have much LAIL contained here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15295.msg484962#msg484962 and here: http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Lollercaust
it's just that nobody's arranged it into a distributable document yet
I think I've voiced agreement with LMNO a while ago.
While the content you linked to is interesting and worthwhile reading, it isn't especially sidesplitting or humorous in the way the title "Lollercaust" would set you up to expect. Combined with that title, I find the writing a let down. If it were better contextualized I'd find it much more satisfying.
As it stands, I don't think we have much if any "Lollercaust" material. What we're calling Lollercaust is more a mishmash of oddball writing that is more thought provoking than comedic in its thrust.
I feel like I dropped the ball. I was working on a new edition of the BIP pamphlet in the summer, but then a load of shit made me insanely busy and I'm still riding on that same wave of stuff... I did intend to pick up where I left off once I have a little less to do (specifically, once I'm done with a kind of editing job I'm doing for the NGO I'm involved in, which will be a in a couple of months probably) - but it's more awesome with all you guys doing stuff and rethinking the pamphlet's structure and whatnot.
I would love to say I'll get involved soon but frankly there's little chance of me reading through this thread before the new year, even with the measly six pages it has so far... By the time I get to it... Meh.
Just wanted to say I'm sorry about dropping the ball. I wish I were more involved in these projects but I have IRL engagements which are currently more pressing to me. I don't need any comment on this, just couldn't sit silently by. :)
Quote from: Net on December 16, 2008, 10:48:30 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on December 15, 2008, 08:16:02 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 15, 2008, 08:02:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 15, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
Actually, the reason we don't have a "Lollercaust" is because we haven't written anything independently funny. Most of the funny resides in knowing who we are, and how we interact.
and puns.
disagree: we have much LAIL contained here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15295.msg484962#msg484962 and here: http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Lollercaust
it's just that nobody's arranged it into a distributable document yet
I think I've voiced agreement with LMNO a while ago.
While the content you linked to is interesting and worthwhile reading, it isn't especially sidesplitting or humorous in the way the title "Lollercaust" would set you up to expect. Combined with that title, I find the writing a let down. If it were better contextualized I'd find it much more satisfying.
As it stands, I don't think we have much if any "Lollercaust" material. What we're calling Lollercaust is more a mishmash of oddball writing that is more thought provoking than comedic in its thrust.
if you want to get lollercaust to really take off you need to do what all comedy writers have done though out the ages - steal remorselessly from existing material and tweak it to your own ends to make it relevant and discordian.
i would suggest a thread called
steal this joke where we post good jokes we have heard and then mess around with tweaking them "or stealing outright" and see what happens or if any good lollercaust material results.
Because I want to help, and time is brief
http://uploading.com/files/DB8ID8SL/ComedWrit.rar.html
Think you're funny? Writing successful comedy isn't just about having a gift for gags; you need to hone your talent and polish your humour to earn a living from making people laugh. If you want to write stand-up comedy, sketches, sitcoms or even a comic novel or film, How to be a Comedy Writer tells you all you need to know and more about the business, the structure of jokes and the nuts and bolts of a craft that can be learnt. Comedy guru Marc Blake has written for Spitting Image, Frankie Howerd and Craig Charles, and had his own TV show and BBC Radio 4 series Whining for England. The author of several humour books and comic novels including the bestselling Sunstroke, he has taught comedy writing across the UK for ten years.
It may not be very useful, but its a framework you can build from.
Also http://www.uploading.com/files/LBWYI71F/ComBibl.rar.html
Quote from: Jenne on December 16, 2008, 09:22:17 PM
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on December 16, 2008, 09:14:33 PM
Quote from: yhnmzw on December 16, 2008, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: The Borderline Simpleton on December 16, 2008, 09:06:26 PM
Well, hosting on PD serv is good for things like the 1man1cup .gif.
Besides, youtube has crappy loading times, crappy video quality, and crappy irritating spam comments.
But, on the whole, yeah, youtube will do instead of filling up the PD server.
Thus my use of "mostly". I'd worry more about the bandwidth cost of hosting videos. Free is free, remember.
Indeed.
Another sombunall fail by me.
Feel free to add to the tally, LMNO.
:sad:
:lol:
See?
This is great. Political correctness is AWESOME!
Everything is going according to plan. I don't even have to comment anymore!
Anyway, back on topic:
Ratatosk volunteered to edit a GSP booklet
and GA volunteered to edit a BIP booklet
I'd suggest that you two should go forward with it - make the book into what you think it should be. Conference with us ITT, but don't wait for "approval" to go forward.
rewriting Discordian lit is akin to a Jedi building his own lightsaber.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 17, 2008, 03:35:43 PM
rewriting Discordian lit is akin to a Jedi building his own lightsaber.
Appropriate metaphor, Cram. In the case of the GSP and the BIP, there's even a "light" side and a "dark" side, too.
"There is no side."
\
:roflcake:
I personally would like to stay away from "light vs dark" because I'm concerned it will reinforce the assumption that the BiP is Negative. Personally, I'd like the GSP to focus on the "possibilities" of looking at how we perceive our world. A Prison might be a great metaphor sometimes, Shrapnel sometimes, Ruts and Peaks and Slopes sometimes, Golden Spheres sometimes... and all of them might be useful to look at... all of them might usefully model some aspects of your life... Sometimes we're trapped by our decision, like in a prison, sometimes people have a lasting effect on us like Shrapnel, sometimes we're stuck in a Rut, sometimes we have a modicum of control and get to go explore.
If we play this Light vs Dark, I think we create an unnecessary Either/OR rather than an AND.
Thoughts?
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 17, 2008, 05:01:31 PM
I personally would like to stay away from "light vs dark" because I'm concerned it will reinforce the assumption that the BiP is Negative. Personally, I'd like the GSP to focus on the "possibilities" of looking at how we perceive our world. A Prison might be a great metaphor sometimes, Shrapnel sometimes, Ruts and Peaks and Slopes sometimes, Golden Spheres sometimes... and all of them might be useful to look at... all of them might usefully model some aspects of your life... Sometimes we're trapped by our decision, like in a prison, sometimes people have a lasting effect on us like Shrapnel, sometimes we're stuck in a Rut, sometimes we have a modicum of control and get to go explore.
If we play this Light vs Dark, I think we create an unnecessary Either/OR rather than an AND.
Thoughts?
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I was only referring to light and dark side stuff to play with connecting Star Wars memes to the issue.
For some reason, your post made me think that the future BIP/GSP/YSS/whatever project might work best as one of those old "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. Everyone starts on page one in prison, they turn the page and decide whether they want to continue with the BIP model (go to page 14), try out the GSP model (go to page 67), take on the Yellow Steel Submarine (cruise on over to page 101), or open up a can-o-whoopass in the Grayish Bouncy Wrestling Ring (triple suplex over to page 72).
In the end, every path leads to your character dying, just like in real Choose Your Own Adventure books.