saint aini's hoity toity thread (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12184.0) reminding us n00bs that you're nobody till somebody loves you on the internets has inspired me.
Doubtless many of you have read the Hitchhiker's Guide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchhiker%27s_guide_to_the_galaxy) series, and some may remember the Total Perspective Vortex, an ingenious torture device which completely annihilates a person's ego by showing them their place in the universe as a whole, from a god's-eye view.
I wonder, would that be such a terrible--or even painful--thing?
IMO being a nobody comes as a great relief--it makes the burden of things like productivity so much lighter, makes you free to create art.
The real tragedy of human life is not the transience of it, so much as the all too common inability to consider anything outside the confines of good days, bad days and assumptions.
Being no one means you are empowered to create meaning, because no one will read your whiny LiveJournal posts.
Thoughts?
I agree in that I have chosen to draw a very hard line between pursuit of personal power and pursuit of recognition. I think that finding a way to attain the one while avoiding the other is a very powerful thing. Anonymity is not only a blessing but a very useful tool.
I think anyone who's gotten any bad press whatsoever can attest to the fact it's better to NOT be notorious, let alone famous. Even being well-known for the RIGHT reasons (and those vary from person to person/situation to situation) is a hardship on many levels.
It should also be noted, lest anyone should mistakenly think otherwise, that Aini is a racist doofus.
:deadhorse:
Quote from: Cramulus on December 17, 2008, 05:04:44 PM
:deadhorse:
Quite true, but I wanted to make sure all new people were aware.
So, this is because I'm black?
are there any notorious racism debate threads that i could be pointed to for enlightenment?
Quote from: Iptuous on December 17, 2008, 10:51:46 PM
are there any notorious racism debate threads that i could be pointed to for enlightenment?
God I hope so
Around the age of about 22 I recalled less and less dreams waking each morning. So now, that comparitively microscopic consciousness that drifts about 16 hours each day doesn't carry over. My point of reference is no longer engaging strange reflections about why I decided to show up to grade school with no clothes on. If I were to recall such a dream tomorrow, I'd probably reflect more on, "Why am I reflecting on a dream where I showed up to grade school with no clothes on?"
Because the Total Experience Vortex doesn't exactly fit certain job descriptions. At some point my focus is shifted back to getting the job done. Creativity can be rythmic and keeps an effective beat when uninterrupted by some contemplative state of mind. The ego being a part of the whole, it's job performance goes up when there's a task at hand and no one else is allotted said task. Also, I'm pretty sure the universe would fall apart if we all continually revisited prepubescent neurosis' while awake. Or at the very least, we'd all choose to be exhibitionists.
Win win, so never mind.
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 17, 2008, 10:53:26 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 17, 2008, 10:51:46 PM
are there any notorious racism debate threads that i could be pointed to for enlightenment?
God I hope so
Enjoy:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14989.0
Quote from: Net on December 18, 2008, 12:35:28 AM
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 17, 2008, 10:53:26 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 17, 2008, 10:51:46 PM
are there any notorious racism debate threads that i could be pointed to for enlightenment?
God I hope so
Enjoy:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14989.0
Thanks.
It's interesting to see where ppl stand on that.
also. I take it Anton LaGay is the same person as Diseris in that thread?
Quote from: Net on December 18, 2008, 12:35:28 AM
Enjoy:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14989.0
Oustanding work.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 01:07:53 AM
I take it Anton LaGay is the same person as Diseris in that thread?
What, because we both have Bruce Campbell as our avatar? Bow before the might of the Bruce.
I agree with Anton. The TEV would be a truly calming experience for myself. It would be the final confirmation of my lack of universal importance.
Something that until using such a device is sadly easy to rationalise as paranoia or depression in this "X-Factor-You-Are-All-Beautiful-And-Everybody-Has-Star-Quality" bullshit culture that is vomited upon us by all the media we dont ask for, yet are force fed.
</rant>
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 18, 2008, 01:28:08 AM
What, because we both have Bruce Campbell as our avatar? Bow before the might of the Bruce.
Oh shit....
i didn't even notice there was a face attached to that chin!
man....if chins could kill!.....
Quote from: Cramulus on January 22, 2008, 04:44:03 AM
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/BEARS_RPISTS.jpg)
Hey.
i didn't know the Bearenstein Bears were black! i thought they were Jooish....
THE BEARENSTEIN BEARS ARE BLACK!!
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 02:26:47 AM
man....if chins could kill!.....
Then China would have conquered the world already.
Quote
Hey.
i didn't know the Bearenstein Bears were black! i thought they were Jooish....
Blackj00s
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 18, 2008, 01:28:08 AM
Quote from: Net on December 18, 2008, 12:35:28 AM
What, because we both have Bruce Campbell as our avatar? Bow before the might of the Bruce.
(http://www.honcho-sfx.com/Images/Products/Ash_black_crbr_cl.jpg)
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 18, 2008, 02:37:13 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 02:26:47 AM
man....if chins could kill!.....
Then China would have conquered the world already.
Dude, you know he's got a memoir out now titled that . (not the china part, though)
Ok. so i read the whole Aini blak raep thread, and am enlightened.....
i guess.... :/
is there any other thread where racism is discussed more philosophically rather than just focusing on one case? preferably where decorum is maintained...
Quote from: IptuousDude, you know he's got a memoir out now titled that . (not the china part, though)
Yep, and another called
Make Love the Bruce Campbell Way. Have you seen the Evil Dead trilogy?
QuoteOk. so i read the whole Aini blak raep thread, and am enlightened.....
i guess.... :/
That makes one of us.
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 18, 2008, 03:04:32 AM
Quote from: IptuousDude, you know he's got a memoir out now titled that . (not the china part, though)
Yep, and another called Make Love the Bruce Campbell Way. Have you seen the Evil Dead trilogy?
I havent seen the second one....
just evil dead and bruce campbell vs. army of darkness...
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 03:09:55 AM
I havent seen the second one....
just evil dead and bruce campbell vs. army of darkness...
The biggest Bruce Campbell fan I know says two is the best. I like three better, but two is way better than one. Why? Trees.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 03:09:55 AM
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 18, 2008, 03:04:32 AM
Quote from: IptuousDude, you know he's got a memoir out now titled that . (not the china part, though)
Yep, and another called Make Love the Bruce Campbell Way. Have you seen the Evil Dead trilogy?
I havent seen the second one....
just evil dead and bruce campbell vs. army of darkness...
You need to see brisco county junior too!... Or one of him million sci fi movies... he is a B movie God!
Bubba Ho-Tep, anyone?
Quote from: HOOPLA on December 18, 2008, 03:12:33 AM
Quote from: Antonymous on December 17, 2008, 10:35:43 PM
Quote from: HOOPLA on December 17, 2008, 10:34:16 PM
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 17, 2008, 10:19:19 PM
So, this is because I'm black?
No.
Are you sure?
Yes.
Only a racist would say that.
Quote from: Dr Goofy on December 18, 2008, 03:13:01 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 03:09:55 AM
Quote from: Anton LaGay on December 18, 2008, 03:04:32 AM
Quote from: IptuousDude, you know he's got a memoir out now titled that . (not the china part, though)
Yep, and another called Make Love the Bruce Campbell Way. Have you seen the Evil Dead trilogy?
I havent seen the second one....
just evil dead and bruce campbell vs. army of darkness...
You need to see brisco county junior too!... Or one of him million sci fi movies... he is a B movie God!
Jesus-fucking-cuntbubble!! Why has no one mentioned Bubba Hotep yet?
Bruce as geriatric Elvis. Astounding cinematic eyefluff.
Alien Apocalypse and he is in burn notice!
So many assumptions, so little time...
Quote from: Net on December 18, 2008, 06:11:32 AM
So many assumptions, so little time...
Wut u talkin about Willis?
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 03:01:31 AM
is there any other thread where racism is discussed more philosophically rather than just focusing on one case? preferably where decorum is maintained...
Not really. The general majority board consensus seems to be that racism = completely fucked up, and is generally the result of misplaced primate territorialism and xenophobia.
Also, no one seems to want to argue the other side of the case. Because it's completely fucked up.
Quote from: LMNO on December 18, 2008, 03:14:13 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 03:01:31 AM
is there any other thread where racism is discussed more philosophically rather than just focusing on one case? preferably where decorum is maintained...
Not really. The general majority board consensus seems to be that racism = completely fucked up, and is generally the result of misplaced primate territorialism and xenophobia.
Also, no one seems to want to argue the other side of the case. Because it's completely fucked up.
Nobody's willing to argue the merits of evil? even as devil's advocate for the sake of debate?
that's no fun...
Ok. i'll shoot.
territorialism and xenophobia has caused the segregation of cultures allowing for divergence of development. without this, we would not have the beautiful diversity of cultures.
also war and other shit slinging that arises from the above has given us some of the greatest works of art, and emotion in our history.
Do you need me to draw up a venn diagram for you?
(http://www.gliffy.com/pubdoc/1566498/L.jpg)
Now shut the fuck up, racist.
LMNO
-just getting in the proper mood.
good point.
i've seen some racism debates where people get stung by the fact that they are using different definitions.
what are we using as our definition of racism here?
you....um ... hippy?...no that sucks.
what epithet do racists use against non racists?
"niggerlover", usually.
:spittake:
That's overly specific. there's not a more general epithet they use?
anyways...
how are you defining racism?
I'm defining it as YOU, you insufferable cunt.
LMNO
-is kind of enjoying this. I can see why TGRR likes doing it so much.
:|
Going by that diagram, it's obvious. Specialized Xenophobes. Imagine other bubbles in there encapsulating gender, sexual orientation, age, Cubs fans, etc.,
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 06:49:45 PM
Going by that diagram, it's obvious. Specialized Xenophobes. Imagine other bubbles in there encapsulating gender, sexual orientation, age, Cubs fans, etc.,
So you're saying that a racist is simply someone who is afraid of other races?
I'm not sure I would put it that way. But I think one descriptor of a person who is racist would certainly be a person with an irrational fear/mistrust of a person of another race/ethnicity.
Ipt, I think your use of the word "fear" is a loaded term.
Quote from: LMNO on December 18, 2008, 07:10:18 PM
Ipt, I think your use of the word "fear" is a loaded term.
i assure you, it's completely hollow.
He's picking up on it from the -phobia of the Xenophobia in the diagram.
Yeah, true. But the literal intepretation of "fear" evokes emotions that don't exactly match the term "racist" to me.
Bluntly put, to me racism seems to be the belief that when there is a human being who is somehow different than you in a specific way (in this case, global geographic genetic characteristics), that makes them less than human.
Quote from: LMNO on December 18, 2008, 07:27:52 PM
Yeah, true. But the literal intepretation of "fear" evokes emotions that don't exactly match the term "racist" to me.
Bluntly put, to me racism seems to be the belief that when there is a human being who is somehow different than you in a specific way (in this case, global geographic genetic characteristics), that makes them less than human.
Ok...there we go.
see. some people are not so strict that they require feelings of supremacy in order to be racist. By your definition, if someone wants to simply live separately from members of another race, but they don't feel that they are necessarily better, or the others are lesser, then they are not actually racist. Others wouldn't agree...
that's the distinction that i was angling at, i guess...
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 07:35:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO on December 18, 2008, 07:27:52 PM
Yeah, true. But the literal intepretation of "fear" evokes emotions that don't exactly match the term "racist" to me.
Bluntly put, to me racism seems to be the belief that when there is a human being who is somehow different than you in a specific way (in this case, global geographic genetic characteristics), that makes them less than human.
Ok...there we go.
see. some people are not so strict that they require feelings of supremacy in order to be racist. By your definition, if someone wants to simply live separately from members of another race, but they don't feel that they are necessarily better, or the others are lesser, then they are not actually racist. Others wouldn't agree...
that's the distinction that i was angling at, i guess...
But if someone wants to live separately from members of another race, some kind of throught process must have occurred to come to that conclusion. So what kinds of thoughts would occur to lead one to wanting to live separate from another race that doesn't infer some kind of sub-par assessment of the race(s) in question?
"live separately from"...
Interesting sort of distinction.
A fucking "gotcha" question? Really?
"What's your definition of X?"
"X is made up of Ys."
"Really? But this X has a Z in it!"
But to your point, Why don't they want to live near another race? What are the core motivations?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:38:07 PM
But if someone wants to live separately from members of another race, some kind of throught process must have occurred to come to that conclusion. So what kinds of thoughts would occur to lead one to wanting to live separate from another race that doesn't infer some kind of sub-par assessment of the race(s) in question?
Well, perhaps it's simply aesthetics....
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 07:40:22 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:38:07 PM
But if someone wants to live separately from members of another race, some kind of throught process must have occurred to come to that conclusion. So what kinds of thoughts would occur to lead one to wanting to live separate from another race that doesn't infer some kind of sub-par assessment of the race(s) in question?
Well, perhaps it's simply aesthetics....
Ok, you're going to need to draw that one out a little more.
Quote from: LMNO on December 18, 2008, 07:39:14 PM
A fucking "gotcha" question? Really?
"What's your definition of X?"
"X is made up of Ys."
"Really? But this X has a Z in it!"
But to your point, Why don't they want to live near another race? What are the core motivations?
no. it's not a 'gotcha' question....
i just want to know what the working definition is here.
I not trying to imply that you 'admitted' some inconsitency or anything....
nobody's really made any assertions yet....
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 07:40:22 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:38:07 PM
But if someone wants to live separately from members of another race, some kind of throught process must have occurred to come to that conclusion. So what kinds of thoughts would occur to lead one to wanting to live separate from another race that doesn't infer some kind of sub-par assessment of the race(s) in question?
Well, perhaps it's simply aesthetics....
Aesthetics?
You mean to say that this hypothetical person doesn't believe that members of a certain race have the ability to be aesthetically pleasing?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 07:40:22 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:38:07 PM
But if someone wants to live separately from members of another race, some kind of throught process must have occurred to come to that conclusion. So what kinds of thoughts would occur to lead one to wanting to live separate from another race that doesn't infer some kind of sub-par assessment of the race(s) in question?
Well, perhaps it's simply aesthetics....
Ok, you're going to need to draw that one out a little more.
well.... some here have expressed that they prefer one race of person or another for romantic involvement. That's an aesthetic assessment....
some people simply want to live in a less diverse environment, i would guess. There is not necessarily feelings of superiority/inferiority associated with that.
Whether this is plausible or not is a side question.
Why don't we take the opposite, and I'll give you a more concrete example: My husband refuses to live in the Midwest, esp the countryside, because he wants to live among diversity. That living among just ONE subset of individuals is cloistering to him, and he feels like the can breathe better (his words, not mine) when he lives in and amongst a huge bevy of mixed races, identities and individuals.
Is he racist?
Flip that around and say the opposite--is that person racist?
Quote from: Jenne on December 18, 2008, 07:51:47 PM
Why don't we take the opposite, and I'll give you a more concrete example: My husband refuses to live in the Midwest, esp the countryside, because he wants to live among diversity. That living among just ONE subset of individuals is cloistering to him, and he feels like the can breathe better (his words, not mine) when he lives in and amongst a huge bevy of mixed races, identities and individuals.
Is he racist?
Flip that around and say the opposite--is that person racist?
good point...
he is making decisions based on race, but is presumably not of the mindset that one is superior to the other. Some people's definition of racism would apply to him though...
I don't know if that's racist, Jenne. I think that it's a desire for multiculturalism, in that as you present it, he wouldn't want to live in any homogeneous group, regardless of what that race was.
Ipt brings up an interesting point when he introduced sexual attraction. Run with it, Ipt.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 07:49:16 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
Quote from: Iptuous
Well, perhaps it's simply aesthetics....
Ok, you're going to need to draw that one out a little more.
well.... some here have expressed that they prefer one race of person or another for romantic involvement. That's an aesthetic assessment....
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
Quotesome people simply want to live in a less diverse environment, i would guess. There is not necessarily feelings of superiority/inferiority associated with that.
Whether this is plausible or not is a side question.
But what would motivate someone to want to live in a less diverse environment? Let's keep in mind there is a difference between living in a less diverse environment and
wanting to live in a less diverse environment. For example, I live in the whitest state in the U.S. And I do like living in Maine. But not because of its lack of diversity, in spite of.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
no?
what, precisely, is the difference?...
Quote from: LMNO on December 18, 2008, 07:56:26 PM
I don't know if that's racist, Jenne. I think that it's a desire for multiculturalism, in that as you present it, he wouldn't want to live in any homogeneous group, regardless of what that race was.
Ipt brings up an interesting point when he introduced sexual attraction. Run with it, Ipt.
Yup. That's what I was thinking, but Ippy's right...there are those that would see that as "reverse-discrimination."
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
no?
what, precisely, is the difference?...
I'm trying to stay on target with your scenarios. Your initial scenario was about someone wanting to live separately from members of other races. When I asked you why you said aesthetics. When I asked for follow up on the aesthetics angle you switched to a scenario of attraction.
So let's get back to the scenario on living separately from members of other races. So you said it was because of aesthetics. What is it about aesthetics that would cause a person to want to live separatel from members of other races?
i will let ippy argue aesthetics.
if i was to play devil's advocate i would give the argument of "simplicity" it far less challenging to live amongst your own kind, people you understand and identify with, than it is to be challenged with different cultures and views of the world, it is a strong part of human nature to seek out the comfortable predictable rut over the unknown
That goes back to the territorialism part, the pack mentality of staying in your tribe.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
no?
what, precisely, is the difference?...
I'm trying to stay on target with your scenarios. Your initial scenario was about someone wanting to live separately from members of other races. When I asked you why you said aesthetics. When I asked for follow up on the aesthetics angle you switched to a scenario of attraction.
So let's get back to the scenario on living separately from members of other races. So you said it was because of aesthetics. What is it about aesthetics that would cause a person to want to live separatel from members of other races?
I dunno, man.
maybe they watched a bunch of andy griffeth as a kid and want to live in maybury....
i don't think i really went off topic, though. what's the difference, precisely, in who you choose to be romantically involved with and who you associate with on a friendship level, at the level of aesthetics?
It sounds you saying that we are allowed to have superficial and arbitrary requirements on a person only if we intend on being intimate, no? Why is that?
A lot of Native Americans prefer to live with their tribe... they want to raise their children in a culture that fosters their values and traditions.
Non-tribals are not barred from living on reservations, though they often take some time to be accepted. They're not considered a threat, per se, but merely outsiders.
I don't know that I would consider such behavior "racist", but it's certainly tribalist... and almost everyone engages in it, to some degree. I'm not sure it's a bad thing, as it is how unique cultures are formed and communities sustained.
It becomes a problem is when outsiders are shunned or persecuted for not being part of the tribe, without being given a chance to assimilate. It becomes a racist problem when outsiders are shunned or persecuted on the basis of skin color or ethnic descent.
Y'know, when you take up the opposing side, saying "I dunno" is kind of weak.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
no?
what, precisely, is the difference?...
I'm trying to stay on target with your scenarios. Your initial scenario was about someone wanting to live separately from members of other races. When I asked you why you said aesthetics. When I asked for follow up on the aesthetics angle you switched to a scenario of attraction.
So let's get back to the scenario on living separately from members of other races. So you said it was because of aesthetics. What is it about aesthetics that would cause a person to want to live separatel from members of other races?
I dunno, man.
maybe they watched a bunch of andy griffeth as a kid and want to live in maybury....
i don't think i really went off topic, though. what's the difference, precisely, in who you choose to be romantically involved with and who you associate with on a friendship level, at the level of aesthetics?
It sounds you saying that we are allowed to have superficial and arbitrary requirements on a person only if we intend on being intimate, no? Why is that?
Because when it comes to what you let other people do with YOUR body, you get to make whatever arbitrary decisions you choose. I don't think poorly of redheads, but I've never met one I was attracted to... does that make me racist toward redheads? Or short fat people with bad breath? Are straight men sexist against men, because they don't want to sleep with them?
It's a completely different ball game when it comes to sexual intimacy. You are allowed to discriminate based on ANYTHING, or even nothing at all. All bets are off, there are no rules, the social norm ceases to apply, period.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
no?
what, precisely, is the difference?...
I'm trying to stay on target with your scenarios. Your initial scenario was about someone wanting to live separately from members of other races. When I asked you why you said aesthetics. When I asked for follow up on the aesthetics angle you switched to a scenario of attraction.
So let's get back to the scenario on living separately from members of other races. So you said it was because of aesthetics. What is it about aesthetics that would cause a person to want to live separatel from members of other races?
I dunno, man.
maybe they watched a bunch of andy griffeth as a kid and want to live in maybury....
i don't think i really went off topic, though. what's the difference, precisely, in who you choose to be romantically involved with and who you associate with on a friendship level, at the level of aesthetics?
It sounds you saying that we are allowed to have superficial and arbitrary requirements on a person only if we intend on being intimate, no? Why is that?
I'm trying to have a focused and deliberate discussion with you here and I think it is advantageous to take it in increments and not jump to different parts of the map. Saying things like "It sounds like you are saying" doesn't help either. If I'm going to say something,
I will say it. You haven't been able to give a legitimate reason for why someone would purposefully live separate from other races based on aesthetics. That's fine. And it would seem hard to come up with one that didn't, on its face, appear to be informed by some level of racism or prejudice.
Now, to the other question. I'm probably not a good person to judge the intimacy question as I've been romantically linked to people of different ethnic persuasions. I personally can't relate to using skin color as a pre-requisite for deciding whether or not to become romantically involved with a person. I wouldn't necessarily call someone who prefers to date only a person of their own color a racist. I would be curious, however, as to why they exclude all other races in their romantic pursuits.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM
Maybe, but that is focused on who a person is attracted to. You were talking about why people would want to live away from someone. Not quite the same thing.
no?
what, precisely, is the difference?...
I'm trying to stay on target with your scenarios. Your initial scenario was about someone wanting to live separately from members of other races. When I asked you why you said aesthetics. When I asked for follow up on the aesthetics angle you switched to a scenario of attraction.
So let's get back to the scenario on living separately from members of other races. So you said it was because of aesthetics. What is it about aesthetics that would cause a person to want to live separatel from members of other races?
I dunno, man.
maybe they watched a bunch of andy griffeth as a kid and want to live in maybury....
i don't think i really went off topic, though. what's the difference, precisely, in who you choose to be romantically involved with and who you associate with on a friendship level, at the level of aesthetics?
It sounds you saying that we are allowed to have superficial and arbitrary requirements on a person only if we intend on being intimate, no? Why is that?
I hope this doesn't lead to the "Gays chose to be gay" argument.
Sexual attraction is not a choice.
however deciding whether or not someone is going to be your friend based on appearance rather than content of character seems pretty dangerous.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PM
I'm trying to have a focused and deliberate discussion with you here and I think it is advantageous to take it in increments and not jump to different parts of the map. Saying things like "It sounds like you are saying" doesn't help either. If I'm going to say something, I will say it.
Fair enough. i appologize...
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PMYou haven't been able to give a legitimate reason for why someone would purposefully live separate from other races based on aesthetics. That's fine. And it would seem hard to come up with one that didn't, on its face, appear to be informed by some level of racism or prejudice.
Why do aesthetics have to be informed from a feeling of superiority?
can't they simply be arbitrary? perhaps some people just like uniformity...
advantageous to take it in increments and not jump to different parts of the map. Saying things like "It sounds like you are saying" doesn't help either. If I'm going to say something,
I will say it. [/quote]
Fair enough. i appologize...
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PMNow, to the other question. I'm probably not a good person to judge the intimacy question as I've been romantically linked to people of different ethnic persuasions. I personally can't relate to using skin color as a pre-requisite for deciding whether or not to become romantically involved with a person. I wouldn't necessarily call someone who prefers to date only a person of their own color a racist. I would be curious, however, as to why they exclude all other races in their romantic pursuits.
Why is there an inconsistency here? Why aren't you insisting that their preference here be informed by the same assumed racism?
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PM
Now, to the other question. I'm probably not a good person to judge the intimacy question as I've been romantically linked to people of different ethnic persuasions. I personally can't relate to using skin color as a pre-requisite for deciding whether or not to become romantically involved with a person. I wouldn't necessarily call someone who prefers to date only a person of their own color a racist. I would be curious, however, as to why they exclude all other races in their romantic pursuits.
I'm pretty much only attracted to white people. Not totally without exception; I did once meet an indian/black/white mix I was attracted to. Oh, and once a Mexican.
It might be purely coincidence that almost every person I've been attracted to has been white, and I'm not willing to rule out the possibility that I MIGHT meet someone of another race who I would feel that way for, but, sort of like with redheads, the odds seem really low. If I was filling out a personals ad and was supposed to check a #1 preference for race, I'd check "white", because checking any of the others would seem to reduce my odds of connecting with someone I was attracted to.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PMYou haven't been able to give a legitimate reason for why someone would purposefully live separate from other races based on aesthetics. That's fine. And it would seem hard to come up with one that didn't, on its face, appear to be informed by some level of racism or prejudice.
Why do aesthetics have to be informed from a feeling of superiority?
can't they simply be arbitrary? perhaps some people just like uniformity...
Uniformity would explain why someone likes to be with their own kind. But you earlier talked about someone deliberately choosing to live "away" from other races. That would suppose some thought process to conclude that they needed or wanted to be "away" from other races. "with", to me, means attraction. An attraction to be with a certain kind of people. "Away", to me, denotes a repulsion. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
So what would a completely arbitrary thought process based upon aesthetics look like? Not a thought process of why they want to be "with" someone, but a thought process of why they want to be "away" from a certain kind of person.
QuoteQuote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PMNow, to the other question. I'm probably not a good person to judge the intimacy question as I've been romantically linked to people of different ethnic persuasions. I personally can't relate to using skin color as a pre-requisite for deciding whether or not to become romantically involved with a person. I wouldn't necessarily call someone who prefers to date only a person of their own color a racist. I would be curious, however, as to why they exclude all other races in their romantic pursuits.
Why is there an inconsistency here? Why aren't you insisting that their preference here be informed by the same assumed racism?
"necessarily" is a key word. Thus the curiousity.
I think i understand what you're getting at, but it seems like mincing words when you are willing to delineate between groups of people and say that wanting to live exclusively with one group is qualitatively different than wanting to live away from all the others.
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 09:31:08 PM
I think i understand what you're getting at, but it seems like mincing words when you are willing to delineate between groups of people and say that wanting to live exclusively with one group is qualitatively different than wanting to live away from all the others.
Not really. I like living with the people in my current neighborhood because they are quiet and respect privacy. I like living away from the people in my old neighborhood because they were loud and nosy.
One group has an attractive quality while the other has a repulsive quality.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 18, 2008, 09:38:38 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 18, 2008, 09:31:08 PM
I think i understand what you're getting at, but it seems like mincing words when you are willing to delineate between groups of people and say that wanting to live exclusively with one group is qualitatively different than wanting to live away from all the others.
Not really. I like living with the people in my current neighborhood because they are quiet and respect privacy. I like living away from the people in my old neighborhood because they were loud and nosy.
One group has an attractive quality while the other has a repulsive quality.
ok. your delineation there is that you want to live with people that are quiet. that's it.
if someone wants to live exclusively with black people, then that likewise establishes who they
do and
don't want to live with....
aaaaaaaanyways....
So. the definition is that one is racist iff they believe that any one race is superior of inferior to another....
Now. What do you think of someone who does not hold that to be true, but does not seek to actively quell this thought pattern in others, or would even flip that switch if he had the magic power to do away with it? As i posited in the beginning, it is the differentiation and segregation of peoples that has led to the beautiful diversity of cultures in the first place, right? So the fighting and hating is all 'for the glory of discord-i-a!', no?
I will agree that racism is a throwback to tribalism.
There is safety in numbers, but it is harder to sustain a larger population.
Let's say there's a famine. Tribalism and racism give a convenient way of dividing people so that they can duke it out over available food instead of everyone starving.